SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

First, there is no fucking clique. I know that statement was directed at me by way of a response to TG.

There most certainly was a clique. Whether you are the last of it remains to be seen. I've been here long enough to see this come and go. We have never had a clique that has admitted to being a clique.

My statement was directed at tired girl. I hadn't even seen you coming. But since you're both on the same team I understand you taking it personally.

Quit trying to pretend that this site is a free for all. If you would like better protection than what you are provided here then unplug. There is no safer infidelity site on the internet than SurvivngInfidelity.com.

And furthermore, do not presume to know my late wife. Her PMs were there to keep you in check. It would have served you well to read them again. But it is too late for that now.

Sorry for another thread jack WOES.

This thread has certainly turned into something different than I originally intended it to be. I do feel the need to turn it back the direction I was originally going. To do so, I think this needs to be addressed:

I have seen so many new WS's chased away by other relatively new WS's who have adopted the mentality that lifelong punishment is to be expected and tolerated

In the 8 years I have been here, never once have I read that a WS must accept lifelong punishment. I personally don’t think that any WS should perceive their situation as punishment at all. That makes this out to be much more like jail time and infidelity has the sentence of life without parole.

I would say that the SI “script” for the WS would be honesty, transparency, remorse. Work on identifying “why’s” and become a safe person. Own your shit. That journey isn’t the same for everyone, but those components should be present whether you are trying to reconcile or divorce. Not all marriages should be saved. Having a toxic marriage, however should not absolve you from trying to work through this and having remorse for hurting another human being.

I am personally confused by this zero tolerance policy on dysfunctional behavior with the BS community. How can we as proven dysfunctional human beings expect only perfection of those that have been hurt by our very actions? Why are we shocked that they are so angry and lashing out? Why is there so much push back for allowing them to express their feelings about the pain they are experiencing? If we want to be provided the time to work through our own crap and heal, why are we not allowing the same luxury for them?

My personal experience is that my own BH was most angry when I wasn’t getting it. He was most angry when he felt he wasn’t being heard. The more I worked through my “why’s” and actually listened to him, the less angry he became. It was empathy that made the difference. He needed to know I understood to the best if my ability.

How can we demand compassion and empathy yet have such a hard time returning it? Yes, that can absolutely go both ways, but I can guarantee that you will not find another place like this one. You will not find a place that not only provides a protected forum for waywards to post in, but such a large supportive BS community to offer constructive advice. Most sites tear the WS community apart.

Whether you feel it or not, this community is watched over constantly and passionately. There is communication with those that get out of line. I stay here because of my love for this site and what it has done for me. I stay because I wanted to pay it forward. I can’t have someone insinuate that I don’t protect this forum. I do it every single day. I consider this forum my home before any others. I protect it with my heart.

That is all.

Apologies for the t/j  WOES

MangledHeart

I appreciate that this is just my personal view,  and that I might be alone in it.  That is if no consequence to me.

For me, you are a man among men.

I stand in awe of your capacity for pure, unconditional love.

Your ability to offer forgiveness and extend grace confounds me.

I find the depth of your humanity humbling.

I know that I I am just an insignificant, cast away soul, from a far flung corner.

But this insignificant, cast away,  soul from this far flung corner is glad that you were born,  lived the life path that you did, and cared enough for others to take the time, and make the effort to start this site.

Through it my life was saved, and my children are I have been gifted the chance at finding happiness again.

Thank you

Foenix: SI needs a “like” button. 👍🏻

There is no safer infidelity site on the internet than SurvivngInfidelity.com.

Agreed.

That's all I wanted to say.

WalkingOnEggshells,

These are important questions:

Do you ever feel that you hold the BS to a much higher standard than you ever held yourself? Do you ever feel that it is somewhat unrealistic to tell them that now that you have stopped stabbing them, they should hold you because you feel terrible about it?

I told the last of my miserable secrets to my husband less than three years ago about a two-year affair that I had in 1975. I've worked very hard to show my love and remorse for my unbelievably unselfish behavior, but it's very hard to let go of my selfish nature. Yes, I want to be held and told that he loves me, but it is expecting more of him than I gave him. Thank you for these thoughts. I really appreciate the work you do for SI.

Of course, I meant to say, "for my unbelievable selfish behavior".

Great post WOE!

It’s often stated that a WS understands because they live it everyday. I’m not so sure. I believe it takes years (2-3) to really get it, to really understand what your BS feels from the betrayal.

I would like to add it also takes 2-3 years for the BS to adjust. The old marriage never returns. The BS must learn new methods for identifying good behavior and building trust capable of carrying a new heavier burden combined with a new permanent loss of blind trust. No small task for the BS, especially when the BS and WS are both learning and fumbling along the way. What is absolutely necessary for this process to play out is temporary increased control over the WS, with WS understanding and submission, maintaining the BS feeling safe as they learn. Humility, compassion, patience.

Great post WOE. Actually, I don't get bothered by the venom from BS because it is rooted in pain, trauma, and truths inflicted upon them. Regardless of who they were as a BS before the cheating started. Most importantly it is an unfiltered reality based voice that some spouses just might not voice to their WS for fear of inflicting pain while trying to work things out. There were often times I read something here and wondered if my wife felt that too and asked her. I think it is an eye opener to see just how much hurt is there.

I also agree that I have never seen someone say we need to be punished for the rest of our lives. Though I thoroughly believe we were monsters when we were cheaters. Instead of seeing punishment which an immature self absorbed person sees, I see the consequences of a shell shocked attacked person that didn't deserve it regardless of what type of spouse they were before the affair. Just edited to say that was not an insult. I was exactly the same way shortly after Dday, hence AP2. It isn't an insult, to me it is just reality. I too was a self-absorbed entitled immature ass at some point in the recovery process. If you had a shitty BS and a shitty M, the WS still needs to look to themselves as to why they stayed in a relationship like that and continue to do so instead of whining about "punishments" consequences of cheating on an already fucked up situation. If the aftermath is so bad and viewed as punishment from a BS, leave like one should have done to begin with. Honestly, that is where I see the big difference in the what some label and SI script. Some WS trying to R with what to me seems like truly abusive exit affair situations. So, if your marriage doesn't follow the standard SI script why get so bothered by the advice given. Perhaps the real focus should be why you get bothered by people you don't know and that don't know your situations. Why still look for validation from perfect strangers here on SI?

Of course this is easy for me to say since I have the mind that we don't jump on the band wagon of righteousness after we chose to fuck someone over just in the name of R. I also have found that when you stop calling for cease fire and equal treatment like we are entitled to it, the BS begins to calm down because we stop acting like a hypocrite. Within normal boundaries. Words don't bother me at all, but it appears to some they do. So their tolerance level to BS yelling can be like bombs. I am thinking more like you shouldn't take your BS beating the shit out of you. Like one poster said it best. The first R is recovery. The second R doesn't come till much later. Recovery then reconciliation.

[This message edited by Zugzwang at 6:50 PM, July 13th (Friday)]

Is it possible that at the moment we don’t have enough veteran [members] to guide our newer members?

WOES, you know I stick mostly to the R forum. These days, when I reply to threads, my member number is one of the lowest I see. I'm not exactly a vet, you know? When I read in the W forum, which isn't very often, I've noticed the same thing.

I'd imagine that SI has had this problem since it started. People come here, they find their path, and then they leave. It's perfectly understandable, isn't it? In such a dynamic environment, it's no wonder that various themes wax and wane. Threads like this one, I hope, will keep SI on the 'straight and narrow.'

I believe it takes years (2-3) to really get it, to really understand what your BS feels from the betrayal.

It's taken me years to understand how I really feel about my wife's betrayal. I'm still sorting through it. How could she 'get it' before I did?

I would have to say that most of the BS just want to be heard.

Oh, yes! One of the most contentious aspects in R for me (for us) was getting my FWW to STFU and listen. Just listen. Seek to understand, rather than to be understood. Without this simple act of humility and compassion, R will never happen.

I have been feeling like some are so busy lately setting up their camps that they are losing sight of the big picture.

Human nature, WOES. Cliques form. "Group think" tends to dominate most situations. I don't think it's all that different from the "burn the witch gang" in the JFO forum. If there anything that can be done about it, it's posts like yours, right here.

t/j

MissesJai, I'm going to make one last appeal to you. While I only read a few of your last threads and posts, you helped open my own eyes to a few things about myself, my wife and our relationship. I'm sorry you feel drowned-out and unappreciated, but I'm quite sure that if you only help one more person, it will have been well worth your time and energy. Personally, I think you'd help a lot more than one, but that's just my opinion.

[This message edited by Unhinged at 10:47 PM, July 13th (Friday)]

I would love to see this make a comeback. I'm not sure if you are meaning here on SI or IRL, or both! I'll assume you mean both It was prevalent upon my arrival. Here in the forums ( even by BSs) and also in the advice to take home.

One thing I saw recently was a WS who showed a complete lack of respect and compassion to one of our BHs here, and waltz right over what was to me a very clear boundary. I don't need to read 'vent' to see the boundary set by our BSs here. To know they would rather not hear form a WS at the time. And I think it's humility and compassion to 1. see the pain and 2. not feel the need to correct their expression of pain. No matter how wrong or hurtful it might be. It wasn't just that thread. I'm seeing it more and more as well.

There was advice to have some compassion for yourself too. Because honestly it may be the only place you get it for some time. It's a consequence (not a punishment), and frankly to expect anything from your BS or otherwise comes off a little entitled, no? And here on SI, I see the majority of those who show the least compassion are the BSs freshly choking on that shit sandwich, or are still getting fucked over. On the flip-side those who receive the least compassion are the ones still doing the fucking over. Go figure.

When I was deep in the trenches with my BH and his rage and pain, it was humility and compassion for him that allowed me to face it with courage. There has been nothing more tragic to see than the effects of my deep betrayal. I could see the physical suffering in every inch of his body. I didn't feel shamefully deserving of it like I was a POS, it felt more like my duty (does that sound strange?).

Why are we shocked that they are so angry and lashing out? Why is there so much push back for allowing them to express their feelings about the pain they are experiencing? If we want to be provided the time to work through our own crap and heal, why are we not allowing the same luxury for them?

I don't think it's shock, IMO the push back is rooted in selfishness. At home humility meant to me putting my own feelings to the side, what I was feeling wasn't near the importance of his healing. Here, see my 1 and 2 above.

Will humility feel like being a doormat? I'd say so if you are still holding on to self serving principles. And the rage and other seemingly dysfunctional behaviors may feel like abuse, IMHO I don't think it is.. If you ask me it's not really dysfunctional behavior our BSs exude, it is traumatized behavior, HUGE difference I believe.

Of course with everything there is a line, with each individual defining their own limit. I look at this way, once infidelity touches your relationship, and R is the goal, you no longer have anything that resembles normal. What once may have never been acceptable shifts to grey area. It's the nature of the beast. And the enormity of the situation can really only be felt by our BS. What a lonely place to be ((BSs everywhere)) sure WSs can feel/sense it, but it will never be with the same magnitude.

With that said, I'm confused with this SI script. Is SI the only place in the world that promotes honesty? You can pretty much sum up all of our work, in the ICU days, and our final destination of health and authentication, in truth and honesty. If you aren't ready for that in your life, that's your demise. And for those of us who have gotten a taste of how good it feels to live that life, we are going to try to share that amazing place of peace with others. And encourage the same. I am not a hypocrite for doing this, I value it, I live it, what is hypocritical about that? Answer: Nothing.

And finally. WOES, I imagine you are the second best thing to ever happen to the wayward forum. I am grateful you take such pride and care over our corner here. For some like you and me, it truly does save lives. Thanks for stepping up while still guiding us.

Excellent post foreverlabeled. If I were religious I would say Amen.

And for those of us who have gotten a taste of how good it feels to live that life, we are going to try to share that amazing place of peace with others.

I think that is the best statement since I saw someone say that there are two R's in reconciliation.

[This message edited by Zugzwang at 4:32 PM, July 16th (Monday)]

I am a BS, soon one year out and at times an absolute mess. I have been honest, I am far from perfect, have made many mistakes, have been abused in the past, damaged. I had my issues coming into my marriage and my WS knew them. I don't believe he was dishonest with me. I believe he was damaged as well but learned to rugsweep and disassociate from his feelings.

His A broke me, literally in every way. Trust was something very precious to me and it was a gift. I was in shock after dday and it took me 9 months to find SI. 9 months in shock and then ill, to find anyplace to find understanding, compassion, suggestions, anything. Think of that, 9 months barely functioning to find anywhere I could go. I did have IC and MC but I needed more. I was drowning, still am at times. I rage, rant, scream, cry, don't even no myself anymore. I am however learning to find me again. It is damn hard word and painful. I feel like I have been torn to shreds. A month or so ago, parts of me were coming back. Not all the time, not everyday but there was a smile or even a laugh. In the past few weeks I have spent most of my time in the damn rabbit hole. I hurt so much I feel I cannot bear it. Nightmares, mind movies, on and on. Here, on SI I found out that it is common when one year is upon us, for a BS to just melt. I don't like it, it makes me angry and all kinds of other things but it sure felt good to know I hadn't gone off the deep end on my way to gone. I feel so sad sometimes I am amazed I breathe.

Here, I posted recently about how I felt. I put it in general an put on it I wanted to write it in Wayward but knew moderators would work on the weekend. I played by the rules and got a pm from a mod. It said they put vent in front of my thread. I thought, yep, its a vent and as such ok.

I never wandered to this place for months. I didn't want to see or read anything here. My WH joined and encouraged me to read a few things here. I did and found that there were in fact WS who get it. They are not perfect, they slip up but they get it 100% and they own it. They try to help the others here who well are %%$%^, and not getting it. Do I feel angry at WS, of course I do. Do I appreciate those who get it and reach out to those trying or those that do not, absolutely. Here, I have also seen M in R. I have seen people that although they struggle, they have happiness again with one another and they encourage those giving R a shot. I also see those like me, who are in so much pain sometimes we scream and rant and are barely breathing. I see support for D, others helping others through D.

I have so much gratitude for this place. It has probably saved me on several occasions. I have made friends and although they live in the computer we are good friends. I even have a great friend, we communicate daily. Sometimes we scream or complain or try to lift up the other but we help each other. As a fence rider I'm kind of an in a camp with a few others that is really hard. We don't know what we are going to do so we try and survive the day, work on ourselves and help one another.

All any BS wants really is compassion and humility. I don't think it matters whether it is R or D. We have been so hurt, so well hurt. It doesn't matter if we were strong, confident, happy people, infidelity breaks us. I do imagine, a WS that gets it must feel broken too. To look at the person you promised faithfulness and honesty and to have their back and take care of as you want them to take care of you, to look at them if you get it and see broken, I think it must hurt like hell. To know you are why they broke, if you get it, that must be quite a burden.

This is a place of hurt people. People in so much pain sometimes they cannot breathe. It is also a place for those that caused that horrible pain. For some, they work hard to figure out how the hell they could chose to cause so much damage. For some, well, they don't get it, they just keep on keeping on with bs. I guess we can ignore them, or some with patience or anger just hit them over the head with a 2 by 4. Sometimes people come here so damn hurt and things are written and emotions go all over the place. It is raw.

I don't know what this place was years ago. I do know that I am so very glad it is here now.

I really hope the old vets who left and read come back and help those of us still new, we need all the help we can get. Nothing is perfect, humanity is not perfect, if it were, this place wouldn't exist.

As a BS I scream yes please, humility and compassion and help. Nobody comes here not needing crutches.

once infidelity touches your relationship, and R is the goal, you no longer have anything that resembles normal. What once may have never been acceptable shifts to grey area.

You hit the nail on the head here. These are not normal circumstances. We can not always expect normal behavior.

Still-living mentioned that it takes time for the BS to adjust. I would agree. There is the grieving process and it takes time to figure out just how the betrayal has touched your life. Sometimes it touches you in ways you never would have expected and at times that are inopportune.

And finally. WOES, I imagine you are the second best thing to ever happen to the wayward forum. I am grateful you take such pride and care over our corner here. For some like you and me, it truly does save lives. Thanks for stepping up while still guiding us.

For this, fl, I have no words. I can’t even begin to tell you how much that sentiment means to me.

Purplehaze

Trust was something very precious to me and it was a gift.

you have touched on something many new WS tend to forget. Yeah, it is given that we WS are fucked up to have gotten here and made these choices. Yes, we are hurting. But, we got ourselves here. And on something I have come to realize and remember was very precious to my wife. Trust. Like you her childhood wasn't pretty. It took 8 years for me to deserve her trust and I knew I KNEW how important and fragile that was. I still took it for granted and took advantage of it. We are so wrapped up in our own pains; the pain we were in to begin with when we chose this road and the pain we are in when the consequences come due that for some before we get it don't see that pain for our BS. Just how important and damaging that trust was. Just the simple fact that even before Dday, our own BS had their own damages and pain. We cry out about just how broken we were. For many BS, so were they. Yet, they chose to trust. We chose to take advantage of that. I know I did. It was a cruel horrible thing I did. Even knowing how valuable that trust was. To take that simple gift and exploit it in the name of my own pain. How I wish that I had just chosen to be vulnerable and to turn to her instead of taking her for granted. I think many new WS just don't fathom the magnitude of that one word. Trust. Especially if the BS came from a childhood that didn't foster it.

Bumping...I don't want this thread and the original message to get lost just yet!

Bumping!

This is a good one and thank you for it.

BS here. And I've had a hard time of it.

I come here to this forum to learn and gain insight.

And do comment in what I hope is felt to be respectful. Respectful isn't synonymous with agreement. But my intent is to be respectful.

SI has been a lifesaver to me. SI has seen me through my darkest times and worst nightmares. It held me up when I realized I was one of the worst SI nightmares - False R.

I got help from BS and WS alike. Those who have BTDT. Those who were new and lost. I knew I wasn't alone.

I'm a shell of my former self. Still the BASGU [bad a** sparkly goddess unicorn] I always was, but yet a shell of my former self. That was caused by the A and the subsequent underground continuation. False R is a mind fu*k like none other. I thought DDay1 was bad. DDay2 sent me to ER. DDay3 - OMG. SI kept me sane and I am forever grateful.

I check my 2x4 at the door on this forum, but did swing it with a vengeance at home [metaphorically of course but oh the temptation...]. Granted, in the beginning, I brought it to the party and was asked to check it at the door. I learned the limits.

To my WH - I said words I've never said before and said them more in the 2 years since DDay than I did in the 40+ of my previous years [including my teens]. I had such dark fantasies about AP [sorry W's but that is honest] that would make Stephen King himself pale. I'm surprised structures are still standing in the aftermath of some of my verbal tirades. I barely recognized myself during this time. I'm too exhausted anymore.

I wanted him to get it. I wanted him to understand he shot me full of holes and then got angry at me for bleeding. I wanted him to understand. Only now, at 2 years, I am starting to see glimmers of hope. I now recognize the hopium for what it was.

I guess to new Waywards - when us BS push back - it isn't so much as punishment - it isn't to beat someone while they are down, it isn't to drive someone away desperately looking for help - it is to say PLEASE - don't make the same mistakes others have. Please, be the exception. Please, get it. Please, don't do more damage. Please do no more harm. Please, please, please help yourselves. And if nothing else, please be honest with yourselves - after all you can't be honest with us if you aren't honest with yourselves.

It's good timing for a bump, Sassy. I really didn't read this all the way through before. I read mostly what Evolving Soul said and I re-read it today.

As I read it through, it's interesting to me for pretty specific reasons. one, ES is dead on like she always is. But, two, I have commented to many people that this site is harder to be on at certain junctures for some WS. BUT, I don't think it's a product of the site itself, nor is there anything wrong with it's moderation. I want to articulate this the right way, because it's not a criticism but it's interesting the direction some of the WS took before me, and I see a new crop of us reaching that point lately and you have to kind of evaluate where it comes from - that perhaps there is a specific personal struggle that might be a common thread.

And, I have began to think it's a struggle with self-disgust versus staying out of shame and learning self love. The further out I have gotten the more disgusted I am at my behaviors and the decisions I made.

A few months back, I could barely go into the WS forum. I had a disdain towards too many posts and I was having a hard time being as compassionate as I had been.

I spent a lot of time in General as a result because I still enjoyed being on this site with so many people who know the ins and outs and the struggles. And, there are so many here that I love to read all the powerful and wise things they have to say. But in General, there are a lot of BS vents, and after some time you can almost fool yourself to feel like "I helped these people and then they are lumping all the WS together". Almost like you are one of them, but you are not. And, just because you help someone doesn't mean they owe you a thing or to say "not all waywards" or any of those weird thoughts I started to have. I think that might be why some of my predecessors felt like they were unappreciated.

Sticking to wayward these weeks has been very good for me. It reminded me of why I am here. It's a weird awakening to get back your self-respect, your self-compassion, to feel happier and more fulfilled...and still feel that self disgust. So, for me at least, and I state this next part not proudly but maybe to bring some enlightenment to those who find themselves in that same struggle:

When your life has gotten better because you have gotten better, your bs has gotten better, some of us, and I think I was doing this, may want to start to shut down associating ourselves with who we used to be. It's probably why some people stop going to AA, or other groups like that. You feel disgusted by some of what the new ones have to say and you kind of get this superiority complex of "I am so glad I am past that" (and I am sorry to any alcoholic if this is a really bad analogy) Then you go to an Al-anon meeting and you try that for a while. You commiserate with the families and friends that were effected by the alcoholism. But your experience isn't their's - and maybe their friend or family member is newly recovering. They haven't gotten past their issues with them. But unlike when you were going to AA, where you were having the superiority complex, now you are with victims and their pain is triggering the hell out of you and you don't really know why.

And it comes down to this...it's because maybe have healed the pain that started the behavior, and you may be able to master your thoughts and behavior, but you have not yet learned to heal the pain you have because of the pain you caused. On the surface, your life has gotten so much better, but, you may get more agitated the more you have to be reminded of something that maybe you don't know if you will ever be able to forgive yourself for.

Realizing that has helped me a lot. And, I was reading something that Wool was writing today about when a post bothers you or you feel defensive or it's hard to read, you really have to ask yourself why. And, for me, I think this is what it is.

If you are experiencing this, and this rings true to you. Then, you must double down on the empathy. What makes your problem more important than someone elses? If someone is jabbing at you, it's not you they are jabbing at - it's the injustices they suffered. I wasn't here with the older crop of WS's, I don't know what they experienced, but I do think it's possible it's not the site changed but it's them who changed.

It's a delicate balance to be humble, to be compassionate and empathetic - but yet take no shit, or at least not internalize it. To be treated disrespectfully from time to time but to walk away with self respect not from lashing out but because you were humble, compassionate, and empathetic.

Yes, sometimes something on the site may come off as unfair. We may not always agree with an action. But, honestly, those are really mild things when you take into consideration what the BS folk have had to deal with in terms of unfair.

So, the evolution of this goes on for me. I feel like I have learned some new things over the last few weeks as I churned all this around in my head.

And in terms of the WS, I do hope more compassion can be shown to them over all. There is constructiveness in a 2 by 4, but expecting a new WS to have the tools to deal with all of it is an unreasonable request. We have to bring them along in their thinking. Remembering that many of us had these same distorted thoughts but couldn't see at the time how distorted they were.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:15 PM, August 21st (Wednesday)]

I guess to new Waywards - when us BS push back - it isn't so much as punishment - it isn't to beat someone while they are down, it isn't to drive someone away desperately looking for help - it is to say PLEASE - don't make the same mistakes others have. Please, be the exception. Please, get it. Please, don't do more damage. Please do no more harm. Please, please, please help yourselves. And if nothing else, please be honest with yourselves - after all you can't be honest with us if you aren't honest with yourselves.

This is so very true.