SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

truthsetmefree

There are a lot of flaws in the saying, the best indicator of the future is past behaviours. Its actually a ridiculous statement because things, surrounding, people, behaviours, well everything changes-constantly. So past behaviour is just that-the past. It has very little to do with the future IMHO. Everyone can and do change if and when they want to. If you don't believe that, thats fine but I find it to be very limiting type of thinking. Again, JMHO

If my WH does it again or I find out he has never stopped, I will not be one of the ones that says that I wish I never R'd in the first place. I made a decision to try. It will be his failings, not mine that's at fault. I will have given my M absolutely everything I could ever have hoped to have given and then I will walk away knowing that I tried as hard as anyone ever could to keep my M in tact. That is my choice and I am not being codependent or dependent.

I still love my WH. Why? There are many reasons and sometimes I don't know why I still do. For me, giving him another chance, is something I want, for me. If he is truly changed and the man he is showing me now, I will have a very happy future with him. If it is a lie, I will know, at some point, and I will walk away knowing I gave it my all. I won't look at it as wasted time, I would look at it as it is. I tried and he didn't, so I move on.

Will I be bitter towards him? Yep, I can say that I will be.

You, nor your story or anyone elses story of false R ever scares me. Never has. Do I worry about whether this is all a lie...sure, sometimes but someone elses story never scares me because its not my story. My story is my story. If my story ends up following along the same path as someone elses, that is fine but, I am not going to live my life scared that your story will become mine. Why would I?

I do, sometimes, worry more about what the future is, more than I ever have, thanks to infidelity. It has left its scar and I will probably never return to who I was before-thats probably a good thing for some things and bad for others, but it it what it is now. Just like the CSA from my child hood. It definitely made changes in me, some for the better but most not. It was something in my life I had to endure, heal from and manage, much like infidelity is now.

However, I have always lived my life without worrying about something that hasn't happened yet. I don't hold as true to that any longer because I am not healed enough to feel as confident as I believe I will be after more years have passed and WH has earned more trust, but I feel I am returning to that thinking more and more each day. It is how I lived all these years, calmly and free of worry, married to a cop.

The whole meaning behind the sentence that you copied and highlighted of my post meant that you can't really generalize. Generalizations are just not true. There are always exceptions. There are as many people in R on this site as there are D.

There is a reason generalizations are against guidelines and I am pretty sure that is part of it-they aren't true for everyone.

Everyone agrees that we all get to decide what is right for our own circumstance. No one is telling OP that he is wrong to D or not try to R. Its a deal breaker for him and so many others. Thats okay. Its also okay for people to want to try to R and there should be and is no shame in wanting to R. There is no generalization that should be made because we are all different and will want to make different decisions about our situations.

All WS's are different. some are not remorseful and some are. Just because your story didn't work in R, doesn't mean someone else's won't. Just because your WS wasn't remorseful, doesn't mean other WS's aren't. There isn't a one size fits all solution.

[This message edited by deephurt at 5:25 PM, March 20th (Tuesday)]

There isn't a one size fits all

Very true. Affairs, APs, BS, WS, marriages--they are all unique.

The reality is that some people will accept a little change, while some will divorce over it not being enough. Some will get change in one area but not another and be happy enough, while others will call it out as unacceptable. Some WS will change quite a bit. Some will just get better at hiding it. Some BS will be in a fantastic reconciliation. Other BS will get false reconciliation, whether they know it or not.

It really is defined by the two people in the R.

@xhz700

SMS, I feel like you are talking out of both sides of your mouth here. On one hand, you disagree that an affair is unrecoverable, but on the other hand...

No, I am not.

What makes the second betrayal worse than the first? What is unrecoverable about that situation that wasn't in the first? People here are really just saying the same thing about their first affair that you are saying about your second.

What would be true for me, and maybe not for others, is that I would immediately get a divorce as I gave my FWH the one and only chance he was going to get at redemption from me for our marriage. He knows this. And, it isn't because it isn't, possibly, recoverable from. It is that I ain't going through that shit again. BTDT. It is each BS's own prerogative to decide what they want to do after a second d-day or false reconciliation. I am not telling others to get a divorce if they experience another d-day or false reconciliation and I am just sharing that is what I would do (or, at least, what I think I would do). What another BS wants to do is their choice to make. And, I get to make my choices.

eta: name and clarity

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 4:59 PM, March 20th (Tuesday)]

** posting as a member **

truthsetmefree,

It seems clear to me that you are speaking for yourself.

That's very different from the post that opens this thread, which very clearly tells people that R is impossible and a waste of time. That's very far into guideline violation territory, and besides, it's patently false.

As I read this thread, that's what 'the objectors' are objecting to.

I suspect every one of the objectors would agree

...that R is possible only with a WS who will do the work required to R;

...that some WSes are impossible to R with;

...that each BS is the best judge of whether or not his BS is a good candidate for R;

...that each BS has a free choice between D & R.

Why won't the proponents of the 'R is impossible' school accept that R is, in fact, possible, unless the WS won't do the necessary work?

will not be one of the ones that says that I wish I never R's in the first place.

Me either. The time I am putting in just gets me lifelong alimony vs half the marriage alimony.

My lawyer is the one who advised R. For as long as I could. She said I deserved lifelong alimony. I had 2 years to guareentee it. So during this time, I am waiting to see if he can continue being a changed man. So far so good.

If he cheats again. It won’t hurt me. It makes me more financially secure.

[This message edited by Iwantmyglasses at 5:31 PM, March 20th (Tuesday)]

Why won't the proponents of the 'R is impossible' school accept that R is, in fact, possible, unless the WS won't do the necessary work?

The only circumstances that I believe R is possible is if:

The affair was a ONS that was a mistake and the WS confessed to BS the next day.

The affair started off as friends but escalated to physical contact (kissing, hugging, groping) but sex didn't occur. After the "friendship" crossed the line the WS confesses to BS and then quits the job or transfers.

You mistakenly hooked up with your best friend when they were consoling you during a period of vulnerability. Again, the WS must confess immediately and then cut off all contact with the friend.

The affair lasted only a few weeks with only a handful of sexual encounters but WS is immediately remorseful and confesses everything and drops AP completely.

If your WS was in a long-term affair, had an affair with a relative, had lots of sex (more than 20 times), escalated the sex acts, had unprotected sex, gave AP sex acts they didn't give you, had sex with AP in your house/car/bed, made sexually explicit videos/pictures with AP, were in "love" with AP, had a child with AP, bought AP expensive gifts, cut BS off from sex during the affair, had sex with BS's friend, had sex with a coworker or never confessed about the affair then R is nearly impossible and shouldn't be tried IMO!

If after discovering the affair your WS trickle truths, lies, gaslights, defends AP, grieves the loss of AP, breaks NC with AP, doesn't move mountains to regain your trust and forgiveness then just get a divorce and end the relationship.

The relationship is dead and gone by that time anyways, just do what your heartless coward of a WS couldn't do and legally end the marriage.

How many people "reconcile" but are unhappy in their marriage now? The point isn't just to stay but to fix the broken shit and be happy together again somehow. Anything short of that is a waste of time and you're better moving on without WS IMO.

We do all those things to create a better, stronger marriage - because unlike our prior selves, we no longer just believe "oh my spouse would never do that".

I never had a 100% belief that my WH would NEVER cheat. In fact, I always believed that anyone was capable of cheating, given the ht set of circumstances. That didn't make it hurt any less when it actually happened.

xhz700, You posted this for SMS but I will also answer from my perspective:

What makes the second betrayal worse than the first? What is unrecoverable about that situation that wasn't in the first? People here are really just saying the same thing about their first affair that you are saying about your second.

I really believe we all get to make up our own mind regardless of anything else, even our own previous history. We all have our limits and get to decide when enough is enough.

I already stated I'm 99% confident my H would not cheat again, but like SMS, if he did, it would be a record fast D.

You see, there were 4 d-days in my first marriage. After the 3rd one, I made up my mind that if there was a 4th, it would be the last. I went to see a lawyer two days later and never looked back. There are a lot of details I'm leaving out but I can basically tell you that my XH was a serial cheater and I had no reason to think he'd ever be a faithful H. There were reasons that I did not immediately divorce him after those first three d-days, but mostly the reason was that we had children together.

I also don't think he is capable of real remorse. But my situations have nothing to do with anybody else's situations and I don't recommend that anybody live their life based on my experiences.

[This message edited by Bobbi_sue at 5:37 PM, March 20th (Tuesday)]

Skins- you are stating what situations you could entertain R, but thats not the same as what someone else is wanting or willing to do. Its a personal decision.

Its not up to you what anyone else wants to try. You get to choose for you as others get to choose for themselves.

The relationship is dead and gone by that time anyways

says who? Mine sure isn't dead and buried, its very much alive and well.

How many people "reconcile" but are unhappy in their marriage now? The point isn't just to stay but to fix the broken shit and be happy together again somehow. Anything short of that is a waste of time and you're better moving on without WS IMO

I am in reconciliation-because I don't believe you are ever finished being reconciled. I am happy. Very happy. If my WS was not remorseful and doing what he can to show me he has changed and wanted to fix us-then I would never have considered R. But he has.

Also btw-none of the instances above were mistakes. They are all choices. ONS or LTS etc- all choices.

[This message edited by deephurt at 5:46 PM, March 20th (Tuesday)]

Skins, my ex covered a lot of the bases. More than 20, in our bed, unprotected, escalated with things we didn’t do. Add in sex with both of us, me second, on the same day.

Even with that I wish I had it in me to have been able to get over my pain and reconciled. My family would be intact, I would have twice the money, and I could delete online dating apps. I just couldn’t. That doesn’t mean others shouldn’t. Perhaps they were not raised with the same pride issues I was as I am older than most here.

Others have gone on to happy marriages. I do confess from a male perspective I don’t know how, but who am I to judge. They are still married and I’m single.

Bottom line is everyone is different and your set of rules don’t work for everyone. I will say you have every right to walk away with your head held high with no regrets

Skins - I'm so sorry you are having to make this decision. It sucks. You can walk away knowing that you did try - and you did! Now you can work on moving on without the baggage of feeling like you need to try to R.

I think every person has a line in their head. Every person's line is different, and I think those lines can change. For me, if my WH *had* slept with his cOW, I would have had to walk away. The EA part was devastating, but the mind movies of their kiss have been torturous. I can't kiss my WH during sex. Still. I'm at 11.5 months past DDay. If there was any more physical stuff, I know it would be a deal breaker for me. As much as he's done the work, as much as he's changed, as great as our marriage is now, I'd still be okay walking away. It's my line.

That said I am in awe of people being able to move past other situations like sex, LTAs, multiple As, etc. Every situation is different and every BS has their own limits. You reached yours on DDay, it just took you a while to realize it.

I wish you peace and strength going forward. It takes strength to R or D and I'm glad you feel clear in your decision.

How much value do you place on sex/intimacy?

Very little. We no longer have intimacy it's impossible on my end now.I'm ok with just having sex.

What factors the most in giving your spouse a second chance?

The kids and not wanting to split time with them or introduce new partners to them. Also financial stability.

How can you ever trust your "partner" to be safe ever again?

I don't it's as simple as that. If another A happens I will not be surprised if that makes sense and will file immediately for D.

My H would not be a candidate for anything, according to one poster on this thread.

He certainly wouldn't be a candidate for R, according to several others.

And yet, as I was catching up on the last 3 pages of this thread, I was listening as he was counseling another WH on the phone. My H, who cheated and lied and shredded me several times, is mentoring several men who want what he has. Men who also made horrible, disastrous choices but refuse to stay in that place or to be "that guy" for one more minute. My H, who used to be a selfish man who refused to donate to any sort of charity because "nobody ever offered me a free ride", is preparing to go to Nicaragua this summer to work in a mission providing for families of fishermen and for human trafficking victims. The man who used to lie by default is now the most honest and trustworthy person I know.

It is possible for people to change. It's possible for marriages to change, families to change. I am sorry for those who wanted R but didn't get it, for whatever reason.

How did I learn to trust him again? When he was willing to be completely transparent, completely open. When he was willing to answer the same question 200 times and the answer never changed. When he welcomed and encouraged me to check up on him and verify his location and it always checked out, 100% of the time. We've been in true R for almost 6 years now and I have no reservations, no escape hatch, no doubts.

That being said, I also don't believe that R is possible or desirable for everyone. I'd never criticise or denigrate someone for choosing D immediately or eventually. I wouldn't make a statement that all people who choose D are just not strong enough, or not committed enough. I wouldn't post that people who D are likely to regret it or to be alone the rest of their lives. Those statements have about as much basis in fact as the generalizations that have been thrown around here already.

*Posting as a member*

How different would this thread be if OP had instead said "I don't want to R with my wife" or "My WW isn't worth a second chance"? It would have resulted in 6 pages of support for his pain...questions asking him to share his struggles and advice on his next steps. There would also be encouragement for his vent - to let it all out. Because only skins can decide if he wants to R or D his wife.

Instead, he chose to use words like ALL as in ALL waywards and YOUR as in YOUR wayward....and this is a big reason why generalizations are a violation. Because it polarizes the board. Instead of a constructive thread that helps the OP and others sharing his pain - instead it creates battles and animosity.

I am not PRO-R OR PRO-D...I'm PRO-HEALING. I am PRO-CLARITY and PRO-TRUTH. Even though I am happily R'd and know others who've successfully R'd despite horrific trauma - I have never in my 5000+ posts - EVER - told a member they must reconcile. I've never said divorce is pointless or weak or anything negative. A member hell bent on D has never heard me criticize that decision. I try to support their personal inclinations. I try to point out aspects to be wary of - and incidents that will make R more difficult and I've stated that a WS seems remorseful - but even then, I always assure the BS that they are free to decide if the A is a dealbreaker. So I struggle to understand why some members feel inclined to tell others that R is impossible or even define under which circumstances it's acceptable. I DECIDE THAT FOR ME. Just as each of us are free to do.

Generalizations are such a waste of energy...Focus on YOU and YOUR situation. Vent about YOU and YOUR options, because I struggle to see anything productive come from this thread. Lots of defending...lots of frustration - and that's not a decent pay off for the amount of energy expended. Get your money's worth...don't create distractions by generalizing.

JMHO

[This message edited by SI Staff at 9:44 PM, March 20th (Tuesday)]

Skins, it sounds like this has really been a deal breaker for you and despite your best efforts to R, at the end of the day, you're still done. I get it, and I support your choice 100%.

Why would you want to stay with your abuser as a trauma victim?

Well, there's many reasons for me, but ultimately I'm doing it for my kids. My youngest has autism and does not cope with change, seeing his family torn apart would traumatise him and I'm not willing to do that. If my circumstances were different I would have called time of death 4 years ago. But it is what it is. I do believe that true R is possible, and you'll find many couples here that can attest to that.

Sorry skins... I understand. I wonder if I’m wasting my time.

" you are stating what situations you could entertain R, but thats not the same as what someone else is wanting or willing to do. Its a personal decision.

Its not up to you what anyone else wants to try. You get to choose for you as others get to choose for themselves."

this.

I had two ddays, no confession but a rebuilt marriage and I'm very happy.

so, your advice?

What makes the second betrayal worse than the first?

I'm of the opinion that if someone can see the pain caused the first time and still do it again, there's a lack of compassion needed for reconciliation.

That would of course apply to second ddays caused by more cheating and not necessarily second ddays caused by tt.

The only circumstances that I believe R is possible is if:

Followed by a list of “acceptable” affairs…

I think posts like this are comparable to crashing a party where the hosts still welcome you – despite never having asked you in or you even knocking on the door asking for access. Once in double-dipping the chips, spilling the wine, complaining about the decorations and then finally puking on the dining-room table.

Considering our hosts here on SI are a reconciled couple.

Considering that amongst the mods and guides are WS and BS.

Considering key members that contribute side by side are BS and WS, divorced and reconciled.

That wasn't a list of "acceptable" affairs. It was a list of "recoverable affairs". Meaning not much emotional/mental trauma has occurred, there wasn't the most severe betrayal and breach of trust and the affair didn't get to the level of a relationship with the affair partner.

The name of this site is SURVIVING infidelity. It's not endorsing reconciling or divorcing but just making it through one of the worst things that someone can experience in their lifetime.

It takes a truly sick individual to be involved in the more severe affairs. The ones that involved depraved sex acts, complete disrespect of the BS and their home, long-term affairs, affairs with friends or relatives ect. Those affairs are on a whole different level of destruction and are the most likely to end the marriage.

I like the analogy to murder because that's exactly what it is. Affairs are really just premeditated destruction of the marriage. Everything was thought out, planned and executed behind the back of the BS. Someone who can do this has severe mental/emotional issues and will have a difficult time being rehabilitated and change that type of thinking/behavior.

In my opinion it's not worth the time or effort to waste on trying to reconcile with this type of person. Are there cases where people truly reform and live as a changed safe partner afterwards? ...sure that can happen but it's extremely rare!