SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Honestly, it would be really great to have some sort of poll on here about the number of "successfully" rehabilitated WSs and reconciled marriages. I'm sure the number is much higher here than in the general population (which is encouraging).

Also knowing the varying reasons for staying married and how popular they are. As well all know many people stay married for reasons other than "love" and "happiness".

I suspect financial reasons and kids are bigger reasons why people stay instead of "happiness".

Honestly, it would be really great to have some sort of poll on here about the number of "successfully" rehabilitated WSs and reconciled marriages.

I don't believe anyone is finished reconciling but I am in R and it feels very successful. I still have bad days but it has nothing to do with the day to day. I am still sad and still angry about what he did. I have been able to consider it the past-the old him. The new him/M is making me incredibly happy. He says he is very happy also.

Also knowing the varying reasons for staying married and how popular they are. As well all know many people stay married for reasons other than "love" and "happiness".

I am staying because I love my WH. I love who he has become. I love the life we have together now. I never fell out of love with WH after DDay but I didn't know if I could feel enough for him to stay married. I told myself and him that I would not make any choices until I felt ready to make a decision. I wavered a lot. I felt like I couldn't do it one day and then the next, I felt very confident. It took me about 2 years to feel all in. Until then, I had one foot sitting on the door frame, ready to bolt if I felt I needed to.

I suspect financial reasons and kids are bigger reasons why people stay instead of "happiness".

Not for me. Initially, I worried about finances a bit. In the end, I knew we would both be fine financially. We have savings, house worth a nice amount and are both employed. His pension would be split between us. We would be fine. I knew if I couldn't have the M that I wanted, that I could and would leave. Our son is an adult and while he would not be happy if we D'd, he would be fine. He has a life of his own now.

** posting as a member **

I tried to refrain from posting again on this thread. I really did, but this blows my mind:

The facts are very few people do actually change. How many criminals are repeat offenders? From some things I've read 68% re-offend within 3 years and 77% after 5 years.

That's a ridiculous analogy.

If you do financial analysis the same way you've gone about reconciliation after infidelity statistics ... but I'm sure you don't.

You are continuing to let your emotions rule your posting.

Take a look at Help for Therapists (and Their Clients), downloadable for free at dearpeggy.com (citation approved by mods). And somewhere in NOT "just Friends", Glass says, in essence, that 80% of the couples she treated who said they want to R actually did R.

There's no point in polling SI members, since we come and go. Besides, you seem to have taken on the role of M judge, so you can continue to skew responses any way you want to.

There are no definitive infidelity statistics that can be extrapolated to general populations. The best we have is probably the General Social Survey, which is interview-based. It depends on people admitting that they cheated ... and admissions and denials are taken at face value, so who knows how many people lied to the interviewer?

Believe me, the sooner you stop hoping that statistics and over-generalizations will heal you, the sooner you’ll heal.

I feel R is possible with a remorseful spouse and a BS who is willing to give the gift of trying to R and both spouses are trying to create a new marriage.

Reconciliation, by definition, cannot be made with an unremorseful spouse or the spouses not working together. A marriage is made of two people.

On the other hand, if the WS is not remorseful, and is not working fully toward R and is still cheating, reconciliation is not occurring.

I feel R is possible with a remorseful spouse and a BS who is willing to give the gift of trying to R and both spouses are trying to create a new marriage.

Reconciliation, by definition, cannot be made with an unremorseful spouse or the spouses not working together. A marriage is made of two people.

On the other hand, if the WS is not remorseful, and is not working fully toward R and is still cheating, reconciliation is not occurring.

You've generalized, but your generalizations both make sense and have a lot of anecdotal evidence to back them up.

Statistical arguments, however, fly in the face of accepted statistical science, since no infidelity statistics meet the accepted standards of the field of statistics.

I personally reframe the guideline from 'generalization' to 'over-generalization'. I class statistical arguments (and any use of 'all', none', 'most', 'very few', etc. is included) as over-generalizations and violations of the SI guideline.

I know the pain of being betrayed. I know the desire to lash out too well.

And I would bet everything I own and everything I can borrow that focusing on healing one's own pain is at least one part of the fastest and cleanest way out of infidelity.

IDK ... now that I reread this for the umpteenth time, I fear this can be seen as lashing out. My argument is with your idea, skins, not with you.

You have apparently made a decision to split. Believe me, I trust your judgment on this, and you have my full support for your decision.

Just don't give me any statistical argument to support it.

[This message edited by sisoon at 12:18 PM, March 22nd (Thursday)]

I'm here because of love and happiness! totally!

T/J @hopefulmother, thank you so much for your kind words and letting me know that I helped you. It makes me happy to know that I have helped at least one person here at SI and that what I have gone through and learned can be passed on in a positive way. You can't know what a lift your words have given me, hopefulmother, and I sincerely thank you. end T/J

eta: to fix word

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 12:50 PM, March 22nd (Thursday)]

I suspect financial reasons and kids are bigger reasons why people stay instead of "happiness".

When dday occurred, I earned more than my WH, and the kid was an adult with his own family. Only time will tell whether the changes in my WH are real.

Day after day I read more stories of BS's struggling with reality, having their entire world view blown up, having their future drastically changed forever and not knowing what to do.

I get really discouraged reading all of these heartbreaking stories. So many innocent lives shattered by selfish cheaters. This is where my frustration lies right now. After being in emotional hell for the past year I want to help people escape/avoid my fate.

This is a battle cry! We can rise up and overcome the fucked up shit our spouses have done/continue to do to us. We can take back the power in the relationship and let them wallow in the pile of shit they created. We don't have to be treated like doormats any longer and we can take our lives back.

Kick these wayward spouses to the curb, protect your self-interests and interests of the kids! Legally take as much as you can from the WS on your way out of the marriage! You owe them nothing and they deserve nothing!

Each member comes here to share. What they share is a moment in time. And that moment in time does not stand by itself. It’s influenced by the BS, the WS and where they are on their journey.

The beginning of this journey is painful....and terrifying. It’s confusing, especially for a BS who’s only now learning the reality of their life. But if the member stays and continues sharing, many of their posts are in stark contrast to their original moment in time post. They find their footing, they are no longer confused or the pain has subsided.

Here’s the unfortunate circumstances. Many members might be doing well with their reformed and rebuilt marriages....but don’t share it. It doesn’t seem relevant to spend time writing what’s going great when there’s so many downing in pain...throw them a life line first. Then, when there are positive posts - they have few responses. My brain ticks off a box labelled “doesn’t need me- doing fine”.

Soninstead, I take note of who’s NOT posting. If things were shit - they’d be posting about it more than likely. So instead of judging success rates by a poll, look at the members who help but don’t ask for help.

My story is the same as Deephurt. I’ve become the main breadwinner. I support my H currently, and I’m content with that arrangement. I have no children at home anymore. I have no reason to stay expect that I want to be here. That in itself is only possible because i invested the time into healing and my husband has been incredible...flawed at times - but overall, he’s been a man worthy of R.

Members pm me and ask how...what are they doing wrong? And nearly every one of those people are missing a key component.. .the one thing they have no control over. And that a remorseful spouse.

Still, there are others who have a remorseful spouse:..but the BS doesn’t want to R. That is an integral ingredient to R. If that’s very missing, they can’t reconcile. And thats okay.

Whatever you decide is okay. It’s your life. Only you know if you have the ingredients to R.

Ok...let me try this empathy aspect again. My original intent was good but some flaws in the methodology.

skins:

First, please accept my apologies for any sidetracking of your post that may have resulted from not just first speaking to you.

I have since read many of your prior posts. I'm saddened by what you have experienced...but not necessarily surprised since it is what I would have expected to be contributing factors to the perceived tone of this post. I also completely understand how some of your personal factors could contribute to a "fuck 'em all!" perspective. I know because I also share many of the same experiences.

You're dealing with a long-term affair - that encompasses a large percentage of the length of the marriage itself. There have been other affairs. All this happened within the context of your WS's choice of a sexless marriage. You have a much more limited prior sexual history than your wife - in part because you believe sex should be meaningful. To complicate any reconciliation, your wife uses sex as a carrot on a stick - suddenly gives it, gives it in spades (a threesome) when the going gets rough, and then withholds it when the scale isn't tipping fast enough. (Which all just indicates that she is not only manipulative...but that she is manipulative specifically with sex. Big surprise, huh?)

Here's the thing...and I think what is at the essence of your post. As BSs, we spend a lot of time initially trying to determine what a remorseful spouse looks like. We then spend a lot of time trying to evaluate if our spouse is remorseful or not. Then we spend a lot of time trying to figure out why we aren't getting over it ("Hey...the sex is now better than it's ever been! Why do I still feel like shit?") But the one piece that we never stopped to consider was that we may actually have a spouse that is incapable of EVER obtaining remorse. It is neither a matter of an "If" nor a "When".

And speaking personally, that realization really made me want to scream from the rooftops - "Fuck 'em all!"

But it also took me 12 years to finally reach that understanding...in little, ittle, bitty, baby steps that cut my heart out in slivers while it was still beating. Yeah. Ugh. But hey...I've been a lot more politically correct in the process.

I get it. Completely. I hope I've conveyed that. You're not alone. I totally understand how the uniqueness of your own situation adds some levels of pain that are not only different than the betrayal itself - but in some ways even deeper. The proverbial "salt in the wound". It hurts on a different level because it contaminates the entire experience...there is little to nothing salvageable from the past and building again in a now known "tornado alley" seems overwhelmingly foolish. Watching others do it (as it seems) and saying nothing - now that you know, now that you understand something you didn't understand at the time of destruction - feels cold-hearted, cruel...in a way, like the tornado itself. OMG...how can I NOT say anything? I don't have that answer other than to say, Uh...because it's against the rules? I know, I know. People can change. (Goddamn you, hope!) But you need to see this as a Rainbow Unicorn - not so that you can damn everyone's relationship (I hardly think you would even want to do that!) - but so you can damn yours. It's a way of bludgeoning hope...because in some of our cases, bludgeoning ALL hope is the only way we can get ourselves out of a hopeless situation.

Let me also say this, too.... There were many that tried to bludgeon my hope over the years. It did no good. But one day when the winds whipped up again and I finally realized, I gotta kill this mudda...thank GOD there was someone there to help me put out that hope fire.

[This message edited by truthsetmefree at 12:18 PM, March 23rd (Friday)]

I think you are right on... I’m 6 years out and I feel it’s been a waste of my time but at my age I’m not going to find someone else. So for now I’ll stick around. Last month I told my fWH I was divorcing and our DD came upstairs and started crying. It broke my heart. She’s lives with us because she failed her first year in college. I’m not surprised with the shit show that was going on at home even though she left the state. There was too much damage and she needed to come home. She works and goes to community college now and lives with us. I pretty much never argue with fWH. I don’t want the drama but sometimes I just break and I can’t take fwh bullshit. I know he hides things and he never did the work. So I figured I’m done but my DD was crying because she said that she will feel lost. I want to move out of our expensive TH and back to my free home that I need to renovate. But they like living in town. So suddenly like always I’m trying to figure out how to make everyone happy... no no

He screwed up our lives I’m the one keeping things together. I’m the one trying to work things out...

so yes I agree with Skins. Get out immediately when you find out. I also would like an anonymous poll her on SI.. I think you would find that most BS would say they aren’t happy and that they certainly aren’t R’d past tense. I think you are continually in R and it’s a bear... it’s constantly there and yes it becomes less in the forefront but you always are looking to see how He or She is behaving. There is No trust left. It can never really come back....

I hate myself for staying. I know I’m strong but feel weak and helpless because I let him just have a easy life while I die inside.

Divorce is painful but a clean cut compared to the constant tearing of wounds.

[This message edited by Hurtbeyondtime at 9:35 PM, March 23rd (Friday)]

I hate myself for staying. I know I’m strong but feel weak and helpless because I let him just have a easy life while I die inside.

Divorce is painful but a clean cut compared to the constant tearing of wounds.

Well damn. Might wanna look into fatalistic thinking fallacies... if you have the time.

I suspect financial reasons and kids are bigger reasons why people stay instead of "happiness".

For me bro they weren't reasons I stay or stayed. They were reasons I risked taking a second chance at getting wrapped up in fuct tape. It sounds similar but its very different.

The facts are very few people do actually change. How many criminals are repeat offenders? From some things I've read 68% re-offend within 3 years and 77% after 5 years.

That's a ridiculous analogy.

I disagree. I think recidivism rates are a damn good analogy. Both have mindsets where they, for whatever reason, discount following the rules despite clear knowledge of potential consequences. I think the % is less for marriages, its because some of the marriages end in divorce and there is zero chance for repeating the offense. I'd argue if 100% of the cheaters caught cheating were offered r, then the percentages of repeating the behavior would be very close to criminal repeating.

The problem with applied statistics is that our discussion isn't related to marketing anything but individual cases, and therefore nearly unusable. I could go on to say that, by access to internet, wisdom in selecting this site over others, and intent to heal, are likely indicators the membership is in equal to or greater than the lower middle class. This would imply a level of education that would further tilt statistics in the direction of nonrepeat for members vs general population.

I would also suppose the flip side of that... which is that the avg income level and lack of education are likely impacts point that cause the recidivism rates are not accurate to our membership.

But sisoon, your better at stats than I am... what do you think the +/- is on the application of those rates to the genital public?

[This message edited by Notthevictem at 11:34 PM, March 23rd (Friday)]

After being married for 30 years to the person I always felt I would grow old with..... I really wonder how we will survive.

This person who I spent over 30 years with threw me away in 30 seconds.

No matter what this person does in the future, that right there ^^ NEVER GOES AWAY!

I'm 15 months into R .... and most days I'm thinking we wont make it. Even though we both want to stay together, there just may be too much pain and destruction to fix.

This R stuff ain't easy. It requires the Betrayed spouse to accept things that in most cases are completely unacceptable. It's hard to get your brain to accept something it knows it should not.

The more I think about this and the more stories I read keep bringing me back to this single conclusion.

People that are capable of having affairs truly are evil. The type of person it takes to lie, deceive, have unprotected sex, a second relationship, plan illicit sex around your spouse are truly evil people. There is no other way to look at it. They are cold, methodical, calculating and emotionless while doing so. They actively work to destroy their partners life intentionally everyday. They are putting knives in their spouses backs daily.

Affairs, especially LTA's are evil and people are involved in them are evil too. You can't live with or be in any relationships with these people. Their heart and soul are full of hate and evil.

I don't know about everyone else but I'm happy that evil will soon be out of my life for good. I know there are good women out there somewhere and maybe someday I'll meet one that likes me.

People that are capable of having affairs truly are evil.

I believe everyone is capable of having an affair. Go to the Wayward forum and ask any WS if they thought before their A if they ever would do such a thing. I’m willing to bet 99 out of a 100 would say no way in hell - if not all 100. The difference is that when faced with situations or dealing with whatever issues, we have better coping mechanisms, strong boundaries, respect for our spouses, pick your poison, and make good decisions. The WS did not. I know it fits into your narrative to want to call all WS’s evil, but don’t kid yourself.

Their heart and soul are full of hate and evil.

This was said before but it bears repeating. I get that you are hurting and are angry. But please keep in mind that this very site where you have posting privileges, was founded by someone who was a WS along with her husband. Are you suggesting that she devoted so much time and effort to help literally thousands of people cope with infidelity because she was “full of hate and evil?” What about the mods and guides here doing the same that are also former WS’s? Are they evil too? Again, you’re angry. I get it. But I don’t believe that your pain excuses blanket generalizations and frankly being impolite, particularly when those assertions are clearly wrong. Again, I get you’re venting, but think about it.

I don't know about everyone else but I'm happy that evil will soon be out of my life for good.

You see? That was perfect. This is your situation. You believe your wife is evil and you are taking steps toward excising her from your life. And that’s your take and the actions you’ve chosen.

We can rise up and overcome the fucked up shit our spouses have done/continue to do to us. We can take back the power in the relationship and let them wallow in the pile of shit they created. We don't have to be treated like doormats any longer and we can take our lives back.

Why does it matter to you what other people do? Why is it “we?” Why not “I”? You may want to explore that.

Kick these wayward spouses to the curb, protect your self-interests and interests of the kids! Legally take as much as you can from the WS on your way out of the marriage! You owe them nothing and they deserve nothing!

I can only speak about my situation, but I was a wreck after DDay and had so much anger in me. I literally wanted to beat the crap out of my wife (no, I never laid a hand on her). But when discussing D with my attorney or just ruminating about it, those sentiments never occurred to me. She’s someone I was with for roughly 25 years and had 5 children with. I loved her for the majority of my life. Of course she hurt me in the worst way possible and I was angry and in pain. But in my mind, taking the approach you recommend would negate all those feelings I had for so many years. And it would mean I would betray what I know it means to be a man. She hurt me so I’ll hurt her even worse may feel good for a minute or so, but it’s not a very good way to conduct your life. My kids were watching. I was watching. And I believe God was watching. My personal integrity and the way I conducted myself meant more to me than exacting any small level of retribution. You may feel differently now, but do a gut check further down the line. Don’t act in a way you’ll regret. Of course, to each their own.

As an aside, since you brought up statistics as a basis for decision making, you should most definitely explore heuristics, biases and behavioral economics in general. For example, I can suggest that your battle cry is in fact a way for you to achieve a level of confirmation bias. You chose a course of action and you are looking for statistics to support your decision and other folks doing the same confirms to you that your chose was the correct one. But if you are aware of your inherent bias, then you can asses if that is influencing your decisions and outlook. It’s helpful, but requires rational rather than emotional thinking. And infidelity can make us all bat shit crazy so it’s tough to do.

I wish you healing and above all peace and serenity.

Walloped: Maybe you're able to see past the hurt, lies, deception, , plotting with AP and willful destruction of the marriage because of your marriage history and kids. I can't do that. I have no kids and the affair was basically the entire length of our marriage.

Yes my WW has "learned her lesson" that affairs are selfish and destructive and hurtful. That's great for her, I got to be the guinea pig for her life lessons because she didn't know right from wrong or that affairs are destructive. It's complete BS.

No maybe these people didn't go looking for an affair (highly doubtful as they were definitely flirting and telling AP the door was open). My WW says it was just a friendship that turned into more. Well I don't care how it started. The day it crossed the line every spouse should have said something, stopped it, removed themselves and told their significant other what happened.

If you don't do this and continue to see this other person then you are an evil, selfish, heartless, cruel person who is intentially abusing their partner and is premeditating the destruction of the marriage .

I'm saying "we" because there are so many other betrayed spouses on here that are still being treated like doormats and don't have the courage to stand up to their abusive spouses! Affairs are emotionally, mentally, physically and sexually abusive!

Yes people who cheat are broken in the ways you have stated but it's so much more than that. To have the mindset of a cheater, especially in a long-term affair they are truly monstrous and evil.

I hate seeing so many sad, depressed, mentally broken people day after day abused by the people the loved and trusted the most. Every betrayed spouse should be pissed and they shouldn't be treated this way any longer. I firmly believe that reconciliation is a waste of time because the relationship is broken beyond repair. The betrayed spouses never fully heal from the mental scars that are left.

I understand people who want to stay because of the children but I also think that cheaters don't even deserve to be parents, after all they risked the lives of their kids for cheap sex.

The people who stay for financial reasons are just as broken and don't value their own self-worth and need counseling to heal. Your personal freedom and being free from abuse is worth more than any amount of money or lifestyle.

Adulterers just need to go to jail, face steep financial penalties and have their kids taken from them.

Affairs destroy families, lives and the very fabric of civilization so they should be treated with severe punishment and penalties.

Does it make it any easier if you label you stbx as evil?

Easier? No, it's just a more accurate description to the true depth of their character.

Well, don't forget the many BS who think they have successfully R only to find out the WS cheats again yrs later or kept cheating only hiding it better.

It happens. Just say'n.

Affairs, especially LTA's are evil and people are involved in them are evil too. You can't live with or be in any relationships with these people. Their heart and soul are full of hate and evil.

No my FWH's heart and soul weren't filled with hate and evil. Full of pain, selfishness and fuckedupness, yes. If I believed my FWH wasn't a good man I wouldn't have given him a chance at reconciliation. He is, and was, a good man who made horrible, awful choices that he would give anything to be able to undo.

eta: to fix sentence for clarity

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 5:08 PM, March 26th (Monday)]

If it don't make it easier or help, whats the point?

I aint disagreeing with ya. Given what your wife did, evil is probably an understatement for how I'd call it. And to say others that did that or worse are evil too is not necessarily stretching anything.

But I'd also say being faithful doesn't necessarily mean someone is a good person either.