SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I know this is a frequent problem for WS, we are selfish and so it is difficult for us to handle our BS pain and express empathy for what they are going through. I see my BH pain, I see it in every line of his face and I can see it in even the way he holds his body, even when sleeping. I hear his sadness and desperation in his voice, the loneliness. Every time we talk, he tries to open up to me, share with me and somehow I end up making about me instead of offering empathy which is what I thought I was doing. I think it through ask myself what he is feeling and to acknowledge it and understand how he feels that is is. I tell myself to ask questions to better understand how he is feeling and to show that I genuinely want to know more. Our conversations that I usually feel go well are when he is holding me up, talking to me about how to fix things or suggestions to help me. I guess I am wondering if anyone out there has experienced anything like this or has any suggestions on how to improve this.

You swore an emotional and physical intimacy to him in front of God, family, and friends and you turned around and gave it to another man. And likely did it with his suspicions on full alert. So right away, you’re showing a lack of empathy in the act itself.

You have completely emasculated your BH. He lived his life with pride and dignity knowing that he loved you and you loved him completely, and that he could be your provider and confident and protector. And he also lived with the internal peace that you would always do everything in you power to protect his heart and his well-being.

And then you didn’t.

This is what he’s going through. He’s trying to piece back together an emotional timeline that YOU destroyed. And he has no idea what kind of tools it takes to do it. So he’s flailing yet he doesn’t want to become vulnerable to you because deep down he no longer feels safe with you.

You need to restore trust in his heart. And that only comes with time and repeated consistent work from you.

Right now he is driving the R. YOU SHOULD BE DOING THAT.

Are you in IC?

There's no way that you could fully understand his pain. You got what you wanted, in spite of how you may have effected him. You got your side-thrill. He got horrifically mind-fucked. You didn't suffer anything. He lost everything and will suffer for a long time.

PS: This may not be the right forum to post this.

[This message edited by squid at 1:03 PM, February 20th, 2019 (Wednesday)]

[This message edited by Pippin at 7:22 PM, March 18th (Monday)]

My previous post may have come off as harsh.

I apologize. But it's really meant as a 2x4.

Betrayal is brutal. Plain and simple.

Understanding this will truly help you to empathize with your BH. It's like he's trying to perform triage on his own sliced femoral artery except he has no skills to do so. Maybe you don't either. But showing him that you are "all in" in trying to save him will restore trust. And maybe help you gain a little more empathy.

I don't believe the WS can have the same amount of empathy as the BS. Maybe over time. But for a while the two of you will not be on the same page.

Good luck.

Squid, your post did not come off as harsh, honest. And I appreciate your concern about the response I may receive posting in general, however I feel like part of what make SI si helpful to us wayward is the blunt honesty that is delivered. I dont want to hide from any perspectives, honestly I did the worst thing humanly possible to my BH, so harsh responses here are the least I deserve. I am not seeking it in some form of self punishment, but I won't hide from any thing if there is a potential for useful information. I know general gets a bit more traffic which is why I choose to post here. Unless I am doing something wrong by doing so or offending anyone, then please let me know and I will correct that. I am in IC, just recently found one that seems worth anything.What you say could have come directly from my BH mouth. My BH has always been the fixer, and I know deep down I have been waiting for him to fix this as well. And I know he cannot. Posting here is my first step at trying to take the reins of our recovery. I am have done superficial things to show I am all in but it hasn't been real which is why we are still here in this shit. I have lacked in consistency throughout this whole process and you have made me think that that lack of consistency is also a giant lack of empathy. I worry about how to react to the feelings he expresses in the moment but not the longer term feelings he has expressed. By remaining consistent in my actions show empathy with how that consistency or lack there of makes him feel as well as his stated needs. This makes a lot of sense to me. Maybe reframing my perspective in this way will help me be all in. That the day to day doesn't matter as much as the week upon week, if that makes any sense. Thank you.

Imagine finding out one day that your mother doesnt actually love you, that you were adopted so she could win a bet, and that she only keeps talking to you because shes going to ask you to pay for her retirement home.

Imagine a friend shows you a video where youre passed out at a party and sodomized by a stranger and you have no memory of this.

Imagine your boss fires you one day but youre blindsided because at every yearly evaluation he said you were doing a great job.

Now imagine rolling the weird, terrible feelings youd have from all 3 events into one single event. Now imagine that your legal recourse to get back at any of these people is severely limited and, in fact, they might take YOUR money and stuff now that youve found out about these things.

Thats what being cheated on is like.

Wow! I could have written your posts. (As I’m sitting up in my bedroom hiding from my H who is downstairs accepting that he needs to divorce me.) I just posted in my own thread about my lack of empathy and about how I’ve had moments of complete openness and genuine empathy but then within a couple of days I go right back to caring about myself and being defensive right before I read this.

Also, my H has also been the one holding this marriage together when it should be me. Thank you for sharing because there is some comfort in knowing I’m not the only person going through this and I’m not the only person who has been reacting this way. Please keep posting your progress and setbacks & I will too.

SeekingABetterMe,

One thing I found is that I often tried to be empathetic with my wife by trying to relate to her, using my own experiences and history to try and understand how she must feel, and sharing my stories with her in hopes that she would do the same, and see that I truly understand her feelings because I had similar experiences. In theory, this sounds like a good way to help build empathy. In practice however, it made things infinitely worse.

As you said, it ends up bringing the subject back to you, your feelings, even your understanding of his feelings, and so on. It's like selfishness turned inside-out. It's a way of relating that is probably okay to do in a less personal relationship, such as when speaking with co-workers or even strangers about something personal. But in this case, it is still just you seeing him through a lens of your own making, which again, makes it about you. I know you are trying. It's confusing and hard to see when the wayward mindset is engaged.

My suggestion to you is to simply stop. Don't try to understand how he feels, at least, not in the way you are doing it. Instead, it is time to truly listen.

When he tells you something about how he feels, listen to his words. Rather than trying to understand his feelings by associating back them back to your own feelings and experiences, make all of your questions about him. Allow him to expand and explain. For example:

(What not to do)

Him: Every time I think about you and that other person, it hurts so much. I get terrible mind movies. It affects everything in my life.

You: I feel really awful about that. I hurt too, although I know you hurt much more.

While this may look good on paper, it really just turned everything back on you. Instead:

(Try this)

Him: Every time I think about you and that other person, it hurts so much. I get terrible mind movies. It affects everything in my life.

You: Tell me more. When do you get the mind movies? What triggers you at work? How is this affecting you the most?

It's far from a perfect example, I know, however my point is that the second scenario has nothing to do with you, your feelings, or your interpretation of his feelings. Instead, you are asking him to voice his concerns, and share his feelings. Asking questions helps. Sometimes it helps to clarify feelings. For example, if says he is sad, you can ask him, "Are you sad like after spilling milk? Or sad like the day our son got deathly ill and went to the hospital?" Again, this puts all the focus on him, and allows you to bond with him by truly understanding his feelings.

My only other advice is to try and practice not thinking about your part in things, especially when negative things come up. In other words, if he says, "I'm thinking about divorce", your first instinct will likely be to think about how that would impact you. How will you feel, how will you live, what will you do, and so on... These are all valid feelings, however for the moment, you need to put them aside. Allow the moment to be about him, and him alone.

I think that last line is the most important, and it's the one thought that started to help me understand and relate to my wife. I just needed to make room for her feelings. (My IC's words.) To do this, I needed to learn to put my own feelings aside, just long enough to have a conversation, but most of all, to make it 100% about her and what she needs.

You are trying. It's a long road. I see you are new member, and if the affair is very fresh still, then my advice is to develop patience. He's still in shock and recovery literally takes years. Right now he is likely in a very raw stage, and like a flesh wound, it hurts no matter how you touch it. Once he's had a chance to heal a bit, and that might take months or years, it will be easier to relate without everything hurting all at once.

Good luck to you.

DaddyDom - I know you’re replying to SeekingABetterMe but I am in a very similar mindset. I read your response and you nailed something. I can not tell you how many times I’ve said to my H “But I know you hurt more” “I know you’re feeling more insecure” or my favorite “I know this isn’t about me and my feelings don’t matter right now but...”. I do it all the time without thinking. He knows how I’m feeling way more often than I know how he’s feeling and frankly, that’s pathetic.

I have a question though. I have always been a very emotional person. I wear my emotions on my sleeve. H has always said (and has been very annoyed) that my facial expressions give me away. I apparently have a very expressive face. And when I say I’m emotional, I mean that all of my negative emotions (sadness, anger, fear, shame...) are always expressed by crying. I cry very easily. My question is, how do I put my feelings aside and when can I let them out afterwards? How do I keep myself from crying when he tells me I how devastated and lonely he’s been when it breaks my heart that he feels that way? I know that seems like a dumb or childish question but I haven’t been able to do it consistently.

I would read what you can from the BH perspective (I can relate has its own Betrayed Menz thread). Personally, I don't think gender makes THAT much difference (the general idea is BH are more obsessed with the sex, BW more obsessed with the emotions, but personally, the lies are #1 and the sex is #2. The emotional attachment doesn't bother me as much, but everyone is different).

As to empathy - the biggest obstacle from my lens is that my WH could NOT get out of his own head. So, instead of being understanding, he just argued with my feelings. If I said I feel awful because it's raining, he'd say it's not really raining. Basically, he would do and say ANYTHING to minimize what he'd done. So he really could not face my feelings - pain and anger and all of it. That may be the most destructive thing he did - I often think it was WORSE than decades of lying and a 10-yr PA.

I recently described it as both the WS and BS are having to "get to know" the cheater parts of the WS. The BS usually had zero clue there was cheating - that their WS was capable of such immeasurable harm - to the one they supposedly loved. We have to find out WHO THE F*CK did I marry? Because we sure as heck did NOT sign up for a lifetime with someone who could DO such a thing TO US (ultimately, if we are lucky, we will come to terms with the concept that it was not about us - at all - but it's really not ANY comfort, as either "view" is awful).

On the WS side, they have invested a ton of energy into minimizing and rationalizing and compartmentalizing their choices and their actions. Basically telling themselves that what they are doing is somehow OK (bc my BS doesn't have sex, bc my BS doesn't love me, bc my BS won't ever know - or a ton of other excuses). Now, they have to face themselves in the light of disclosure and as a witness to the trauma they have inflicted upon someone they purportedly "loved". So, they are now saying WHO THE F*CK AM I?? I'm sure that's tough. So, the WS tends to do even MORE to justify, minimize, and basically tell themselves it wasn't THAT bad, which in reality exacerbates the situation.

I highly recommend reading the posts of other WWs who are in R (if you become a paid member on SI, you get access to older posts - and BONUS! - you are supporting the folks that invest their time and $ to keep this site alive). There are many that have shared such intimate details of their lives for which I am eternally grateful (HikingOut and ForeverLabeled come to mind, but there are others whose handles I don't recall offhand). ForeverLabeled has a long thread in wayward called something like ruminating in hindsight. I mention this because I think that seeing the journey of others can both bring hope AND may help you avoid some serious pitfalls that could put you on the express train to DivorceLand.

As for your BH. A BW on SI once said she felt it was as if the AP held her down, while her WH raped her. That is a very apt description IMO. I don't say this to send you into a shame spiral - but bc I think a WW may be able to better relate to that concept and the depth of despair a BS feels after dday.

As to the "making it about me" vs listening to BS (and empathy), personally I am equal opportunity on that front. There are times when all I want is for my WH to understand and hear my pain and rage. Other times, I want to hear from him. Tonight I read another thread that discussed a WS focusing TOO much on the BS - as a way to distance themselves from their own feelings (and, IMO, their own WORK). I am confident that's what my WH has done for a year - so long as he's worrying about me and my pain, he doesn't have to do a damn thing about himself. It didn't work a year ago, and it doesn't work today. I say this bc your WH may want to hear your feelings - and maybe not. Guess what? The only way to know is to ask him.

I recently had a realization about my WH and empathy. I'd spent months completely dumbfounded that I could have been married to him for more than 2 decades and never seen his lack of empathy. In the last few weeks I remembered that 8 years ago I had surgery that went very badly. He was incredibly supportive and helpful in my weeks/months long recovery (despite being balls deep in his PA). So I wondered, what was different now? Yes, that was more physical than emotional pain (and that distinction should not go unheeded). But, I think he truly cannot be empathetic with me now bc this time it's HIS fault and not some surgeon. I say this bc I wonder if other WS could think back to another time when they truly felt empathetic with their BS (maybe the death of a loved one, or being fired, or whatever) - or maybe even someone else (like a child suffering through chicken pox) - and try to relate those feelings to the situation today. Maybe if a WS can find that feeling again - and detach from the self blame and shame for a moment - in that moment they can provide that support to their BS. Maybe it's a silly idea, but maybe not. It certainly seems worth a try (in that I don't see how it could make anything worse).

I am going to share with you what I shared with another poster recently regarding empathy, and I hope it helps:

When someone is hurting, they are not worried about what empathy "looks like", they want to "feel it" - to know that they are understood, to have someone be able to sit with them in their pain, and feel compassion for their suffering.

Daniel Goleman is a psychologist and author whose work focuses on emotional intelligence. Here is an excerpt from an article he wrote about the importance of sincere empathy:

It is possible to pretend that you understand people’s feelings and, more particularly, their concerns. Sales staff often do this to try to establish rapport with customers.

However, as humans we are programmed to detect and dislike insincerity.

Your pretence, it is fair to say, will be detected by those around you, probably through subtle hints in your body language, or perhaps in a response to an unexpected question.

The other person may not even be aware of detecting it, but will feel uncomfortable with the conversation that you have tried to strike up, or with what you are saying, and find that they do not really trust you.

In other words, this ‘false empathy’ will be counter-productive.

Trying to manipulate emotions can backfire on the perpetrator, and may well not be worthwhile. Those who are genuinely empathetic will get a very different response.

A BS will instinctively know if your empathy is genuine and sincere.

So how do you get to that place?

There are a couple articles that I think may help you with developing your ability to truly feel empathy for your BS:

The first one talks about the barriers to empathy and how to start overcoming them.

THE FIVE REASONS WE DON’T GIVE EMPATHY

By Dr. Kelly Flanagan

I think there are at least five fatal barriers to establishing empathy in our intimate relationships:

1. I don’t want to go first.

In any relationship, both members need empathy. But at any given moment, empathy is unidirectional — it can only flow in one direction at a time. Which means someone has to go first. Someone has to be willing to meet the needs of the other, before their own needs are met.

2. I don’t agree with you.

Empathy requires us to place ourselves in another person’s shoes, to allow our hearts to beat to the rhythm of theirs. We often fundamentally disagree with their perspective, and so we are tempted to debate them intellectually, rather than join them emotionally.

3. What if I get it wrong?

When we try to place ourselves squarely inside of someone else’s emotional landscape, it can be a little scary. It’s unfamiliar territory. They are inviting us in, but what if we get it all wrong? Empathy can be terrifying if we have any perfectionism within us.

4. I don’t want to feel that.

On the other hand, you might know exactly what your partner is feeling. It may bring up thoughts and feelings in you that you would prefer to avoid. If we don’t want to feel our own sadness, we won’t want to feel sadness on behalf of the person we love.

5. It’s not my job to fix you.

We confuse empathy with “fixing.” We think we have to do something to take the emotion away, and we don’t want to be put on that hot-seat. Or some of us will have the opposite reaction: I’m going to fix you. But this undermines our ability to provide empathy, as well. Because empathy is not fixing. Empathy is joining.

CLIMBING THE BARRIERS

If we want to give empathy in our relationships, we will have to sacrifice some values we hold dear:

We will have to be willing to lose, because it will feel like losing. It will feel like our partner’s needs are being met before our own. But there is no other way.

We will have to put aside all of our intellectual debates. Empathy is not a matter of deciding who is right and wrong. It is simply a matter of finding an emotional common ground.

We have to be willing to get it wrong, because we will get it wrong. Empathy is messy. There are no three-easy-steps to accurately understanding the person we love. We have to be okay when our partner tells us we’re not getting it. And then we have to try again.

We need to embrace our discomfort, because empathy will take us into some uncomfortable place within ourselves. If we are unwilling to go there, we need to quit talking to our spouse and start talking to a therapist of our own.

And we have to quit trying to fix things. There will be a time for that later. For now, empathy is about connecting within an experience, not making the experience go away.

The second article kind of expands upon the first a bit...

Stop Trying to Fix Your Partner’s Feelings

by Kyle Benson (for the Gottman Institute blog)

Note: I've edited it to take out parts that are not needed or wouldn't make sense for this post

One of our deepest needs as humans is to feel understood, and true understanding is not possible without empathy. As psychologist Carl Rogers put it, “When someone really hears you without passing judgment on you, without trying to take responsibility for you, without trying to mold you, it feels damn good!”

Think back to a time when you were listened to and really felt heard. How did it feel to be seen as you were?

Empathy is the willingness to feel with your partner. To understand their inner world.

This critical skill is key to reaching resolution in conflict conversations. During conflict is also when empathy is most difficult. To empathize with your partner when their hurt feelings are a result of something you said or did without defending yourself requires skill and practice.

Couples that have mastered empathy tell me “it’s like a light switch has been turned on in their relationship” and their cycles of conflict drastically change. This is because partners stop defending their positions and instead seek to understand each other. They become a team against the conflict.

Stop trying to fix your partner

Empathy is easy when our partner is happy. It’s more difficult to empathize when our partner is hurting, angry, or sad. As Marshall Rosenberg says in Nonviolent Communication, “It may be difficult to empathize with those who are closest to us.” Since we care about them, we try to help minimize their feelings because we know that they are difficult, but sympathizing can be damaging despite positive intentions.

Empathy is putting yourself in the shoes of the person you love. Sympathy is feeling compassion, sorrow, or pity without experiencing their feelings with them. Brené Brown’s description of sympathy as trying to paint a silver-lining around pain is a very common response.

“Well, it could be worse…”

“I think you should…”

“This could turn into a positive experience for you if you just…”

The problem with this kind of response is that it invalidates the other person. I know when others have tried to “fix” my feelings, I’ve ended up resenting them because it made me feel foolish for feeling that way in the first place.

Below are four skills to improve your ability and willingness to empathize.

1. Listen without judgment.

Empathy is only possible when you have removed all preconceived ideas and judgments about your partner’s feelings and needs. When you assume responsibility for your partner’s feelings or take messages personally, you’re blaming and judging. Judgment of your partner’s experience is an attempt to protect yourself.

To empathize with your partner at a level that creates healing and brings you closer demands your full focus on your partner’s message. To do this, practice the art of non-defensive listening and focus on being curious about your partner’s feelings.

“Empathy lies in our ability to be [fully] present.” – Marshall Rosenberg

2. Look for feelings.

It’s easy to get swept away in the facts of what happened during the heat of a conflict discussion. This is where couples get stuck. They argue over who is “right,” and yet both views are valid. Being “rational” about the facts inhibits empathy because it invalidates emotions.

This is why Dr. Gottman suggests concentrating on what your partner is feeling. Listen to what they need.

3. Climb into the hole.

When you listen for your partner’s feelings with your whole being, it becomes a lot easier to understand their perspective. I related to the visual Brené Brown paints of a hurt partner being down in a dark hole, because I know when I am feeling sad or upset, I feel like I’m alone in a pit of pain.

What I really crave in these moments is not for someone to throw a rope down, but for someone to climb into the hole with me. To feel what I feel.

Dr. Gottman refers to empathy as a mind meld. To attune to your partner requires the ability to experience their feelings on such a level that that you almost become your partner. Empathy is so deeply connecting that it’s physical.

This is why Brené Brown says empathy is vulnerable. To attune to your partner’s difficult feelings requires you to connect with that feeling within yourself.

If you’re having trouble climbing into the hole with your partner, start by being curious about what they’re feeling. Ask questions to help you understand why they are feeling that way. This will make it easier for you to empathize with their experience.

4. Summarize and validate.

... you’ll get a chance to summarize what you heard. When doing this, express that you respect your partner’s perspectives and feelings as natural and valid, even if they’re different from your own. Instead of saying, “You want me to be at home more during the week because if I’m not, it makes you feel like I don’t value you” you can say, “It makes sense to me that you want me home more nights of the week.” Other empathizing statements include “Of course you feel…” and “How could you not feel…”

Validating your partner’s perspective doesn’t require you to abandon your own. Empathizing shows that you understand why they have those feelings and needs.

Dr. Gottman explains that “validation is such a fundamental component of attunement that summarizing without it is like having sex without love.”

Behind every complaint is a deep personal longing. When you realize this, it becomes a lot easier to make the choice to be empathetic instead of taking your partner’s complaint personally and defending yourself.

Empathy takes practice.

Instead of trying to change or fix the feelings of the person you love, focus on connecting with them. As Brené Brown puts it, “rarely can a response make something better. What makes something better is connection.”

Empathy is an emotional skill that requires you to be able to accurately identify and understand emotions, both in yourself and in others. To do that you're going to want to develop emotional intelligence and emotional competency.

If you Google "emotional intelligence skills", you'll find a lot of great stuff to get you started.

As to emotional competency, here is a mod-approved link to what I have found to be the most thorough and helpful website on the subject:

http://www.emotionalcompetency.com/recognizing.htm

Another important aspect for developing empathy is being able to regulate your own emotions. This is going to require you to develop a great deal of self-awareness, as well as mindfulness. If you are unfamiliar with the concept of mindfulness I recommend checking out the works of Pema Chodron. I have a number of mod-approved links to her YouTube videos in my profile that you may want to check out. I think that you will find her videos (as well as her books) are incredibly helpful for developing more self-awareness as well.

Finally - empathy cannot develop when shame is present. Shame blocks our ability to connect empathically with others. It leads to self-pity and causes us to turn inward and away. Healthy guilt, on the other hand, keeps us striving to improve, and has a positive correlation with the capacity for empathy.

Developing self-compassion is important as well. When you are able to feel compassion for yourself it makes it much easier to feel genuine compassion and empathy for others.

I highly recommend the works of Brene Brown and Kristin Neff to address these things. You will find mod-approved links to some of their videos in my profile, as well as a list of their books.

Nebula,

How do I keep myself from crying when he tells me I how devastated and lonely he’s been when it breaks my heart that he feels that way?

Why are you crying though? Bc you feel awful when he tells you how devastated he is or bc you feel sorry for yourself? If it is the first one, share that. It is enough to say “ I am so sorry I did this, I love you and you matter”. No buts. No I feel this or that.

What is his love language? If it is touch, hold him. If it is word of affirmation, use those. You get the gist. I feel WS get stuck in wanting to fix it all in one fell swoop, but it is the tiny actions over time that make all the difference (IMO). My WH not hiding is a step. Him choosing to sit next to me instead of walking away and stonewalling. Baby steps. You don’t have to get it right 100% all the time.

Showing up, having courage is what heals this. You can cry, but you have to reach to him. Consistently. It is very uncomfortable and it is super scary...hell, I am a BS and it is terrifying to reach to my WS and be hurt again. But if I don’t, guess what the result will be.

Our conversations that I usually feel go well are when he is holding me up, talking to me about how to fix things or suggestions to help me.

Why? Why is it this way? What happens all the other times?

I need and want to respond to each reply on here, but I wanted to share some of my thoughts based on all the replies here, conversations about this with my BH and I, as well as from my counseling sessions. After thinking about all of this for a bit and rereading my original post, I think I have some of the understanding that I was looking for.

Our conversations that I usually feel go well are when he is holding me up, talking to me about how to fix things or suggestions to help me.

This I believe is due to several factors, a large part of that is my shame. I have deep shame because of my behaviors during the affair. As all WS do I have tried to minimize my behaviors, my choices to make it not seem as bad. I foolishly believed that by minimizing I could make these things hurt my BH less, I know that that is absolutely wrong and in fact only served to minimize his pain, thus hurting him that much more. These were choices that I made, terrible choices that have caused the consequences that my BH is now facing. Life shattering consequences, consequences that he will carry with him for the rest of his life, with or without me. I also think that I tried to minimize them to myself, to convince myself that what I did wasn’t that bad. I was trying to protect myself from seeing what an awful thing I had done…I say awful thing that I had done, but it was awful thing after awful thing, and I feel more like I was protecting myself from seeing what an awful person I had become. I need to acknowledge that I honestly see myself as an awful human being for doing these things. In many ways I think that it is true, I am awful. I also recognize that this is flawed thinking. I am not awful, the choices I made were awful, my lack of consistency and effort in doing this work continues to show that I am making awful choices. Believing that I am awful is shame, recognizing that I have made awful choices is guilt. As others here have pointed out, guilt is motivating, shame is paralyzing. Dragging shame out into the light exposes it for what it is and gets it out of the way. If I am an awful person who is broken, that is a much more terrifying thing to comprehend how to fix. If I am instead someone who is a person who has made awful choices, the solution is simple, make different choices.

When we have conversations that I feel go well, yet he feels all he is doing is holding me up, we are usually validating that I am not an awful person, we are focusing on how the choices I made were awful. I need this validation because I harbor shame that I am an awful person. That shame is constantly dragging me down. It makes me needy and prevent me from facing my shame full on and prevents me from actually developing empathy.

When we try to talk about his feelings, the conversation goes the opposite. It always spirals out of control and he feels alone and unheard. Brene Brown says in her book “I thought it was just me”

When we hear stores that mirror our own shame experiences, it helps us know we aren’t alone. Of course, if the story hits to close to home, we can actually find ourselves in the grip of shame. Rather than just listening and responding to someone else’s experience, we become overwhelmed with our own feelings of shame."

I think this ties into what gmc94 is getting at. Of course, his story hits close to home, it is literally the other half of my story in a way. So I end up overwhelmed by my own feelings. If I was dealing with something that had happened at his work or in another area of his life, I think that I would be able to be empathetic to how he was feeling without becoming wrapped up in my shame and thus making it about me.

I am learning that the only way to combat shame is to drag it out into the light, expose it and own it. I recently did this with my BH, telling him about somethings I was carrying deep shame around from my childhood. He was able to hear them and help me realize that they were things that I did not and should not be ashamed about. After that conversation, the shame was gone, now I look at those things as embarrassing and not things I would share with others, but something that my BH and I can laugh at. I also feel that it has removed a wall from within me that has been there for a very long time. It simply gone now. In addition to that my BH also pointed out that this is one of many situations that demonstrate how important honesty is in our relationship. Only because I trust in him to be honest with me could I simply believe that he was telling me the truth, that I could believe I had nothing to be ashamed about. It also shows one more thing I have taken away from him. I can no longer offer this relief to him as he does not trust me in this way, hopefully he will again, but not right now. In my efforts to minimize the things I did during the affair, I have not acknowledged my true feelings about them looking back. In another thread of mine someone pointed out that I needed to be sure that I tell my BH that I am ashamed of my actions. It has been almost 3 years from our Dday and I realized that I have never acknowledged this. I have told him how sorry I am, how awful what I did was, but never told him that I am honestly ashamed of myself. Ashamed of not just the actually cheating, but also the lies and deceit that I engaged in during my affair. The trickle truthing after, all of it. It makes me sick to think that I am capable of so much awfulness. I think that I needed to acknowledge this, and still need to deal more with it, so that I can somehow stop feeling shame over it and turn it into feelings of guilt, so that I can stop being paralyzed by it and be able to get it out from in between my BH and I.

When he tells you something about how he feels, listen to his words. Rather than trying to understand his feelings by associating back them back to your own feelings and experiences, make all of your questions about him. Allow him to expand and explain.

Last but not least, I think what DaddyDom said is 100% accurate. I have literally followed the exact script that he laid out with the exact same outcome. I think because in most things I can say “yeah I have been exactly where you are, I get what you are feeling” but in this I have not ever been in his shoes. I have no idea what it feels like to be where he is. And trying to tell him I can understand, would be like trying to say that to a holocaust or pow survivor. I have absolutely no idea and nothing in my life compares to the level of suffering or pain that they or he has been through. The only way I can express empathy is by asking questions, learning as much about his feelings as possible to even potentially begin to put myself in his shoes and listening to every word.

My only other advice is to try and practice not thinking about your part in things, especially when negative things come up. In other words, if he says, "I'm thinking about divorce", your first instinct will likely be to think about how that would impact you. How will you feel, how will you live, what will you do, and so on... These are all valid feelings, however for the moment, you need to put them aside. Allow the moment to be about him, and him alone.

As onlytime’s post explains I have work to do to get to a place that I can do that, much of that is dealing with my shame. Shame not only from what I have done, but also from my lack of actions. Taking action will help me be able to say I am actually doing something to fix this, to help heal myself, and us. However, even if I am doing all I can to do ‘the work’ it does not change how he feels in the moment. I can be working on fixing many things, but when he is expressing himself in the moment, I can’t try to fix how he feels right then. That only serves to minimize how he feels.

I am sure that some or all of this is obvious to many of you, I guess I am just trying to pull together strands of thought that you all, my BH, and my counselor have all given me. Making it a more coherent idea that I can use to start solving at least one issue on our list. Hopefully by internalizing this, I can shift my perspectives, and hopefully shift my behaviors so that my BH can see and feel it.

If you want to comfort your H,I suggest offering comfort directly. My recos:

Ask what he wants.

Ask if he wants a hug or for you to hold him.

Tell him you want to hug him, or whatever other type of support you want to give him, and ask if he'd like a hug, or whatever other type of support you want to give him.

Use as few and as simple words as you can ... and ask or offer - don't force him to accept.

SABM- I think you are starting to see this, but you need to work on embracing who you were/are when you had the A. By avoiding acknowledging who you were, and maybe still are, you've done yourself a huge disservice.

Only when you fully embrace who you are can you begin to become who you want to be. The facts are not up for debate are they ? Why are you still debating them ?

Embrace them, own them with no qualifying statements. Sit with it. Just that. It is the only way that you will be able to indentify why you are doing that. You are spending your energy on not feeling bad to the point that it is exhausting you. It leaves room for nothing else. Stop that. Look in the mirror and repeat it (if you can). Your current path requires your H to swoop in like a KISA to save you. I think you also understand just how selfish that is. You had an A yet he has to tell you that you are not a bad person ? You need to accept that it is ok not to be perfect. The gifts of imperfection is a great book if you want to explore that further. I think that is Brene Brown too.

BTW you both sound horribly co-dependent and that more than anything is creating this very dysfunctional giver and taker dynamic. I was KISA giver and I resented the hell out of my W for it. I survived, but at great expense. I even had trouble identifying my needs. If you think that after an A there is no way to hurt him more or damage your M even more, but you are wrong. Not only does he resent the hell out of you for requiring him to save you "from yourself," but he has pushed all those feelings from the A down because he is too busy tending to yours. IF you H is reading this. . .man you need IC too. I get the reluctance, but it really does help you become a better man. Really, please consider it.

SABM, You need to create a dichotomy of yourself. One is the person who cheated, cheated, lied, abused and then tried to argue their way out of it. Accept responsibility. Own that.

You can try and defend that all you want, but in the end all it does is show your H you don't believe you did anything (really) wrong. You did just about the worst thing you can do in a relationship. I've lost people close to me. I've had lots of pain in my life, but very few things come close to finding out that your spouse cheated on you. I concur until you've walk in those shoes you will never understand just how painful it is. As much as you can see "his pain," you only see the surface. I'd bet there is a lot more there.

The other person of the dichotomy is the person you are becoming or want to become. What you do today counts towards that new person. Each day you aren't defensive or let your shame run you or require your H to "rescue you" from yourself that is a good day. You do that until it feels normal. It won't at first and requires a lot of mental and emotional energy, but it can happen.

Lastly, you need to take your filter off. No more hiding any thought or feeling. You share even if it hurts one or both of you.

I don't mean this to come across as harsh. Today is day one. What can you start doing today to start the journey ?

Writing out a time lime (it will take more than one draft) sounds like a good start. Get a cheap calendar and start filling in dates. Use any records to confirm those dates. It is ok to be shocked at who you were, but remember you aren't going to be her anymore. That is how you get enough past the shame to begin the journey.

How do I know this ? My W did something similar. It took time. It hurt worse before it got better and we've both cried enough tears for 5 lifetimes. Today we are who we are. We remember the past, but see more as a vantage point at just how far we have come. We still talk about the A seven years later. Just as we would talk about a happier memory. A big thing to remember it is who she was and not who she is today. Heck, I am not the same guy either.

I sincerely hope you read this as more a guideline than a recipe. The main point is you embrace who you were (not to the point of being proud of it, but in that direction) and today stop being that person in some small way. I guess a better term is accept who you were. Don't explain, justify or minimize. Sit with it. Share that with your H. Ask him not to rescue, but just listen. You can validate someone's feeling with agreeing with them.acknowledge that they are being heard.

I am rooting for you and I am a huge believer in happy endings despite no two of those looking the same.

I need to acknowledge that I honestly see myself as an awful human being for doing these things. In many ways I think that it is true, I am awful. I also recognize that this is flawed thinking. I am not awful, the choices I made were awful, my lack of consistency and effort in doing this work continues to show that I am making awful choices. Believing that I am awful is shame, recognizing that I have made awful choices is guilt. As others here have pointed out, guilt is motivating, shame is paralyzing. Dragging shame out into the light exposes it for what it is and gets it out of the way. If I am an awful person who is broken, that is a much more terrifying thing to comprehend how to fix. If I am instead someone who is a person who has made awful choices, the solution is simple, make different choices.

I disagree about shame. I think it is necessary and a good thing. I think it is very healthy and a needed step in healing and changing. I do think some people stay stuck in it because they see it as a bad thing. They don't see shame for what it is. It is an indicator that you are doing something wrong. You are still doing something wrong, so you are still feeling shame. Guilt to me is if you did it, you are guilty. We should be ashamed of ourselves when we do hurtful things. That shame should be linked with a thought to never do that again. We should feel disgusted with ourselves. Like a child learns to never touch a hot pan after they feel the pain of heat. It shouldn't leave you stuck on a fear of never going near fire. It should make you more responsible and aware. Cautious. Shame should be the same. It should be linked to a feeling and event that is uploaded into your brain and when faced with it again...leaves warning signs to back off. Not to stay stuck trying to argue your way out of a truth.

I need to acknowledge that I honestly see myself as an awful human being for doing these things. In many ways I think that it is true, I am awful.

I am. Maybe. If you aren't doing anything to change which you admit you aren't. It could be I was. I don't think your thinking is faulty. IMO and the only way I could move forward was accepting that bad actions repeatedly make for a bad person. Not just flawed, but bad. We become bad because we were flawed and chose to not fix it and instead hurt to alleviate it. We are all simply bad people as cheaters. Period. Does it doom us for the rest of our lives? No! So why deny what we were. That is the past. It is who we chose to become.

Thing is, some people stay fixated on who they were and believe it will always define them. That refuse to own it and wear it as a battle scar. They choose to stay stuck and be the scar. It will of course if you don't choose to change it. The only way you can change is by accepting it. Owning that you were that person. Then changing it. You are stuck because you are conflicting yourself. You are trying to believe two different things. The path you really want isn't leading you anywhere. That I am just faulty and made bad choices. Where has that gotten you? No where. So, try the other path. Followed with some real work.

You have to be willing to feel uncomfortable and to feel bad. It is just a fact and part of life. So, learn how to cope with it in a healthy way. I choose to cook. To talk. To share. IMO it is the only path. It isn't fair to your husband that he should have to validate you. That the only fruitful conversations are ones where YOU get to feel good about yourself. You are being selfish again. You are relying on an outside source to make you feel good. How about feeling good because you accomplished something meaningful. Like facing your fears and shame. Without your husband making you feel like you are worth it. You know you are worth it. Everyone is worth it. So, stop focusing on worth and start focusing on selflessness. Start focusing on actions that you can take pride in. Little things to start.