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after the initial look, it is very important how that person treats other people.

If they treat everyone nice, that makes a big difference.

If they know that everything is about them and no concern for others, that is a quick turnoff.

I have always been told men are more visual than women. True? i don't know. I think some men are more visual than some women and some women are more visual than some men. Depends on the person.

There is a reason that the male pop/rock stars attract young women to the point that the screaming can be heard for miles. Its not that they are good singers.

There is also a reason that men are caught looking at attractive women all the time-not all men but....

All I can say for women is this: I do not have a single female friend who ever married for money. I have no friend who would stay with a man they did not admire in other ways. My feeling is maybe 5% of women marry for money.

Now marry for looks? Most women do think their guy is good looking. But it's not uncommon for a woman to realize others don't think so and marry him anyway--for many other reasons. Guys become attractive when we love them; we don't love them because they're attractive. Celebrities are not a true comparison. That's pure fantasy, not mate selection.

But repeatedly I read and hear that men "fall in love with their eyes." To be honest, it is my understanding that this means many men will overlook any and all character flaws in a woman--become blinded--by their physical beauty. Character will not matter if she is BEAUTIFUL!

So then, of course men will cheat??? (Not all.) But they have to RESIST THE DRAW of beauty? And it's difficult?

No wonder men never, ever, EVER believe it when a woman says, "We're just friends" about our guy friends. And no wonder OW are so repeatedly duped! In all honesty, women cannot get it, just cannot understand, that we are, apparently, mostly important for our beauty and looks. To all men, all the time.

My heart feels so heavy with this truth.

I don't want my daughter to live in a world where this is the truth. We are so much more than beauty.

I forgot about this! (Or repressed it.)

The other day I came down to lunch and caught the tail end of a lunch conversation about some cheating wife. Someone said, "Is he gonna give her another chance?"

Another person said, "If she's hot, he will. No guy wants to give up a hot wife."

True????

Would a BH work harder to forgive a wayward wife just because she's hot?????

This topic/truth stabs me in my gut due to FOO. My mom always told me that my looks were my only important asset. She taught me three things:

"You can never be too skinny, too pretty, or too rich."

"You can fall in love with a rich man as easily as a poor man."

"You don't need a career; you need to marry a career."

I don't want her horrible truths to be . . . true.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 2:26 PM, March 11th (Sunday)]

It's all old wives tale sterotype. If I had a dime for every time I've heard a woman say "he's hot" I'd have a lot of money. They know he's hot because they look and make judgment on his looks......same as men. Think back in high school and college. I can't say I ever saw a good looking girl with an unattractive guy. She picked the guy as much as he picked her.

So then, of course men will cheat??? (Not all.) But they have to RESIST THE DRAW of beauty? And it's difficult?

And yet, the large volume of personal experiences posts to SI suggests both WH and WW seem to pick unattractive AP's at least as often as they pick attractive ones.

Men and women like good looking men and women. Both stare. Both comment. Based on casual day to day observations, good looking women rarely choose unattractive men.

I don't know, DIFM. I don't know women who say "he's hot" very often. Maybe it's just my group. The females I know (over my whole life) spend maybe 5% of their time discussing a guy's looks. They spend a huge amount of time discussing what he's like personality wise.

Here's the question:

A potential partner is unattractive but

Funny

Kind

Intelligent

Hard-working

Respected

And fun

Who is more likely to date or give a chance to this person, a guy or girl?

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 2:31 PM, March 11th (Sunday)]

I worked in a management position in the financial industry. Lots of front end female employees, young and old. Quite a few females at the management level, too. It was not unusual to hear lots of gushing about the hoty customer who comes in regularly and who got to serve him or the hot, young new guy account manager trainee. Or, I hired so and so because of how his pants fit. Very frequent.

[This message edited by steadychevy at 3:53 PM, March 11th (Sunday)]

Not true. My H was always into brains and smarts.

His APs were nothing to look at. But smart.

I don't know, DIFM. I don't know women who say "he's hot" very often. Maybe it's just my group. The females I know (over my whole life) spend maybe 5% of their time discussing a guy's looks. They spend a huge amount of time discussing what he's like personality wise.

I recently worked in a professional office environment with mostly workers in mid 20's to mid 30's. The women in general were happy to share their weekend hunt for guys, and discussions of who they met or saw that was hot. Really, all the time.

The reason these stereotypes are frustrating is because my story as a male is exactly the same as the quote I posted above from you. I had three brothers, many male friends, male cousins, I cannot recall particular conversations about hot looking women or any of the conversations that the stereotypes love to keep alive.

There are men that are like the stereo types and woman like the stereo types and there are woman that reflect men stereo types but the stereo types, in my view, accentuate the out of the norm, not the norm.

I think stereotypes are just like the news. You hear about terrible things over and over on the news. You would think that is the way things are as the norm. But its not. The terrible things are rare, relative to the norm. There are far examples of nothing bad happening. But that's no fun to discuss. Stereotypes of men and women keep themselves alive by being repeated.

I don't want her horrible truths to be . . . true.

Then don’t let them be. This isn’t a matter of unfallibility, rather a choice, your choice and perspective. If you want to believe her horrible ‘truths’ and your pre-determined answers to your questions, you will find truth to it all. That does not make it a standardized fact of all men. Change your outlook, you’ll see the men your seek...or don’t, either way the choice is yours.

It's been researched a lot. Men are attracted to youth and beauty, women are attracted to strength and stability.

It is absolutely true that men are visual. That's why so many more men watch porn than women. That's why men send women d** pics with OLD. I have been out with so many women who had a ton of stories of d** pics. I think it's because if one of us received a v** pic, it would turn us on. So those of us who have no clue how women function think doing the same will work for them.

When I was talking to my counselor the other day about an ex gf who rejected me, she wanted to know what I most remember about her. The first thing I talked about was her features. For example, I loved her nose. It was very upwards pointing and to me that's a very feminine quality. My counselor said something like "I forgot about the differences in gender." I suppose a woman would be dreaming about something else when brooding over an ex. Something like a sweet moment shared (of course we think of those too, but not first), or conversation or maybe something he did for them. Women please chime in here and let me know if I'm on the right track.

It isn't that looks are everything to us, they are just really important and we care what other people think. Somehow I think the beauty of our partner is a reflection on us; a validation of our own worth. I'll be honest, I've broken it off with a few who probably would have been a really good fit for me because I thought I could do better in the looks department.

You want the hard cold truth, that's it. I don't want this to be a total downer though. For me personally, I could go for someone who is cute but not gorgeous, as long as I've got the other things I need in a partner. She just needs to be playing in the same league as me, if that makes sense.

1. "Men fall in love with their eyes."

2. "A man will marry the best looking woman he can get."

1. no

2. no*

* I will say that if I were ever to suffer a head injury and think that getting married again is a good idea, I would probably weigh the characteristics/traits of the woman in question differently than I did last time.

All I can say is that I have been married twice now and NEITHER wife was in the top 10 of who I have dated looks wise.

My first wife turned out to be my definition of absolute evil and my second wife and I are going to celebrate 21 years married and 22 together.

There is a HUGE difference between saying men will notice a woman's looks first or that would make her stand out and saying that is what makes him fall in love or that is the most important characteristic he would look for in a wife. The latter is kind of insulting actually.

I dated women (some seriously) who were much better looking than my WW. (I would never have said this a few months ago [maybe not even thought it]... but f her) I fell in love with her for other reasons, and married her because I loved her, thought she would be a great mother and... someone I could always trust ( ).

But repeatedly I read and hear that men "fall in love with their eyes." To be honest, it is my understanding that this means many men will overlook any and all character flaws in a woman--become blinded--by their physical beauty. Character will not matter if she is BEAUTIFUL!

I think this is a relatively small number of men, but enough that the stereotype gets perpetuated. I actually think that many men do feel this is a "reflection" on them and deep down they are actually insecure and need a good looking prop beside themselves to feel better.

I'm personally turned off by guys that end up somehow revealing they want a "prop" or trophy wife. (Not saying all men with attractive wives are this way but a few are).

Now with all this said, my H very strangely fell in love with me at first site and yes it was about looks, not my brains even though I have one, he has since discovered. lol.

Even though H was instantly and strangely attracted to me and after 23 years of M, not a day goes by he does not talk about my "great ass" and how gorgeous I (still) am in his eyes, he also tells me that he figured I'd be snooty or "high maintenance" and he was quite sincere in his resolve to STEER CLEAR of that type of women. Once he got to know me and decided I was not that type of woman, he was hooked and hooked badly. He proposed after only one month.

Still, I also agree that most couples are somewhat evenly matched lookswise. I know many women (including me) find my H attractive. I will not deny that attractiveness played a part for me too. It is more like a "yes" (he'll do) or no, I can't really look at him for very long and this would be the first hurdle, but after that other things would be very important in determining whether I continued to date a guy. I think more mature men may also have the (yes, she meets criteria in the looks department) but she does not have to be the BEST he could possibly get; other criteria is more important to more secure men.

[This message edited by Bobbi_sue at 6:00 PM, March 11th (Sunday)]

Owning it now

Keep in mind that beauty is different through everyone's eyes. Although men are vusual, we do find different things attractive.

I also know many women who are 10's until they open their mouths.

There is also a big difference between what we date and who we marry.

My take on this is a little different I suppose.

On the one hand you seem to be frustrated about how men VALUE women or rather WHAT they value about them.

I have been "just friends" with so many gals of so very many types and shapes and sizes and mental abilities and lack thereof that it would likely surprise a lot of men and women, frankly.

I have only BEEN with ONE woman, however, and that is my WIFE. To befriend and value a woman for who she is and what she brings to the friendship table is one thing. To make a singular choice out of all the possible candidates out there imaginable and settle on just ONE person that you're gonna be waking up to and growing old with and sharing personal fluids with for decades...well...that's a much more personal and selective choice for some of us men at least.

I didn't undress women or lust after them for the most part throughout my life, as unusual as that may sound for a man to say. Much of the reason for that is that I am a Christian and have been for most all of my life. Consequently, I could be alone with an attractive girl or woman in her bedroom or even her in MINE until all odd hours of the NIGHT and not only not touch her or seethe with lust the whole time, but even be just as comfortable and at ease with her as if I were a GIRL.

I think I must be very rare in that regard, but many of my friends who were girls weren't my friends because of how pretty or sexy or attractive they were. They were my friends because we enjoyed one another's company for one reason or another. There was trust and honesty and being real with one another. I think that actually just having mutual RESPECT and regard for one another is most of what drew me to form friendships with them and they with me. And they knew I was "safe" too, which made me a bit unusual I think. They would share things that girls typically only share with other girls.

But when it came to choosing a life-partner to share my bed and body with...well...yeah I must admit that I was rather enthralled when the hottest babe I'd ever seen was actually interested in ME as well!! I even tried to scare her off the night we ended up starting our courtship because I didn't think I was worthy of her and I didn't want her to just freak out at how strange me and my beliefs were. After an hour or two monologue sermon of old fashioned values was preached by me to her over that long distance phone call (she lived 312 miles away), and she said she agreed with my values and the terms and conditions of courtship and marriage...well...I was completely SHOCKED and asked her dad on the phone for permission to court his daughter! He ALSO said YES, and after THAT, I knew I was happily "doomed" to be married to her!

Not your typical "pick-up line" I'm sure, but there's MY story anyhow....

[This message edited by Cephastion at 7:04 PM, March 11th (Sunday)]

""You can never be too skinny, too pretty, or too rich."

"You can fall in love with a rich man as easily as a poor man."

"You don't need a career; you need to marry a career.""

When you generalize 100% true. Though with

generalizations there will always be exceptions.

Skinny (meaning still healthy), pretty, rich

are not negatives. Though a woman does not have to

be a 10. The man has to think she is the hottest

he can get. Rich can be over rated. It never

mattered to me that the woman I would date or

marry had to be rich. As a man I want a wife not

a provider. Though her working to provide

financial assistance would be appreciated. No

pay check would be too small.

Though an man from a wealthy family may only

want a woman from a wealthy family.

Just as easy to fall in love with a rich man/woman

though I never knew or tried to find out if a

woman was rich before I would ask her out.

I am not against a woman having a career. When

a man asks a woman out he usually does not know

what work she does.

I do know of women that would not date a man

because his income was not high enough according

to their needs.

Attractiveness/Looks:

Is not that she has the face to be on magazine

covers, or a centerfold, or leading lady in

movies. Is the sum of all her parts. Not just

body parts.

There are a lot of attractive women that do not have a big

rack or long legs. How see conducts herself, the aura that she

gives off, her smile, attitude, posture, dress, makeup, hair, clothes.

Thus her attractiveness pulls us in. But as in

fishing, a flashy lure will get the fishes

attention, though if does not appear genuine the

fish will let it pass him.

When getting to know the woman her attractiveness

will not make up for her personal short comings.

So we will move on.

Oh, btw, something I've come to understand as a general truth is that some guys want an easy sexual fix kind of a gal for a temporary "relationship" (if it can even be called a relationship, that is). And the same guy will choose a VERY different type of woman for a keeper/marriage material.

With sexual exploits, the higher on the looks end of things she is, the better. But then again, such a guy is already being seriously shallow in his motives and mindset there, isn't he?

So even within an individual man, there can be differing criteria depending upon what his motives and end result he's really looking for are. Additionally, men actually do sometimes grow up and emotionally/mentally mature on some rare occasions as we age, so there again, the maturity and age of the man and what kind of hard or easy "miles" he's got on him by way of certain types of gals will likely play a major factor in how those "standards" are maintained or vary over the course of his particular life and perspective.

If a guy finds that most all bombshells end up being little Hitlers that self aggrandize and max out the credit cards and are impossible to keep happy or keep faithful, then they are very likely to aim for a more settled and sweet lady who likes him and what he has to offer, in spite of whether she's a knockout or not.

And of course guys tend to keep their efforts within their "league". Even if a guy THINKS that little Miss so-and-so is the hottest thing since fire was invented, he's not likely to risk the shame or rejection of going for the gold unless he's remotely confident that he's got a shot at her by having something to offer that's in her league or on her level. If he feels that HE'S not worthy to even bother, he usually won't, even if it's all just in his head.

[This message edited by Cephastion at 8:29 PM, March 11th (Sunday)]