SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Like I said before there is a lot to work with here. The most important thing for a WS is put in effort. Effort counts as much as effect does.

As you move through this that is what you hold onto that unwavering effort. You won't always remember the outcome but you will remember the effort. She will fail at times. You will fail at times. Treat them as learning opportunities. Change what is not working and keep doing what does. There is not right way or wrong way to do this. Progress is not linear. You catapult back and forth.

Have you stuck with IC ? Has she ?

How did the poly go ?

Thanks numb&dumb for your thoughts. I should definitely mention that she took and passed a poly, which showed she is truthful about her A from 12 years ago being her only sexual contact with anyone else. We are both still in IC and MC, although I am looking for a new IC.

"Progress is not linear" - boy, is this true. The rollercoaster is very real, and the ups and downs are very difficult to manage. Thank you for your support.

Hello CMB:

I do agree with your process/result statement.

I resonate with your comments about having yourself strayed into "bad" behavior. I've done it too, especially in the early years of my marriage. Posting and reading on SI has changed my viewpoint in several ways, but the most profound has been to remind me of this standard of always comporting myself in a way that my wife would be comfortable with if she were present.

As to the bit on SI about "remorse", I think that is discussed here so dogmatically because there are many threads started by BS's who only recently caught their WS red-handed in the midst of an ongoing PA. Those initial posts, often just a day or even hours after the first confrontation, often describe the wayward spouse as "remorseful".

In most cases a WS who is still embroiled in an ongoing PA is more concerned about him/herself and his/her gratification or happiness than that of anybody else, including the BS. In most cases, WS's regret having been caught because they lose their extracurricular fun and they suddenly "in trouble." They feel bad for themselves. We distinguish that as regret. Regret at now being in a life that has bad consequences.

As opposed to remorse, which is grasping the magnitude of trauma that has been inflicted on the BS and being truly concerned for the BS's healing.

In the case of A's discovered long after they are done, that distinction has perhaps less meaning. Your WW is not mourning the loss of her extracurricular fun. A's discovered or revealed long after they are done have their own unique set of issues, mostly around the BS's trying to see if he/she can adjust to the new paradigm of how to view the entirety of the marriage since the A.

In your case, your wife had over a decade to contemplate how you would be hurt by this revelation. She clearly knew it would hurt you, a lot, and she understood it from your perspective. I think one could say that she was already remorseful even when she confessed to you.

The fact that she confessed at all is somewhat unique. As I think I mentioned, I believe the fact of her confession was itself at least in part an artifact of remorse. She had nothing to gain and everything to lose at that moment. The only purpose of confessing was to give you the unvarnished truth that she knew you deserved.

I understand your description of getting hung up on the feeling that, no matter how fervently you wish otherwise, you may not be able to accept the fact of her A and move on. All I would say there is to give it time. You have experienced trauma. You need to heal. It could potentially be years, not months. I'd urge you to be nakedly vulnerable to her in the meantime.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 2:03 PM, November 26th (Monday)]

My ongoing issue is simply whether or not I can deal with having the knowledge of her A in my memory bank and living out the rest of my life with it in my head, haunting me.

FWIW I posted on your W's thread too. BTW it applies to both of you.

Sorry If I did not give my background before. My W had an EA/PA and lied to me for 3 years about it. I am 7 years past Dday. Fully R'd with my W and very happy with my M and my life today. So I know reconciliation is possible and even a "good" idea.

You are never going to forget this. That genie can't be put back in the bottle. You learn to accept it. You realize that your W is flawed (No pun intended). You learn that as much as the A feels it was all about you, it really was not. It is about various circumstances surrounding your W at that time that made it a "choice," she was willing to make despite her knowing it was wrong. It was easier than doing the hard work of confronting whatever was causing them pain. She was running from herself only to discover that was impossible. That is a hard revelation for most WS that are found out usually come to. Now they've hurt someone else and caused more pain.

After a long time contemplating infidelity in my own life and others I can tell you one thing about WWs. Most WW (Some WHs too) have an A because their life has become too painful. That takes on a lot of forms. They had other options. They get an opportunity to "pretend" to be someone else that doesn't live that life. They couldn't/can't do that with us. We know them too well and we wouldn't let them. We see value in them even when they can't. So their AP becomes someone who is willing to pretend along with them. It is an escape. People who aren't broken can't do this. We can't compartmentalize like that. Most WS can do to an alarming degree.

Communicate with your W about what she was feeling at the time. Ask her to share with you that "pain." For you and I also ask her what she felt all those years during the time that she lied to you. Further she still has some of those old coping mechanisms in place. She needs to see those and fix them before she can be 100% honest with you. She can't be honest with you because he "honesty" has been buried amongst several years of lies she told herself to alleviate her guilt. IC is good for that.

If you want to see that R is possible. Please read some of the positive reconciliation stories. I posted mine there around my Dday in late Aug. You can heal from this and it won't always "haunt" you. It becomes a difficult time in your life where you learned how strength you really are. I know it feels like you've lost something, and you have, but there is a whole lot to gain if you look for it. Keep posting. Keep asking questions. Keep reading. When you are in hell, keep moving.

Thank you BFTG and N&D, your posts are so insightful and helpful. I really appreciate it. It's so nice to hear from others who have achieved a successful R; it is ostensibly the goal of this site, yet a lot of posters on here make it seem almost impossible. I don't begrudge anyone who has gone through being a BS for being angry and bitter, but it does make it harder for others when they apply their feelings in a blanket way to every other BS. I think they key is that every A, every WS, and every BS is different. We all have different capacities for what we can recover and heal from.

Anyway, thank you again.

The fact that she confessed at all is somewhat unique. As I think I mentioned, I believe the fact of her confession was itself at least in part an artifact of remorse. She had nothing to gain and everything to lose at that moment. The only purpose of confessing was to give you the unvarnished truth that she knew you deserved.

I try to keep reminding myself of this, especially when I question my trust in my wife or question who she really is, in light of learning the details of her A. What you said is the truth and it helps me feel safe loving who she is today and trusting that she does have good intentions now, as much as I may question her actions in the past.

After a long time contemplating infidelity in my own life and others I can tell you one thing about WWs. Most WW (Some WHs too) have an A because their life has become too painful. That takes on a lot of forms. They had other options. They get an opportunity to "pretend" to be someone else that doesn't live that life. They couldn't/can't do that with us. We know them too well and we wouldn't let them. We see value in them even when they can't. So their AP becomes someone who is willing to pretend along with them. It is an escape. People who aren't broken can't do this. We can't compartmentalize like that. Most WS can do to an alarming degree.

This is almost exactly as my wife has described her actions in the A. Pretty scary how similar, actually. I have found it amazing how incredibly similar I feel to other BS when I started posting and reading here, and now how incredibly similar my W felt/acted to other WS as I have read and learned more about her side. Infidelity is like world's worst "tie that binds".

Pretty scary how similar, actually.

Actually most As have similar elements at their core. The details differ, but most follow a pattern.

It is so common we often jokingly refer to the "cheater's handbook," when a WS does something similar. It also helps some BS to see that their WS was "nothing special." Hint: it never is.

Also welcome to, "the best club you never wanted to join." Misery loves company and all that.

This is almost exactly as my wife has described her actions in the A. Pretty scary how similar, actually. I have found it amazing how incredibly similar I feel to other BS when I started posting and reading here, and now how incredibly similar my W felt/acted to other WS as I have read and learned more about her side.

The two prongs of R are:

1. The WW fixes what was broken so the BS can feel safe.

2. That "ephemeral matter of the heart". The BS feeling loved and desired in a way that feels true.

In your case, as to #1, she has been loyal and faithful for over a decade. That's a big step toward "safe". Further, as she has matured and gained perspective, I gather she has become more mindful and deliberate about being a committed wife. Gradually safer, over time. As she delves into the "why" questions around her actual A, she can figure out how to become even safer.

As to #2, you guys have been together for years after the A and I believe you feel her love and desire for you are both true.

Mainly, for you, it's the "Chasing Amy moment" aspect, I think, that you need to deal with. The paradigm shift. Have you seen "Chasing Amy"? The woman you are actually married to isn't the woman you thought you were married to. What you need to figure out is how you feel about being married to the actual woman, not the ersatz one.

While you are doing that, consider this. Marriages are not static. Each spouse grows and matures and evolves as a person. Marriages that last continuously evolve along with these individual changes. Your WW choosing to bare her soul to you at this time, that is a sign that she herself has matured and evolved as a person since your married her, and I would suggest that as she evolves she is moving in the direction of the woman you thought you married. In other words, unlike many marriages at your stage with young kids approaching adolescence, your wife's commitment to you is growing stronger.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 7:26 AM, November 27th (Tuesday)]

CBM, why did you keep asking about the pre-marriage incident during all these years? Why did that itch keep itching?

There are two things wrong with affairs...the sex and the lying. Even when the sex stops, if the lying goes on, the affair goes on. The affair for your wife only just now ended. She probably feels relief from no longer having to live an internal and external life, and can be whole now and live an honest life for a change.

When you kept asking about the incident, what was the answer you wanted? It was obviously not the answer you kept getting, because you kept asking. Or maybe it was.

Or maybe you were looking for a reassurance each time you asked, kind of like asking, “do you love me?” Just hearing it makes you feel better, but god help us if the answer is “no”.

What value is The Truth to you?

I think it is fair to say that most people are not really honest with themselves and with others, presenting facades and acting in roles, doing more manipulating of their world rather than just communicating. The truth is rarely at the top of the value list, frankly.

Google on “People would rather be electrically shocked than left alone with their thoughts” for the fascinating results of a science experiment.

Along with all of the pain you are enjoying right now, you are also getting an up close and personal deep look into human nature...yours and your wife’s. I bet neither of you had the response you expected on hearing the truth.

Affairs have a knack for blowtorching a lot of trivial crap out of the way, and leaving what we work so hard to bury completely exposed. If you choose to value the truth above everything else (as opposed to, for example, happiness) then this isn’t the worst thing to happen. The worst thing would be to bury your head in the sand again.

Rambling post...I guess I am really saying that if you use this as a red pill/blue pill moment and choose to alter your whole perspective and what you value, it can be a growth moment. If you spend your energy trying to make things as they were, cramming the genie back in the bottle, you’ll fail.

I’ve linked to this before. The last paragraph never fails to move me.

https://thefloatinglibrary.com/2008/07/30/everything-and-nothing-edit/

CBM, how are you doing? Hope you're finding a way to clear your head and find your truth. As stated above, I think mainly you will simply need time to sort out your emotions.

The two prongs of R are:

1. The WW fixes what was broken so the BS can feel safe.

2. That "ephemeral matter of the heart". The BS feeling loved and desired in a way that feels true.

In your case, as to #1, she has been loyal and faithful for over a decade. That's a big step toward "safe". Further, as she has matured and gained perspective, I gather she has become more mindful and deliberate about being a committed wife. Gradually safer, over time. As she delves into the "why" questions around her actual A, she can figure out how to become even safer.

As to #2, you guys have been together for years after the A and I believe you feel her love and desire for you are both true.

Mainly, for you, it's the "Chasing Amy moment" aspect, I think, that you need to deal with. The paradigm shift. Have you seen "Chasing Amy"? The woman you are actually married to isn't the woman you thought you were married to. What you need to figure out is how you feel about being married to the actual woman, not the ersatz one.

While you are doing that, consider this. Marriages are not static. Each spouse grows and matures and evolves as a person. Marriages that last continuously evolve along with these individual changes. Your WW choosing to bare her soul to you at this time, that is a sign that she herself has matured and evolved as a person since your married her, and I would suggest that as she evolves she is moving in the direction of the woman you thought you married. In other words, unlike many marriages at your stage with young kids approaching adolescence, your wife's commitment to you is growing stronger.

Thanks BFTG. My biggest ongoing issues are feeling like I don't/didn't know who my wife truly is/was. Being lied to for a decade I guess may have that impact . A lot of my issues also stem from the fact that her lying allowed her to have years to process, forgive herself, come to terms with her actions etc. I feel often that I am suffering alone, and while I know she feels awful for the pain she is causing me, it feels like it is just my pain. She tells me over and over that she is in a ton of pain as well, but I just don't feel it to the extent that I want to.

I have not seen Chasing Amy but it's always been on my list. I'll be sure to get to it soon.

I have no doubt that my wife has evolved enormously since the A and has grown into a caring, safe, loving spouse. The issue I have is simply accepting what she did, the details of it, the mind movies, and acknowledging that it is real and accepting it and moving on. I just can't do it yet.

I still get so hurt and angry when I think about her fucking this guy behind my back, then coming home and crawling into bed with me afterwards. It makes my stomach knot up and makes me question who she is all over again. I think "sure, she was 23, but what kind of person does that? And what kind of person does it in the ways that she did it?" Of course, reading here shows me that WS in the "bubble" will do all kinds of horrendous shit, so I think I just need time to keep working on acceptance and realizing it doesn't define her as a person.

Or maybe you were looking for a reassurance each time you asked, kind of like asking, “do you love me?” Just hearing it makes you feel better, but god help us if the answer is “no”.

I think I kept asking because 1) I was never able to accept that she did what she did, even when it was just "kiss"; 2) I never truly believed that was all she did; and 3) I did find comfort in her denial and her gaslighting actually made me feel better. Ugh.

Rambling post...I guess I am really saying that if you use this as a red pill/blue pill moment and choose to alter your whole perspective and what you value, it can be a growth moment. If you spend your energy trying to make things as they were, cramming the genie back in the bottle, you’ll fail.

I appreciate this sentiment. I don't know if I can or want to change what I value, is the issue. I love my wife, I have been very proud of her at times since d-day as she has worked SO incredibly hard at trying to help me heal, and her A was very long ago and she's been a great person since then. She passed a poly and I have no reason to suspect she is hiding anything else from me. Yes, I still find myself staunch in my values and I find her actions completely unacceptable, and it changes how I look at her as a person. I worry if I can ever overcome this.

---

In general, things have been going relatively well although my rollercoaster went downhill on Sunday and has continued into today. My wife decided Sunday night to share some feelings with me about cell phone usage/parenting/checking out, and she did it um-prompted (i.e., without my behavior leading to her comments. I had taken care of the kids almost completely by myself Saturday while she had a stomach bug, and had been an A+ dad on Sunday). I was waiting for her in bed, expecting some affection and comfort, and instead got attacked by way of my wife sharing feelings with me that made me feel bad and came unprompted/without warning or cause. It felt like an ambush and it reminded me of how we fought pre-A, which was a really sobering thought and made me really sad thinking all the great ways she's been acting since d-day are just temporary.

My feelings were very much hurt and I withdrew. Monday, the feelings turned into more hurt and more thinking about the A and my questions about her character, then later Monday night it turned into anger. Today has gone better and I have calmed down, but I am still in a "bad mood" and thinking too much about the A, her actions, her character, and her empathy for me today.

I am hyper-sensitive right now and I feel like she doesn't cry for me the way that I want her to, that she only cries very lightly, with little or no tears, even while I sob next to her, grieving for all that I feel I have lost. She will sob when she is angry or frustrated or if I threaten to leave her, but she does not sob for my pain. It really hurts, and I have told her this many times but she just can't seem to find the tears for me. She has told me that she cries differently for sadness vs anger, and I get that, but I just wish so badly that she could be more vulnerable for me, and sob for me, and show me the empathy I so badly need to feel (instead of just tell me, which does do but words are not as powerful).

Anyway, that's where I'm at. It feels like very little progress since a couple weeks ago. I still love my wife, I still want to R, but I still question whether or not I can do it. And my rollercoaster is always on the move, up and down, up and down.

CBM: You are still quite recently post DDay. Your emotional roller coaster is normal. You should expect it to continue, probably for months.

I completely understand your pain and anger. In a way, she tricked you into being husband and father via false pretenses. You're now stuck.

And what she gave the asshole she slept with -- the thrill of casual NSA sex -- was the one thing you yourself had specifically agreed to let go of for the sake of a committed relationship. It is hugely unfair. I illustrate that specifically because one thing about infidelity is that, no matter what kind of ending you have, that unfairness will always exist. There isn't any way to go back in time and undo it. Even if you were to now have a RA, you would likely find that (a) it didn't make you feel better, and (b) your WW would likely feel she deserved it and therefore would not share the sense of unfairness. I'm not suggesting that you have an RA, by the way. I'm simply trying to get your mindset straight on that point. Sometimes life brings us an unfairness that can never be set right.

I think in the end, you might be mindful of where you are stuck. It sounds like it's actually a pretty good place: lovely wife who has grown to love you enough to put her neck on the chopping block for the sole sake of naked honesty with you. Health. Happy family. How many would trade everything they have to be in your shoes. Life will always involve some element of luck, both good and bad. In your personal bundle of fairness/unfairness, good luck/bad luck, you've see more good fortune than many.

No matter whether you divorce your wife, or stay with her, the unfairness of what she did those years ago will not change. Would you rather go through life carrying that unfairness with her at your side, loving you and trying to heal you? or alone, without her? Or, perhaps, with somebody new you might meet in the future, who might love you but probably wouldn't be too keen on dwelling on some cheating your ex did many years ago. Those really are your three choices.

I have some friends who had a daughter that was one of those amazing, awesome young women you sometimes encounter. Smart, beautiful, generous, bold. She did all the right things in high school and matriculated into a prestigious university. Their whole extended family and faith community loved her. Then one night her sophomore year, on her way back to campus after her part-time job, a drunk ran a red light and killed her. Another kind of unfairness that the world sometimes brings to good people. I cannot even imagine myself surviving that kind of pain as a parent.

In context -- the kinds of unfairnesses that the world can inflict on good people -- yours is not as bad as many. Yes, it was a knife in the back from a woman you loved and trusted. It was cruel and you will carry the scar to your grave. But in context, with the two of you so young and her young soul in turmoil, not prepared for the gravity nor magnitude of the commitment she was making, not mature enough to walk her talk, her betrayal is at least understandable, and in the balance, when you weigh your blessings and burdens -- which include a wife whose love and regard for you have grown stronger with time, not weaker -- you don't have it so bad.

I've said many times that you should give it plenty of time. Detach from her for a time if you must. Implement some soft 180. Not to punish her, but to give yourself some space to find your truth. In the meantime, I think you are doing the right thing by being nakedly vulnerable with her.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 3:07 PM, December 4th (Tuesday)]

CBM, I understand your confusion, and want to offer some perspective. Your D-day was less than 2 (maybe 3?) months ago. That, and your assessment of your WW’s empathy level/remorsefulness, suggest it is too soon to decide whether you can R. I have no doubt that you want to want to R, but it is too soon to know that you can R.

Look up Walloped’s thread. He went through the same thing about wanting to want to R, but not knowing if he could. He needed some separation to figure out what he truly wanted (surprise, it was R!). He also observed his WW’s actions over a long period of time to determine if he could trust her to R. You may want to consider a very similar course of action.

Don’t offer R too soon without really thinking it through and honestly evaluating your WW’s worthiness as an R candidate. There is no way she’s done enough work since D-day to fix what allowed her 1) to cheat on you in the first place and 2) to lie about it for more than a decade.

As Sanibelredfish said. You're jumping to quickly on the R train. You need time to evaluate yourself as well as evaluate your WS. Also, don't feel ashamed if you find that you can't bring yourself to R. Betrayal is the worst pain that a person can inflict upon someone who trusts them. You've been betrayed. It's not unusual that this is a deal-breaker. If you come to that place where it's not going to work for you, then you're fully justified in moving on with your life without the WS. What she did was her choice and she knew she was lying and deceiving you before and after you married her. She knew the consequences of her actions. Had you known before you married her you wouldn't have married her. Take your time deciding whether you can bring yourself to R or not. There's no deadline for making a decision; you'll know when you feel it. A short unofficial separation might be in order to help you get your head straight quicker. I'd also suggest you get a post-nuptial agreement in place as soon as possible. Protect yourself and your children's futures.

I am hyper-sensitive right now and I feel like she doesn't cry for me the way that I want her to

She needs to mindful of that. I tried very hard to express that to her in her post. She is in a different place than you are. She has healed somewhat and is hiding behind all of the lies she has told herself. This is where IC comes in for both of you. You need to re-establish some individuality and understand that you are both in different stages of this journey.

Again, Your W had a decade to build a mountain of lies, justification and minimization. She did not do this intentionally. She did this to cope with the guilt and regret she felt. She needs to unwind all those things before.

Further she believes that the betrayal was already know. If anything you got Trickled Truth for ten years. Ten years. Further the trickle truth was not to protect you it was to protect her. To help her avoid pain she created.

It takes time for this to play out. I'd doubt remorse is something she has right now. She has played this out in her head so many times and it some many ways she has a canned response to anything that you will bring up. It is more dishonesty, but in a different way. The authentic person isn't allowed to be present. It is being shielded by layer and layers of bullshit.

Imagine having a ten year head start in preparing for a debate or court case. That is what this is like.

Stand firm and don't buy into her self created delusions about this. It is a big deal and it very well could end your M. She has too many things at play that help her avoid that painful truth.

IC for her is sorely needed. Until she can be honest with herself. She needs to ackowledge your pain and anything else you feel versus try to aruge you out of it. She is in the wrong on every level and she knows it. She feels that there is some "way" to push this into the background. This has to be dealt with and forgiven or it will shade the rest of your lives.

So let's say one day you give up because she isn't giving you what you ask for. Are you going to be as emotionally invested as before ? Are you going to tolerate this you have in the past? You might stay M, but why would you doom yourself to that life ?

Further not every WS has the emotional skills and strength to navigate something as big and destructive as living a lie for a decade. If that becomes clear you have to make a choice on what you can live with.

After the blow up did she apologize ? Or is she standing her ground? Does she want to win this battle only to lose the war ? I'd bet you have less faith in her ability to be the wife that you deserve someday, right ?

The thing about this is that it requires "calm" talking. Emotions are expressed without placing blame on the other. She did wrong and lied about to protect her image of herself. She has been doing that for so long that she doesn't know who to do anything else. She is free of the guilt now, but it being replaced with a lot of more intense emotions.

Trying talking to her calmly. Yuo approach in anger her go to response is anger. Anger is a protective and secondary emotion. There is a lot of pain underneath that veneer. It needs to be brought out into the open.

IC is a great place for you both to work through some things. Has your wife picked up a copy of how to help your spouse heal from an an Affair. It is a very good book and is a very short read. It might help understand your point of view better.

Exercise some patience. Give yourself 6 months and agree to make no final decisions in that time. Tell your W that. At the end of 6 month you will re-assess what you'd like to do. If nothing is changed, well, then you have a decision to make. Use that time to work on yourself. Limit/greatly diminish your interactions with your W. You need to detach as her input is highly biased towards what she wants. She is failing as she fails to see your side of things.

Give it time for the intensity to fade into the background. Use IC to vent, cope, learn more about yourself and figure out what you want. I'll tell you right now this happened and nothing either of you will do today will erase that it did happen.

However this is something that can be atoned for and make amends to the injured party. Only then would I consider grace. Whatever that looks like is highly subjective to you.

I will caution you on punishment, lashing out. It certainly can get her to comply with what you want, but compliance is just avoiding more punishment. Defiance and resentment usually accompany that. Her fixing the mistakes of the past because she "wants" to is much more valuable to both of you.

I'll stop as I think I am throwing a lot at an overwhelmed person already. Time is the one you do have in abundance. Use it wisely.

Also be aware that once the HB stops, things can get rough. Anger, and resentment may flare up. Another good reason to be in IC.

Hello CBM, I have a thought of an approach that might help flesh out the details you want to know for the timeline.

There are some unique aspects here. You moved to a new city. She must remember when you guys moved, and when (approximately) she started the retail job where she met the AP. Is the city where you live in a place where there is a marked change in seasons, with a rainy or snowy winter? Her A was in the spring of a year, as I understand it, ending around May?

As I also understand it, she didn't spend the night with the AP. She returned home to you each time she had sex with the AP. I would imagine that the walk(s) of shame may be memorable. How did she get home. Taxi? Drive herself? Other? What does she remember about the weather in her walk(s) of shame. That is a thing many can recall -- shivering against the cold while approaching the front door, mind racing with what she might say if you were to wake and asks where she’s been.

Also, I gather there were just a handful of sexual encounters. Like 3 or 4. I find this unusual for a limerent A where she had about 6 months working with the AP, and plenty of opportunities because of the late working hours. Why were there so few sexual acts? And, on the flip side, why did she engage in sex the few times it happened, as opposed to all the times she didn't. From the AP's perspective, he was a young dude with a hot new female sex partner. I think he would have had sex with her as often as possible. I reckon she was the limiting decider.

So here is my suggestion. Create bookends, using the first time and the last time.

As to the first time:

When did she start the retail job. How did she get it? What was her first day on the job like? Did she meet the AP in the workplace, at work? If not, where and how did she meet him? What does she remember about him in terms of first impression?

When did he first get onto her radar as a possible sexual partner? What happened for that to occur (I don’t mean “February 17, 2006, I mean “We flirted a bit at work, but after going out drinking with coworkers a few times it was clear there was chemistry between us”)?

When did she first decide she was going to have sex with him and why? By “when” I don’t mean “March 13, 2006”. I mean: “We had talked a lot at work, sort of flirty talk, I knew he was hot for me and I enjoyed the feeling of power over him. One night when we were drinking our talk turned very overtly flirty and sexual. He put his hand on my ass and I liked it. I knew then I was going to have sex with him, but we each had a significant other at home so we had to figure out a time and place to do it.” Or some such.

Where did they drive to that first time? What was that time and place? I gather from other posts that she got into his car and rode with him somewhere. Where did they go first? Another bar or club? His home/apartment? A friend’s apartment? A hotel? How did she get home after? Where was her car? Was it cold outside? Wet? What month was it? Was it near any holiday? St. Patrick's Day, perhaps? Mechanics like this often come back with memory review, and this can trigger more memories of the acts.

What were her thoughts/feelings upon returning home that first time? Was she shivering against the cold? Was it still dark? Were you still asleep?

As to the last time:

Why was it the last time? The AP was a dude with a hot woman who wanted sex with him. I'm a dude. I know what that’s like. Dudes don't choose to end that, unless perchance he was caught by his GF and forced to stop. Otherwise, your WW must have made the decision to end it. Had she decided that it would be the last time before the sex occurred? In other words, did she decide to have “one last go”? Or did she decide after the sex, something like “I can’t keep on doing this”?

There was talk in another post about one non-drinking lunchtime encounter where she went to his home/apartment and did sex stuff in the shower. Was this the last time? Did it occur after you had intercepted the suspicious text? When did she get home from that? Were you home at the time? If not, when did she see you next? What did she do?

By the way, you should add all of this level of detail to the written timeline of the A.

Once you’ve fleshed out the first and last times, use them as bookends. If there were 3-4 total encounters, there had to have been at least one sexual encounter between the first and last. She must be able to at least recall returning home after that sexual encounter. Where was the sex? How did she get home? Was it dark? Cold? Raining/snowing?

There was mention of your WW and her AP getting walked in on during one session. Where were they when this happened, and why were they having sex there (as opposed to somewhere more private)? Did that occur on the one time between the first and last?

If you go through this, she may be able to recall whether there was only one “return home after sex” between the first and last, or more than one. That answers the burning question whether there were 3 times or 4. As I note above, 3 or 4 encounters in context is not very many. Surprisingly few from my perspective, actually. Why were there so few? Was it because there were limited opportunities because each had a significant other at home? Or was it because for her the sex was just a way to keep his attention, and she didn’t put a lot of energy into frequent sex with him?

Good luck

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 10:58 AM, December 7th (Friday)]

The way you feel really resonates with me. I also feel like I'm dying inside everyday and I'm just a shadow of who I used to be before discovering the affair. I think since a relationship is founded on trust, and that is taken away, it makes you question everything. I totally understand how you feel because I'm in the same boat. You are not alone in these feelings. It's like everything you thought you knew is a lie. I'm hoping these are just emotions we have to go through to get past this, but sometimes it seems like I'm just stuck.

Here is an update for everyone who has given me their time & energy, for which I am very grateful. In general, things are largely the same - the rollercoaster stills goes up and down. Some days I am totally disgusted by her and can't imagine staying with her, other days I think I am incredibly lucky to have her and would be a fool to leave. It's maddening.

Some thoughts and responses:

And what she gave the asshole she slept with -- the thrill of casual NSA sex -- was the one thing you yourself had specifically agreed to let go of for the sake of a committed relationship. It is hugely unfair. I illustrate that specifically because one thing about infidelity is that, no matter what kind of ending you have, that unfairness will always exist. There isn't any way to go back in time and undo it. Even if you were to now have a RA, you would likely find that (a) it didn't make you feel better, and (b) your WW would likely feel she deserved it and therefore would not share the sense of unfairness. I'm not suggesting that you have an RA, by the way. I'm simply trying to get your mindset straight on that point. Sometimes life brings us an unfairness that can never be set right.

You have nailed it once again BFTG. The unfairness smothers me like a wet rag that I can't remove. I hate it. Your thoughts on the RA are also accurate, on both accounts - I know I wouldn't feel better and I am positive she would feel like she deserved it. I am sure I would end up the most mad about how "not mad" she would be about it and feel insecure all over again.

Don’t offer R too soon without really thinking it through and honestly evaluating your WW’s worthiness as an R candidate. There is no way she’s done enough work since D-day to fix what allowed her 1) to cheat on you in the first place and 2) to lie about it for more than a decade.

I know I was too fast to try so hard for R. She has recently proved to me that she has NOT fixed herself to the extent that she had previously claimed, as she recently admitted that she had been Facebook friends since 2008 (two years post-A) with the woman who walked in on her fucking OM. She unfriended her the week after confessing to me on D-Day, and only disclosed to me yesterday (six weeks later). She is still a serial liar and deceiver, and she was comfortable being friends with this POS and having her post "happy birthday" on her fucking Facebook page every year. This person is also FB friends with OM, who my wife swears she has not thought about since the A in 2006. The feels like bullshit given this new evidence. Every single year, since 2008, this person posted "Happy Birthday" on my wife's Facebook and in 2013, my wife even 'liked' the post. To me, this shows how little she cares about me or respects me. How could she respect me and accept being friends with this person? It blows my mind.

After the blow up did she apologize ? Or is she standing her ground? Does she want to win this battle only to lose the war ? I'd bet you have less faith in her ability to be the wife that you deserve someday, right ?

She apologized and wrote a great email to me explaining her thoughts and actions. She is always really good this way. I just don't know if I can keep putting up with the setbacks and bullshit, even though she says and does the right thing most of the time. After the discovery above about her Facebook antics, I am starting to really lose hope in her.

I will caution you on punishment, lashing out. It certainly can get her to comply with what you want, but compliance is just avoiding more punishment. Defiance and resentment usually accompany that. Her fixing the mistakes of the past because she "wants" to is much more valuable to both of you.

I really struggle on controlling my rage. I don't scream and yell, but I get very mean and say hurtful things. The FB thing has been a breaking point for me today and I don't have it in me to take any more TT or disclosures, about the A or anything else.

I am actively trying to reach out to a few people who may have known about what was happening back then (the woman mentioned above and one of my wife's friends who went partying with her back then) to confirm details. I have told my wife that if any details contradict her story so far, I will be filing for D, and I do mean that.

I contemplated reaching out to OM on FB as well and posted about it, but the feedback was largely not to do it and I agree. It is too humiliating for me to even consider and he has no reason to talk to me. I am hoping that this woman, who I can tell from FB has a nice family and kids, will have it in her to tell me all the truth that she knows. I don't expect she'll know or remember much anyway, but I feel like I need to try.

Also be aware that once the HB stops, things can get rough. Anger, and resentment may flare up.

I think this is happening already. I still feel HB sometimes, but it is not as powerful as it used to be and not as frequent either.

Also, I gather there were just a handful of sexual encounters. Like 3 or 4. I find this unusual for a limerent A where she had about 6 months working with the AP, and plenty of opportunities because of the late working hours. Why were there so few sexual acts? And, on the flip side, why did she engage in sex the few times it happened, as opposed to all the times she didn't. From the AP's perspective, he was a young dude with a hot new female sex partner. I think he would have had sex with her as often as possible. I reckon she was the limiting decider.

She continues to swear (and has passed a poly) that they really did only have sex the 3 times (maybe 4 but she is more confident now that it was just 3) and that mostly it was because they had no other opportunities and in her eyes weren't having a "full blown affair", just hooking up when they had the chance. She swears he was never at our apartment, and she thinks she was never at his (because he had a gf). She says she didn't think of him outside of work, wasn't "in love" with him even during the A, wasn't actively trying to find ways to have sex with him, that she was just being incredibly selfish and taking what she could get when she could get it. She also says that by letting him be the one initiating every time, it helped her maintain a sense that she was just "along for the ride" and not doing something so horrible. She claims that the only sober time (which was the lunch date that went to an apartment) she felt very bad about it and she is 90% sure they didn't have sex, even though she did get him off and then they showered together.

She says that after this time, they did not go out together again as she thinks she was sort of "withdrawing" from the A, even though she didn't formally break it off. The next and last time she saw him, she says they ended up at a dance club together unexpectedly (didn't go together) and that he tried to get her to leave with him again, but she said no because she was with other friends (she did admit she probably would have otherwise) but did kiss him privately before leaving separately. He then texted her later that night and said "why are you being such a tease", which is the text I found and led to our first d-day, where she lied to me and told me that they had only kissed, hence the "such a tease" text. I bought it and got lied to for a decade and then some.

My wife has put together a timeline and she has tried to use the "bookends" just like you came up with, based on her time working at the retail store with POSOM and leaving for a new job. She thinks she has it down to within a few months. The weather where we live can vary drastically in winter/spring, which makes it tough. I am trying to not care too much and focus on what matters. The problem is it all matters to me.

The way you feel really resonates with me. I also feel like I'm dying inside everyday and I'm just a shadow of who I used to be before discovering the affair. I think since a relationship is founded on trust, and that is taken away, it makes you question everything. I totally understand how you feel because I'm in the same boat. You are not alone in these feelings. It's like everything you thought you knew is a lie. I'm hoping these are just emotions we have to go through to get past this, but sometimes it seems like I'm just stuck.

Sorry Mamabear. I hate it so much. I hate what I have to accept, and know, and live with, in order to keep living my life. It is the most unfair thing in the world.

This person is also FB friends with OM, who my wife swears she has not thought about since the A in 2006.

I doubt she hasn't thought about the OM.

You can verify this yourself but my experience with Facebook is that FB routinely prompts me to be friends with: friends of my friends.

Therefore, as a result of Facebook's prompts, your wife may have been aware of her x lover's Facebook profile. I'm not sure under what circumstances the prompts occur.

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 5:39 PM, December 10th (Monday)]

Sorry this is hitting you so hard right now. Just keep moving forward. I suggested detaching somewhat, not to punish her, but to help you begin to make sense of things without her constant presence. Maybe a week or two away with a sibling or parents would be a good way to accomplish this.

Also, you’ve assessed her current remorse level correctly, in my opinion. There is a nugget of remorse (she had nothing to gain by telling the truth, but did so anyway), but she truly doesn’t understand the impact of the betrayal (unfair in its own right) and continued lies about it (exponentially more unfair given you wound up married under false pretenses). You have every right to be furious with her because she, the person who was supposed to have your back, took away your ability to make an informed choice with your life. Her behavior is a deal breaker, period. In fact, it has forever altered the M that was/is. You simply must decide if you can attempt to build something new with her. She needs to show you she is worthy of that chance if you decide you can R. I don’t think she has yet.

Your WW (referring strictly to wayward mentality here) really needs an IC who specializes in infidelity. The 10+ years she’s had to make peace with her actions is actually working against her in this case. For you to have a chance at R she needs to truly understand what her actions have done to you, and I fear an IC inexperienced in infidelity will do more harm than good.

I know I've said it before, but I'll remind you to give it time and even implement a bit of "soft 180" to give your head some space. I'd offer a few thoughts, in no particular order.

This will without doubt be a defining event of your marriage. Note I do not say THE defining event. It will be A defining event. The birth of your children are also defining events. The actual wedding, the exchange of vows. The mutual decision to actually get marriage (by the way, did that occur before or after the A?). The death of parents.

This event could in the long run make your marriage uniquely stronger than many. At this point in a marriage many couples are starting that drift toward indifference that results in A's around year 20-25. In contrast, the catharsis in your marriage is causing a sort of raw, naked confrontation that in the long run could end run that in your case.

I note you said that the one lunch encounter, they went to an apartment. But it wasn't his, and it wasn't yours. Whose was it? Was somebody enabling/encouraging the A, or did the dude simply have a buddy who loaned him the keys like guys sometimes do?

Similarly, where were they when FB friend woman walked in on them? An apartment? A back room at a club?

The reason I ask those questions is because I find it somewhat puzzling that they had so few sexual encounters, and because your WW has explained this as being due to a dearth of opportunities. One thing you'll see here on SI is that if two AP's wish to have sex, they'll do it literally anywhere, with cars being extremely common. In the case of your WW, she was willing to have sex at least once in a place that was not private, where a third party was able to walk in on them. And we gather that they had the use of somebody's apartment if they wanted. In other words, she wasn't especially picky about the venue and they had venues available if they wanted. I think it's safe to assume that, since the AP was a dude, he was down for sex whenever and wherever your WW was willing. So that leads to the conclusion that there were other limiting factors. My guess is that she wasn't really that into it, which is consistent with the description of her going along with it if he put enough effort, and time into cajoling her and both of them coincidentally being out at the same time, and her being intoxicated, which is also consistent with her description of herself as being the type who tends to get "hooked" on male attention, or substances, or such. The one time she agreed to meet him sober, in the light of day, was the time she realized she wasn't into it and she walked.

As to the asshole, you mentioned he is married. Do you have any way of determining whether the woman he is married to is the woman he was dating back during the A? If you do talk to FB friend, and you are careful about how you ask those questions, you might find out. If it is the same woman, one step to consider would be to tell her about the A, and do it without informing your WW that you are going to do so. First, it would be the decent thing to do. Second, it might flush out very quickly whether there are communication channels still open from him to her.

I wouldn't put too much stock in the FB friends thing. I have over a hundred FB friends. Sometimes (like on my BD) I get greetings from FB friends and at this stage of life I have no idea who they even are. Often I "like" birthday greetings out of a sense of courtesy. It is considered sort of a FB convention for indicating a lite "thank you". You said your WW wasn't on FB in 2006. That means she must have created her profile new in about 2007 or 2008. You know what happens then. The FB algorithm recommends hundreds of friend connections, and typically people click "accept" without even really looking.

Which leads me to this:

She is still a serial liar and deceiver, and she was comfortable being friends with this POS and having her post "happy birthday" on her fucking Facebook page every year. This person is also FB friends with OM, who my wife swears she has not thought about since the A in 2006. The feels like bullshit given this new evidence. Every single year, since 2008, this person posted "Happy Birthday" on my wife's Facebook and in 2013, my wife even 'liked' the post. To me, this shows how little she cares about me or respects me. How could she respect me and accept being friends with this person?

I think "serial liar" is strong. She is Trickle Truthing you, but that doesn't rise to the level of "serial liar". It's fair to remind her that TT is a form of mental cruelty and she should avoid it at all costs, but I think "serial liar" is a bit strong. The one common trait we see among many/most WS's is that they are conflict avoiders. TT and minimizing come from this trait. But aren't we all guilty of this at some level? How many guys have come stumbling home on a Friday night after a few too many with the boys, but when the wife asks how much we've had to drink, we say something like "just a few beers"?

By the way, the woman who walked in on them, is it possible that she was a vector in the A stopping? Did she possible confront your WW and say something like, "What the heck are you doing? What is wrong with you? You have a good man at home!"

I'm sure your WW has thought about the A since 2006. You have, after all, asked her about it multiple times, and each time until now she has decided to lie to you. In other words, your marital conversation has reminded her of the A naturally because of your questions. But saying she hasn't thought about it isn't a lie. I doubt she has thought of the AP wistfully, or fondly. Rather, I reckon her thoughts have been along the lines of "I wish that had never happened, oh my God I feel so shitty about that, what can I do to make it go away?".

Keep in mind that voluntary confessions like your WW's are rare, at least here on SI. They are especially rare long after the fact. Usually, those kinds of WS's take that to the grave. To me it reflects the fact that your WW has evolved and matured and, more than that, her direction has been toward a stronger love and higher regard for you. That, to me, is the big picture issue. She was once young, somewhat unstable, somewhat dependent on affirmation from others. She drank too much. She made horrible decisions. Over the years she has become somebody different, somebody better. Most important, she had come to hold your right to the truth higher than her own comfort or safety. That is something to both cherish and respect.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 7:26 AM, December 11th (Tuesday)]