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A place to puzzle out and get feedback, from all.

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onlytime ( member #45817) posted at 2:45 PM on Sunday, February 3rd, 2019

I need to read and reread this and process

How's the processing going MySunandStars?

R'd w/ BetterFuture13
T 20+ yrs w/ adult kids 😇 + grands
"The greatest glory in living lies not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall" ~Nelson Mandela

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sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 4:56 PM on Sunday, February 3rd, 2019

I'm going to write as if this is simple stuff. Maybe it is simple, but it's really difficult to actually do. I think it's necessary, though.

Oh, boy. I used to hate when my W made assumptions about what I wanted or needed. (I still hate it, but she does it a lot less than 8 years ago.)

This bugs me:

Then I tried using that time to ask what he needs, what is helpful but that isn't useful or productive because it doesn't show me being proactive or that I am willing to take the lead on healing this shit show.

You can't read his mind. Asking him what he wants/needs IS taking initiative. It IS being proactive. It IS caring. It does show love.

It also puts your BS on the spot, but he should be on that spot.

Your H is the only one who can heal him. You can't. An MC can't. An IC can't. He has to heal himself, just as you have to heal yourself.

If he wants your help and support, he must tell you what help and support he wants.

***********

I'm going to suggest being and sharing yourself.

My W at one point - early on - almost forced hugs on me. Then she shifted to asking me if I wanted one. Then she shifted to offering one. Then she shifted to saying she really wanted to hug me. Then she started asking for a hug. Now she does what's appropriate at the moment (except for forcing hugs on me).

She used to make assumptions about what I was feeling. Then she started asking me what I felt. Now she tells me what she's assuming and then asks me what I'm feeling. See ... now she shares and asks.

It's funny how it works out. She used to force 'love' on me when I was sick. I hated it. I wanted to withdraw, and that's what I did. I've been sick for the last 10 days ... and I've asked her for support. She backed off, and I figured out that I wanted something she could give.

*****

You've cheated and lied. You can't change that. There's no way to make up for that. That's just the way life is. The best you can do now is live honestly - no more lies. That's all you owe yourself and your H. I believe that has to be enough for you, because you live with yourself. If your H wants to R, it needs to be enough for him, too - if it's not, he's asking the impossible.

Your post reads like you're co-dependent. Whatever, it's clear that you don't read your H's non-verbal communications accurately.

That's not a crime - it just means you have to communicate with words until you learn to read his non-verbals. He has to do the same.

R has to be cooperative, by definition. You build a new M by living the new M.

Be yourself. If you're like my W, you're afraid your H won't like the real you. The terribly sad thing for me is that the things my W dislikes about herself are the very things that hooked me and kept me happily hooked.

But the outcome doesn't matter. If you don't like each other, you probably should split anyway - but you probably do like each other. Another outcome you have to let go of....

Be yourself. If your H lets himself be himself, you have a good chance for R. At least IMO.

Sorry for the rambling....

[This message edited by sisoon at 11:00 AM, February 3rd (Sunday)]

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex apDDay - 12/22/2010Recover'd and R'edYou don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

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Tallgirl ( member #64088) posted at 1:26 AM on Monday, February 4th, 2019

MySunandStars, the articles posted by OnlyTime are excellent. I am a BS and this resonated. Particularly validating feelings.

I feel like an emotional ping pong. I want my WH to truly understand what I feel, to ask, to validate, to own the consequences of what he chose, to stop avoiding my pain, his shame. To really see himself, to understand himself and be present. And lastly to desire me. To need me like I needed him before he broke us. To understand how to put my emotional well-being before his.

I feel he is faking it. I know when he is only part there. When he just wants to get on with life. This is why I withdraw and say fuck you.

He is afraid of saying the wrong thing. So he says nothing. This is not good. It could end us.

I suggest you follow the advice given and be real. Truely empathize and validate what he is experiencing. Tell him Your fear of doing something wrong. Slow down and be present. with him.

Keep working at it. I can see you really care.

[This message edited by Tallgirl at 7:28 PM, February 3rd (Sunday)]

Standing tall

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 MySunandStars (original poster member #63763) posted at 5:48 PM on Tuesday, February 5th, 2019

Hoo, Sorry for the delay. You have all been so generous with your thoughts and sharing and I have been reading them over and over and working to see the problems you have all pointed out and how to address them. Thank you all.

@FoenixRising: Thanks for continuing to engage. I appreciate it. I have asked for space and processing without any progress on my part of getting it. Tapping into my heart and responding from my heart in the moment, that is the goal. I have been practicing that over the last few days with some mixed success. But, I will keep working at it. Thank you.

@foreverlabeled: Thank you for pointing out the connection between owning it and getting it and getting it and safety. I see how I have wanted to put space between who I have been and who I am trying to be right now. And that is not owning it, nor is it my BH's current reality. And as long as I try to say, that's not me now or anything similar I am not owning it nor getting it, nor am I safe. This has become clear to me over the last week. Which points to me not leaning into what I have done as fully as I convinced myself I did. I have made some progress with this since posting, and am working to suss out what more I have avoided.

Thank you for talking about expressing that you want your BH to be open and honest with you knowing that he will likely be more pissed and you will have shit emotions to deal with on your own. This is really helpful to me. I think for some reason I had the impression that if I was doing it "right" that it would feel better than it does. (trying to control the outcome much?) And it's helpful to know that inviting BH to share, and sharing with him my shit, it doesn't really feel that great and that's normal.

Your question about how can I forget so easily the hurts and needs he expresses, it's one I have been carrying around with me since you asked it. I see how I have tried to focus on the "solution" to "fix" the need or the hurt. And as I have approached it this way I have not been truly internalizing and sitting with it. Jumping to fix it mode, and assuming if I do or don't do X then it will be better. And then when that doesn't work, trying to figure out what will. All of this means that I have not been looking at the hurt and the need. I am seeing this pattern now. And I have been working over the last few days with conversations to stop myself from jumping to fix it mode, or try to defend what I Thought was something helpful. I can see how my fear,shame and anxiety were--are-- keeping me from really listening and feeling. And how "Fix it mode" is selfish and just about making me feel better. I have a lot of work to do here.

Your words and thoughts have been helpful, I can feel myself letting go of the fear a little more, letting go of the shame a little more, getting myself in a place where I Can access my heart and humbly try to connect.

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 MySunandStars (original poster member #63763) posted at 6:44 PM on Tuesday, February 5th, 2019

@onlytime: Thank you for sending me these resources and for checking in with me. You made some really well articulated and clear points that are very helpful. Moving from what showing empathy looks like to feeling empathy. I identify with all 5 of the barriers to empathy to varying degrees at different times and this article is super helpful, I am incorporating this into my self talk--to drop these barriers in the moment. I know that feeling shame in these moments makes it about me and puts my feelings first. Thank you so much. This is exactly the kind of information that I need to work through my shit on my own time and show up. It is a lot and a bit overwhelming but I can break it down into pieces as I work through it. I still need to look at the links and websites and videos you suggested and will do that this week.

@Zugzwang: Thank you for reminding me that he isn't ready for me to say, " Iwill never do that again, that's not me anymore" Frankly I don't think it should be part of my thoughts either. I can see how I have been denying him his reality. To make myself feel less bad or more capable. At his expense. This is super shitty. Thank you for pointing this out. I know he has tried to communicate it to me too and I haven't really gotten it. I am starting to, but have a lot more to dig into still. Thank you for the reminder to stop running from the pain, he is experiencing so much more pain than I am and to not face mine and be with him while he faces his is unacceptable and not who I want to be.

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 MySunandStars (original poster member #63763) posted at 8:37 PM on Tuesday, February 5th, 2019

@hikingout: I haven't been checked for ADHD, I tried watching myself this weekend from this point of view, I don't think it's part of it. But, I will definitely keep it in mind. I do have a hard time multi-tasking and do move between tasks more than I should, but it stems from not wanting to forget to do things. Which, I think comes from wanting to do things perfectly. My BH has also pointed out that I won't commit to things unless I am sure I can do it and do it perfectly. So, there is a lot to let go of here. I also know that I do get overwhelmed fairly easily, so it's building resilience around that as well as skills to manage it --enabling me to be truly present.

If I had to pinpoint the broader issues that interfere with me communicating is I need to stop trying to be understood and just focus on understanding him. Which isn't some new idea to me, but one that I do find I need to remind myself of over and over.

@Root: I see a theme here of being told to stop trying to control the outcome. It always seems like I think I've got that figured out and then find myself doing it again. I need to pay better attention, be more mindful, let go of the idea that something I can do today will fix things, but also remember that each day, each moment is either a small drop in the bucket or me kicking the bucket over.

@sisoon: Thanks for taking the time to chime in. IT's true that most of these principles are not difficult in theory, but the practice can be. I appreciate you sharing your perspective of navigating through this from a BS point of view. The descriptions you provided of moving from one style of communicating to another were interesting and nice to see how it's not a clear move from one to the other. The messiness of this, the day to dayness, I need to embrace it more.

@Tallgirl: Thanks for your input. The description of an emotional ping pong is poignant and helpful. That must be so exhausting. thank you for telling me what you need and how your WH not saying anything because he doesn't want to say the wrong thing is so hurtful. This is me. To a T, and I need to step out of this fear and say something. I hope your WH figures it out, I am so sorry he is like that. Thank you for sharing this difficult thing, my BH must be feeling so similarly to this and there are obviously things I can do to change that part of it.

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 MySunandStars (original poster member #63763) posted at 12:51 AM on Wednesday, February 13th, 2019

I want to thank all of you again who took the time to respond and engage and help me.

I wish I could say I see it all now and it makes perfect sense and I have executed it perfectly. Yup, I see how I am trying to control the outcome. It's becoming more apparent to me how much time and energy and good will I have wasted looking for the "fix".

Trying to pin down how to show empathy is missing the mark. It's just me trying to show change without being change. Is it a fake it til I make it thing? In some ways yes. I know I have changed in my heart, in my feelings, and in my thoughts and figuring out how to communicate that is proving difficult. But I think it points to not having experienced as much change as I assumed. Maybe I should say I am changing, because it's not a completed process and never should be. I am closer to who I was than who I am striving to be still and I'm not happy with where I am.

And I see how trying to figure out what empathy looks like is still trying to control the outcome. It's still trying to fix things. There is this thing in me that keeps rearing it's head, and it's selfish, it's all about helping me feel better. I tell myself, don't try to fix things MSAS, just be present and listen and engage but the desire to fix keeps showing up in ways I don't expect and see.

Wanting to know how to show it isn't just about fixing it, it's about not having to take any risks. If I can lay out the parameters of what is acceptable and what works then I can work within those parameters and have a guaranteed win. I won't hurt BH, he will feel heard and loved, I will have done the right thing, and we are moving forward. It's not that way in real life. It's messy and confusing and involves some critical thinking, problem solving, placing myself in BH shoes and then at some point there is the risk. Without the risk I don't show up.

I have been unwilling to take the risk. Which means that I have also been unwilling to be vulnerable and show love, and maybe get it wrong, and fuck up again but also maybe actually get it. I am becoming more and more aware of how little I have shown up in my marriage and in my life. And the pain it has and is causing BH is palpable and inexcusable.

I am afraid this is going to come off like I get it or had some big epiphany. I feel just as lost as ever. A little less driven by fear, a little less clouded by shame but still unsure. And the sense of urgency I feel to find a path still leads me down not thinking things through and just trying whatever and seeing if it sticks. I must pull back from this. Recalibrate. How do I do that? (Both rhetorically asking and genuinely asking)

Thank you for reading and sharing if you choose.

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foreverlabeled ( member #52070) posted at 2:30 PM on Wednesday, February 13th, 2019

I must pull back from this. Recalibrate. How do I do that? (Both rhetorically asking and genuinely asking)

I want to come back later when I have time to respond more in depth. But I have a suggestion that you can begin with and think about. I know this will be easier said than done, however, maybe you could start with removing the word "fix" from your thoughts/vocabulary and replace it with any version of "heal". Let that consume you, soak it in, put some mental energy into what it means vs. fixing. Do some research and learn if you don't know exactly. Play around with different scenarios that you would normally go into fix it mode except vision yourself in heal it mode. Pay attention to the differences and how much selflessness it involves, how you might be fearful, or fuck it up.

And let me just leave you with this. We all fuck it up sometimes. We don't always get it right. This was foreign to me, I really didn't know what I was doing. But it was in those moments that I got it wrong that I learned what I needed to do differently or better. And I got many chances to practice what he needed, and still to this day I get it wrong sometimes. But I don't let fear stop my in my tracks like I used to. The more you conquer your fears the more courageous you'll feel. For me that feeling fueled my self esteem and gave me the confidence to get back in there and do this with him.

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hikingout ( member #59504) posted at 2:49 PM on Wednesday, February 13th, 2019

@hikingout: I haven't been checked for ADHD, I tried watching myself this weekend from this point of view, I don't think it's part of it. But, I will definitely keep it in mind. I do have a hard time multi-tasking and do move between tasks more than I should, but it stems from not wanting to forget to do things. Which, I think comes from wanting to do things perfectly. My BH has also pointed out that I won't commit to things unless I am sure I can do it and do it perfectly. So, there is a lot to let go of here. I also know that I do get overwhelmed fairly easily, so it's building resilience around that as well as skills to manage it --enabling me to be truly present.

If I had to pinpoint the broader issues that interfere with me communicating is I need to stop trying to be understood and just focus on understanding him. Which isn't some new idea to me, but one that I do find I need to remind myself of over and over.

I can completely relate to what you are saying. I am a recovering perfectionist myself. I have learned that perfectionism is a defense mechanism because of a great fear of failure or of criticism from others. Where does the fear come from? I can't remember if you are in IC, most of mine were from FOO issues.

And, you hit the nail on the head. I too had to learn to communicate to understand rather than forcing my agenda of being misunderstood.

That one paragraph you have written has a lot of really great stuff for you to really look at and practice. Getting rid of the perfectionism is something I am still trying to practice. It makes you feel very vulnerable. I still have a long ways to go on that, but I can now at least recognize when it's happening, I can ask myself what my worst fears about that situation is, and then kind of tell myself a different story about it. That helps. But, that is a character trait that is very ingrained and touches so much in our life. It does get easier and better, but you have to be mindful of it all the time.

8 years of hard work - WS and BS - Reconciled

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foreverlabeled ( member #52070) posted at 10:08 PM on Wednesday, February 13th, 2019

Let's talk risk,

First the obvious, you have already risked it all as far as your BH is concerned. KWIM? So, at this point the only thing you have left to risk there, is doing nothing. I will let you in on a little secret. Our BSs, those who chose to stay and see what happens, they already know that our thinking is flawed, they know just how wrong we already got it. And I'm willing to bet they know we are going to fuck up along the way. In my own experience and in my time here, what I've read is that what they want is some kind of action, that they want to see us trying. Imagine the kind of risks they take! How many times they are left frustrated and hurting as we try to navigate what safety is to them. As we learn how to be healthier. No matter how scary you think it is for you, it's 100x more scarier for them, and the risks are far greater.

Now, personal risks. Everything I've ever read about vulnerability is that it takes a risk. A risk of being rejected, hurt, or met with indifference. And ALL of these things can leave us with shitty feelings. And to just add on to the fear, we go into it knowing we will probably receive a varying amount of all of these things because ya know our BSs have reason to. But try this on for size, get used to the idea that you have to eventually get used to those kinds of emotions. We cannot go about life avoiding the bad emotions and sucking up the good ones. It's okay to feel shitty. That's why we need to learn how to cope with the bad emotions. Realize it's really not THAT big of a deal. Give yourself permission to experience the feelings that you'll have as a result of being vulnerable, BOTH good or bad.

If you are mindful of walking into a situation with your BH were vulnerability it needed, you'll feel that knee jerk reaction to put up a wall. I don't see any problem with communicating to your BH that it's happening and that you need just a moment to talk yourself out of it. I believe it's our wonderful guide here on the WS forum that puts it like "rewiring" your brain. These are the exact moments where it counts the most. Our BSs want to see this!

MSAS, I don't think there's been a WS that graced these pages that was as scared as I was. EVERYTHING seemed so scary about this. And ya know, facing fears was never my strong suit. It's okay to be scared, but this situation calls for an act of bravery I personally never thought was in me. I proved MYSELF wrong time and time again. Throughout this process of surviving infidelity there was always a particular reason why I was able to push my fears aside. At first it was the sole reason of NOT wanting to lose my H. If someone told me or I read that this was what I needed to do, I did it, no thought to it. Okay not exactly, sometimes it took a day or two to work up my courage, but still I made it happen. There was nothing quite like my greatest fear to make me fearless. Once I started getting used to it, I realized how silly I've been to avoid such things.

I'll finish with this,

I know this will be easier said than done, however, maybe you could start with removing the word "fix" from your thoughts/vocabulary and replace it with any version of "heal". Let that consume you, soak it in, put some mental energy into what it means vs. fixing.

Most of what we do requires a different attitude and mindset. I too had an issue with wanting to fix it. When we fuck something up it's kinda natural I think to want to fix it. That works with just about everything but this. I personally found it rather heartbreaking that I couldn't fix it. And it took time to realize all I could to was help to heal the situation. So I had to do a 180 of my own and adjust my mindset. We are pretty limited in the help we can offer, but the help we can offer can make all the difference in the world. When I think about fixing something I think about tangible things I can do to repair it. But there's no one thing I can do to fix my H's broken heart. But to heal? I can offer a lot there. To make it more human than what "how to help your spouse heal.." offers, I don't know exactly just how to describe the healing aspect I mentioned for you to replace "fix" with. I know it's fluid, and it's a warm energy, it's compassionate and loving. It's definitely understanding and allowing grace for how he expresses his anger and pain (zero defenses). I can sit with him in his pain and validate it. And I ASK him what he needs from me and I do my best at all costs and all the personal risks involved to do what is needed. This was my doing and it takes undoing everything I thought.

I hope some of that helps.

[This message edited by foreverlabeled at 4:13 PM, February 13th (Wednesday)]

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 MySunandStars (original poster member #63763) posted at 2:07 AM on Thursday, February 14th, 2019

@foreverlabeled: The whole time I read your post I though to myself, this response is the kind of thing my BH needs from me. Thank you for showing me.

I read your first note early today and have been thinking on it all day. It’s a very helpful rewiring trick. I have come up with my word, it’s actually one I have picked before, but I wasn’t substituting it for fix. And when I was using it I still had the idea of fixing in my mind . It’s a whole idea replacement, not just one word. I also did some reading on fixing vs healing to help me see what I didn't see before. It's not just that i want to fix things, but I want it to be a quick fix, check, easy, done. And that is lazy, selfish, fantasy bullshit.

What you said about risk, is so similar to the thoughts I have been having about it to. I see how I was willing to take risks when I thought it might benefit me. The selfishness this exposes in me is deeply gross and disturbing. I also see how not acting, not doing is still choosing risk, it’s just one I’m comfortable with. And as I have clearly demonstrated my comfort is paramount. The risk my BH takes everyday is of super heroic proportions and it’s cowardly and selfish of me to not even face myself in the mirror.

This need to fix is deep and I get petulant and angry when I can't fix things. And that is the attitude I have lived my life in and have hurt attempts at healing from. And Yes, this is helpful. Not just the thoughts you have shared but your example of compassion. Thank you for engaging and giving of yourself.

I feel guilty for the kindness you have all given me by responding and working through this. I know my BH needs a safe place, a respite to work through his things and I have not been that place for him.

@hikingout: Thank you for your thoughts about questions to ask myself. IT does touch so much. I think my wanting to do things right is about not wanting to get in trouble, and not wanting to fail. I have approached working on my shit this way too. Only looking at things I think I can tackle in the moment, minimizing other things, completely blocking out the overwhelming ones. IT's atrocious. And I am afraid I will get tired, or stuck, or fail, or anxiety or shame will come back in full force and I won't handle it well. But today I'm not feeling those things so I'm trying to shore my defenses against them and dig in.

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 MySunandStars (original poster member #63763) posted at 2:16 AM on Thursday, February 28th, 2019

Rereading, I need to revisit my post in the morning.

[This message edited by MySunandStars at 10:36 PM, February 27th (Wednesday)]

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onlytime ( member #45817) posted at 1:40 PM on Sunday, March 3rd, 2019

How are things going MySunandStars?

R'd w/ BetterFuture13
T 20+ yrs w/ adult kids 😇 + grands
"The greatest glory in living lies not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall" ~Nelson Mandela

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Coreofsteel ( member #62501) posted at 4:19 AM on Tuesday, March 5th, 2019

Hi there,I’m a BS hoping to be helpful.

I feel like empathy is kind of like a muscle. Practice it. Imagine what you would feel if you were the stressed lady at the bank, or the person that really needed to use the bathroom. Practice looking at things from others point of view. Then take that into your relationship.

How would your BS like you to show empathy? Physically? With words? Emotionally? What feels authentic to them? Maybe have a conversation about what empathy looks like and feels like.

I hope this helps.

ME: BS. Together with wayward spouse for 4 years. D-Day Jan 24, 2018. D-Day #2 Feb 5, 2018. D-day #3 from numerous other people, March 15. D-day #4 April 9, sex with more people and a hooker. NO future.

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 MySunandStars (original poster member #63763) posted at 9:25 PM on Wednesday, March 6th, 2019

@coreofsteel. thanks for reaponding. I agree, it is like a muscle. I have felt it grow as I have practiced getting out of my own way to use it. I know I can not know what he is experiencing and how he feels and to assume or try is insulting. I do know the pain and hurt and trauma I have inflicted on him is very real and I see ways that I have not made space for that and I am working on changing that.

Thank you for asking onlytime. I am okay.

I have been needing to respond here for more than a week, started writing posts multiple times only to delete it or get interrupted and not finish. This is a common problem for me, one that I am working to be more aware of and see how it is affecting my BH healing and reconciliation attempt.

I need to respond today I promised myself for the last 3 days that I would get to it and I can’t let today go by and break my promise to myself again. But I’m typing on my phone so hopefully it isn’t terrible.

I have had some eye opening experiences into my defense mechanisms this last week. I was basically on the receiving end of my dad blame shifting, minimizing, personalizing, and not taking responsibility for some stuff that has been going on, and I sat there listening to him realizing how crazy and stupid and disgusting and gross I sound and how much of my BH grace and time I have wasted engaging in these petty self protective ways. I’m glad I had the experience. And I didn’t wallow in shame afterwards which is a positive step forward.

I have a lot to do.

The part I need to figure out right now, is how to proactively talk with BH. Not just being comfortable in the uncomfortable but actively jumping into the uncomfortable for him. I get tongue twisted and anxious and it comes out weird and awkward and exhausting for him. There is more to suss out here. I’m working on it. I will post more later, realistically probably not until Friday. Thanks for reading.

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foreverlabeled ( member #52070) posted at 9:40 PM on Thursday, March 7th, 2019

The part I need to figure out right now, is how to proactively talk with BH. Not just being comfortable in the uncomfortable but actively jumping into the uncomfortable for him. I get tongue twisted and anxious and it comes out weird and awkward and exhausting for him.

I get the impression that your BH has been more than patient with you here, considering. That the anxiety comes from your own fears, in other words, you are in a safe environment with him. So with that in mind, I have a suggestion.

Initiate one of these hard conversations. Tell yourself this is about to happen. You will get scared and anxious but since you are going to be the one bringing it up, don't approach the conversation until you give yourself a moment to quiet your stress response. Do some research and figure out what technique will work best for you.

Once you can breathe and fear isn't an issue, it will open you up to different emotions that are far better suited for the situation. Fear literally blunts your emotional capabilities. I'm not so sure you are incapable of showing empathy, I think you are still deep in fear. You still want to protect yourself but why? I used to think this was the worst time ever to try and start the vulnerability train. The more I think about it the more I'm like why not? My H is the perfect person to learn this with. I mean he knows me better than my mama at this point. He knows things.. he knows my weaknesses and my strengths. He's the only person I have ever let the closest to my true self be known. He's still here so that says something to me. I don't have to be afraid with him. And I don't think you need to be afraid with your BH either.

Another thing, I'm sure before this you were never in a position where you've had to have these kinds of conversation. I know I wasn't, I had zero experience. This whole journey was foreign to me. BUT these conversations are hard. Just last night H brought up something taking us back to my A and I still got panicky. I've had a lot of practice though and I can bring myself back. And that's what it takes. practice. I don't think you've done enough in the moments that you've had to center yourself and let go of the fear. We've talked about your fear cycle elsewhere and I can't help but think this is the reason you struggle here. It's pure fear.

Initiating the conversation is a win-win for you. Not only is it something most BSs wish from us, because truth is they have it on their mind all the time, even when they aren't exactly expressive about it. It helps to know their pain is on our mind too. So there's that and you get to practice calming yourself before hand. I think you will be better prepared to drape yourself in humility and compassion entering the conversation. Which means you'll be better able to really hear him and step into his pain.

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 MySunandStars (original poster member #63763) posted at 12:42 AM on Friday, April 5th, 2019

@foreverlabeled: My BH has been more than patient. More than compassionate and understanding. I have wasted so much time and opportunity that now the stakes are super high. IT's my fault. I know it. I am not one of those people that performs well under pressure and I need to be.

I know you're right about my fear. I have these moments where I don't feel afraid and it's so freeing and it's so clear what I can do. And when I allow the fear to set in again I can't see anything else. I came to the realization today that I have been working under the idea that I can act through my fear or in spite of it. But that's not working for me. I have to let it go completely, put it completely aside. Otherwise it is still present and that is the trump card in my head. So, I am coming up with a concrete plan to dismiss fear. Not that I expect to erradicate fear or keep it at bay all the time, but a plan that allows me to box it up, put it aside, or dismiss it momentarily to attend to BH in ways that are congruent with what I truly desire.

What I have so far:

1. Recognize what I’m feeling, fear, anxiety, worry, whatever it is that is getting in the way.

2. Acknowledge what I’m feeling. "I see you"

3. Tell it to leave, not repress, or hide from it or push it down- just let it know it’s not welcome and it needs to leave as its getting in the way.

4. Perform a few physical acts that ground me. For me that is a tapping exercise, a literal touchstone, remembering a smell, and if not in a conversation with BH, music.

That is as far as I have made it. I know there are more steps as this sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. And even when it does work it's more of getting through it not putting it aside.

What do you guys think? How can I improve my plan, and what steps might I be missing?

posts: 108   ·   registered: May. 11th, 2018
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Zugzwang ( member #39069) posted at 3:08 PM on Friday, April 5th, 2019

This shit and rewiring your brain can be exhausting. You still have needs. You still want to feel good. What are you doing for yourself to fill that in a healthy way? You can't fix you or him on empty. It isn't wrong or selfish to make yourself healthy if you are doing it the right way. It might feel like you shouldn't or you don't deserve it. You do and need it to move forward.

"Nothing in this world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty." Teddy Roosevelt
D-day 9-4-12 Me;WS



posts: 4938   ·   registered: Apr. 23rd, 2013
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foreverlabeled ( member #52070) posted at 1:43 PM on Saturday, April 6th, 2019

Your list of tools and strategies should be helpful for you, maybe stick with what you have so far and don't overload and overthink. Work with that for now and see how you fare. If it's not helping after some time then go back and reevaluate. There's just one thing I have to offer on #3.

One of our WS in fact I believe it was Zug who used to talk a lot more about filling holes in our bucket. The name of those holes are probably different for everyone but there are some that we all might have in common (self esteem just to name one). I know you and I could name one that we share and its called courage. Fear pours out of it like sand until we build up our confidence to be courageous and every time we are we fill in that hole just a little more and then more, then! we will naturally lean towards courage rather than the old fearful escape.

I haven't accomplished this just yet, in fact I may not ever always choose courage over fear (like ride a roller coaster or have that conversation immediately) but it's more like an hourglass flow these days as opposed to a child dumping sand out of his bucket. The way I've built up that dam in the courage hole was not by dismissing my fears or boxing it up but by embracing it, feeling it, if it was intense quieting it and then doing the courageous thing anyway. If you stop trying to feel scared then there's no room to feel courage. And there's so much to reap from feeling courageous. It's okay to be scared it just not okay to let it stop you.

If you can act bravely while still feeling scared that is what will get you places. I actually needed this for myself today. I've been putting off a conversation with my boss for.. jeez a month now? Anyway today "might" be the day. Just typing that out put fear in me! Here's to courage for us all.

posts: 2597   ·   registered: Mar. 1st, 2016   ·   location: southeast
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Zugzwang ( member #39069) posted at 3:45 PM on Saturday, April 6th, 2019

I watched this show one time with my wife (who is afraid of spiders) and this therapist had people face their fears. Put them in a room with what they feared. He talked them through their anxiety. With repeated choices/exposure (I guess it became normalized) to face the fear and push through the apex of the anxiety, they got over the fear. The natural reaction is to run. You don't want to feel that height of the anxiety that fear causes. Yet, if you do..it does have a peak and will go away on the other side. It was on about the same time Hoarders was popular. Crazy stuff. They realized that there was another side to the anxiety and it wouldn't last forever. That one episode has stuck with all these years. I used it to think, damn. If that lady can sit in room with spiders crawling all over the wall after nearly passing out before she even walked in there the first time. I can face this too. You build off of that. If my wife can live through and still function after the shit she has been through, I can do this. I don't know what that is called. I don't think it is exactly mindfulness. It isn't empathy. You become less self absorbed. It just becomes logical.

"Nothing in this world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty." Teddy Roosevelt
D-day 9-4-12 Me;WS



posts: 4938   ·   registered: Apr. 23rd, 2013
id 8357950
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