SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

All I can say is what worked for me... and that was coming out of the box on DDay swinging for the fence on divorce. At that point, it was my WS who needed to change MY mind. It was HIS job to convince me, not the other way around. And as I read stories on this board and others, it's pretty typical that this kind of strong stance separates the wheat from the chaff in terms of telling us which waywards are willing to do the work and which aren't.

This method appears to be win/win. Either you get a WS who's willing to go into R at 100%, or you get further on down the pike restarting your life.

So, no... I don't agree that every cheater is beyond redemption. But I do agree that the default setting ought to be divorce for most of us, and then watching to see what the WS will do to earn their way back in.

I would say that putting one’s own happiness over the happiness of their children is selfish. And, therefore, reconciliation should be attempted if the wayward is no longer cheating.

I would say the WS is the one who's selfish. We all deserve happiness in life and I will no longer sacrifice my happiness for anyone else. How can you make others happy if you aren't happy yourself?

How can you make others happy if you aren't happy yourself?

Eh. Famous comedians do that all the time. Pop stars. Actors. Doctors. The world is full of people who inspire happiness who don't have to be happy themselves.

PlanC & skins21...

I agree TOTALLY with BOTH perspectives. And that poses a real delima for more than a few people, I would think.

My decisions have ended up taking the "children" issue, and in my case, my H's health, over the arguement of not being able to make someone else happy if I'm not happy - but not sure if the effects of my decision support my choice.

"reconciliation should be attempted if the wayward is no longer cheating."

reconciliation should be attempted only if the WS is remorseful and pulls his shit together. otherwise, what kind of example are you setting for children?

I would say that putting one’s own happiness over the happiness of their children is selfish. And, therefore, reconciliation should be attempted if the wayward is no longer cheating.

But when is the wayward no longer cheating? When they're caught? While I don't agree with you at all, I can understand it if the WS comes clean on their own and confesses, or even if they're found out after the A is over and they ended the A, not the AP. But not cheating anymore bc they got busted, that's about as far away from deserving R as it gets.

I feel for you skins. I didn’t see it was a LTA for almost 1/5th of your relationship and half your marriage.

Not easy to get over. you concentrate on yourself. Make yourself happy. She had real feelings for Ap. She lived in fantasy land for a long time.

Eh. Famous comedians do that all the time. Pop stars. Actors. Doctors. The world is full of people who inspire happiness who don't have to be happy themselves.

While that may be true, I would also argue the rate of suicide among that group of people is also higher. Many entertainers like to make others happy but are extremely unhappy with their own lives and often end them prematurely. So many drug overdoses, hangings and self inflicted gunshots happen every year. The unhappiness eventually catches up with them until they believe living is more tortuous than dying.

I would like to add that living in the bubble of uncertainty in the months after DDAY, when I felt my H was a stranger to me, had no idea what i fully was up against, was one if the hardest things ive ever endured. To press through that experience, rather than run from it, took more courage than i ever suspected I had. And my H knew that, too. Never expected I'd do anything other than tell him to get his sorry ass out of my house and life. But then i did the unexpected and agreed to give him a chance. One chance to prove his worth to me and our daughters.

His reasons for cheating do matter. His FOO issues, too. But ultimately it was his time to grow the fuck up, become the type if man he wanted to be. Time was up. Now or never (at least not with me around to help). So he grabbed that opportunity and gave it everything he had. Over 3 years now with no let up.

There are no guarantees in life. People are fallible. People are weak. But a BS who can put themselves out there and take the risk many if us have, should be very proud of what we've shown about who we are. I think maybe that's the grace some here talk about. Giving the WS the chance to change themself. Motivation to do so.

Each of us knows intimately our own situation. Know deep inside us whether our WS is worthy of this risk on our part. Not all are. Not all want to change. But many do want, and deserve, this chance. We are under no obligation to offer R after what they have done. Your WS may not be willing ir able to change, skins. In that case, choosing to cut loose is a goid choice on your part. But please don't generalize to all situations. It simply is not true that R is a waste of time in all situations.

[This message edited by psychmom at 7:48 AM, March 20th (Tuesday)]

It seems like a lot of the BS's here are able to overlook many things in order to offer the gift of R.

I guess my questions to the BS's that can forgive or forget or can find grace or acceptance is this:

How much value do you place on sex/intimacy?

What factors the most in giving your spouse a second chance?

How can you ever trust your "partner" to be safe ever again?

For me the sex/intimacy was my biggest sticking point and the reason why I'll never be able to forgive. Some people know my story but going through that kind of gut wrenching betrayal is completely unforgivable and it haunts my mind daily.

From what I can tell my WW would be a good candidate for R but I can't reinvest in someone who has the capacity to hurt someone they "love" in such a way. It's evil in my mind the things she put me through. She had no intention of ever telling me and I only found out because she was caught by OBS. It took 6 months before I saw any sort of "remorse". Mostly just guilt and shame most likely from being caught. There wasn't any motivation on self improvement or discovering how and why this happened. Marriage counseling wasn't very productive probably because neither one of us went to IC first.

Today she's in IC, reading, rediscovering herself, off the toxic antidepressants she was on during the entire length of the affair, lost lots of weight and is now the person that I remember marrying. The sad part is that I just don't feel the same about her anymore and I know that I never will again. At least I'm not willing to wait around for 3 or more years to find out.

Here is the thing, skins21. It doesn't matter how anyone else answers those questions. Those are the questions you must answer. Our answers really don't matter to your situation because it is you and your situation.

We are all very different people. Our reactions, feelings are our own. If you feel that you can not and will not reconcile as the trauma is too great for you, that is very valid for you. Because it is valid for you doesn't mean it is valid for others. Try to accept that others feel differently, react differently, cope differently than you do. Doesn't make anyone better than the other, just different.

eta: missing comma

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 8:53 AM, March 20th (Tuesday)]

I agree with skins. Maybe not everyone should D but I think 90% should. I tried R and wasted 17 more years of my

life.

I compare it to a murderer. If a person is the type who can commit murder, do you give them a chance to change and stay married? Maybe counseling will make them change? Cheaters have black hearts like murderers. They can hurt other people and ruin lives and they only care about their own pleasures. Do I want to wait for that person to be rehabilitated? When their character is to cheat? It’s just part of their make up.

17 years after the last DDay.....

My ex swore he would never cheat again. Swore I had all the info. Then last year a confession right before a polygraph that there was just one more AP that he hadn’t confessed. It happened year 1 of marriage and was also with my friend. He lied about it for 25 years! Then one of the OW sent him an email to get back together with him. He told me at first but then decided to respond to it and made plans to go be with her on my birthday! He never went because I saw the emails.

Wasted life. Don’t be me.

I also agree with what Skins21 said. If the partner is not totally remorseful then recon is a waste of precious time.

^^^^^^Yeah, but that isn't what skins21 said, Angel. ^^^^^^^^

I'm with Skins. It's not a 'bad choice'. It's completely indulging yourself in selfish behavoir which is completely at the expense of the person you are supposed to be protecting. It's evil. FFS.

If you murder a baby and stand in court and say 'Sorry Judge, it was just a bad choice', will it make any difference?

Deed is done. Fate is sealed as far as I can see.

I have no time for anyone who could do that to another person.

How much value do you place on sex/intimacy?

A lot.

What factors the most in giving your spouse a second chance?

The changes that I have seen him make in himself. The fact that he is now the partner that I always wanted and deserve.

How can you ever trust your "partner" to be safe ever again?

I can't. I will never trust anyone to be safe again. Not like I did. If I D and find someone else, i would not trust them anymore than I trust my WH now. I will always be in the mindset of trust but verify now so whether its WH or someone else, no difference to me.

Every situation is different. Every ws is different and every bs is different. We are all different. There are loads of unremorseful WS's and there are loads of remorseful WS's. You can read about many right here on this site.

Skins-our situations are quite similar. My WH had a LTA.....9 years. 7 EA the rest PA. She told him she loved him, he said I love you too....whatever amount of times. She was a family friend.

Here is the thing discussed with IC when she asked why I decided to R. Why should someone else get the new improved WS? Why should someone else reap the benefits of the pain he put me through and became a better person after. Why should someone else have the new improved man I love. I went through the pain and I still love my WH, so why should I not reap the benefits of his changes now?

I would never trust anyone else to not cheat now anyway. Why should I not feel like someone who has done the work to become a better person after he saw and felt the damage he caused-would be less risky than someone I am just just meeting and getting to know. I thought I knew my husband through and through. Turns out I didn't. I would never feel like I know someone enough to trust them.

eta-what I see in this thread are people who believe people can't or won't change and people who believe that people can and do change. We are all entitled to our opinions and we are all entitled to feel like its a deal breaker of we want to R. Neither is right and neither is wrong but generalizing is wrong because we are all different.

[This message edited by deephurt at 9:45 AM, March 20th (Tuesday)]

I'm not saying that people can't change. I'm saying that changing for the better is a long, difficult road that many if not most WS never fully complete for various reasons. It's such a huge gamble to waste several more years waiting for your WS to become the partner you've always wanted.

How long do you really want to wait to find out if your WS is one of these rare people who can change for the better?

For some change is only temporary just to avoid divorce/consequences and years later slip back into the same patterns and DD#2, 3 or 4 happens.

Some people are completely unable to change and just have permanent character flaws/disorders you can choose to live with (ie sex addiction, alcholhism) or not.

Unless the change comes from a willingness of the WS to become a better person, to dig deep to find what their flaws are and own and fix them on their own I don't see any possibility of anything improving enough as the years go on. I just don't see many WS with the intrinsic motivation to right all of their wrongs and to put in the work of fixing themselves mentally, emotionally and physically.

There are only a very few people who actually do all of the the work necessary to change and become a better person who will be safe and remorseful partner. Even then, too much damage may have been done to consider taking them back again.

Where are you getting your data from, skins21?

There are only a very few people who actually do all of the the work necessary to change and become a better person who will be safe and remorseful partner.

Unless the change comes from a willingness of the WS to become a better person, to dig deep to find what their flaws are and own and fix them on their own I don't see any possibility of anything improving enough as the years go on.

^^^^^thi is very true

I just don't see many WS with the intrinsic motivation to right all of their wrongs and to put in the work of fixing themselves mentally, emotionally and physically.

I see many here on SI. I see it in my WH. If you don't see it in your WS, thats unfortunate. It is not necessarily true for anyone else.

There are only a very few people who actually do all of the the work necessary to change and become a better person who will be safe and remorseful partner. Even then, too much damage may have been done to consider taking them back again.

There seem to more than a few here on SI that are doing the work, have done the work to become a better person. We see it here everyday with many of the WS's here on SI. It is possible.

If there has been too much damage done in your situation, thats fine too. No one has ever said that you need to R or even attempt it. It is your life and you get to choose what you will accept. It just may not be the same for someone else.

My WH lied to me for 10 years. The ea was 7 years and PA was 2. He had an initial Pa with the slut and then 7 years later went back for PA again. I found out after 9 years. I used to feel so stupid that I didn't see the red flags. I trusted him though.

After DDay, he continued to lie and only admitted to a very small portion of the A. It took me a year to uncover the remainder because it just didn't add up to me.

It took WH about 2 full years to really get it. DDay #2 1 year later made the biggest impact but there were still things he didn't quite get yet.

My WH was really F'd up emotionally and mentally. Partially due to wrong meds but in general, he was in a f'd up place for a very long time....probably about 15 or more years. It did take some time before his head was clear and he could see everything for what it was and from my perspective as well.

I chose early on that I would make no decisions for 2 years. I needed the 2 years (specifically because of the TT) to decide what I wanted for my life. During those two years, he changed a lot. He needed those two years to finally get it and understand the depth of what he caused as well.

Would I expect someone else to wait that out? Not a chance, but it was my choice and I tool that option and it has worked very well for us.....at least so far.

None of us have any absolutes for the future. We have no guarantees that someone else won't do it to us or that if we R that our WS won't do it again. I just decided that the likeness of him hurting me that way again-based on the work he has done and the change i see in him- was less likely than if I had a new relationship with someone who I have never had history with.

We all get to decide what we want from our own situations. There is no wrong choice, there is just our choice.