SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

How much value do you place on sex/intimacy?

A lot.

What factors the most in giving your spouse a second chance?

The good years we had before the A, and the quality of the intimacy we had prior to the year of the A (and also after that year up through now). The biggest factor was of course his extreme remorse. He "wears" his remorse. My H is the type that makes people a little nauseated with his constant compliments. I'm almost 59 and it has been 12 years since "that year." Yet every day he goes on and on about how beautiful and sexy I am and how glad he is that I gave him that chance, and how I'm his best friend, he would not know what to do with out me, and on and on and on...every single day. I'm not kidding.

How can you ever trust your "partner" to be safe ever again?

After being cheated on in two marriages, I have promised myself I will never be foolish enough to trust another human being 100% again, but I trust my H about 99%. I trust him NOT to cheat far more than I would trust some new person I could potentially take up with if my marriage ended. He is a safe partner because I just about always know right where he is and for 12 years he has been transparent, telling me that I can check on him any time, anyplace, anywhere, check his phone, computers, car, garage, or anything I want. And that goes for the rest of our lives.

Good luck skins. I kind of feel the same... but my kid changes the equation for me (at least right now). No doubt that I'd be out if I didn't have that consideration... and I might end up that way in any event.

For me the sex/intimacy was my biggest sticking point and the reason why I'll never be able to forgive. Some people know my story but going through that kind of gut wrenching betrayal is completely unforgivable and it haunts my mind daily.

Skins, you've answered your own question. FOR YOU this is your line in the sand. The thing you will never forgive or get over. And that is okay. If you truly feeling this way, then you really have no other choice than to call it a day and move on with your life. You can feel at peace knowing you did what was best for you in your situation. This is all each of us can do in our own situation.

Taking umbrage with his broad strokes of the pen is just stoking argument.

Not exactly. Obtaining posting privileges on SI requires an agreement to adhere to the guidelines, one of which is to avoid (over-)generalizing. At least 2 posters on this thread have violated that guideline.

How much value do you place on sex/intimacy?

Immense.

What factors the most in giving your spouse a second chance?

She started doing the work she needed to do immediately, even though I wasn't committing to R.

We had many healthy bonds holding us together, and our neuroses were compatible.

The M vows meant, to me, that I could not turn my back to her, unless that's what she wanted - this was the 'worse' part of 'for better or worse'.

How can you ever trust your "partner" to be safe ever again?

The work she has done since d-day has made her essentially as safe as any partner can be, IMO. If she fucks up again, I know I'll weather the storms.

I guess I'm responsible for my own safety, IMO.

I'm saying that changing for the better is a long, difficult road that many if not most WS never fully complete for various reasons.

I believe there's no 'complete'. I believe change is constant.

I also believe some changes can happen pretty quickly, and I'm happy with constant improvement. My W can't be perfect; neither can I. The best we can do is 'a next right thing.' That's good enough for me.

<ore important, you don't 'wait' for the WS to change. You (re)build a (new) M with your WS. That means you have constant knowledge of how the WS is changing. If what you're building doesn't serve both of you, either one of you can pull the plug.

It's such a huge gamble to waste several more years waiting for your WS to become the partner you've always wanted.

Gently, you're not thinking straight. Yeah, R is a gamble, but so is the next person you are attracted to.

Unless the change comes from a willingness of the WS to become a better person, to dig deep to find what their flaws are and own and fix them on their own I don't see any possibility of anything improving enough as the years go on.

Well, I can see some improvement, but I agree - R works best if the WS works to resolve her issues for herself.

I just don't see many WS with the intrinsic motivation to right all of their wrongs and to put in the work of fixing themselves mentally, emotionally and physically.

Um...exactly how many WSes do you know intimately enough to make any judgment at all about WSes in general?

Skins, I get that you're in excruciating pain. But I think you're reacting to your emotions (especially fear, I suspect), and I think you may be screwing yourself.

I urge you to ID what you really want and start from there. There is no risk-free way forward ... but there never has been and never will be.

[This message edited by sisoon at 12:26 PM, March 20th (Tuesday)]

SMS- the studies/stats are not plentiful and never perfect. University of Colorado grad student's research came up with: "Many unfaithful partners tend to be repeat offenders. The longitudinal study followed participants over the course of five years, checking in with them every four to six months to ask questions about their love life. Not only did 32 percent of people admit to being unfaithful, but—and here’s the kicker—out of those who reported cheating in the initial relationship, a whopping 45 percent went on to cheat again in a subsequent relationship.

And complicating the issue is this tidbit: Another interesting finding in the research suggests that people who’ve been betrayed in the past are more likely to date a philanderer again down the line.

And perhaps even more distressing: Those who suspected that their partner was cheating without knowing for sure were 10 times more likely to be suspicious in their next relationship.

Another article indicated infidelity occurred in relationships more often if one's parents had infidelity in their marriage.

What does this research indisputably prove: That infidelity messes us up.

skins21, the only one who has to be satisfied with your decision is you. No one 'owes' a WS a chance at reconciliation.

NTV hit the nail on the head... folks he’s not calling you all ou For trying to R... he is yelling his battle cry... Jesus he’s just venting, not personally attacking you. My vote? Let him spew it out instead of festering. I’m nogoing quite sure many of you know his story, and out Of respect for him, I won’t repeat it, but I’ll just say the depth of his wife’s infidelity was downright cruel and intentional. She wanted to hurt him. My wife’s betrayal was a fraction of what skins wife did and I was ready to kill the OM literally. So perhaps some compassion, and reading his story, is importan before jumping down his throat. What she did was utterly dehumanizing, emasculating, humiliating and abhorrent.

The guy deserves to be happy, and frankly, if you know what she did, he Happiness shouldn’t matter to him at all.

No one is debating his right to be happy or divorce. No one is calling him out and I don’t think anyone thinks he is calling anyone else out.

He made a very generalized statement and people are commenting on that. Not to mention it’s agajnst guidelines to do so.

I didn’t take offense to what he said but here’s the thing. Newbies read here and generalizing line that may affect the wrong people the wrong way. Just saying.

@Ratpicker, thank you for sharing. I have spent more hours reading about infidelity in the last 8 years than all the reading I have done in my previous five decades, which is quite a bit as I was a voracious reader. I have read countless research and studies on cheaters and probabilities of reoffending.

As you have said, most are imperfect. I would respond to the study you are citing as an unknown because of those that cheated, how many confessed to their partner they cheated and did they do the work on themselves to become a non-cheater? So many variables.

What does this research indisputably prove: That infidelity messes us up.

That is an indisputable fact, I agree, Ratpicker.

eta: to fix Ratpickers name as autocorrect wants to call you "Ragpicker"

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 1:19 PM, March 20th (Tuesday)]

I agree with everything nicenomore stated in his last response. This is why I earlier suggested we might be "drowning the baby in the bathwater" (as opposed to "throwing out").

He made a very generalized statement and people are commenting on that. Not to mention it’s against guidelines to do so.

Not necessarily singling you out, deephurt...I am quoting you because you so succinctly expressed what I think is the consensus of some of the "objectors".

Look, if you didn't know me prior to my last year of posting then let me say that I was once very pro-R. VERY. Because I don't believe we can group people into neat, tidy boxes based on singular behavior...and it is fundamental to my own faith in humanity to believe that everyone can change. I still hold that belief. In fact, it's a scientific criterion to classify an object as a living organism. But when it comes to the likelihood of a WS, specifically in regards to infidelity, I think we have to also give just as much credence to the old adage that the best predictor of future behavior is indeed past behavior.

From my years of experience on SI - which is certainly my experience and I don't have the actual hard data to back up my opinion - I think most BSs step into their new reality with a rather simplistic approach: How do I get things back to how they use to be? Where we are capable of change as human beings, we aren't necessarily eager to embrace change. That doesn't matter which side of the equation we find ourselves. We see all kinds of responses that suggest the BS is more eager to look at the WS's behavior as a momentary aberration of character rather than an indication. We ask what remorse should look like, we question if TTing counts as a new d-day, and we buy a zillion "Not Just Friends" books to try to convey how damaging their behavior was. Hell...it's been over 12 years of lies and 16 months of separation for me and I still check to see if the SI username I registered for him in September 2008 has any posts. (It doesn't.)

Some of you have truly remorseful spouses. That's a game-changer. But many of us have spouses that have behaved incomprehensibly. Not just because they promised to love and cherish us forever...but because they are just basic humans, goddamn it. What we've experienced doesn't just rock our marriages...it rocks the very foundation of our beliefs in humanity. It's truly incomprehensible. So we need some way to isolate this experience. As bad as it sounds, as much as I dislike generalizations, I can see the merit in this perspective. In a strange kind of way, it's a salvation of humanity itself. Can you see this...if only because you yourself know the pain of being a betrayed spouse? Can you take that pain and now imagine it tenfold, a hundred-fold? Because that's what I experienced in my latest "awakening". That he could not only do what he did. But that he could watch my pain, my writhing on the floor, my subsequent health issues, my disassociation with the core of who I was - and then take a nap, eat a sandwich, and go find a new OW. THIS is what created the ten-fold, the hundred-fold pain. The cheating itself became inconsequential.

I feel compassion for those of you in R. and reading my story. I know...I scare the shit out of you. I know because it once scared the shit out of me. I get that it takes a lot of compassion to stand and support someone when they are scaring the shit out of you. I know its easier to task me with proving my experience, my new reality, with scientific data...or it's easy to distract the message I carry with how I deliver it. But that doesn't change the essence of the truth that my experience speaks to. Maybe it's not your spouse, your experience...or maybe it is. Unfortunately, if it is, you will probably find out in the same soul-crushing, blindsiding way that I did. I sincerely hope you never do. (< That's compassion.) Because I sincerely hope and wish to believe that more WSs than not, DO change...do become the thing mine was only pretending to become. But if they're not, if they are just pretending, pulling you further and further into the dark labyrinth, then I wish to do the only thing that I can possibly do now to contribute anything to the greater good, to bring any meaning and purpose out of my own experience - and that is to warn you that this darkness does indeed exist. And while I cannot give you the road to Eden, I can tell you where I first took my wrong turn to hell....I can tell you where my first road sign that foretold what was to come.

If that doesn't move you then come down to D&S and ask the people what is their biggest regret. Overwhelmingly, the answers are not that they wish they had never met or married their WS. Their answers are simply: I wished I had divorced/left him or her sooner. More specifically, I wish I had not wasted so much of my life on a cheater. These are largely people that have healed from their experiences, have found faith again in humanity as a whole. But still live with the regret of time - and more importantly, effort - spent pouring their love and good will into an empty bucket. Additionally, if asked about future loves/potential mates, most would also tell you they would never date a past cheater. If you were to lose your reconciled marriage for some reason, would you date a past cheater? Because in your own rhetorical answer to that lies your right - or not - to pick up a stone to throw at a "generalizer".

[This message edited by truthsetmefree at 2:28 PM, March 20th (Tuesday)]

You don't scare the shit out of me, Truthsetmefree. I feel you are in a lot of pain and you are speaking from that place.

You know, even if my FWH cheats again, there are two things. I will know exactly what I need to do this time around and I won't agonize over it and second, we had at least 8 more good years of marriage and we raised our children in an intact family. I won't regret these years at all.

If you were to lose your reconciled marriage for some reason, would you date a past cheater? Because in your own rhetorical answer to that lies your right - or not - to pick up a stone to throw at a "generalizer".

It all depends. First of all, I don't feel I would want any long term relationship with anyone. But, IDK. Second, I don't feel I can say outright I wouldn't date someone who cheated on a partner. There would be a lot of variables.

You know, even if my FWH cheats again, [.....] we had at least 8 more good years of marriage

What if finding out your husband "cheats again" actually entails finding out that your husband had never stopped cheating...that those "eight good years" actually were filled with continued betrayals the entire time?

See - and again I really do have my prior perspective that once very much aligned with your current perspective (in fact, I said almost those same words) - as part of discovering false R. many of us don't just have "a" new d-day...our spouse doesn't simply "cheat again". We come to learn that the cheating never stopped. Ever. That to me is what false reconciliation means - the reconciliation itself was never real.

ETA:

We believe we are in reconciliation. We have doubts. We wonder if maybe we just aren't healing fast enough. We explore what we believe may be our contributing FOO issues. We do marriage counseling. We do all those things to create a better, stronger marriage - because unlike our prior selves, we no longer just believe "oh my spouse would never do that". We may even pride ourselves on our own strength...claim that we no longer have blind trust. We now know better. But we don't know enough. And when the crap all shakes out and we finally learn, we realize that we bet again on the wrong horse - except this time we feel we should have known better.

Discovery after reconciliation is an entirely different beast. Yes...you are better able to handle the crushing pain of the betrayal itself. That's familiar territory. But it's the realization that they could deceive you again, hidden under the guise of working on the marriage. That's the toughest part to date fro me.

[This message edited by truthsetmefree at 3:03 PM, March 20th (Tuesday)]

skins...

Can I ask...

What kind of dog did your mom find for you in your new journey???

True, truthsetmefree, but I am not prepared to live my life adhering to "what if's". Living in the present with the knowledge that I have now is the only way I can live my life.

Sorry...didn't mean to interject in that interaction.

Sorry...didn't mean to interject in that interaction.

What kind of dog did your mom find for you in your new journey???

It's called a snorkie. Half schnauzer and yorkie. I'm picking him up this weekend!

It's called a snorkie.

That sounds adorable...and a handful!

If you were to lose your reconciled marriage for some reason, would you date a past cheater? Because in your own rhetorical answer to that lies your right - or not - to pick up a stone to throw at a "generalizer".

We didn’t even bother to reconcile after I was caught cheating, and yet my husband not only dated a past cheater but (re)married one. I absolutely wouldn’t have blamed him had he not, but I’m glad he did. I wish I could get an anonymous (read: honest) answer from him as to whether HE’S glad, but I hope he is.

I hope every BS does what’s right for them. If that’s reconciling, great. If it’s divorcing, great.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 4:23 PM, March 20th (Tuesday)]

SMS, I feel like you are talking out of both sides of your mouth here. On one hand, you disagree that an affair is unrecoverable, but on the other hand...

I will know exactly what I need to do this time around and I won't agonize over it and second

What makes the second betrayal worse than the first? What is unrecoverable about that situation that wasn't in the first? People here are really just saying the same thing about their first affair that you are saying about your second.

I know that there are people that disagree with me, and that's fine, but I think that there are some situations that are (read: should be) unrecoverable. There are betrayals that are simply too much. Maybe there are guys here that would be fine after finding out their wife let them go down on them after the OM came inside them, but I guess I'm not one. Furthermore, the HINT of any infidelity or "flexible morality" in that area in any future relationships is an immediate stop for me. There's no one worth it.