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RIO

I agree they look the same, and you may never know for sure.

But that's why I am suggesting that if believing option 1 makes you miserable, and believing option 2 makes you less miserable, and the two options are both plausible, then you might as well believe option 2.

Choosing to believe the worst of the two suggests something else is going on.

It's a transactional thing.

When WW met you, she was younger. Hotter. No kids. Sexually, she had a lot more market value than today.

To get the same amount of attention today, she has to offer up more. She's older, less hot, encumbered with kids. There's a risk factor with the A as well, she has to offer up better than the AP might get with single women.

The sexual market place exists. It doesn't get any better. It exists when young or old. I did not get married young. I knew, had I gone the single mom route, I could have landed a hotter woman easily than going for the unencumbered ones. That's just the way things are.

Now BH does not get the best because she locked you in when she was young. You fell in love, still have the wife goggles on. You are giving her credit for all of the years.

Of course, post A, you may rug sweep and try to put the wife goggles back on. It may work, may not. They might fall off for you, or she may treat you worse knowing what she can get away with now.

If you don't put the wife goggles back on, you are heading towards D unless the WW can stop it. So the WW may offer up more due to her diminished value. Or she may not realize the wife goggles are off for a while, you may have to tell her that.

So she might offer up more. But you're conscious of the meat market now. All older men typically report that the full menu is pretty easily obtained with the women they can date once divorced. This doesn't mean they're necessarily happy with the whole package, but it is what it is.

So we get the reports that the wife is offering up the full menu now, but the love is gone from BH. Because the goggles are off now. She's just what they could get with any other woman her age.

I don't think this is just a male POV and maybe I'm wired differently, but most of this applies to my situation and I'm the woman. So I get a little triggered when I see this assigned just to a male POV, that all I'd want is the "aren't you sexy, beautiful" etc. and the male wants the sexual ego stroked.

I know that my WH did things with his A partners, yes plural, that he never mentioned, showed any interest in, or asked to do with me. I know because I have talked at length to one of them. I've said before that sex is not a great connector for me, yet I do enjoy sex and creative sex even more. So the effort he put in doing those acts that he never even mentioned interest in? I feel very non-special, and it is still the thing that stings most, almost the deal breaker here for me except he is being a better H in every other area than he ever was before.

Now as a BW I am (also) left with the dilemma that many of you are left with. Insist that we do that/those act(s), so that he doesn't have something special with the OW (plural) but that will serve to remind me that he has done that with OW (plural) which could hurt me worse, or never get to enjoy that with anyone at all? Which really pisses me off bad! This is a constant divider/distractor from any closeness that I could feel with my WH. It has left me feeling like we are friends. I don't know if I will get past it, and I don't know if either of these options will fix it, or make it worse. Honestly, I think he feels the same thing, although we haven't really discussed it. I sense that he knows.

The argument has been made to me that he felt those acts "dirty" and wouldn't want to "degrade" me, his wife, that he so cherishes... with them? He told me he didn't want to "bother" me...WHAT? So he chose to lie and betray me. I certainly don't feel special in this relationship anymore, I am second kibbles. But I don't know how/if I can ever get to feel first place again, at least not sexually. So this so called male P O V...maybe not always so male? I dunno.

Now as a BW I am (also) left with the dilemma that many of you are left with. Insist that we do that/those act(s), so that he doesn't have something special with the OW (plural) but that will serve to remind me that he has done that with OW (plural) which could hurt me worse, or never get to enjoy that with anyone at all? Which really pisses me off bad! This is a constant divider/distractor from any closeness that I could feel with my WH. It has left me feeling like we are friends. I don't know if I will get past it, and I don't know if either of these options will fix it, or make it worse. Honestly, I think he feels the same thing, although we haven't really discussed it. I sense that he knows.

All I can say. You're heard. It's exactly how I feel/felt about it. No way they are going to have their "secret special sexy time" but, at the same time, I'm just going through the motions she already went through with the AP. The way I looked at it, what's the lesser of the 2 (AWFUL) evils? Knowing she had something special with the OM? Or doing something with her that was a "recreation" of what she did with the OM? The first was just pain, the second was pain (less) but involved sex and orgasms, so, that wins by proxy. But make no mistake, both choices are awful, and both choices are ones nobody should ever have to make. Choice A, the last person my wife did XYZ with was the AP, and will be forever. Choice B, my wife did XYZ with me to recreate what she did with the OM. <ugh>

And yes, I feel exactly the same way. "We're friends", good friends in fact, just without the "sexual spark" that she had with the OM.

But that's why I am suggesting that if believing option 1 makes you miserable, and believing option 2 makes you less miserable, and the two options are both plausible, then you might as well believe option 2.

I'd normally agree with this, but the "cost" of being wrong is so high that it requires more than "just believe it because it's easier" for me. It would be easier to believe that all the sex was protected too, right? Except that if you're wrong, really bad things happen. Same thing here, much easier to believe she really "wants me more" than the AP. But if I'm wrong, I'm married to a woman who would much rather be with someone else (at least sexually) and that, to me, is unacceptable, I'd rather be alone.

Samil, I hear you and I have noted many BW threads expressing similar sentiment. I did direct my comments specifically to the way many men feel, mainly because I myself am male and understand this POV.

A female twist to Sex and the A and maybe this is a new thread, if so please let me know.

WH justified his A because he felt inadequate due to a physical issue I have – he wasn’t The Man. Not being a prude, but I compensated for it in other ways. We dealt with it, but it greatly bothered him so he had to “trust a friend” to ensure that the problem was really me, not him. Through the A, he learned a new style/technique/touch and other things that I know – A Sex.

Now, not only do I know things done with the COW, I FEEL and EXPERIENCE them whenever we have sex – he changed his touch and now this is his new style. On-going A Sex.

If I follow this

"A sets the bar", this is the sex that you'll have if you really want someone (or want to make them happy). The acts, frequency, enthusiasm, etc; he bar is set by the A. And, the same exists for all the love languages,

It’s a constant trigger and hard to feel enthusiastic, let alone want sex – it is a vicious cycle!

RIO stated:

The way I looked at it, what's the lesser of the 2 (AWFUL) evils? Knowing she had something special with the OM? Or doing something with her that was a "recreation" of what she did with the OM? The first was just pain, the second was pain (less) but involved sex and orgasms, so, that wins by proxy. But make no mistake, both choices are awful, and both choices are ones nobody should ever have to make. Choice A, the last person my wife did XYZ with was the AP, and will be forever. Choice B, my wife did XYZ with me to recreate what she did with the OM. <ugh>

Is this both Plan A and Plan B at the same time?

This is a great post Butforthegrace.

To me, as a WW, this thread is not really about bodily/sexual autonomy. I think that goes without saying for any of the males I have ever seen post here (except one - there was one about a year ago that I felt there was abuse and no autonomy). What I hear from them is that they need to know that they are valued, loved, respected, and desired.

This is the exact thing I have in my head through the entirety of these posts, pulled from BFTG's post:

She gave the AP this because she valued what he gave in return

THAT is so much the crux of what is being expressed here. Why would I as a WW value the crap the AP gave me enough to pull out all the stops (okay, in my case I would say I did not, but I do think I did present myself as wild and willing) - over what my H has given me? The message is universal - it doesn't matter if you are a BW or a BH.

I agree with Rideitout that often it sounds like some of us say to these guys "just be happy you are getting it", "you don't have a dead bedroom", etc. It minimizes what they are trying to say.

The bottom line is whatever sex was given in the affair was a demonstrated act of showing the AP value. Even if the reason I seemed wild and willing was only to impress him rather than actually feeling that way. (I did feel that way though) My sexual autonomy was in place during the affair. What I did I did because I wanted to. If I did it to impress him, or did it for transactions, what difference does it mean why I wanted to do that? It comes down to value. I felt at the time I was getting value, and in this way I gave value in return. But, I did so because I wanted to.

How can it ever be possible that in R, if you love and value your husband, that you would not in fact turn to him and show him that same enthusiasm to be with him? You knew what the AP wanted to see? I still don't know if this would have occurred to me without reading here. And, in my case, H has always gotten better...but I did hear enough to step up my game.

I think the only thing I can think of that might be an argument is there often does need to be at least a perceived connection there for a woman. She may have misread that connection with her AP, and for some time after DDAY oh how shaky everything is. There is depression, and emotions, etc. I can see in the early days there might be some fake it until you make it going on because I know I felt like such a turd and so embarrassed, why the heck would my husband even want to be with me? I feared sometimes that by coming on to strong it would reinforce to him that I was some "slut in heat" and I just wanted to use him too. These were concerns that were not real by any means by conversations we had later but at them time it is hard to swim around in shame while you are supposed to feel attracted and sexy for someone. I don't know if I could have mustered feeling sexy for ANYONE at that exact point in time. So, while the message is that you do need to help your h heal, I will say those early days are really not sexy for anyone. I think it's worth saying that because newbies out of the gate - I think things are shaky on about all angles there in the beginning.

I honestly think that H and I have a better sexual connection now not because I am trying to help him to heal, though I was cognizant of that for a time. I am still cognizant that I have to initiate a lot more than pre A days. But, the real reason that it's gotten so good and so frequent? Because our connection is strong. The communication is strong. The sex isn't just me pulling out the stops and praying for R - it's because we've both done real work. And, we've both recommitted to the marriage, and create a picture together of what we want that to look like.

I say all this because let's not get so focused on the trees that we can't see the forest.

To me, as a WW, this thread is not really about bodily/sexual autonomy.

I didn't post that this thread was, I just noticed some posts that made me want to comment on those aspects, as it was touched upon. Also, I didn't read all the posts, and skimmed others, and fully read others, so I know I wasn't exactly on point with everyone else and their discussion. However, I feel I can add my opinion when and where I chose and what I chose to comment on.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 10:49 AM, March 21st (Thursday)]

SMS - My post was actually in response to BFTG's post.

I don't think I said anything that went against what you said or your concept. I had to go back and read what you wrote to even know, I guess we used the same words. In fact, if you read the rest of my post, I talked about how in the early days it just might not be there and it may have nothing to do with AP or BH.

I was trying to tie the concept together that sex is about connection. And, while the WW may not seem to be doing that immediately after DDAY there are a lot of things that make us standoffish about it because there is so much shame wallowing, even if it's about being caught. And, we can then do it for some period of time to be intentional, but what will work the best and be the longest standing result will be about the healing that happens on both sides and the connection you work to restore.

I agree, we all have the right to have an opinion and to comment where we choose. That includes me as well.

Wow.. Bravo Hikingout, bravo. I've got nada to add and.. Well, we all know how rare that is! Oh, actually, I did find something, everyone relax, I'm not actually speechless!

There is depression, and emotions, etc. I can see in the early days there might be some fake it until you make it going on because I know I felt like such a turd and so embarrassed, why the heck would my husband even want to be with me? I feared sometimes that by coming on to strong it would reinforce to him that I was some "slut in heat" and I just wanted to use him too.

Of course I can't speak for your H, but, if you were to rank my desires of things my wife could show me in R, being "a slut in heat" would be near, or perhaps first on the list. A "slut in heat" for me, of course, which, in my eyes, is what she was for the OM (right or wrong).

I think the fundamental divide here is that I, and I think more than a few other men, would LOVE to be "used" for our sexuality. I honestly sought out those kinds of relationships when I was younger, where a woman wanted "nothing else" than to have sex with me. I realize that this is probably very different for women, the concept of "being used" sexually sounds like something that would be "bad" for women, but it's not at ALL that way for me. So, for women struggling with the issue of breaking the headboard after an A but upset that they are "using" their BH, please, don't assume they dislike it. You should ask, because not everyone is the same, but, for me, being "used" sexually is like a trip to fantasy island, not something awful that I would ever try to avoid. And thinking of a wife as a "slut" FOR ME (and no one else) is equally erotic and desired by me. There's literally nothing "too slutty" if it's the two of us, I could give a lot of WAY out of the line stuff that consenting adults do together, but to keep this relatively PG, I won't do that. Just know that, myself and I think other men as well, this is one of the most potent and erotic things imaginable. Just look at the porn that's popular, a ton of it (that actually has a story line) is "woman overcome with lust for some guy", and that guy, no matter the particular scenario presented in porn (and what's with the pizza guy and pool guy!?!) is the guy that at least some of us (and I think a lot of us) want to be. And it's "the guy" that we think that the AP was/is (and the "yes for him, no for you" is about the most horrible reinforcement that you can possibly get beyond "He was a god in bed and you suck").

About five years ago, when my WH and I were in a sexual rut for many reasons, including young kids, full-time jobs, and my own lady issues that I could not get under control no matter how many times I went to the Dr...anyway...I was watching a show on TV and a couple stated how they had committed to having sex every day for 30 days and how it helped them.

So, I thought I would give it a try but did not share this exact commitment with my WH. I just went all-in and bought all kinds of toys, pulled-out the lingerie, wore red spiked heals, sexted him with pics, and had a couple of shots ready for when he came home (he works late and kids were in bed). I repeated this effort each night, with some new experience, new outfit, dominated him, whatever sounded like fun in my mind. Around day 7 of having these fun porn-star nights, I asked him to buy some things that he would like to bring to the table. He put barely ANY effort into it, bought a couple of sexy outfits and called it good.

I can't tell you how much that hurt and I let him know as well. I expected so much more out of him because I was dropping all of the other crap I had to do around the house, with the kids, and with work in order to find a way to spice our life back up. It was like he just leaned back and kicked up his feet and was waiting on me to do all of the work. What I thought would be helpful for us, looking back, I realize now, actually killed our sex life. I didn't feel the same way about having sex with him anymore, it did get to be duty sex.

I offered all of these fantasies and more, basically, the sky was the limit, and my husband wouldn't take enough time to make a real effort to make me feel loved or appreciated for what I did for him, no reciprocation. Instead, he felt he was lucky and just kept taking and taking without giving me anything--in the bedroom or anywhere else. There were other things that I wanted to try and to buy, but when he wasn't being vulnerable to me after everything I had shared that bordered on embarrassing, well, I wasn't going to keep "embarrassing" myself and I shut the porn star down.

Now, WH's A was pretty vanilla sex (your standard positions) with oral, both ways. They didn't do anything else even close to porn star. I believe his biggest thrill was screwing her in our car in a secluded trailer lot. They were COWs, he talked to her all day most days of the week and then would leave work early to go fuck. They would also use their days off when OBS and I were at work to screw in each of our homes. She was an easy lay--within a week of responding to a flirtatious remark from WH, they were fucking.

So, what does this say about me? I feel like so many of the men on this thread, it's the actual sex that is killing me. I really don't give a shit that he didn't love her or care for her or that she wasn't even plan B, she was not even a plan, in fact, it kind of makes it worse.

I was willing to do anything, yet, he betrayed me for vanilla sex from a POSOW that was no where near a physical comparison to me. I am not being conceited, it's just fact. I look damn good and POSOW is unnoticeable.

I can't wrap my head around any of it. All of that time and effort WH put into getting it on the side 4x a month for vanilla sex when if he would have just put that time and effort into me at home he could have had his porn star dreams...well, it is beyond any understanding and comprehension. It eats me alive.

I agree, we all have the right to have an opinion and to comment where we choose. That includes me as well.

Agree, and I didn't say otherwise.

I was willing to do anything, yet, he betrayed me for vanilla sex from a POSOW that was no where near a physical comparison to me. I am not being conceited, it's just fact. I look damn good and POSOW is unnoticeable.

I can't wrap my head around any of it. All of that time and effort WH put into getting it on the side 4x a month for vanilla sex when if he would have just put that time and effort into me at home he could have had his porn star dreams...well, it is beyond any understanding and comprehension. It eats me alive.

Believe it or not, not all men land in affairs just for hot NSA sex. Most do, but some men, like your husband, crave the ego boost of having multiple women desire them. Like some waywards, his prime motivation was validation and attention.

The OW was most likely nowhere near as sexy, beautiful and sexually enthusiastic as you. All she had to do to get him in bed was tell him how hot he was and stroke his ego. That is what he craved...not the sex itself.

Wonderful post, butforthegrace!

This is a hard concept for me to empathize with because my fCH didn't do anything with or for the OW that he didn't do with or for me, before or after. There is one sex act that, if he had done with her, I don't know that I could get over. He says he didn't do it. There's no way for me to know. He really likes doing it. We did it the first time we had sex. Why wouldn't he do it with her? His answer? He didn't know where she'd been So, I agree that this isn't necessarily just a male pov.

Everyone has (or should have) autonomy. The BP can demand whatever they want. The CP always has the option to refuse. I was trying to express the point that sister expressed, I think. What do you do if your CW agrees to the sex act you demand, but only because she doesn't want to D? What if she doesn't really want to do it, and doesn't enjoy it? Would you still want her to do it? How would you know the difference? You can say you would know because of lack of enthusiasm, but I don't know. Most men don't know when a woman fakes an O, so...

I agree with sister that that's a dangerous place to go when it comes to body autonomy, especially for women. It's not the same as buying someone flowers or telling her she's beautiful. As a BH, if you value your CW as a person, you have to be very careful with that.

"RIO cheated because he wanted to have sex"

RIO, you also posted that you had sex to FEEL love. It's really important for you to keep that in your mind and in your gut.

There have been times I've initiated sex with a simple goal of getting my rocks off (in those cases I generally told my W). But mostly sex has been a way to give and receive love and acceptance. The spectacular events haven't been about techniques - for me, the more in sync we are, the better the results, and the better the results, the more I feel loved.

Bottom line is that almost any WW wishing to R with her BH is going to have to figure out how to ... convince him that her sexual desire for him is authentic.

That certainly was the case for me.

There IS a magic bullet. It's just that as a WS, you need to know what it is. And the "magic bullet" is pretty simple, do more. With more enthusiasm. More vigor. More desire. More times. More acts.

I'd change this to something like 1) find out what your BS wants, 2) commit to doing it or not (and let your BS know which), 3) meet your commitment or not, 4) adjust as appropriate (that is, keep communicating so you're doing what you both want).

Point 4 is critical. My W sometimes does something that seems to come out of left field. 'You said you liked that,' she'll say. Sometimes that's a 40 year old memory of something I said about that particular moment, but W generalized it.

An analogy: There was a time when, if I was batching it, I'd go from Szechwan restaurant to Szechwan restaurant (sorry - I don't know pinyin). Delicious, delicious food. Very spicy. If my W gave me Szechwanese food now, my response would be, 'WTF?'

You need to stay current. You need to know what your partner wants in the here and now.

[This message edited by sisoon at 12:10 PM, March 21st (Thursday)]

onthefence:

I just went all-in and bought all kinds of toys, pulled-out the lingerie, wore red spiked heals, sexted him with pics, and had a couple of shots ready for when he came home (he works late and kids were in bed). I repeated this effort each night, with some new experience, new outfit, dominated him, whatever sounded like fun in my mind.

Would you have done these things as a WW, instead of a BW? It seems the dynamics would change drastically. My WW tried this, and I was appreciative, it's what I think I wanted, but in the end it seemed contrived and insincere. This was not what her "normal" attitude was, toward me at least. She was trying to appease me sexually to prevent me from divorce, not out of passion or love, but self preservation. At least that was what was going on in my head. I suppose it's a no-win situation in that regard.

Twisted, I think you're right. It is a no win situation. Is she doing this because she really wants to do this with me, or is she doing this because she doesn't want to D? How do you know?

RIO - It's not that logically I couldn't understand that. I was pointing out the common state of mind a wayward can have. I don't think that it's always a good message that we say this all happens out of the gate. Those early months are bumpy.

For me, my BH was rocked to his core (I know I am preaching to the choir), the whole situation (that I brought on myself) was completely unnerving. Often we are trying to think of what to do and we get it really really wrong. It's not that I didn't want my husband, I mean we did have a period of HB, it's just sometimes difficult to get the sex to flow in a time where the connection is strained.

So, in other words, there are all these interpretations as to why a ww wouldn't do that for their H, and it just occurred to me in the early part you are kind of both in survival mode. For those of us who were even able to have sex during that time, looking back it was nothing short of a miracle.

I also wanted to make sure that I was framing this as something that is valid and needs worked on, but for new WH's if your wife is not doing these things there might be hidden inhibitors. In my mind I was so embarrassed that I really did feel like how could my husband want me after this? And, then you couple that with situations where the BH is having a lot of problems with mind movies and other stuff, it's hard to know what to do.

So, I guess I was just thinking of scenarios that might not be about the value but the state of mind directly after DDAY. After months of shock on his end and depression/shame wallowing on my end, the sex improved because we did, our situation did, the way we could relate together did. Early HB for us looked a lot more like grudge fucking, and I think that's why you hear the terms "sexual autonomy". But, even during the grudge fucking, I was really just thinking "well at least we are having sex" because I was clueless that it didn't mean it was a good sign. But I can also see that to others that could have been more about enduring something. I don't think that most men want "something to be endured" any more than women want the grudge fucking.

It is hard sometimes for me to remember how those early months are. When you get past those early months, then you really can't express to me why it was okay to do x with AP but not with H. It would be a rare situation someone could bring up that would convince me. Maybe this one...you tried something once and hated it. It was the first time you tried it, you didn't like it, you had AP stop, and that's it. So, I think that might be a good place where I can see one could claim sexual autonomy, but at the same time I can see a BH saying 'You never wanted to impress me enough to try it". I think that can still be remedied if the WW brings other things to experiment with, if they are able to show their desire enough, if they are able to show the WH they really are authentically turned on by them and want for their sex life to improve. I just think you get a lot of bh's here that there is no movement whatsoever to do anything to improve the sexual relationship, and as I mentioned in another post, that is no longer acceptable the way it would have been prior to the A.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:18 PM, March 21st (Thursday)]

This was not what her "normal" attitude was, toward me at least. She was trying to appease me sexually to prevent me from divorce, not out of passion or love, but self preservation. At least that was what was going on in my head. I suppose it's a no-win situation in that regard.

This was my exact fear. Trying too hard would have looked like I was controlling the outcome. I get how this could happen. The other fear I did have was if I did a new move would he think I got it from AP? I was really fearful around sex in those early days. We did it probably with about the same frequency (outside of the month of HB that happened early on).

Sex took a turning point for us really in month 10. It was really after he decided he didn't want to divorce me and wanted to see if we could make it work. By then I had read on these threads and felt we were communicating effectively enough to put my fears away.

It's only been since then I have seen the best of his healing and our relationship, that's why I do believe what these guys say is true. But, yes, I knew early on my husband didn't know who I was and I did have fears of being less than normal in our bed for a while would have caused reinforcement of that thinking. But, I do think our situation was also different because I didn't have all this crazy sex with different or better stuff happening, so I don't think he was taking all of it in the same way either.

I was willing to do anything, yet, he betrayed me for vanilla sex from a POSOW that was no where near a physical comparison to me. I am not being conceited, it's just fact. I look damn good and POSOW is unnoticeable.

The Coolidge effect is a real thing for a lot of people (I think more men than women though, I've never really heard a woman talk about it the same way). In fact, I think the Coolidge effect is a huge part of the reason that at least some (IMHO, a lot) of men cheat or become serial monogamists or, as I did "play the field" for a long time in my youth. New sex, even with someone not as pretty as the woman you just got done sleeping with, is often very good/exceptional. Not because of the woman, not because of how much you like/love her, just because of the Coolidge effect. There are actually studies on this in animals, take a single male, put him in a pen with a female, he'll have sex with her a few times and then settle into a routine (sex X number of times per day). Take that same male, put him into a pen with 10 females, he'll have sex with all of them, back to back, as fast as he can. Which makes 100% sense from an evolutionary perspective, new sex HAS to be rewarding to men to make sure that all available females can get pregnant. But this still exists in our reptilian brain and still drives us, or at least drove me, for a long time, to sleep with woman after woman to try to get that "new/awesome sex" feeling.

It's got nothing to do with you though, I've seen pictures of guys AP's before, and, yes, sometimes they are really pretty. But often, they are plain or, in some cases, WAY less attractive than their wives. But it doesn't matter because the "new sex" is just so powerful a motivator.

It's why I have such a hard time with "The sex was "meh"" from my WW. Because it does not compute! I can't see how it could be anything but spectacular, because, that's how it would be for me. Not because the AP was so awesome, just because the AP was someone new. But women don't have it the same way, it's not an evolutionary advantage for women want to sleep with every new man they meet, and, as such, I don't think that it's nearly as common that women feel the way about "new sex" that some men do. It's also one of the reasons men enjoy porn more than women, lots of "new sex" available with new and different people (that's what your reptile brain thinks).

This was my exact fear. Trying too hard would have looked like I was controlling the outcome

It's a valid fear. But I'd much rather be worried that my wife is controlling the outcome (by trying to f**k me to death; that's a joke!) than worried that my wife doesn't give 2 s**ts about me, our relationship and our sex life. Your right though, it's something I do think about today (for those who don't know, this issue was "fixed" for me quite awhile ago in R, I only continue to post on it not because I'm currently living this situation, only because I did live it and it was unbearably painful) and wonder, "Is she doing this just to control the outcome". But I think about that about 1/100th the time I thought "She's not showing me 1/2 the love the AP got, I'm plan B sexually, she was more attracted to him, etc". Pick your poison, but, to me, the "wondering if she's controlling the outcome" is a dramatically better result.

Frankly, I WANT HER to want to control the outcome. This isn't like the sun coming up in the morning, if she's not trying to and actively working to "control the outcome" (which, to me, means, stay married and build a better relationship), guess what? The "outcome" is going to choose itself, and that outcome is unlikely to be what she (or I) want. I don't understand the passivity of some people in this topic; is there anything more important to you? If not, why on earth wouldn't you want to try to control the outcome to wind up in a good place for you and your spouse. It's NOT a bad thing to care and to work to try to achieve the thing you want! And framing it as "controlling the outcome" just seems to make something negative out of it.

I prefer "Putting in the work and effort to do everything I can to build a better marriage and heal myself, my BS and our relationship". That's not controlling, that's what a rational person does when they want something (the M) that requires effort (R).

[This message edited by Rideitout at 1:28 PM, March 21st (Thursday)]