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My WH love language is sex/intimacy. He didn't feel he received it at the frequency which was acceptable to him, so he sought out more, lots more, logical right? Supply and demand inequity, so he sought greater supply. Hurt me any less because it is mathematically logical? Nope.

Great question, and probably a big part of why I have these kinds of conversations. I feel like if I understand it, I can prevent/control it. Take your example, there was a logical (if awful) reason your H did it. There's a way you can prevent it from happening again (more sex) that you can choose to engage in (now, I would not in this situation, but, you have a choice because you understand the reasons behind it. You know WHY, and once you know the why, you can dig back and say "here's how to prevent that" or, if not that, "here's what led to it". And no matter what you choose to do with that information, it's incredibly valuable (at least to me) to understand the reasoning. What I'm hearing and what I'm coming to believe, it's not logical. Your H made a logical decision, a terrible one, but a logical one. My W did not, and that, if I'm honest, scares the s**t out of me. Because if it's logical, it can't be prevented/stopped in the future, it's all about "feelings" without a logical underpinning. No, it won't hurt any less. But I'll understand, and that's a potent salve for my wounds (in all areas, not just in an A).

It seems to me as though the most hurtful piece for you is that your wife gave something to her AP which she didn't give to you, more sex, different sex etc. and you are trying to make the pieces fit logically as to why/how that could have been. What difference would it make if it did "make sense"? What would a different answer from her mean to you?

Depends what her answer was. Let me give you some examples that I would consider logical reasons. "I don't love you/love you as much as I did him".. OK, sad to say, but we need to D (and this is my #1 fear, that this is the real answer). "I love to have sex, but I just didn't think that was acceptable for a married woman". Awesome, saddle up, let's have fun. "He was just really great in bed". Not awesome, but perhaps salvageable, I can learn and would like her to think that about me.

There are a million other answers, of course, those are just examples. Those would be logical reasons to act as she did and would have a real impact on our relationship (or lack thereof) moving forward. What I have now are answers that don't make logical sense, so I have no idea what to do with them. "It wasn't about the sex" (when 80% of what they did was have sex). That's not logical. And I know other posters have explained it well, how that may be the real answer, but I use it to illustrate my point, there's no "action" I can take with that as the answer because it doesn't make any sense. It would be like robbing a bank and saying you didn't want the money, you just wanted the thrill of robbing the bank. How do you understand something like that? Yes, I know there are people who do exactly that, hurt/kill people just for the thrill of it, but I can't understand that mentality at all. I understand the guy robbing the bank for money, just like I understand the AP having an A for sex. You rob banks because that's where they keep the cash, and you have A's because that's where the sex is. But, when you step outside of that, logic starts to fall apart, and then I can't understand it anymore.

My WH knows my line in the sand is if there was connection, love, feelings, I would be done. He wants to keep me, so no way he is going to admit that, even if it were true. It was all about the sex, period and hey, well that's logical too, so it must be true!

First off, before I dig into this, it probably is true. But, let's turn it around. Your H tells you what he did (it was all for sex) but then, you find 100's of pages of love letters. Plans to leave you. Talk about their future together. Basically, you find evidence that it was much more emotional than expected. Then, the kicker. You find out they never even had sex! Well, WTF? How could it be all about the sex if that's not even something they did?? (Now, this analogy is slanted, there was "emotional stuff" going on during the A, but there was way more sex than emotional).

That's where I sit, and I think a lot of other BS's who get the "not for sex" speech. But that's all you did! I'm not negating what I've already heard, there are good explanations of it, just reiterating my confusion around this issue.

In that scenario, and the fact this thread has many men saying they weren't getting enough sex, I do stand by making mention of this.

I hear you, I am just frustrated by this advice at times. There are a lot of men that have heard this advice and other advice like it (choreplay anyone?) and there are times that it just doesn't work. There are women that are just plain selfish (men too, but in the context of this discussion).

The implication is what, that if they had a more healthy sexual relationship, she might not have strayed? I beg to differ. People don't have affairs because they have unsatisfying relationships, they have affairs because they are black-holes for validation.

Here is the only list we need for why anyone has an affair.

1. I was selfish

Otherwise, I agree, there at some point needs to be some coming together to make a relationship work. That said, sorry to be this blunt, if a WW wants this kind of attention from her husband, maybe she shouldn't have had an affair. I'd be hard pressed at this point to be convinced to put that kind of effort after seeing how easy it was for someone else to get into her pants.

[This message edited by xhz700 at 11:02 AM, July 3rd (Tuesday)]

xhz700 -

If his WW wants to stay in the marriage, maybe she can provide some fuel to get things going again?

Shortly after dday, I agree.

But I took hikingout's advice as talking about a time after the initial shock is over and when couples start to rebuild a mutual relationship.

Ultimately, to stay around, both people are going to have needs to sustain the marriage. I wanted to be pursued a LOT the first year or so, but I personally need balance in a relationship for it to work. I like to chase my wife around -- it is fun I need sometimes.

And in that sense:

I am saying this in case it is helpful - do you want more sex? Then love on her without expectations. Foreplay is all day.

This concept that has helped rebuild my marriage into something worth being around for -- and is also decent advice for SI members who have divorced and are starting over too, as a good way to build (or rebuild) intimacy.

Getting back to RIO's original question to start the thread, I wondered the same exact thing, and have gained a lot from the discussion. I first could not understand a seemingly bad trade on my wife's part -- boiling it down to mere compliments for hardcore sex.

I now believe every single relationship (short term, long term, friendship, illicit infidelity, marriage, etc.) on the planet is based on one thing -- connection. My football buds, we connect cheering on the Broncos. My extended family is far less connected after we lost my Dad to cancer, he was the glue. My wife missed the connection in our marriage -- NOT AN EXCUSE TO CHEAT -- and she found it with a friend of the family. Ugh.

Now, in order to R, we've rebuilt a stronger connection based on healing the marriage together, despite the fact she broke it.

But I took hikingout's advice as talking about a time after the initial shock is over and when couples start to rebuild a mutual relationship.

Again, I agree with the advice, and I am not arguing with it.

I hear you, I am just frustrated by this advice at times. There are a lot of men that have heard this advice and other advice like it (choreplay anyone?) and there are times that it just doesn't work. There are women that are just plain selfish (men too, but in the context of this discussion).

Especially when compared to the A. Whenever I see a WW say (and Hiking, this is NOT you) something like "I had an A because my H would't pay attention to me, or didn't value me enough to take out the trash"... Did the AP take out the trash? Did the AP pay attention to you outside of warming you up for/having sex? And a lot of A's include this element, the most egregious being the "I need a lot of handholding/love/romance/warming up for sex" and then the A sexual details read like "Met up in an alley, dropped pants, had sex". Well, which is it? Because all this choreplay/warm up/touch without sex stuff goes right out the window when an AP enters the picture.

I guess fundamentally, it's hard for me to understand because I'm a pretty consistent person. I know what I want and I know what I'd want from an A. If I had an A, I would be my W would say "don't bother" writing down the sexual details, she'd know what it would look like. She might be interested in what I said to her, but, I think she knows me well enough, and my past well enough to know that those words would be meaningless. Basically, I'd be the same person. My W, however, became a totally different person. And maybe I view my hypothetical A incorrectly. Maybe I would be the guy writing sonnets and not caring about the sex. But I sincerely doubt it. I would be the same person with the AP that I have been with GF's in the past, only probably quite a bit more ruthless in my use of lies/misdirection to get what I was after.

Getting back to RIO's original question to start the thread, I wondered the same exact thing, and have gained a lot from the discussion. I first could not understand a seemingly bad trade on my wife's part -- boiling it down to mere compliments for hardcore sex.

Another prefect synopsis of what I'm feeling, thank you. Only thing I'd add "mere compliments FROM A KNOWN LIAR for hardcore sex". You have to know an AP's word isn't to be trusted, because.. Well, they are cheaters.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 11:11 AM, July 3rd (Tuesday)]

Your H tells you what he did (it was all for sex) but then, you find 100's of pages of love letters. Plans to leave you. Talk about their future together. Basically, you find evidence that it was much more emotional than expected. Then, the kicker. You find out they only had sex once or twice! Well, WTF? How could it be all about the sex if they barely even had sex?? [I changed your quote slightly to make it mirror your situation better]

One logical conclusion is that the initial statement ("It was all for sex") was not the truth.

Is it possible that one of the reasons this is bothering you so much is that you don't believe you have the truth from your WW?

By the way, another logical conclusion would be that he was so laser focused on the sex that he was willing to do anything to get it. In the end, he forgot about the stuff he did to get the sex because, in his mind, it was indeed all about the sex.

Consistent with the second version, it's possible that he enjoyed the emotional stuff, a lot. It wasn't his personal focus, but it was enjoyable and he did it because, hey, it feels good and in the end he's getting the sex he wanted.

I would be the same person with the AP that I have been with GF's in the past, only probably quite a bit more ruthless in my use of lies/misdirection to get what I was after.

I think you just answered your own question, man.

Your WW was just more ruthless with sex to get what she was after.

Maybe I would be the guy writing sonnets and not caring about the sex. But I sincerely doubt it. I would be the same person with the AP that I have been with GF's in the past, only probably quite a bit more ruthless in my use of lies/misdirection to get what I was after.

We often hear men say some version of the following about a woman whom they consider highly hot (that is, physically/sexually attractive): "I'd eat a mile of her shit just to get to the place it comes from." You might be more "ruthless", but being ruthless would involve figuring out how to get her to drop her draw's. This might involve writing sonnets. Lawd knows I wrote some utterly disingenuous sonnets, or other billets doux, back in my single days where I though it might yield some time inside the panties.

Seriously, though, all of this hypothetical discussion is interesting, but it can go round and round without connection to a real person. What is critical is what your WW says to you, what you ask her, whether you believe her. We know that waywards minimize and prevaricate, especially if they want to R. They will say whatever they think they need to say to avoid hurting their betrayed. My sense is that this issue bugs you so much because you don't believe you have truth about this specific issue from your WW. That is, you don't believe you have her personal truth about this. Have you had this discussion with her?

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 11:25 AM, July 3rd (Tuesday)]

Your WW was just more ruthless with sex to get what she was after.

Awesome point! That really helped drive home some of it. But (there's always a but), while I think your 100% correct, she didn't need to be! If all she wanted (as she claims) is someone to tell her she's beautiful/sexy/smart/etc, the OM would have provided that for a long time with the promise of sex, rather than the XXX exploits. To pull it back to my analogy, it would be the H writing the sonnets when the woman would regularly say to him "Loved the poem, but would you please get over here and F me". She already got it, the "pure EA" part that she says she was after. There wasn't any reason to "lie" and have sex, she was already getting what she was after (before the sex started).

That said, I think you're pretty close to the mark here, A's are like bare knuckle boxing, the lies are weapons grade as is the sex. Everyone is functioning at their most basic level, say whatever and do whatever to get what you want. But I want that for me! I doubt many BS's want their WS's to lie to them like and AP, but I can sure tell you, I want to be f**ked like one! I want the weapons grade/do anything sex for us!

That is, you don't believe you have her personal truth about this. Have you had this discussion with her?

Many times. However, this is one of those issues where I think that I'll just never be able to trust her on. There's far to much to gain by lying. Certain answers, which may be the real reasons, are just "there's no coming back" answers. Which is why I started this thread. Things that I feel she'll answer truthfully, as much as I love you all, I don't need your input on. Areas where lies could be the only "right answer" yeah, I need to get other perspectives on it to see if I can believe what I'm being told. See if it lines up with what other women (who have no incentive to lie to me) did/felt during their A.

You might be more "ruthless", but being ruthless would involve figuring out how to get her to drop her draw's. This might involve writing sonnets.

It certainly might (perhaps even likely would) require writing sonnets. Which is all fine if you come at it consistently, I was after sex, sonnets were a way to get it. That would all wrap up nicely and make sense. What wouldn't make sense is me writing those sonnets to OW after she'd said "please shut up and come over here and F me". I already had a "yes", I was already getting the sex I was after (or, in my W's case, the EA that she says she was after, the affirmation, the kind words, etc), why the hell go and write a sonnet. Especially if I knew my wife loved my poetry and considered it an important part of our relationship. No, I totally get doing things to get what you want, but, if you're already getting what you want (emotions, sex, etc) why do things you say you don't want to do (kinky sex, sonnets, etc) especially when you know those things are very valuable to your partner? You wanted words, you got them, be happy. You wanted sex, you got that, be happy. Why go further? And incidentally, we're now back to the original intent of this post! ;)

[This message edited by Rideitout at 11:34 AM, July 3rd (Tuesday)]

The first time my wife went physical (making out in his truck) was the day after she told me that she had told him she couldn't take it physical. Her story goes that he told her that he needed to break it off then, but because she wanted the relationship to continue, she started into the physical on their next meet up.

So, in answer to your question on the "why" of it being physical, it was because she didn't want to lose the emotional connection she had been building.

Exactly, Cap. As a promiscuous young woman, I upped the sexual performance when the source of my ego kibbles were threatened.

I don't think that kind of hypothetical question will give you the solace you seek. The details and personal/emotional issues in every A are different. Your WW's motivation will necessarily involve the circumstances (both internal/personal and marital/relationship) that led to her stepping outside the marriage in the first place.

There is a branch of WW discussion here where the orthodoxy is, "I gave him the porn star experience because he said nice things that made me feel good. I wanted to hear more. A means to an end." I know you don't believe that, and speaking for myself as a betrayed man, I don't believe it either. WW on SI will respond by saying that men simply cannot understand women's sexuality. Convenient. Dostoyevsky talked about "miracle, mystery, and authority". He was using it to decry the church, but a similar line of thinking could apply to the statements of some women on this issue.

You and I know men enough to know that men would say those nice things if she just dangled the possibility of sex in front of him like a carrot on a stick. In other words, that SI orthodoxy is itself a demonstration that women simply cannot understand men's sexuality. Or, maybe they do understand men's sexuality and that orthodoxy is merely a convenience.

One of the hurts that springs from that line of bull comes from the emasculation that accompanies the reality that she was way more sexual with the AP than with the BH -- no matter what the reason.

But another hurt comes from the reality that she gave the AP this high level of sexuality because his pretty words made her feel loved and desired, which gave her a wide-on like she has never had for her BH. Meaning she felt way more desire for him.

The beleaguered BH is like: "I have cleaned the greasy disgusting mess out of the dishwasher trap every week for 30 years, without complaint; I changed a scrillion shitty diapers; I bring home 100% of my paycheck and don't spend a penny on useless stuff; I carried you to the hospital when you were sick and, after getting home, carried you to our bed and sat there for days taking care of you; I saved all of my spare money, putting aside my wants, to buy you that necklace you wanted; I cared for your ailing mother through her dying days, in our home, as if she was my own mother; I go to every tawdry chick flick at the theater you want to see; I spend umpteen hours shivering field side to coach our kids soccer team; I gave you my jacket on a cold day; I spend time every weekend completing the list of "honey-do's" you have for me; etc. In what universe is that cumulative body of devotion not a statement of love and desire a million times more emphatic than Romeo's cheap utterances? And that didn't make you feel loved? You get more wet for him than for me? WTF?"

The overwhelming temptation for most BH in those cases is: "Okay, bitch, get the fuck out and sustain yourself on his flattery. Hope it slakes that thirst. Knock yourself out. I'll share my day-in, day-out devotion and real life love with somebody who can appreciate it."

I hope your WW realizes that you resisted making that choice in giving her the gift of R.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 11:57 AM, July 3rd (Tuesday)]

Yes, the things Mrs. Walloped said earlier in the thread really bring a little more of this together. There were a number of complexities that brought the A together, finding what those specific complexities were and understanding them can be tremendously difficult. Yet, that's what both the WS and BS do who try and reconcile.

There is a branch of WW discussion here where the orthodoxy is, "I gave him the porn star experience because he said nice things that made me feel good. I wanted to hear more. A means to an end." I know you don't believe that, and speaking for myself as a betrayed man, I don't believe it either. WW on SI will respond by saying that men simply cannot understand women's sexuality. Convenient. Dostoyevsky talked about "miracle, mystery, and authority". He was using it to decry the church, but a similar line of thinking could apply to the statements of some women on this issue.

I think the thing to understand here is though in fact these things were traded and bartered, it was done unconsciously. Hindsight shows us things we really learn about the situation. The progression of an affair is a slippery slope that comes in singular moments and days. Until the full picture materializes, it looks only like connection. What the connection is, or why it is needed can vary greatly.

For me, I felt I hadn't been really "seen" in a long time. The reality? The AP wasn't really "seeing me" they were seeing what they wanted to see as well. My H really does see me, he is the one who knows me best, but I saw that quiet way of seeing me as a non-connection. I know when I was in the A, it wasn't having actual thoughts of "if I do x I will get z", if I had been anywhere at all enlightened about what I was actually doing, I wouldn't have believed any of it and it wouldn't have moved to physical that's for damned sure. That's where the power of it all was- I believed it.

So, hindsight, I can clearly see my actions progressing to keep things moving and going and the real motivations for it, but in the moment, no. You can't see that you are projecting things onto another person and they are doing the same to you. The mirroring is so uncanny you believe you are on the same wavelength but in reality you are talking in completely different languages.

The beleaguered BH is like: "I have cleaned the greasy disgusting mess out of the dishwasher trap every week for 30 years, without complaint; I changed a scrillion shitty diapers; I bring home 100% of my paycheck and don't spend a penny on useless stuff; I carried you to the hospital when you were sick and, after getting home, carried you to our bed and sat there for days taking care of you; I saved all of my spare money, putting aside my wants, to buy you that necklace you wanted; I cared for your ailing mother through her dying days, in our home, as if she was my own mother; I go to every tawdry chick flick at the theater you want to see; I spend umpteen hours shivering field side to coach our kids soccer team; I gave you my jacket on a cold day; I spend time every weekend completing the list of "honey-do's" you have for me; etc. In what universe is that cumulative body of devotion not a statement of love and desire a million times more emphatic than Romeo's cheap utterances? And that didn't make you feel loved? You get more wet for him than for me? WTF?"

So much truth in this statement. Who really ever had my back? My husband. So, every day I wonder how I forgot to appreciate all these acts of love. I forgot to remember what love really is. It's not words, it's actions. It's not a fairy tale, kismet, star-crossed lover thing...those only happen in our head. It's a real commitment, a real sense of family, friendship, and the passion and romance often quietly mixed in.

I guess fundamentally, it's hard for me to understand because I'm a pretty consistent person. I know what I want and I know what I'd want from an A. If I had an A, I would be my W would say "don't bother" writing down the sexual details, she'd know what it would look like. She might be interested in what I said to her, but, I think she knows me well enough, and my past well enough to know that those words would be meaningless. Basically, I'd be the same person. My W, however, became a totally different person. And maybe I view my hypothetical A incorrectly. Maybe I would be the guy writing sonnets and not caring about the sex. But I sincerely doubt it. I would be the same person with the AP that I have been with GF's in the past, only probably quite a bit more ruthless in my use of lies/misdirection to get what I was after.

Getting back to RIO's original question to start the thread, I wondered the same exact thing, and have gained a lot from the discussion. I first could not understand a seemingly bad trade on my wife's part -- boiling it down to mere compliments for hardcore sex.

Another prefect synopsis of what I'm feeling, thank you. Only thing I'd add "mere compliments FROM A KNOWN LIAR for hardcore sex". You have to know an AP's word isn't to be trusted, because.. Well, they are cheaters.

And maybe this is where true naivity seeps in for me. When we're growing up our parents teach us "boys will do anything, tell you anything to get in your pants". And you believe this, wholeheartedly. And, sometimes you believe the boy and still have sex. Sometimes that works out, but often not. But, after you get through with your 20's and 30's, and even 40's, you honestly think they have "grown out of that". I didn't realize that often men haven't. Yes, I knew it still existed out there somewhere. But, the AP in my situation presented himself in a mature way. I didn't realize that his maturity and experience just made him better at it.

This is also where the Mrs. Walloped comments come in. On this site, we do boil it down to ego kibbles and sexual favors. And in the big picture, this is true.

In the A at the time it's happening, things progress...it's not something that happens overnight (well for some of us anyway) you honestly see bit by bit this person is becoming important to you, and "evidence" the same is happening for him. You don't see there is actually an 18 year old boy stuck in this 50+ year old body that is using ploys and plays. You are being used. I didn't see any of that. And that's naïve, but that is the truth.

We know that's a lie - no one was really becoming more important to any one or vice versa. What is really happening is you are mirroring each other and becoming the people the other one is fantasizing that you are.

So hindsight and logic boils it down to unexplainable, because in reality that's what it really is. You can't explain the trajectory you were on (even though you shouldn't have been on it at all), and you can't explain the lies you told yourself, the person you are married to or even the AP for that matter. It's sick, distorted, and disgusting. It's not going to make sense to anyone.

Just know that there is a currency transaction there that occurred, it was unconscious or many wouldn't have had an affair, there were character flaws there in the first place that allowed the person to get on the slippery slope to begin with...and either the WS makes an effort to find those things that is concerted enough that you can actually see it and witness a change to it or you can't reconcile.

So, I guess RIO getting back to the crux of this whole string...I had sex with someone else after vowing not to. Doesn't matter if it was good or bad or somewhere in between - it could have been insufferable and it still would have been the same level of betrayal. I did it because I wanted to do it at the time. I was living out some stupid idea of a romance novel in my head and it made me feel very alive and very young. But, it came at the cost of everything I hold dear in life. I did all of it though, I pulled the trigger. I didn't value my husband enough not to do it. But, that didn't actually decrease my husband's value, it decreased mine. What becomes important here is what I do with that information now. Can't go back and change any of it. I can do better and be better, and either that will be enough to help us move through this terrible period of our life, or it won't. He will have every right to decide how he ultimately decides.

But, I think he has a better chance of it not trying to keep a scorecard about sex. I say that gently because sometimes I really wonder if you put your focus there because it's really what hurts you the most, or if it's really because it's not what hurts you the most and the easiest thing to focus on? I think you down deep know that the sex was a currency for her, and you can kind of accept that. It puts her a little more in the role of damsel in distress - she had these altruistic motives but the AP came and took advantage. It helps you not hate her? I don't know if I am right or wrong in any of this, but I honestly think it's not really the sex you are hung up on, but the feelings and reasons that led to the sex. If I am off base, I am sorry. And, if I am not...well you can't heal what you don't acknowledge.

Hiking: What you describe is the process of taking a lover. What we hear when WW describe the process, after the fact as you explain above, in reality is, in real time, taking a lover. In many relationships, including dating relationships while single, we analyze them after their demise for the realpolitik of what was bartered. This also goes to the distinction between explaining a thing and excusing it.

When two people start the relationship dance and become intertwined, they are both in almost all cases motivated by their individual interests -- what will they get out of it from the other person. For the most part, men, whether single or married, are motivated initially by a desire for sex. For men, the prospect of a longer term relationship usually tends to present itself as they begin to know the woman.

When they are single, women may sometimes be motivated by sex, but in my experience while single, usually there is some question of whether there will be a long-term relationship floating out there in the mix, at first just a question, but later if the relationship progresses, it begins to jell into an expectation.

This relationship piece has a different dynamic for a married woman. Unless the affair is an exit affair for her, the woman tries to hide it from her BH, for the purpose of preserving her M. The prospect of a long-term primary relationship with the AP is significantly diminished compared to when she is single. This is where BH's like RIO have so much difficulty. We men understand why single women give the porn star treatment to a man they are dating and trying to keep around. But when she is married and obviously trying to preserve the marriage (by for example lying to her BH and hiding the A), logically it doesn't seem like there is a relationship goal. I get it that there is a fantasy element, an escape, and we see many threads where a WW has reached a place of internalized despair (that she sometimes isn't even fully congizant of), but there is certainly an element whereby she is there because the sex is good.

I actually believe that for RIO it is the sex that hurts the most. The sex is something he consciously sacrificed as part of the balance of his M. In his heart this was something important that he gave his WW -- foregoing the lusty, joyous sex that for him is part of his love language. He is truly hurt by the reality that she chose to share this very love language with another man. The one thing she could have shared with him to tell him how much she loved him.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 2:29 PM, July 3rd (Tuesday)]

Hell of a post Butfor.

There is a branch of WW discussion here where the orthodoxy is, "I gave him the porn star experience because he said nice things that made me feel good. I wanted to hear more. A means to an end." I know you don't believe that, and speaking for myself as a betrayed man, I don't believe it either. WW on SI will respond by saying that men simply cannot understand women's sexuality. Convenient. Dostoyevsky talked about "miracle, mystery, and authority". He was using it to decry the church, but a similar line of thinking could apply to the statements of some women on this issue.

You and I know men enough to know that men would say those nice things if she just dangled the possibility of sex in front of him like a carrot on a stick. In other words, that SI orthodoxy is itself a demonstration that women simply cannot understand men's sexuality. Or, maybe they do understand men's sexuality and that orthodoxy is merely a convenience.

One of the hurts that springs from that line of bull comes from the emasculation that accompanies the reality that she was way more sexual with the AP than with the BH -- no matter what the reason.

But another hurt comes from the reality that she gave the AP this high level of sexuality because his pretty words made her feel loved and desired, which gave her a wide-on like she has never had for her BH. Meaning she felt way more desire for him.

The beleaguered BH is like: "I have cleaned the greasy disgusting mess out of the dishwasher trap every week for 30 years, without complaint; I changed a scrillion shitty diapers; I bring home 100% of my paycheck and don't spend a penny on useless stuff; I carried you to the hospital when you were sick and, after getting home, carried you to our bed and sat there for days taking care of you; I saved all of my spare money, putting aside my wants, to buy you that necklace you wanted; I cared for your ailing mother through her dying days, in our home, as if she was my own mother; I go to every tawdry chick flick at the theater you want to see; I spend umpteen hours shivering field side to coach our kids soccer team; I gave you my jacket on a cold day; I spend time every weekend completing the list of "honey-do's" you have for me; etc. In what universe is that cumulative body of devotion not a statement of love and desire a million times more emphatic than Romeo's cheap utterances? And that didn't make you feel loved? You get more wet for him than for me? WTF?"

The overwhelming temptation for most BH in those cases is: "Okay, bitch, get the fuck out and sustain yourself on his flattery. Hope it slakes that thirst. Knock yourself out. I'll share my day-in, day-out devotion and real life love with somebody who can appreciate it."

I hope your WW realizes that you resisted making that choice in giving her the gift of R.

I feel like if I understand it, I can prevent/control it.

The illusion of control. You can't. Trust me in that. My wife was a very good wife. She still is a good wife. I still cheated. Some people are just goldfish. Broken. You can't fill what she needs to fill for herself. There is no control and IMO there is no way to affair proof your marriage either. Why? Because it isn't about the marriage. It is about your wife's own personal short comings. Though you may not be able to see that if she is still feeding you the line that you weren't emotionally available to feed her. Then, the affair is about you and you not being able to feed her love language. Tit for tat. She isn't going to feed yours (sex) if you never reciprocated and fed her emotional needs. So, then I can see why you still focus on prevention/control. Which you shouldn't. Because it wasn't about you or what you didn't give her. It was about what she wasn't doing for herself. A healthy person doesn't cheat if they aren't getting outside validation. I had three woman feeding me attention at one time and even that wasn't enough for me. IMO you couldn't have prevented your wife from cheating. If she is still feeding you that BS line about the lack of emotional support from you, I would ask her to see past that and look at herself.

If all she wanted (as she claims) is someone to tell her she's beautiful/sexy/smart/etc, the OM would have provided that for a long time with the promise of sex, rather than the XXX exploits.

Did she tell you that?

There wasn't any reason to "lie" and have sex, she was already getting what she was after (before the sex started).

So, from my experience that would say to me an emotional relationship started. A connection and the next step in the relationship to continue an emotional/romantic relationship is sex. Are you sure she could have strung him along. I know my AP couldn't. The emotional neediness of her outweighed the progress of the relationship. When I realized that, I stopped the affair. But, first I tried to take it to a sexual level. She tried to string me along more. It wasn't worth it. I wasn't gaining as much as I was putting out. My AP talked the talk, walked the walk, and dressed the part- but was a huge tease.

Agree Butforgrace. Everyone is different. I know my wife was devastated by the loss of loyalty and trust more than anything. The thing she loved/respected about me and put me above all other contenders for marriage was the thing I took away from her.

Maybe RIO it would help to just focus more on the depths of her selfishness and not on what she was willing to barter with?

In the A at the time it's happening, things progress...it's not something that happens overnight (well for some of us anyway) you honestly see bit by bit this person is becoming important to you, and "evidence" the same is happening for him. You don't see there is actually an 18 year old boy stuck in this 50+ year old body that is using ploys and plays. You are being used. I didn't see any of that. And that's naïve, but that is the truth.

Do you realize how baffling and hurtful this mindset is for a BH? This is actually your CURRENT understanding, and not how you felt in the affair?

What if it wasn't ploys and plays? You were used because you wanted to be used. You used him equally as much as he used you. If he wasn't "using you", would that make stepping out on your husband better? What if he was your star-crossed lover? Does that make infidelity acceptable? Is infidelity EVER justified?

You don't want a wolf to eat your family? NEVER OPEN THE DOOR. Don't open the door and let the wolf in for a little while and get used to it.

Everyone who ever had an affair was at some point where they knew cognitively that what they were doing was objectively wrong and devastatingly hurtful to their spouse and kids, and they did it anyway.

Wow, great replies folks, a lot to think about in there!

I actually believe that for RIO it is the sex that hurts the most. The sex is something he consciously sacrificed as part of the balance of his M. In his heart this was something important that he gave his WW -- foregoing the lusty, joyous sex that for him is part of his love language. He is truly hurt by the reality that she chose to share this very love language with another man. The one thing she could have shared with him to tell him how much she loved him.

This is dead on. It's also because the sex is "real". I know people will say the emotions were real too, but, in my eyes, if you free me to "say anything" (like I could in an A), well, of course someone is going to get emotionally attached. Is that real? No, it's not. Because the APs aren't saying real things (usually) they are just saying whatever feels best right now. So of course someone would find that attractive.

But, let's take the typical worst male fear. If your W sleeps with another man, the sex is fantastic, he's bigger, better, does things you never did. Well, nothing will convince me otherwise, that is real. It wasn't the AP showing off or saying whatever it took. It was/is real. That history can't be re-written because it's what actually happened, not what someone says happened.

And maybe this is where true naivity seeps in for me. When we're growing up our parents teach us "boys will do anything, tell you anything to get in your pants". And you believe this, wholeheartedly. And, sometimes you believe the boy and still have sex. Sometimes that works out, but often not. But, after you get through with your 20's and 30's, and even 40's, you honestly think they have "grown out of that". I didn't realize that often men haven't. Yes, I knew it still existed out there somewhere. But, the AP in my situation presented himself in a mature way. I didn't realize that his maturity and experience just made him better at it.

Some of us do grow out of it. That's why we're not WH's. No disrespect intended, but, basically, when you enter into an A, your selecting exactly for the men who "haven't grown out of it". Because, if they had, they wouldn't be APs in the first place. The men who are AP's, at least the ones I know, are the ones who still love chasing skirts. And yes, the years of experience have done nothing but make them much better at it, and frankly, much more ruthless. Men at my age actually target married women because they are easier targets and it's also easier to have several girls at one time; they already have a H, so it's easier to play the field.

I guess, in some ways, it's like saying "I thought people were good people" after being beat up in a prison fight. Well, yeah, most people are good people, but you've self-selected into a group (prison population) that have shown, by their actions, that they aren't good people. And then being surprised that most people in prison are trying to rip you off or beat you up.. I mean, that's what happens in prison, just like, Hiking, your experience, is so commonly what happens in A's. But acting surprised that the prison population isn't exactly the most honorable out there? That seems to take a real level of active denial.

Do you realize how baffling and hurtful this mindset is for a BH? This is actually your CURRENT understanding, and not how you felt in the affair?

No, this is not my current understanding. That was how I felt in the affair. The narrative I was making said we understand what happened in hindsight, but when it's happening it's this...

I am sorry if that is baffling, but I did not expect to surprise anyone with that.

What if it wasn't ploys and plays? You were used because you wanted to be used. You used him equally as much as he used you. If he wasn't "using you", would that make stepping out on your husband better? What if he was your star-crossed lover? Does that make infidelity acceptable? Is infidelity EVER justified?

Ah, what I didn't spell out here is it HAS to be ploys and plays from both sides. You are married. Unless you really believe from day one either of you are leaving, then every body is lying. I did use him equally as he used me. I agree with everything you are saying. I think you might be thrown off because I was explaining the mindset while in the affair.

Nothing would have made betraying my husband better. No. And, no it's never justified. You justify it in the affair. I am sorry that my post was confusing, I did go between what I have learned in hindsight and what I thought at the time without much in the way of breaking that up for a reader.

You don't want a wolf to eat your family? NEVER OPEN THE DOOR. Don't open the door and let the wolf in for a little while and get used to it.

Everyone who ever had an affair was at some point where they knew cognitively that what they were doing was objectively wrong and devastatingly hurtful to their spouse and kids, and they did it anyway.

I agree with this. And, like any cheater, I will tell you I never thought I would be caught. I really thought no one would be hurt. I know now that I was a fool to think that, and as you know I didn't get caught I told because it was right. I am not justifying anything, I am trying to provide insight.