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PM for you skins21

I agree with your sentiment 100%, skins. And while your choice of words and sentences might cross over into overgeneralizations, I heard the message and agree with it completely. And I would add to that that your method of delivering the message at least got conversation going. I tried to say sort of the same thing awhile back but it got maybe 3 replies. But of course, I tried to phrase it all very gently and politely and middle of the road and so it got little attention and no discussion was had. Discussion and conversation and exchange of ideas is always a good thing and I'm glad you got it started even if not everyone agrees with your style or your opinion (edited to add those last 3 words).

But the point is, you're right that too many BS's go into hyper-superperson mode, ready to do whatever it takes to save the marriage, ever if they have to sacrifice themselves and stuff their feelings to do it, whatever the cost.

And then, in too many cases where it's false R, we BS's immediately go into hyper-superfair person who is going to remain civil and polite and not ask for more than our fair share. Baloney to that. The BS deserves financial compensation. It might not be the law of the land but it's what's right.

If it was up to me, I'd tell every new poster in JFO to go see a lawyer and find out their rights, get advice about a host of issues concerning kids and finances and inheritances, etc. and maybe even begin drawing up D papers. Not necessarily file them but get the papers started. I'd do that before I'd worry about exposing the A. I think it's better to go straight to the process for D. If you have a remorseful spouse, they'll move heaven and earth to prove to you that they deserve a second chance; it will then be your choice whether you wish to R or not. It shouldn't be a quick decision from the gut when you're in such an emotional state. Best part is, you'll find out their mindset much earlier in the process and have better clues to move forward with what you should do with your new version of your life. And, if they prove to be not remorseful, you'll save a lot of time and pain trying to figure it out.

And while I might have gone to D right away this time around, I was in R for 34 years so I believe I can see both sides of it.

[This message edited by josiep at 12:50 PM, March 27th (Tuesday)]

Not to be picky, josiep, but what you say

I agree with your sentiment 100%, skins.

you agree with skins21 about is not what skins21 is posting about. Your interpretation of his post is not what he is posting with his over generalizations or at least you are saying whilst you agree with what he is saying that isn't what you would advise newbies to do but "talk to an attorney and wait to see if they are remorseful" which is not what skins21 has posted about. Your advice is reasonable and sensible and not generalizing.

josiep: I'm glad that you found my posts useful. I agree, every single person in JFO needs to see an attorney ASAP. That was the first thing I did the day after DD. I found out my rights, what the expect and had the papers in hand.

My WW did make some changes but most of the stuff she did was because it was my requirement, not because she was doing anything on her own. She did not move heaven and earth to save the M.

She is sad, regretful and full of guilt but not much in the way of remorse and empathy. Her IC only validates her woe is me attitude for ruining everything. She is just lazy and only would do any work if I threatened the relationship. Well you can only do that so many times before the effect wears off. That's why D is the only option left.

I've exhausted my patience and kindness. I don't wish her any ill will (that's for OM) and I hope she can be happy with herself and life choices someday. I just know in my heart that I can't have a relationship with a person who can behave like that, especially for so long. That's just cruel and evil and not worthy of being on my team in my life. I just hope others can reach that conclusion quicker than it took for me.

Trying to R with someone who isn't all-in from DD is torturous and another level of mind fuckery that BSs don't deserve.

Trying to R with someone who isn't all-in from DD is torturous and another level of mind fuckery that BSs don't deserve.

Very true words skin.

No one here can take their experience and lay it flush with someone else's. In my instance, after a quarter century of marriage, I found reconcilation was not possible, not because of infidelity but because he was not a suitable person for marriage in that he was lacking a soul, which is the bare minimum requirement for having a successful marriage of any sort with or without infidelity.

I want to challenge you a bit in your thinking. Your response is not necessary, I'm not trying to prove you "wrong".

I am a unicorn of sorts in that I should by all rights be a serial killer and yet I'm not. I have BPD. Google it, all sites you find will tell you to run the hell away because I'm satan incarnate. The first time I had sex I was five. Sex has literally not EVER not been a part of my life. Yes, I cheated. I had an exit affair. I sincerely (and brokenly) thought he'd call me a whore and leave and that would be that.

That wasn't what happened obviously.

That was a tremendous jumping off point for ME. I decided I never wanted to look in the mirror and see a whore again. EVER. And I would do whatever it took to make that a reality.

And so I did.

Why?

Some people, like my ex, while they appear broken, are actually quite happy with how their lives play out. They enjoy hurting and using others.

But not all.

There is not one statement one earth you can say that applies to every member of any certain group. It's just not possible.

The hardest thing about being here is when a WS REALLY gets it and the BS posts about how things are going, what their WS said, etc. Why? Because we literally at some point would have KILLEd to have an ounce of that, but no we got the devil in flesh.

It happens.

The last thing I have to share with you will sound REALLY corny and ridiculous, but I encourage you to think about it.

I have been NC with the ex for some years now, two or three. The one thing I might say in person would be to thank him for showing me EVERY place I was broken and capitalizing them to the degree that he did. I learned so much about myself. More then I ever have in life.

I wish you nothing but the very best the universe has to offer.

Every situation is different I get it. However, crossing the line and choosing to cheat is the same set of poor choices and lack of moral character/personal accountability in every WS.

I have very little faith that most WS are capable of redemption and living as a morally chaste person for the rest of their lives.

What really happens is they get caught, pretend to be sorry, change just long enough to stop the divorce and then slide back into the same patterns/lifestyle as before and hurt their partner again.

Emotionally immature people rarely even learn from their mistakes and prevent them from occurring in the future.

I just don't understand how someone can cheat on a spouse. It's beyond fucked up and I have no sympathy for the consequences they face upon discovery. Marriage is pointless if there is no punishment for breaking the vows.

Also, most everyone has been affected by divorce in their lives so it's not like people don't know it's wrong or how destructive it is to families and children especially. Why the fuck can't people learn from seeing other people's mistakes? Am I the only person who can learn this way? It seems like most people only learn by fucking up on their own which is so dumb, especially when it comes to infidelity.

My WW "has learned her lesson" now and will never cheat again. Wonderful!!! ....but you didn't learn that lesson watching both of your parents cheat on each other and seeing how it destroyed your childhood?

Maybe I just expect too much from people and society in general. I just need to embrace that people suck and society is crumbling brick by brick everyday.

What really happens is they get caught, pretend to be sorry, change just long enough to stop the divorce and then slide back into the same patterns/lifestyle as before and hurt their partner again.

Even worse, they may actually be sorry and intend to change, but lose motivation when the immediate crisis is over. Emotional immaturity and selfishness are hard things to overcome.

Trying to R with someone who isn't all-in from DD is torturous and another level of mind fuckery that BSs don't deserve.

Damn straight! It broke me!

I have to disagree. My WGF cheated 8 years ago. She was young and didn't know how to deal with our relationship that was floundering. But she also had really bad self-esteem issues as i discovered.Hers was a 1 week fling.

She has been pretty damn good since. Hasn't cheated, has never given me any doubt. She loves me way more than I love her. and shows me everyday.

The sad part isn't that she hasn't changed, but that I hit a spot where I pushed and prodded for details and opened up the wound and now treat her like i did 8 years ago.

I think people can change. But sometimes in R it isn't the betrayer but the betrayed that can't make that commitment anymore. I am somewhere there, trying to find out what i need and want.

"I have very little faith that most WS are capable of redemption and living as a morally chaste person for the rest of their lives."

Skins - I know you are hurting - devastated - I understand those feelings - and you have every right to feel what you feel. Spewing forth generalizations demeans those of us who have changed. I cheated on my first husband - I hurt a good man who did not deserve the devastation I caused him. That was nearly 40 years ago and I still feel remorse and shame when I think about what I did. I worked hard to come to terms with the brokenness in me that made me ever think cheating was justified. I knew if I ever was in a relationship again I would not cheat - I did not want to be that person who could cause such hurt to another human being. I have been a loving, supportive FAITHFUL wife for the past 35 years.

When you make generalized statements like the one above you are passing judgement on people you don't know - you don't know their stories - their struggles - the work they have done to become faithful loving partners. On this site alone there are countless WS who have changed - who are worthy of redemption and will never cheat again.

As a BS I understand your hurt, devastation - but please don't use that hurt to condemn people you don't even know as morally unfit. It really is not up to you to pass judgement on who is worthy of redemption.

Maybe it was my karma - I finally got what I deserved in hurting my first husband - but when Dday hit one of the reasons I decided to R was because I know people can and do change - I DID!

"I have very little faith that most WS are capable of redemption and living as a morally chaste person for the rest of their lives."

Skins - I know you are hurting - devastated - I understand those feelings - and you have every right to feel what you feel. Spewing forth generalizations demeans those of us who have changed. I cheated on my first husband - I hurt a good man who did not deserve the devastation I caused him. That was nearly 40 years ago and I still feel remorse and shame when I think about what I did. I worked hard to come to terms with the brokenness in me that made me ever think cheating was justified. I knew if I ever was in a relationship again I would not cheat - I did not want to be that person who could cause such hurt to another human being. I have been a loving, supportive FAITHFUL wife for the past 35 years.

When you make generalized statements like the one above you are passing judgement on people you don't know - you don't know their stories - their struggles - the work they have done to become faithful loving partners. On this site alone there are countless WS who have changed - who are worthy of redemption and will never cheat again.

As a BS I understand your hurt, devastation - but please don't use that hurt to condemn people you don't even know as morally unfit. It really is not up to you to pass judgement on who is worthy of redemption.

So what part of what he wrote do you disagree with? That he has very little faith? Does he have more than he says or less than he says? He was expressing his state of mind. He expressed it here to engage in conversation.

Or are you disagreeing with his belief that most WS's aren't capable of redemption? Do you believe that ALL WS's are capable? Or that most are capable?

Obviously, everyone is capable on some level but our personalities and life experiences, etc. create a venue in which our redemptive abilites can either bloom or wither.

But then you go on to say many WS's are worthy of redemption. I don't believe anyone said anyone isn't worthy of redemption or did I miss something? I never got that message from what skins wrote.

skins was sharing his thoughts and opinions. I understood the message he was trying to relay and I agree with it. Obviously there are always exceptions to generalizations, and I believe most people would let me slide in making that overgeneralization. I think what's happening here is people are reacting to his delivery style and ignoring his message and I think it's a shame because I watch so many people tearing themselves to pieces trying to R with an unremorseful spouse and it causes me to lie awake at night and worry about them. Because even if them sacrificing themselves to stay in R keeps the WS in the marriage, what have they done to themselves? I really think more of us should be encouraging BS's to stand up for themselves more and truly be willing to discard the marriage in order to save the marriage. Only then can it be an equal fair relationship going forward.

Do not waste anymore time.......on people who cheat!!!! I've come to the conclusion that reconciliation is pointless and only lengthens the time it takes to heal from infidelity. Unless it was a ONS and your partner is truly remorseful it's useless to try and save the marriage.

Naw, it isn't his delivery of the message, it is his message that many are taking issue with.

I think what's happening here is people are reacting to his delivery style and ignoring his message and I think it's a shame because I watch so many people tearing themselves to pieces trying to R with an unremorseful spouse and it causes me to lie awake at night and worry about them.

Josie, that’s why one should avoid generalizations (besides the fact it’s a guideline). It screws up the message. Instead of helping the OP, you’re inviting pages of people giving examples that disprove the generalization. Instead of making statements about ALL waywards and ALL reconciliation attempts, one should focus on THEIR situation. That way THEY can get the support they need.

You can be frustrated with those responding to how they perceive the message but also look to the person sending the message to assign blame for the core message being misunderstood.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 10:07 AM, March 28th (Wednesday)]

Sister MilkShake wrote: Not to be picky, josiep, but what you say

I agree with your sentiment 100%, skins.

you agree with skins21 about is not what skins21 is posting about. Your interpretation of his post is not what he is posting with his over generalizations or at least you are saying whilst you agree with what he is saying that isn't what you would advise newbies to do but "talk to an attorney and wait to see if they are remorseful" which is not what skins21 has posted about. Your advice is reasonable and sensible and not generalizing.

His very first post said don't waste time trying to reconcile with an unremorseful spouse. Get out and begin healing instead of piling more pain and hurt on yourself.

I agree with that 100%.

I didn't mean to imply to sitting back and waiting to see what happens after visiting the attorney. I'd advise many newly betrayed spouses to visit that attorney and march home to confront the WS with what they know and that they've already consulted an attorney to start the divorce process.

The WS will either step up to the plate or they won't. It might take awhile. It might never happen. The divorce might go through followed by R later on down the road. There are scads of possibilities. But they aren't the issue, the issue is the healing process for the BS; when will the BS begin to heal and feel human and alive again. And let me overgeneralize here big time: the sooner the BS begins to heal and feel human and alive again is what matters the most because that is crucial to the well-being of the family. We have no control whatsoever over the health, mental, emotional, physical, etc., of the WS. We must take control of our own.

I'll even go one step further with my opinion. I think the stronger (mentally and emotionally healthy) the BS is, the sooner the WS can heal. The longer a couple is in false R, the deeper the pain for the BS and the deeper the guilt for the WS. It only makes it harder to come back from, should that ever be in the cards cuz now they have a bigger pile of doodoo to sift through and recover from.

All that said, I also view the majority of adultery in the same vein as addiction and base a lot of my beliefs on that.

I also hope that everyone who reads on S.I. understands that one size never fits all. We are each are dealing with personality issues, family issues, financial issues, etc. that are unique to our own lives and our solutions will develop in that context.

But I still agree with skins overall message of not wasting time on an unremorseful cheater.

His very first post said don't waste time trying to reconcile with an unremorseful spouse.

Nope, that isn't what he posted.

I think some folks here forget SI is a discussion forum. There will be some with opinions that are in line with how you feel. There is no sure fire method to survive infidelity.

I think many would agree with the always D if there's a betrayal. Honestly, the longer I'm in this mess the more sense that line of thinking makes to me. I don't necessarily think WS remorsefulness deserves R either. Some do. Some think it's better. I can't fault them.

We all walk our own path.

Emotionally immature people rarely even learn from their mistakes and prevent them from occurring in the future.

Again truer words...

I think the pain of what you have been through is still too great to imagine another relationship and that's okay - it totally happens.

People will beat you over the head with what you "ought" do, but I will not.

I have found when I generalize about any given group of people (men, races, older people, younger people, Bs, WSetc.) I rob myself. Everyone has something to offer, that's just how life works. I don't want to miss a thing so I give everyone the benefit of the doubt from the git go. One of my biggest problems is I assumed people were genuine like me, when in fact, many are quite the opposite and hide it really well.

Some WS will never change, but that doesn't mean others won't. Nothing quite smarts like you being the BS who teaches someone that lesson when they go on to treat a second spouse much better it happens.

and your partner is truly remorseful it's useless to try and save the marriage

Skins brother, I feel you. I wish, truly wish, that newly betrayed spouses could see past the rejection and the hurt and understand that YES it does take a pretty cruel person to commit adultery. And further, there is NOTHING the betrayed can do to make the wayward "change." No amount of pick-me-dancing is ever going to really work.

So while I don't advocate immediate divorce, I am a big fan of filing and detaching from the web of deceit, manipulation and abuse that has been spun by their wayward. A clear head beats a brain scrambled by rejection and trauma any day.

Strength and blessings to you brother.

I think skins is just expressing his frustration at his reality, and anyone who hasn’t taken husbands path, or is in R, take some offense because it seems like a threat to their mindset. It’s unsettling to them, and I get it. I don’t blame the guy he has been through hell.

Honestly I tend to be in the same mindset. Sure, objectively I know WS can and do often become better people, yeah that’s so great, but it’s happened at the BS expense. Too little too late. They will sadly make a great partner for the next relationship their in, after the BS has been dragged over the emotional coals. I’m pretty much of the mindset that for ME, cheating is an auto dealbreaker. Gone, ghosted,, see ya. Like an infected limb, cut it off at the base and learn how to be happy again, instead of daily antibiotics for life. Whether a WS changes or not, to me, damaged goods is damaged goods. I’d rather take my chances on a woman who hasn’t by may cheat on me, that a woman who has cheated on me but won’t again. Can’t stomach the disrespect and disloyalty. I’m worth more than a WS and I know it.

But again, skins is just hurting. I don’t think he is swinging a hammer at all you folks in R, so no need to get defensive. But I understand why it feels threatening to you. To each their own. And to nana Two, I beleive you have paid your debt to karma. It’s too bad the man not worth it got honest lovin version of you, and the man worth it got shitty version of you. Oh well life ain’t fair. Hope the good man you disrespected and devastated 40 years ago has an amazing family, life, and wife he deserves .

[This message edited by nicenomore at 10:17 AM, March 29th (Thursday)]

Is he a threat to those of us in R? Or are we concerned with the message it sends newbies, or insulting to our reformed WS’s that take time to help new waywards on this site...maybe we are concerned the message is rude and disrespectful to some of our members who prove his generalizations wrong. B

Because I for one don’t want to lose a single one of those gems who although healed and healthy -still come here to help others forward.

I absolutely believe all those awful things of skins wife. He’s knows her better than I. She must be horrible from his description. But our reformed waywards are not her.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 12:13 PM, March 29th (Thursday)]