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She agreed to cutting off the A and returning early without going to Auckland. I need to ask her whether she has rescheduled her trip and find the most direct (but not overly needy) way to ask. Any suggestions?

You wait until she shows up back in the US. I assume that she was able to book a flight to NZ on her own, right? If she doesn't come home until the original time, she couldn't be bothered to change her plans. Let her do this on her own. She knows how to dial the phone and call you if she's changed her plans. Or not. She should be the one doing the work. If you are doing all the work, you look needy and weak.

Hi anon789,

I see a lot in your thought processes that reminds me of myself. I sometimes think things through to the point where I reach what the business world calls 'analysis paralysis', which means coming up with so many angles, aspects, factors, and elements that I end up not knowing how to move forwards, and so I stay exactly where I am, doing nothing. Been there, seen it, done it. I am saying this gently, because I know what you are going through, but I have some questions I think you should consider before you become entirely stationary, and the situation becomes a case study rather than a real-time issue requiring action to change it:

What solid changes are you going to make to improve YOUR situation as a result of your wife's actions? It is clear that the current dynamic cannot continue, because it is not good for anyone involved, except the guy in New Zealand. And neither of us cares about his welfare, do we? I have put the word 'your' in capitals because you seem to be forgetting yourself and focusing on what may be 'wrong' with your wife. You are a doctor; healing others is a vocation, perhaps even an instinct. So I can see how you might default to forgetting about your own welfare and focusing on your wife and the various problems and maladies that you theorise she may have. Please, my friend, do not lose sight of yourself and your own welfare and mental and emotional well-being here. What I am saying here is not, "Physician, heal thyself", but, "Physician, protect yourself and prioritise your own needs and well-being when you are dealing with someone who puts their own needs ahead of yours and those of your children". If you don't protect yourself, and the children, from the potentially harmful actions of your wife, who will?

Are you in the process of transforming from man and wife to doctor and patient, or psychologist and client? From what you have written, it seems like a shift in your perception of the marital/relationship dynamic is happening, and that is not healthy for either of you. You are a healer, and that is a noble and wonderful thing, but your wife is primarily supposed to be exactly that; your wife. A position which carries with it a number of obligations and responsibilities to you. She is also a mother, which carries with it a set of obligations and responsibilities to her (and your) children. If you start to view your wife like a patient, or a victim, or a case study, are you giving her permission to renege on her obligations and responsibilities in life, and are you in danger of becoming an enabler by accepting her behaviour rather than challenging it?

When your wife flies back in, what will you have done to prevent the affair from continuing? She has not stopped it so far, and she even got on the plane after you told her you knew what she was doing. If she will not stop it, what will you do to stop it? You have already said that she has used your children's college fund to pay for her trips to New Zealand, so I would suggest you clip her wings financially for the foreseeable future. If she wants to fly to the other side of the world, let her get a job and pay for it herself, not make your children pay for it. Leaving aside what that says about her, you have to protect yourself and the kids by limiting her access to the family funds, or she will spend it all on herself. The psychology may be fascinating, but the consequences will be devastating if you continue to allow a selfish and irresponsible person access to the money that safeguards your children's future. It is abundantly clear that all your wife cares about is herself; stop worrying about her, and start making solid changes to protect yourself and your children from her dysfunctional, harmful behaviour.

It would be impossible to explain it all here, but I decided that the statement "I traveled to New Zealand because I was suicidal" is probably true.

So the man in New Zealand is a world-renowned psychiatrist who specialises in depression, and whose revolutionary technique is so successful that patients are prepared to sacrifice their family savings to fly in from all around the world for a course of treatment? I am not trying to be cruel or sarcastic in making that statement, I am trying to get to the root of why your wife, and by extension you (as you have chosen to believe her statement), believe this man in New Zealand has some kind of miraculous cure for suicidal tendencies? And if both of you do believe that, how many costly repeated courses of therapy are going to be necessary before your wife is cured?

Conversely, if the man in New Zealand is not a renowned psychiatrist with a proven track record of curing depression and suicidal thoughts, and turns out to be nothing more than an unprincipled turd who likes sticking it to married women, might it not be better to spend the children's college fund on visits to a real psychiatrist, much closer to home, whose treatment does not require the removal of his trousers? If the answer is yes, have you researched specialists and discussed your wife beginning treatment with them as soon as she

returns? If you believe your wife is suicidal or schizophrenic and depressive, she really needs to go straight from the airport to a psychiatrist's couch, or as soon thereafter as possible. She will not arrange this for herself, you will have to do it, but you can make her undergoing of treatment a condition of her return to the family home, because these New Zealand excursions have to stop now.

In general...my eventual decision...I would need to get into a deeper discussion with her at some point...

Can you see the inertia creeping into your thinking? That is what has allowed this situation to develop to the point that is has reached. Just as your wife has a lot of changes to make, I think it would be beneficial to you, and for you, to start thinking in terms of what you are going to do now to change things, rather than inventing a series of steps, caveats, and provisos that push any decision-making further and further away. I am so guilty of that myself, which is why I recognise it when I see it! My friend, we serve nobody's best interests when we prevaricate.

Your wife's repeated visits to New Zealand are not 'curing' her, they are draining your family's finances, and hurting you. So stop them, as of now, today, right this minute. If your wife was smoking crystal meth to escape her demons, would you fund it, and let her repeatedly go and see her dealer? No! Of course not. So why, when she asked if you wanted her to cancel her trip, did you not tell her to do that? She effectively said to you, "I'm going to see my crack dealer, unless you don't want me to go", and you let her go. Why? What possible benefit could either of you get from it?

I am not saying that to batter you, but because you are a decent, intelligent person who just needs to develop the confidence to assert yourself at times when a person or situation is getting out of hand. Standing back and allowing your wife's actions be governed by her irrational impulses or complexes is not doing her a favour; asserting yourself to prevent that from happening is not 'wrong', unreasonable, or tyrannical of you. Sometimes, that may take some 'tough love', particularly in the beginning. So please, as your wife has proven herself to be financially irresponsible, limit her funds, and tell her that if she so much as looks New Zealand up on a map, you are beginning divorce proceedings.

I think she is being passive aggressive because she wants to make me angry. If I become angry it would justify her continuing the A. I also think she is angry because she hates herself and transfers it to the kids and me. I'll say it again, the psychology here is fascinating. She simultaneously wants and does not want the kids. I'm really not completely sure if she has multiple personalities or is just messing around.

As I said earlier, is she your wife, or your patient? Does understanding a behaviour make its consequences any more acceptable or tolerable within the marriage? At what point do you cease to observe and take a more proactive role to challenge negative, destructive behaviour, and remove the factors that enable it (such as access to the children's college fund, or permission to fly to New Zealand)?

I am not saying this as a criticism, but have you asked yourself why you let the situation develop to this point? That is not in any way an excuse or justification for your wife's unacceptable behaviour. She is responsible for that, but what, in your thinking, prevented you from stepping in earlier and saying, "No. Stop. Enough."? You found a heap of evidence of travel to New Zealand, but observed rather than taking action.

I say that not as a criticism, but in the hope that you can review the way this situation began and grew, and identify points at which taking decisive action and challenging lies and negative behaviour could have halted the growth of the negative dynamic that currently exists. And by identifying those key points, I hope that you can learn to recognise when they start to happen in future, and when challenging and neutralising them is the right and appropriate thing to do. To become proactive, rather than reactive. It isn't easy, it is something I struggle with myself, but once we become aware of that tendency, we can take steps to combat it, and to spur ourselves into action.

Which brings me to my final point, which is that while your wife is still away, you should make a list of actions that you will take as soon as she returns. No prevaricating, no "I might at some point..", no, "There would have to be discussions before...". These are things that need to be done now.

1) A complete review of the family funds, and actions taken to curb your wife's unlimited access to them.

2) Your wife immediately enters treatment for suicidal depression and possible schizophrenia. She is the one who identified herself as suicidal, so she has no grounds to object to treatment for it.

3) A total and utter ban on any further trips to New Zealand, and close scrutiny on future travel plans in case the OM has plans to fly to the US.

4) You have already contacted a lawyer, and it has been suggested that you find a more aggressive one. Why not consult another, or even a couple more? When you reach a consensus of opinion from them about what your position is, go with the most aggressive one and have divorce papers drawn up. Show them to your wife, and explain to her that she has crossed a line, and that any further contact with the OM will result in the initiation of divorce. No ifs or buts, no qualifications, no woolly dithering. Being 'understanding' may end up being enabling, and that is not in anyone's best interests.

"I think she is being passive aggressive because she wants to make me angry"?

However you want to spin it......if she was pulling this BS with me I wouldn't just be angry I'd be PISSED!!!!

You told her you knew what was going on and she went anyway.

On top of that in order to pay for these trips to go see her lover (who's having his way with your wife which is helping her with her "suicidal thoughts") she's using all of the savings which was put away for her children????

Maybe, just maybe, it's about time you do get angry and start protecting your children from this selfish cheating woman.

2x4s accepted, you are all right. I am just trying to justify her actions. Here is my question, what is my next move? I am under the assumption she she is not with the OM now and I still have 4 days left. I have spoken to her and everything seemed okay, but as I am terrible with confrontation so I did not ask about her return.

I think that I need to ask her if she is coming back early as agreed and when she says “no”, I need to contact our friend she is staying with to let her know I am concerned. I would also let my WW know I am considering terminating our relationship if she goes to Auckland. Is the right tact at this point since I’ve mucked it all up thus far? Should I call or text to ask this, how should I word it?

Thanks for hanging with me, I am the world’s biggest wimp when it comes to my wife (give me a belligerent 250lb drunk any day). I think there is hope for me.

-Anon

You're not a wimp.

You're just someone who's in a horrible situation.

Moving forward your focus needs to be on getting out of infidelity and more importantly protecting your children.

Your wife didn't fly all the way to NZ to not be with OM.

The sooner you realize this the sooner you'll find your anger.

Anon,

No you don't ask her when she's returning, you don't do anything in the way of engaging her. Frankly I am surprised you're even engaging her in conversation while she's left you just after admitting that she's had an EA all while you know it was a PA as well. Her confession was in fact only a half truth....I know where you're coming from, you desperately want to believe her and recover the marriage you visualize in your head but I hate to be the bearer of bad news....your visualization and hers are not the same.....

She stated that she was going to avoid Auckland and return early....let her do the work, this is on her.

Do not communicate anything regarding the D to her. Make your decision and move on. The only thing I might do is to have a conversation with the friend (I understand that this is a "mutual" friend). Let her know that your wife has been "involved" and having an A with a man in her country and that she may want to watch for any potential self harm your wife might decide to do.

Frankly as others have said, this is a very common attempt to manipulate you by your wife. She wants her cake and eat it as well. That said, how you deal with this is on you whereas the A is totally on her....no negociations here.

I would also let my WW know I am considering terminating our relationship if she goes to Auckland.

'Considering' is a doormat's word -- reserved for cuckolds -- and I'm asking you right now to never use it again in the context of the decisions you're making about your relationship with your WW. You don't consider. You do.

Allow me to reword your statement for you:

Whether she goes to Auckland or not, when WW returns to the US (not before), and after she finds her own way home from the airport, I will tell her that I am moving forward with the divorce process. These will not just be words; I will have already taken active steps toward the divorce. I will already have drawn up a plan for separation, how we will handle the kids and finances, and where I/she may live. If it's an in-house separation for a while, I'll have it planned out where she and I will be sleeping and what our days will look like. If possible, I will have a plan for how she (not I) can live elsewhere while we wait for the final divorce hearing. I will also have a clear plan for when and how the divorce papers will be served and/or filed if I can't get it done before she returns.

When I finally see her again, I will not hug her or kiss her or tell her I love her or that I missed her. If she tries, I will say "no thank you." I will be stoic and friendly, but serious and firm. I will speak calmly and politely, but will not entertain any back and forth or engage in any discussion about my marriage or a reconciliation effort at this point. All of my words will be related to practical matters of divorce, finances, and children. If WW pushes on any other issues, I will find calm ways to let her know that I'm not talking about those things -- that, due to her actions, I am moving forward with my life and there is no longer a reason to discuss relationship issues with her. I will also make it clear that she is fully free to be with her AP, I won't stop her or even check up on her. If she breaks down, cries, pleads, or otherwise tries to break me from my 180 behaviors, I will find a healthy way to remove myself from that situation. I will not engage in any conversation of that sort -- not until I have fully processed and made a healthy plan to do so, when and if the time is ever right. That will be a decision that I will make for myself.

anon, it's leap-of-faith time.

You may still want to reconcile with WW. I get that. We all get it, we were all there at one point. Some of us were able to get to R, others weren't. But I *PROMISE* you this -- no one got to R while WW was in affair-mode.

You really want a chance at R? To kill this affair? To see your WW "wake up"? Might happen, might not. But equivocating and excusing and thinking you can "nice" your way out, or talk your way out, or *whatever* your way out of this situation will NOT work.

You need to take control now. You need to get fully on-board with the 180 and be ready to practice it like a total boss starting now and especially on the day she returns. If you're not sure where to start, get tons of advice here. You have 4 days to prepare yourself.

If you can do it -- really do the 180 with real (not for show) steps taken toward D -- I believe that within 24-48 hours you will begin to see changes in your WW.

To be clear: the 180 is not a "trick" to make your wife say and act the ways you want her to, and she may never, ever do that, and even if she does, it could be disingenuous or too little too late. The 180 is for you to be in control of yourself, to create and maintain clarity in your situation, and to move in a healthy direction for yourself and your kids.

But it can't be ignored that when a BS does the 180 really, really well, it often has the added benefit (?) of spurring an "awakening" in the WS. The WS will see that the BS is serious, that the marriage is actually ending, that there is no more riding out the A as long as they want because so far the BS has shown that he will still stick around (and take some/all of the blame!). WS will start to see a different reality than they anticipated, even subconsciously. At that point, if you still want to, you can make a good decision about R.

If none of that happens, you'll still be in control, making great decisions and acting in healthy ways. It's win-win.

Start now.

***

Have you read Walloped's first threads?

[This message edited by Okokok at 9:36 AM, March 8th (Thursday)]

It would be impossible to explain it all here, but I decided that the statement "I traveled to New Zealand because I was suicidal" is probably true

You know more of the details obviously but I think the statement could just as easily be a variation of what we see here all the time. Blaming the BS for the affair. She isn't blaming you so she is blaming her "suicidal" thoughts. This was she escapes the consequences for her actions.

I need to ask her whether she has rescheduled her trip and find the most direct (but not overly needy) way to ask. Any suggestions?

Can't you just say..."So, I'll be picking you up from the airport on March 12th right? Off of the (location of take off) flight. Or when will your flight get in I want make sure I can get the time off to pick you up? Or when should I expect you home??? There are a million ways to ask her the information without making it an accusation.

I have to say that I'm very worried about you and the kids. It almost appears that everyone bites their lips and walks on egg shells trying not to set her off. This isn't a healthy environment for you or the kids. I don't hear much anger from you for what she has done and is doing to your family.

Consider this:

If you were doing something that you knew hurt your family but felt sooooo good, how would you justify it? How would you make it OK to not give up? This is what your WW is doing and what so many people here see as bullpucky. There is a near never ending supply of these targets, so don't waste your time shooting them down. She will just spring another on you to chase down with logic and facts and use up your energy.

You do not deserve this. You are better than this. You are stronger than this. Your gut knows. Don't make excuses for her very wrong behavior. And don't let her either.

There is a 99% chance that she is with her boyfriend right now. That she went mysteriously dark with him is all of the confirmation that you need. She assuredly used her friends phone or whatever.

But my purpose in saying this isn’t to setup a ‘worst case’ scenario because you are in a worst case scenario. You uncovered an affair and her reaction was to leave. There is. O ambiguity to this.

You need to visit a lawyer/solicitor now. You are in infidelity and this is the ONLY way out. I’m not suggesting divorce, that decision for you is down the line, but that decision for her is going to be to NOW. That’s what filing does - it’s basically saying ‘feel free to have a boyfriend, but it is not going to be while married to me’.

The burden of proof as to what she did on vacation is 100% on her. There is literally nothing you can do. Your only assumption is that she is with him right now.

I concur with Sharkman as to whether of not she's seeing him. Logic predicates she's made the trip to NZ, no way is just not going to make contact.

Most likely she's picked up a temp. cell phone with NZ plan minutes.

Does she have cash on her? Then she can buy a ticket for him, or whatever works.

Since she's suppose to be single w/ a different name; she can't have him and the friend together.

Really a bitch when her friend and OM are calling her by a different name in the same room.

Easy for her to get a room, and meet him. I get the feeling if you had your way you would R.

No way with a WW in an ACTIVE A. Once the A has stopped, truly stopped, it's possible, but not right now.

Affairs thrive in secrecy and darkness. You have to play hardball. Call her friend. Two outcomes; she already knows and therefore, is supporting the affair. -or-

She has know clue and is being lied to by your WW. In that case what do you have to lose to expose to her. Let her know about OM, about her traveling under an assumed name who is SINGLE. Be prepared to send her factual evidence. If she doesn't know she going to be skeptical about what you're saying.

Remain calm during the conversation, and raising your voice or snide comments is going to lose ground with her/your NZ friend.

Also let her know your WW is/has threatened possible suicide; just in case she starts to indicate any potential signs.

Rather lean on the safe side and have professionals evaluate there if warranted.

As long as the A is going and you want to R, time is your enemy. If you are truly looking at D, then no reason to say anything.

Serve her when she gets home.

I agree with Okokok, Listen to his advice. You have to stop being so nice to her. If I was in your shoes I'm quite sure every single item of my WS's would be ripped up, thrown out or packed up. Kick her out and stop coddling her. She will never respect you if you don't do a hard 180.

Okay all very helpful advice. I presumed the A would occur when she booked the Auckland hotel room but you are right it could be now. If that’s the case I may never know.

I plan to call her tomorrow to ask if she is coming home early as she agreed to. I’d do it now but I haven’t slept more than 15 minutes at a time in the past 2 days because of work and stress.

I have written a script to roughly follow and want to see if I’m close to the right words. Yes, I need this level of preparation!

———————————————————————

BS: “You told me you would cut your trip short and return without going to Auckland. Have you changed your flights?”

WW: “No” or “I’m not going to”, or “I still haven’t gotten around to it”

BS: “I want to be in an honest committed relationship. If you want to be with him then I no longer desire to be in a relationship with you. You can have him.”

WW: “I’m not cheating on you”, “I’m not having an affair!” or anything else not remorseful

BS: “Do what you want. If you respected my feelings, you wouldn’t wouldn’t be going to Auckland. If you decide not to go to Auckland, please forward me all the updated flight information. Otherwise, we should start to plan co-parenting. I’ll send along an e-mail with some thoughts on how we could do that.”

WW: “Do you want me to come home early (not go to Auckland)”

BS: “This is your decision, I can’t make if for you. I just want to do what is best for the kids and me”

WW: “Are you divorcing me?”

BS: “I need to do what’s best for the kids and me. I can’t be with someone who doesn’t respect me”

——————————————————————————

Am I getting closer to the right tone, or still way off?

Thanks!

-Anon

Anything she says to you is just words.

Her actions are more important.

You already asked her not to go to NZ (after calling her out on this BS) and what did she do? She went anyway.

Who cares if she cuts her trip short. Again she didn't fly to NZ not to see this OM. She's been with him.

Anon, this is pretty good. You can't plan for every word that will be spoken. You've got the general attitude down pretty well. Really well, actually.

Be sure not to deviate from this approach. She could say something that, in the moment, will make you want to waver.

She could break down completely, cry a lot, and sob into the phone: "Baby, I'm so sorry! I've been so fucked up lately, how could I have done this? I'll be home as soon as I can, let's really talk when I get there. I miss you so much, I don't ever want to be without you again. Please don't leave me! I love you!"

How will you react to something like that? Are you ready for that?

Anon,

Your mind is right.

You do need to be *slightly* more firm though. ‘I am proceeding with taking the next steps to dissolving the marriage, you’re with your boyfriend now. You can stay with him, but it will not be as my wife’

This isn’t a Court of Law. The burden of proof is on her in this situation. If she can’t come up with simple assurance then it’s not even worth it.

Frankly the marriage was over when she got on the plane. It’s up to her to decide if she wants a new one with you. She will have a significant effort in front of her to rebuild your trust if she does.

I am also concerned about your sleep.

This is because you are spinning down a spiral of helplessness.

You need to take CONTROL. The absolute minute you take control (it will be hard) there will be an imaginary hand rail that appears. You will be steadied by it. It’s NOT a ladder to climb out, but it will allow you to breath. To let your emotions stop.

You are a victim of abuse. Break the cycle.

IMO you shouldn't have to ask if she's going to follow through on what she said, and then wade through her deflections, excuses, and omissions. You are too good for that.

I'd just phrase it as a statement, not a question. "I need to see your updated itinerary. Please forward it." If she says she doesn't have one, then move directly to the line about discussing co-parenting and everything else when she gets back. Let her sweat about what "everything else" means. Skip the unnecessary whining, misdirection, etc. I don't think it's a good idea to try to hash things out with her in NZ almost certainly with OM. It's ridiculous that she's even there, and you are above engaging in ridiculous conversations with someone who isn't respecting you.

So to recap:

State that you need to see her itinerary.

When she fails to produce it (I'd bet the farm), inform her that you will be discussing co-parenting and everything else when she returns.

When she grows angry/desperate at feeling the control slipping from her fingers, disengage and stop responding until she is in front of your face.

ETA: She will spin it around and put it on you. But you told her it was OK to go! But she hasn't seen OM (with no proof and no good explanation for why she still went anyway when her marriage was on the line)! But but but! Too bad, so sad. Simply stop hitting the ball back. She knows that you will feel the urge to defend yourself. Ridiculous! She is the one in the hot seat. She is the one who needs to defend her indefensible actions. You simple need to spare yourself and your children unnecessary disrespect, stress, and drama.

[This message edited by swmnbc at 8:57 PM, March 8th, 2018 (Thursday)]

I like the tone of your letter but the opening is all wrong. It should read:

Dear Fake Instagram Name:

“My balls are crossed hoping you are still planning on cutting your trip short and not going on to Auckland. I hope you don’t encounter difficulty getting back into the U.S. as a British citizen.” (why should she get to be the only passive/aggressive one).

Might give her something to ponder on the 12 hour flight home.