SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

First, thank you to everyone for your input in my first thread. It is really helpful to hear different points of view on this subject. I am going to get more personal now, which is hard for me. But here goes.

I used to be ok with porn. I really did.

I used to be able to see that clear line in the sand between porn and infidelity.

But then:

- I had no idea of the extent or nature of WH’s porn use until happening upon it while in detective mode, seeking evidence of his 4th A.

(Yes, WH is a SERIAL CHEATER. And I know what that is, please don’t tell me to Google it. He has been working hard in R, but porn has become a sticking point. And I am afraid that it will become a breaking point.)

- Summer of 2017, he went away for a work conference with soon-to-be-AP4 (both new hires). The heavy flirting started. In his hotel room after spending the evening with her, he opened a pay account for tipping/messaging live-cam performers.

- He never told me or asked me about the livecam tipping/messaging account. He went out of his way to keep it secret (installed a separate private browser for it).

- The user handle he created for this site was itself a message to performers (along the lines “I ___ to ___ you”). He used an intimate phrase that he has said to me hundreds of times. In my mind, if was “ours.”

- Discovering this site, his handle, the specific performers he was “following,” and the frequency with which he was doing this at a time when our M was in active crisis and he knew how much fear and pain I was in…It was just as traumatic for me as any other A-related discovery.

- When I discovered the site, he was in full TT-mode, which lasted months. I was operating from incomplete information, and I knew it.

- Early 2018, I asked him to stop using porn, in the context of trying to save our M. I was going crazy with fear and anxiety. He agreed.

- After agreeing to stop using porn, he went back to it. This happened in multiple cycles (3 or 4 times of him saying he would stop, and then “slipping up”). He would not confess to his slip-ups voluntarily, but a couple times I found evidence and he admitted when confronted and a couple other times he was honest when asked. I don’t really know if he ever lied when asked at that time, but he did come clean on a few occasions. The broken promises and secrecy, in the context of this time in our M, was really damaging.

- In the spring of 2018, I finally got all the truth about all of the A’s. I did not poly him. But my internal lie detector told me, after months of sounding alarms, that this was everything. Who ever really knows for sure? Bottom line is: one long-term EA, 3 short-term PA’s, no intercourse, lots of sexting.

- Because of everything, porn became strongly associated (for me) with him wanting to seek sexual pleasure outside the M. He ardently denies any connection whatsoever. But, other than the A’s, porn has been the only other thing WH has proven willing to lie, hide, and break promises to me for. What am I supposed to make of that??

- I have raised the question of whether the A’s might be, at minimum, linked to issues with sexual compulsion, if not addiction. There are no extreme red flags (inappropriate times/places, excessive quantities of time, rejecting sex with me), but I feel that the multiple A’s combined his recurrent inability to refrain (even as a temporary measure for the sake of R) after making promises, and knowing the delicate state of the M as a result of his betrayals, suggests a “problem.”

- He has not yet discussed this issue/question much with his IC, and personally feels he is just a normal guy (where porn is concerned) and firmly believes he doesn’t have a problem. When I raised the question in MC, our therapist said she wasn’t at all sure that sex/porn addiction was not in fact a problem for WH. He seemed to shrug this off.

- There have continued to be periodic “slip-ups,” maybe once every month or two (and sometimes a couple/few times per slip). He is adamant that he has not returned to the live-cam site and says he understands that it is now “forbidden” (his word). He admits that he still thinks about it and wishes he could go there. He said he did not think the urge to do so would ever go away.

- Late last week, I discovered evidence that he was using an old laptop. I couldn’t get firm evidence, except that he viewed a file folder he created long ago with hundreds of pics in it. Knowing this, I asked him how he was doing with refraining from porn, giving him the chance to be honest. I have never blown up or shamed him in the past. Well, on this occasion, he lied to me, point blank.

- I confronted him about the lie in MC. I was calm. He was sorry. MC asked him if he was trying to sabotage the M, and he said “no.” He said he only looked at pictures and didn’t go online. When pressed by the MC, he admitted to feeling the no-porn boundary was unfair. But that he was trying to honor it because he didn’t want to end his M over porn.

- I don’t want to end my M over porn either. But to me, it just feel like “just porn” any more. At the same time, I don’t want to impose limits that would set any guy up for failure? I’m trying to reality-check myself here.

- We have repeated this cycle enough times that it is occurring to me that this is a boundary he is going to continue chafing against.

- He wants to adjust the boundary, to allow for pictures at least. I don’t have a huge problem with pictures per se, but I don’t think he will be able to honor a new boundary any better than he honored the old one. It still won’t feel like “enough,” when he’s having the continuing urge to go to a livecam site. Eventually, he’ll cross the next line, and the next. He is oh-so-confident that he would have NO problem if he could just look at some pictures “whenever” (this will be every day, guaranteed). I can see him refusing to even think seriously about whether moving this boundary would do anything more than move his urge to trangress. That is the stuff that really makes me nervous. I feel he is not being honest with himself.

Ok, so this was a LOT. And I am so incredibly grateful to anyone who took the time to read it all. And even more incredibly grateful to any support, feedback, or advice you can give.

Well, I'm sort of in this same club with you. I really don't have an issue with porn either or never did, but now I see the escalation to infidelity that it had in my relationship. So now it's become a problem. I have asked my WH how often he watches porn and I have asked him to monitor himself. Well, how's that going to work? I think boundaries are important for us as healing spouses, but when boundaries are broken I think it is important for us to state clear consequences. He really should be working with his IC on all of this and should be accountable to you as far as what work is being done.

Is he watching porn compulsively? How often? Is he masturbating compulsively? The problem with the pictures is that it can (in my opinion) escalate to the next level. At least it did in my WH because he sought non-emotional types of acting out. He moved from porn, to strip clubs, to PA's with strippers. He was acting out his porn fantasies, clearly. He denies he is an SA, but my IC is not so sure, and neither am I.

These are tough issues and I am struggling myself. We haven't been to MC for a while. I know my WH is once again watching porn and that bothers me ONLY because I know it can escalate. I can't prove it, but I have some very strong clues. These are things that really need to be discussed with your MC and your IC. I do think that coming up with clear consequences is key though, and only you can decide what those might be. Sorry you are going through this, and it really sucks to feel like you are the parent in a relationship that should be a true partnership, but that's where we are.

This is CLEARLY a problem. I'm going to give you my point of view, others will be very different and almost certainly STRONGLY disagree with what I'm going to say.

I see a porn (or sex) addiction kind of the same way I see an addiction to food. It's not like an addiction to booze or drugs, there the "only right answer" is "stop, never do it again, ever, for any reason". Sex is different, the goal of recovery from sexual addiction is to get a healthy relationship with sex, not to abstain from it. Now, for the part that people will certainly disagree with, I see porn the same way. Yes, there are men who don't/never looked. But they are very rare, the draw is too tempting to a lot of men (myself included) it's hijacking a biological mechanism (drive for mating/sex) and redirecting it, no wonder it's so powerful! I really feel that "no porn, ever" is a standard and a line that lots of men simply will not be able to hold onto long term. Some will, no doubt about it, and some do, but I don't think that most do/will, no matter how strong their motivation, because it's just too ubiquitous. No porn, then I suddenly find myself watching re-runs of Baywatch.. And not for the great plots.

So, what to do? I think you treat it like an eating disorder and strive not for total "no porn" but a healthy relationship with sex. And a healthy relationship with sex, for many, does include porn and masturbation, both for men and for women. It's the relationship with porn that needs to be reframed though, and, some of the things he's doing go beyond "looking at moving pictures". I've never "interacted" with anyone in my many hours of viewing and enjoying porn. The analogy I'd draw, for a bulimic, one cupcake is OK, the entire dozen is not! But only you can define this line and decide what's OK for you. And frankly, he may just have done too much damage, I get the sense that you'd be OK with porn if it didn't lead to "more" and that's always going to be a fear and a slippery slope with your H (kind of like how my W's A put a hard line "No more male friends" in that I never felt necessary before; the rules simply change after an A and that's OK, and this might be a dealbreaker for you, also OK).

WorstClubEver,

I don't really have first hand experience with porn as it wasn't and hasn't been an issue in our marriage or my association with the A.

I certainly can understand why this is a trigger for you. It would be for me as well.

I don’t want to impose limits that would set any guy up for failure?

As I read your post what came through more than the porn is that your WH continues to disregard you and your wishes. You aren't asking him not to breathe oxygen. You are asking him not to violate your trust by not seeking fulfillment elsewhere. After any infidelity I believe is is a very sound and reasonable request.

MC asked him if he was trying to sabotage the M

^^^This is very insightful. Is your WH "wanting" to get caught so if this ends it is YOUR decision not his?

(((gently)) My only thought for you is how long do you want to play detective? Checking electronics for porn or sites, etc? Either he is going to be a safe partner or he is not. You catching him on his "slip ups" does nothing but convey there are no consequences for breaking your trust.

You can't fix this marriage on your own. If he truly picks porn over you do you really want to be with him?

I am sorry you are at these crossroads. Be kind to you. Stand up for you.

(((good luck)))

Is he watching porn compulsively? How often? Is he masturbating compulsively?

I am not sure what constitutes "compulsive." He is viewing porn very infrequently, because of (obviously fairly weak) boundaries I've created. That doesn't mean he doesn't have ongoing compulsions to view porn. I think maybe he does. But am unsure.

He most certainly masturbates daily or almost daily, regardless of frequency of sex in the M. He does it in the shower mostly now, to the extent that he has refrained from involving porn. Again, not sure if it's "compulsive."

I really feel that "no porn, ever" is a standard and a line that lots of men simply will not be able to hold onto long term. Some will, no doubt about it, and some do, but I don't think that most do/will, no matter how strong their motivation, because it's just too ubiquitous.

I hear this.

And it is why I haven't considered the broken promises on this score to be deal-breakers.

No porn, then I suddenly find myself watching re-runs of Baywatch.. And not for the great plots.

I get the sense that you'd be OK with porn if it didn't lead to "more" and that's always going to be a fear and a slippery slope with your H (kind of like how my W's A put a hard line "No more male friends" in that I never felt necessary before; the rules simply change after an A

This EXACTLY.

It's the fear of a slippery slope, and one he doesn't seem willing to acknowledge or look at or look for in himself, which rings of denial to me (versus a thoughtful, reflective judgment).

Also, there's something exceptionally hurtful about THIS seeming to be the hill he's willing to let his M die on. Like, I get that the urge is very strong. But with your M and the gift of R literally on the line, is it really not possible? SMH.

and this might be a dealbreaker for you, also OK).

It would feel so crazy for this to be thing that breaks us. But I know a lot of this rests on what I can and can't live with in this new M.

Part of me is like: I ate a whole shit sandwich for you. Four of them, actually. And I'm asking you to eat this one tiny turd-crust so I don't have to. And it's "not fair"??? And that's when it feels like a deal-breaker.

If he truly picks porn over you do you really want to be with him?

Oof.

That 2'4" was needed, thank you.

This SUCKS.

BS married to a porn addict here

He is currently being treated by a therapist who specializes in sexual addiction.

I first learned of his use and participation in the interactive chat rooms in 2014 , but it had been going on for years longer than that.

I was devastated when I found out , but believed him when he told me he would stop...well he did for a short time and basically went back and forth multiple times for the next 3.5 years until I caught him again.

He set up multiple email addresses and spent thousands of dollars.

If the porn action wasn't enough , he ended up having a LTA , mostly long distance with one of the * performers *

So at the end of the day, his porn use and abuse escalated to the point of nearly destroying our marriage.

There is a thread here on SI that is specifically for wives of sex addicts...good information and many seasoned members

Take a look

For obvious reasons, I am NOT supportive of the porn industry in any way. One of the things that bothers me the most is that we have 4 daughters...It makes me sick to think of the women are the same ages, and younger than our daughters

((((WCE))))

If you do break up with him, it won't be over 'just porn'. What about all the lying??

And even if it is over 'just porn', that's perfectly ok. He's crossing boundaries left and right. That in and of itself is a dealbreaker imho.

I'm so sorry he's doing this to you, you really don't deserve this. Sending you strength.

((((WCE))))

eta: oh yeah, and don't be so sure that there was no fucking with his PAs. That sounds like bullshit to me. Just sayin'.....

[This message edited by ZenMumWalking at 5:02 PM, February 26th (Tuesday)]

Ok, I could go into a LOT of detail here about porn/masturbation addiction, but I will save you the details because you seem to be pretty much aware of how you feel about the subject.

I will say this:

I too, did not used to have a problem with porn.

I too, did not want porn to be “the thing that broke us.” (Can’t even count how many times I said those exact words to him).

I too had to face the hard question of “If he truly picks masturbation over me, do I really want to be with him?”

The hard part is, I knew that I deserved to be valued more than porn/masturbation. His actions showed me that he valued the porn/masturbation/mutilating my underwear more. So staying while he continued to disrespect me and my boundaries actually lowered my own self worth, because I knew I shouldn’t be treated that way, but I tolerated it anyway, and ended up hating myself for it.

I agree with rideitout and others that expecting full blown porn celibacy is hard - but there are people who do it! SA is there for a reason, and people can “get sober.” However there are other ways to set the boundary - I.e. you can watch it, but only if you tell me about it, or setting certain categories of porn that you are comfortable with but not others (like no cam girls, obviously). However then it becomes about how willing you are to monitor and make sure that these guidelines are being followed.

Regardless, I agree with 1Faith:

As I read your post what came through more than the porn is that your WH continues to disregard you and your wishes. You aren't asking him not to breathe oxygen. You are asking him not to violate your trust by not seeking fulfillment elsewhere. After any infidelity I believe is is a very sound and reasonable request.

Asking your husband not to violate your trust is a perfectly reasonable request, even if he had never had an A to begin with!

My opinion is this: if you were to D, choosing to view porn/masturbation as “the thing that broke you,” because it’s “the thing that ended your marriage” isn’t accurate. Just like the OW did not force your spouse into an A, your H is an adult, and he made choices. He continues to make choices every day, and it seems to be that they are choices that negatively affect your marriage.

Only you or your husband can end the marriage. Regardless of D or R, porn/masturbation broke your marriage, it did not end it. It then becomes your choice of whether you want to work to fix it, or decide it is too broken to repair.

If you decide that your husband’s inability to respect your boundaries around porn/masturbation is just too much, and you choose D, then ending your marriage would not be a thing that happened TO you.

It would be a choice that YOU made because you valued yourself enough to stop tolerating the disrespect.

ETA: Didn’t mean to insinuate that your only option is D, or that if you choose to R you don’t value yourself. He could very well do the work and change, I’m not in your marriage, only you know that. Just meant that if he continues to show you disrespect then R might not be the right thing for you.

[This message edited by HeHadADoubleLife at 5:19 PM, February 26th (Tuesday)]

Part of me is like: I ate a whole shit sandwich for you. Four of them, actually. And I'm asking you to eat this one tiny turd-crust so I don't have to. And it's "not fair"??? And that's when it feels like a deal-breaker.

Trust me, you're heard. I think the requirements for R that I set out are laughably easy to hit, and, at least in the beginning, it was like I was asking her to run 2 back to back marathons with Olympic times each run. Don't lie to me, no contact, and treat me as good as you did the OM. Is that really so hard? Still took close to a year to get there.

There's a reason we say WS's often have their heads up their asses. Because their heads, are in fact, UP THEIR ASSES.

My WH has switched from actual woman to screw to porn.

The effect is still the same.

Taking time and energy away from me and our marriage.

Not acceptable.

So I'm in the same boat. Show me that I'm more important than porn or there's the door.

I agree with rideitout and others that expecting full blown porn celibacy is hard - but there are people who do it!

I totally agree wiht HeHadADoubleLife excellent post except for that one line. Full blown porn celibacy isn’t hard. It’s simply something you decide and then you follow it through. It’s a bit like stupid neighbors… Nobody would claim it’s hard not going after them with a shot-gun.

Think back 50 years ago when porn was limited to a few magazines that you had to actively go search for. OK – so you might find Playboy at respectable bookstores, but Fuzzy Beaver in gloss-print was limited to shady XXX stores in the wrong part of town. Or maybe you set up your 8mm and ran a couple of well-used, grainy reels smuggled from Scandinavia.

Think back 30 years ago. VHS and you could go buy videos or (at first) ask for the blue-folder at the first rentals… Later, the separated area where you would dread having your preacher’s wife seeing you enter where she was renting Bambi for Sunday school…

Now porn is next to unavoidable. It’s easy to get from the privacy of your screen. Name any fetish, any look, any combination of anything… But you still have to get it…

IMHO that’s the big change. Not the NEED for porn but rather the availability of porn. It’s no more a necessity for a healthy life now than it was all those years ago. It’s only more available.

We could compare it to cigarettes, only the development has been in the reverse direction. 50 years ago, people offered cigarettes as a courtesy to visitors. You could smoke anywhere, in waiting-rooms, restaurants, flights, hospitals, home, bed… You could buy a pack at every corner and everyone had a light. Now – with more restrictions, better knowledge and less access – smoking is dropping.

I used to use porn. I decided to quit some years ago for several reasons. For one the type of porn available “back in the days” was innocent compared to what’s offered today. Even in the glorious 80’s there was a relatively limited number of actors in porn – you would see the same 20-30 women and 10 men in some combination in most of the movies. The actions were closer to normal.

These days it’s too sick. It’s young wannabe stars that come and go. The industry uses people like they are totally disposable. One woman and ten men. Sixteen women and one man. Penetration in every and any orifice. Pain and humiliation and acts that even a trained gymnast would find hard to replicate. I venture that a normal couple that tried to emulate a typical porn sex-scene would both come out with strains and pains.

One day when looking at porn I had this thought: Would I want my daughter to be in one of these scenes? If I was OK with watching someone else being humiliated (and please, don’t go on about the happy-hooker syndrome…) and that someone being someone’s daughter, sister, mother or wife, then why wasn’t I OK with the thought of my daughter paying for college doing porn? I do not want to be a hypocrite, so this was a major reason for me deciding to not use porn.

Another major factor were my sons. I hope they grow up to RESPECT their spouses. I hope the pattern my wife and I show each other rubs off on them. My kids don’t have a clue about what my wife and I do between the sheets, but I HOPE all my actions our daily interactions indicate love and respect. I hope that in turn leads them to show their partners comparable behavior. That behavior is not done by tying them down, cramming tools up the @ss, spitting in their face and then blowing their load all over their bodies. Actions that seem to border on the norm in today’s porn-world.

So no – there is no natural need for porn. Not of the variety offered today. Claiming that porn celibacy is hard is – to me – like saying that not drowning kittens is hard.

Well said Bigger.

Thank you Bigger!!!

Great post Bigger.

These are some of the many many reasons I find porn abhorant.

There is a thread here on SI that is specifically for wives of sex addicts...good information and many seasoned members

Take a look

I actually have looked around in there a bit, with the suspicions I've had.

Unfortunately, most instances there seem a lot more extreme/ cut and dry than mine. I felt a bit out of place there, if that makes any sense.

Agreed with Bigger. It turned out that porn was a gateway drug for my WH. Fifteen years ago it was the interactive online stuff, cybersex and EA's. Ten years later, he went live on Craigslist with multiple partners and varying degrees of emotional attachment. His preference was "amateur porn", and I honestly believe that he got a fantasy into his head about acting it out. To this day, I don't think he would have ever cheated if it weren't for the porn habit he'd secretly developed.

I think sometimes WS's look at our boundaries as imposed rules. Your WH is apparently looking for you to relax a "rule". If so, what he's not seeing is that your personal boundary is that you don't want to be married to a man who needs to look at porn. This is no different than not wanting to be married to an active alcoholic. People don't need porn. It's not food, air, or shelter from the elements. It's not a necessary requirement for life, and clearly it's a detriment to your domestic tranquility. So too is allowing the confusion to remain between you about what the word "boundary" means. You don't want to be treated like an authority figure as if you were his mom or his jailer. Boundaries are about what you will tolerate in your life, not about imposing your will on anyone.

It's up to you to decide whether this is truly a boundary or not. I have no problem with anyone saying they won't accept a partner who's into porn. You have an absolute right to decide what kind of people you'll allow into your life.

Bigger 👏👏👏👏

ZenMum - Thanks for the hugs and support, and the reminder that this is about secrecy and lies as much as it as about porn.

Also, I love your handle.

As to this:

oh yeah, and don't be so sure that there was no fucking with his PAs. That sounds like bullshit to me. Just sayin'.....

It sounds like bullshit to me too. I heard the bullshit sound of it even as I typed it.

Thing is, I think it's actually true?

One saving thing that I have discovered throughout this nightmarish process is that my H is not a very good liar. In fact, he's awful at it. I suffered through months and months of TT, with a terrible liar.

At first, my gut was the one to alert me to the lies. As I was trying to get a handle on things, I did some research on spotting lies, and learned some initial tips and tricks. From there, I started crafting well-designed interrogations, and making a conscious study of H. I learned that he has a number of pretty obvious "tells" when he is lying, and one thing that he only does when he's telling the truth.

Nevertheless, when it seemed we had gotten to the bottom of things (tell-wise), it seemed logically ridiculous to me that he was sticking to the story that didn't have sex. I mean, he had opportunity galore. It makes no sense. And I pushed him hard and, not trying to brag but, skillfully.

In one such session, he broke down and said part of him wished he had had sex with them because he would rather confess and have me believe him than deny and have me continue to believe he was lying. His reasoning for doing all the "other things" and not sex was: he believed that sex with another woman would mean our M was over, and he "didn't feel ready to end it." This is actually completely consistent with my knowledge of the very weird way WH's brain works. It would also be the sort of very persuasive lying that I have never, ever seen my H capable of.

Regardless, my brain and gut have both seemed satisfied to accept this. Which I can't say for a lot of lesser lies he told me.

Could my brain and gut be wrong? Sure. I would never bet the house that I have the full truth. But the relentless wondering whether or not there's more to the story that haunted me for months and months...went away pretty suddenly with the last truth-dump. And that's enough for me to let it go and get on with my life, and content myself to deal with the damage I know about. It's plenty.