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Some actual WWs have posted on this thread. Other BHs who have their own WWs. Generally there seems to be a theme that a WW interested in R is open to do more, to court the BS, to make things right if they can. This is the experience of actual WWs.

Yes, this is the experience of the WWs who posted on this thread.

WWs like Mrs.Walloped and HikingOut who posted have successfully R'd, and those were the choices they made as part of working towards that R.

There are other WWs who have made opposite choices in regards to their sex life. Some who chose that route may have R'd, it seems like most haven't. But it was still their choice.

As a BW, if you are in R, it is your opportunity to remake the marriage to meet your needs. WWs are on the other side of the fence.

As much as I HATE being a BW, sometimes I feel like it gives us an unfair advantage, in that we think we get to rewrite the marriage on our terms and our terms only. We get to make a bunch of demands, and then whenever the WS questions anything they are told "well you had an A, you just have to deal with all of this, no matter what." That's just simply not true. Yes, their choices have consequences, and I'm in no way advocating for rug sweeping or blame shifting. Yes, I wrote a letter to my WXH telling him, "You made your bed. Now lie in it," and even though I didn't send it, I do believe that, wholeheartedly.

But no matter what it takes two. The WS still has autonomy and gets to make choices. I ultimately have to concede that my WH made choices, and many of those choices were in reaction to aspects of our marriage that he didn't know how to cope with in a healthy way. They were hurtful, and ultimately not helpful in rebuilding our marriage. They were not choices that I would have made, but I'm not him.

He got sick of dealing with my emotions re: his sex addiction, he got frustrated with how long it was taking me to work through those emotions, and he had an affair to orchestrate as quick of an exit as he could.

I don't blame myself for his A. He had a million other choices he could have made, and he chose that one. But I can see the broken parts of him that would lead him to make such a decision, and I can understand them. Isn't that what we're all trying to do, seeking to understand? It's what every BS-seeking-answers-from-WS post is all about. Why? Why? Why?

I am not a WH. But I would expect to be treated a certain way if I acted like one in a marriage. Why can't the same apply to BW/WW? Can't you identify with the fact that if you were indeed a WW, you would be facing an entirely different situation? Different actions on your part, different feelings, a different reaction from your BH? Different consequences?

I know this is a highly sensitive topic. I don't mean to negate the BH's feelings here. Each person is going to have their own reaction to a betrayal like this. We share a lot of similarities, but we obviously also differ based on personalities etc.

Of course, being the WW would put me in an entirely different set of circumstances than those I currently find myself in, and I would expect consequences. I would expect that my BH would have a long list of requirements for me to meet before he considered R. One of those requirements might be doing the things that I did for the AP. Knowing myself, I would have never had an A in the first place, but if I did, and *super specific sex act done with the AP* was a requirement for R, I would be disgusted with myself, and it would be difficult, but I would probably eventually give in and do it, because I would imagine I would care enough about my marriage to do so if I knew it was *that* important to my BH. But I would still ultimately have a choice in how I responded to my BH's requests post A, would I not? Just as the BH had a choice in what he asked of me for R?

That's why in my previous post I said:

It is okay that my WXH's addictive behaviors made me want to run and hide from our sex life, when previously we had enjoyed a very active one. It is also okay that BHs like in RideItOut's situation feel the need to reclaim it, and to "get" all of the things they want that they were previously denied. Both of those feelings are valid. But if we subscribe to the notion that everyone has a choice, and I believe the common rhetoric on this site says that we do, then we have to accept that the reactions to our choices are equally valid, even if we don't agree with them. And the reason that works, is because we then have a choice to react however we want to their choice, and so on, and so forth.

We can't be up on our high horse as the BS and say that they made a choice to have an A, but our response to that A wasn't a choice, it was BECAUSE of the A. That's hypocritical AF. It was informed by the A, yes. It was in reaction to the A, yes. But either actions taken are choices, or they are not. I think we're all in agreement that they are. Except for bodily functions you cannot control like the unexpected vomiting, nightmares, PTSD etc., how we choose to react to the A is still a CHOICE.

The 180 is a CHOICE. So many of us don't implement it when we first get here, and then we see where those actions lead us, and we decide to make other choices. Making a list of requirements for R is a choice. Demanding a polygraph is a choice. Requiring a timeline is a choice. Requesting over the top sex acts is a choice. None of those choices actually require a specific reaction from the WS. We all hope that they trigger a certain type of response in them, but we can't control them anymore than we can control the weather, and assuming we can control them is its own form of inflated ego that comes with its own set of problems.

The only thing that took away our choice in the first place was the A. They were making choices for us by lying to us and not giving us all of the facts to make an informed decision. The choices we were making were based on lies, which is why we feel so utterly betrayed - we were forced into making choices we wouldn't have made had we been aware of all of the facts.

But pain/betrayal only causes 50% of the maximum amount of our suffering. The other 50% is working ourselves up into a frenzy trying to seek relief for that pain, not getting it, and then continuing to seek the relief in the same manner as before. So I can choose to continue seeking relief for that pain from someone who might not be willing and/or able to give it, thus continuing to increase my suffering in the hopes that one day it might decrease. That is a perfectly acceptable choice, one I made for years. Or I decide to live with the pain, and stop asking for that change, just move through it and forgive. Or I decide the pain is too much and get the F out of there, losing the one I love and tearing my family apart. Sometimes every possible choice has crappy aspects to it. But just because I don't like the choices doesn't mean they aren't there.

Maybe an enthusiastic reenactment of every single sex act a WW did with her AP is what a BH needs in order to heal and in order to R. But considering that most of the time these threads are born of "I want her to do it, but I want her to want to do it, I shouldn't have to ask" mentality, the request for it is kind of a Catch 22. If she engages, it's not good enough, because she didn't want it. If she doesn't engage, she doesn't care enough about him. But if the WW performing those acts is THAT important to the BH, and she chooses not to engage in it, then that must mean that the BH either a) keeps working on trying to convey to his WW how important this is to him in the hopes that she will see the light and do it b) accepts that she's not doing it and lives with it or c) moves on. If that is the one stumbling block he can't get past, then maybe R just isn't in the cards. It's frustrating as f$&!, but those are the choices.

My only initial conditions for R were to stop masturbating with my underwear (could use any other underwear he wanted, as long as it wasn't mine), and stop watching porn. Oh, and as penance for your royal screw up, you're going to have to deal with no sex from me for a while. Laughably easy marks to hit, in my opinion as the BW. But these were near impossible for him to hit for a very long time. And there are many men here who would say "but, but, but, you're never going to get a man to stop using porn! His sex drive is a biological need to perpetuate the species, and if that need is not met he must find another outlet for that need, and since you are not having sex with him he must masturbate and to masturbate he must use porn!" Nope, not needs, choices. Otherwise every A every WH has had could be justified by his biological need to "spread his seed."

In fact it is my biological imperative to carry a child. We are literally built for it. We don't have hips because you find them sexy, we have hips so that we can carry and bear children. We don't have breasts because you find them tantalizing, we have breasts so we can nurture those children. If we're talking pure biology, we don't have any of those characteristics because you find them attractive, you are attracted to those things because they indicate our fertility. That's why I get a period every month. And it's not something that people often discuss, but a woman's body actually produces hormones that make us hornier and more wet in response to ovulation, because we only get one shot at it a month, and the hornier we are the more likely we are to seek out sex, and the wetter we are the easier it is for the sperm to get to the egg, and our bodies want us to get pregnant any chance we get! So, when my husband was biologically incapable of having kids for years, why did I not just go out and get myself pregnant with someone else's baby? Choices, that's why.

Reducing sex to the biological processes happening in our bodies ignores the incredibly large brains we have that are able to overcome those processes all. the. time.

So yes, I had no interest in sex for lengths of time because I just wasn't comfortable with it. An argument can be made that this was not healthy for my marriage, but it was a choice I made because it felt like what was right for me as the BW. Not so for my WH. He chose to keep doing the things I asked him not to. So then I had choices - to stay or to go? I stayed, and stayed, and stayed, hoping he would make different choices, and I only ended up more miserable, until I became willing to adjust and make different choices.

The terms of R can change as your perspective does. In the beginning I was strictly "no porn!" because I hated it, and I felt like it contributed to all of the other issues. But after a while, I realized that he kept going back to the porn anyway, and as far as I knew it was always the same DVDs, so over time I wasn't nearly as "threatened" by it. I still felt it contributed to some of the other behaviors, so I wasn't thrilled about it. But he was frustrated by other issues in our sex life, and I felt like letting up on that boundary wouldn't be as hurtful to me as I originally felt it to be, but might actually be beneficial in alleviating that frustration for him, and thus for me as well. So I gave in and said look, you can watch porn, just don't let it affect our lives by using it to excess, leaving it in the DVD player for the girls to find etc.

If you really truly feel that with time and communication you've come to understand something about an aspect of the A and/or relationship that you did not understand before, and because of that newfound understanding you no longer have an issue with it, it is not a problem to rewrite that boundary! Just as if you really, truly came to understand why your WW had all of the "crazy porn star sex" with the AP, you might not want it anymore. Or you might, and that's still your prerogative.

Over time, and through many, many conversations, he did in fact eventually understand the importance of not using my underwear, and that became almost a non-issue, with very few relapses. Much like with HikingOut, who needed time, conversation and perspective to see how important sex was to her BH in order to change her thinking about it. I hated that it took so much explaining for him to "get it." I could not wrap my head around why he ever thought it was okay to do that, or why he continued to do it despite my pleas to stop. But had I not taken the time to explain to him why it was so important, I doubt he ever would have understood, and I doubt anything would have changed.

Now it turns out that porn/masturbation was just the tip of the iceberg for my WH, and there was actually a ton more going on under the surface, so I was in false R to begin with. But I still don't feel it was the wrong decision to let up on my porn restriction. It was the right decision for me at the time, given the information that I had.

In response to his requests for more sex - could I have had sex with him every single night for multiple hours at a time, in numerous positions with all different outfits and scenarios like he wanted? Yeah, I COULD have. I did, for a long time. But then I would have been raw, exhausted, unable to concentrate on my work because I was exhausted, and every household task would be put off and every bill unpaid because I would be too preoccupied with keeping up our sex life to deal with it. I know, because I lived it for a while. It was unsustainable. In a way, my experience was similar to that of a WW whose BH demands "crazy porn star sex" - I knew that him leaving me over lack of sex was a risk. But it was a risk I was willing to take because a) I was unwilling to compromise my own values on the matter, and b) I felt we had a strong emotional connection that superseded the sex issue. It wasn't that I couldn't live up to his expectations in our marriage, I obviously had in the past. But with all of the extenuating circumstances, I just didn't want to. If I had truly known how deeply it was affecting our marriage, I might have made different choices. That's why communication is so key. But I didn't know, I didn't make different choices, so here I stand.

That's not to say that a BH can't make those requests because that is what they feel they need. I made what many men would deem "unrealistic" requests as a BW, some that I became more lenient with, and others I did not. And even if given a do-over I still don't think I would have backed down on his requests to have more sex, because it came from a place of self respect and knowing my worth that I wouldn't trade for anything. But my WH left me because I made that request and he just wasn't okay with fulfilling it long term. It wasn't that he couldn't live up to it, he just didn't want to. And that was his choice. He left in the most messed up way possible. That was his choice too.

The hardest part of this process, for me, has been coming to terms with the fact that no matter how much I would like to, I can control no one's actions but my own. I would imagine that in one way or another, these same thoughts creep in for every BS. We can continue to rage against that and insist we have control that we don't have, but what's the point? What does that accomplish?

Awesome post- I will also Point our, mostly for striver that it’s really an opportunity for both people to remake the marriage into what you want. I didn’t realize that nor does it maybe seem fair to write that but I will explain.

Yes there is a period of time the ww has to work very hard on themselves. There is a power imbalance for some period of time and much to try and do to prove ourselves worthy for staying. BUT I will say that there also comes a point where the marriage is really being rebuilt for both people to thrive in. I am far happier with the marriage we have today than what it had become. I will be vigilant to keep it this way because it’s how it should be. I will never feel good about how that came to be, but moving forward that’s what it is.

I'm always saying here "the details matter". There are a lot of threads on SI, with a lot of different ways in which the WS was sexual with the AP. There was a thread where a WW had a hot ONS with a hot sexy man, and returned to her BH to enthusiastically report that this hot man was such a sexual master that he turned her out and she was ready to take sex with her BH to a higher level now that her sex lioness was awakened. Not surprisingly, the BH wasn't very enthused about this idea.

I think that for most people, if a WS conveyed a message to the BS along the lines of, "my AP was the best sex I've ever had, so good that in order to have sex with you, BS, I have to just close my eyes and imagine you are the AP", that would be a deal-killer.

I think in RIO's case, his issues isn't so much the worry that his WW enjoyed her AP sexually more than she enjoys RIO; it's that his WW invested so much more time/energy/imagination into doing things to give the AP sexual pleasure, beyond what she had done for RIO. There is another poster here, I've forgotten the name, whose comments echo a similar theme. His WW started going to the gym a ton, lost a lot of weight, got in shape, cleaned up the look, trimmed the pussy, etc. -- basically invested in making herself sexy and hot, for the AP.

The feeling of the BS on this is highly personal and subjective. There is a poster whose WW had a highly sexual A with a contractor in their home. She tried everything she could to R with her BH, but in the end, no matter what she did, he could not get past the feelings of sexual humiliation and its associated anger and pain, and ended up pursuing D. "That ephemeral matter of the heart", as I often say.

I will say that, from a man's perspective, the "sex acts done for the AP better be on the table for me" is a double-edged sword. Say my WW never gave me a BJ to completion before the A, but she was swallowing like a porn star with the AP. As part of R, she offers now to swallow mine. On the one hand, this feels good and I'm happy about that. On the other, there is a nagging sense she would not be doing it but for the A, which makes it somehow inauthentic, forced. This is where that ephemeral matter of the heart comes in. Which side of that kife's edge his heart ultimately ends up on depends on the alchemy of the often unspoken emotional communications that surround sex.

HeHadADoubleLife,

I appreciate your response.

I'm short on time. One scenario occurs to me.

There aren't a lot of long term WH here in general, and I think none on this thread. But it isn't hard for me to imagine many men with Madonna/Whore or mommy issues where THEY are the ones denying the BW certain behaviors and going all out with the AP. And that the BW would actually LIKE some of those behaviors in the M.

However, if the BW is willing to reconcile, I think a WH who refused to incorporate those parts of himself into the marriage would not be treated well here or taken seriously. We don't treat men that way.

Also, it's hard to separate "I'm disgusted with that act" from "I just don't want to do it with YOU, I want you in your safe provider role." That is what a lot of BH hear when they hear that from a WW.

On the one hand, this feels good and I'm happy about that. On the other, there is a nagging sense she would not be doing it but for the A, which makes it somehow inauthentic, forced.

That’s why I said the WW should do it on her own if she can. If my BH has to demand it, then if I say yes, it comes across as forced or me just doing whatever he wants so that he doesn’t divorce me. Maybe my BH doesn’t care about that because at least he got a BJ or something out of it. But he will eventually. And if I say no because of what people already said about feeling degraded or not being psychologically ready to do those things, even if it’s a condition for R, then R will fail.

As a WW I made my own bed. These are just the consequences of my actions. The BH can always ask and the WS can always choose to say yes or no, and the BH is always in his right to D if he wants to because of the answer.

I will say that, from a man's perspective, the "sex acts done for the AP better be on the table for me" is a double-edged sword. Say my WW never gave me a BJ to completion before the A, but she was swallowing like a porn star with the AP. As part of R, she offers now to swallow mine. On the one hand, this feels good and I'm happy about that. On the other, there is a nagging sense she would not be doing it but for the A, which makes it somehow inauthentic, forced. This is where that ephemeral matter of the heart comes in. Which side of that kife's edge his heart ultimately ends up on depends on the alchemy of the often unspoken emotional communications that surround sex.

There's really no good answer to this unfortunately. There are bad and worse answers. Yes, "recreating" sex acts that were done with the AP feels inauthentic and forced, no doubt about it. So that's the "bad". The "worse" though, at least for me, is the feeling "she just liked/loved him more and was more willing to sacrifice for him". And then there are shades of gray between the 2, the best is a WS who just "does it" as part of R. No discussion, no fights, no "I need this to R" from the BS. Just does it. The worse version of that is "does it, but only after a lot of convincing" (convincing that the AP certainly did NOT have to do).

That’s why I said the WW should do it on her own if she can. If my BH has to demand it, then if I say yes, it comes across as forced or me just doing whatever he wants so that he doesn’t divorce me. Maybe my BH doesn’t care about that because at least he got a BJ or something out of it. But he will eventually. And if I say no because of what people already said about feeling degraded or not being psychologically ready to do those things, even if it’s a condition for R, then R will fail.

And that's the entire value in these threads for me. The hope that some WS somewhere is reading it and thinks "wow, maybe the anal I had with the AP but don't with my H is a problem and, instead of waiting for him to melt down, I'll do it with him". Or, "Maybe the flowers I brought to the AP every time I saw her is a problem for my BW, and, you know what, maybe I should bring her flowers to try to help her heal". That's my sincerest hope with these threads, is some WS somewhere is reading it and thinking "Huh, you know, that's my situation and perhaps I should step up my game in whatever love language it is that my BS hears best". For men, that's often sex, and for women it's often words and gifts, but, of course, it all depends on your particular spouse and what they find valuable and "loving".

There aren't a lot of long term WH here in general, and I think none on this thread. But it isn't hard for me to imagine many men with Madonna/Whore or mommy issues where THEY are the ones denying the BW certain behaviors and going all out with the AP. And that the BW would actually LIKE some of those behaviors in the M.

It's not hard to imagine, and I'm sure it has happened before, but if my experience here is any guide, it's pretty uncommon. I recall a few stories of a WH doing something with the AP that the BW would have really enjoyed but it's not typically a sexual act, it's something else. I know there are men out there who deny their wives certain sexual acts (top of the list would have to be oral sex), but I don't actually know any IRL, I've only read about it on forums like this and others. So, I think what you're seeing in this thread is a good representation of reality, if the issue is sexual access, that's very commonly a "female denying male" thing. But, if we flip it around, if the issue was romance, talking, emotional intimacy; those are typically "male denying the female" things. Not always, but most commonly that's what I've seen. And the thing that always burns me up a little about these threads, if it was the "flipped" situation, a WH denying his wife the words he gave to the AP, we'd all agree, without exception, he better "step it up" and start writing sonnets on a daily basis. It's only when it's sex (or sexual acts) that's denied that we have this big gender split.

There aren't a lot of long term WH here in general, and I think none on this thread. But it isn't hard for me to imagine many men with Madonna/Whore or mommy issues where THEY are the ones denying the BW certain behaviors and going all out with the AP. And that the BW would actually LIKE some of those behaviors in the M.

There have been quite a number of threads of BWs here addressing their pain over sexual stuff their WHs did with the AP that they didn't do with the BW, ranging from just showing more sexual brio with the AP to specifics like performing oral on the AP, but not on the BW.

There is also a unique subset of BW threads on here where the AP performed specific sexual acts for the WH that the BW thereafter refuses to perform, ever, for the WH. I don't believe I've ever seen the reverse of that (where a BH refused to perform a sexual act on the WW because the AP did it).

It has also been my observation that one of the hardest things for a betrayed man to overcome is a circumstance where his WW had, prior to the A, specifically rejected a sexual act with him (that is, he asked her to do it and she said no), then she enthusiastically performed that same sexual act with the AP. I can't recall a thread where a couple successfully reconciled if that element was part of the A.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 10:57 AM, March 20th (Wednesday)]

From page 1:

I wasn't happy with our "pre-A sex life" but I accepted it. I knew what I'd signed up for when I got married and I carried that burden as part of the "job" of being married. No, it wasn't great, and yes, there were a lot of "nos" that seemed unreasonable to me, but I made that deal. I could try to change hearts and minds, but that was entirely optional and would be icing on the marriage cake, not a "must have". That all goes out the window though after an A

AGREED!! Sex was very VERY vanilla and I got into the routine of accepting it because I was just thankful to get it altogether... until Dday. Now the doors have been blasted open after having discovered how she sexted with her partners and jumped on them.

For me, vanilla is no longer an option on the table any longer. Either there's cookie dough in every spoonful or magic shell on ever bowl. End of story.

Sexuality is complicated. There were things I had previously enjoyed, sought out and initiated even!, that post A were just triggers. After his actions, I subconsciously chose to disconnect from him. Becoming his Plan B did not make me want to have more sex with him to reclaim that part of our relationship. Yes, my standing as "the best he'd ever had" felt like it had been taken away. But it didn't make me want to defend that position, I didn't feel the need to prove that I was better than the toys/lube/porn, It made me want to run away and hide from it.

This resonates so much with me. I am a SA survivor and and I didn't put 2 and 2 together about my WS being a sex addict until after his last A. I was extremely sexual at the beginning of our relationship and M. It wasn't until all the constant badgering and insulting if I didn't have daily sex and his obsessive porn use started to tank my sex drive.

This led to his first A and then my own A.

My A reignited my sexual feelings, but I did not enjoy the sex with my AP. Sex has always been better with my WS. What I did enjoy from my A are the validation and emotional connection I got from it. I did not enjoy the lying and deceiving.

One thing I need to point out is that R is a process. What you think you need on Dday +1 is vastly different on Day + 2555.

I will also say that the "shame" related to certain sex acts can be worked through. How? Lots and lots of talking. Therapy doesn't hurt either.

So she gave up x,y or z to OM doesn't necessarily mean it is off the table forever. Maybe start with things that neither of you have done with anyone else again. Explore what really gets you going. It is new for both of you so it carries a lot less baggage.

Again sexual recovery is usually the last thing to come back. Sometimes there is an underlying medical condition (hormones, etc.) that needs to be addressed. Sometimes past experiences or past trauma gets in the way and that has to be addressed before wading into these very sensitive waters.

Compliance breeds resentment. I think we all agree with that. How do you get to a point where things are back on the table with enthusiasm? A hell of a lot of talking, listening and understanding.

My wife hates vacuuming less than I do. I usually do it because acts of service are her main love language. Does that translate to wild and crazy sex ? No. It might make her feel loved and honestly that is my only motivation. Score keeping was a big part of our M pre-Dday and it took time to extract that from our M. It is really only a demonstration of love If I do it selflessly because I want to.

We both understand 100% why I do the vacuuming and what it means for each of us. We talked about it until we both had the same understanding and can assign it the same meaning. We both had to be willing to be honest and give explanations. Rinse and repeat.

Bored, yet ?

Sex. Got your attention now?

Yes communication was key. I learned one hell of a lot about how my W views sex and she learned a lot about how I view it. She had hang ups that she needed to work through. Often things she assumed were not the case. She really did not understand my sexuality and how complex it was. I was much, much more than a walking hard on. The meaning I gave to things were often misunderstood too. We were both patient and flexible. It took time. Loads of it.

If you want your spouse to do x,y and z then talk to them about it. If they absolutely refuse z then you talk about why that is off the table. Then you talk about that reason and how it might impact other parts of your M. you talk about why you want Z and why.

Talk, talk, talk, talk. Repeat. It seems unsexy, but these convos sometimes lead to some of our best lovemaking to date. Connected, safe and comfortable. Sometimes they lead to non-sexual cuddles, back massages, etc.

FWIW- I have x and y all day long. I even got w even though I did not ask for it (I liked it BTW). Z is on the table, but we are not quite there yet. It is a journey we are talking together and our overall goal there is to keep it fresh, exciting and novel. That is really why I thought z was important to me. Who knows ? When we get to Z I know it is not something she wants exactly, but often with other things she is pleasantly surprised. On the other hand it might not be all that I made it up to be in my mind.

DragnHeart, I stole CH/CP from someone else. I prefer it to wayward as much as I've always preferred cheating to affair. Wayward and affair sound benign, almost pleasant. An affair could be a fancy party. Cheater, cheating, and betrayal are more accurate for me.

Can't remember who said it, but I liked the statement about not being plan a or plan b. I was not even part of the equation. Nothing about the A was about me.

Intellectually, I understand that men show and feel a deeper love connection through sex. However, it's hard to feel when so many men have sex just to have sex. They'll have sex with total strangers and never have any contact again. That makes it hard to know if the man is having sex with me because he loves me or just because he wants to get his rocks off. I thought my fCH had sex with me because he loves me, until he had sex with the OW, whom he supposedly did not love. Then, it was like, well, hell, who knows why he has sex with anyone.

I really like HeHadaDoubleLife's comments about biology vs. choices. I was thinking about that yesterday. We all have a very strong biological urge for sex in order to reproduce and pass on our genetic info. Unlike chimpanzees, though (maybe?), we also have a thinking part of our brains (the cerebral cortex, frontal lobe) that helps us decide what action based on those urges is the best.

I had lots more to say, but I've forgotten. I leave it at that for now.

Intellectually, I understand that men show and feel a deeper love connection through sex. However, it's hard to feel when so many men have sex just to have sex. They'll have sex with total strangers and never have any contact again. That makes it hard to know if the man is having sex with me because he loves me or just because he wants to get his rocks off. I thought my fCH had sex with me because he loves me, until he had sex with the OW, whom he supposedly did not love. Then, it was like, well, hell, who knows why he has sex with anyone.

FEEL love, not SHOW love. And that's the important distinction for me. I wasn't having sex with women to show them I loved them, I was having sex with them to feel loved by them. And this is the very PG rated version of it; I'm not sure I was seeking that "loving" feeling at all. I didn't want to be loved, I wanted someone to f**k me. And I enjoyed that a lot.

But, like all things, you need context. Yes, in my personal experience, men could care less about their AP's so long as the sex keeps coming. But those same men (and others) love their wives very much and have sex with them too.. You need to examine the entire picture, if you're an AP, no, it's not likely this is anything but sex. Same with a ONS. But if you're his wife, well, things are different then and it's almost certainly an expression of love. Kind of like how "I love you" has a totally different meaning said to your parents vs your wife. Same words, totally different context.

So I think it's entirely possible, in fact probable, that your H feels loved through sex AND at the same time will turn around and "have sex with anyone". Because that's not how he shows love, it's how he gets it. Or speaking for me, that's the case. I enjoyed having sex with strangers and people I'd never see again because it was fun and I liked the feeling (if you want to call it "loved" so be it, I never really focused on that though, it was the physical feelings that I really enjoyed). To quote the cliche, "love's got nothing to do with it".

Be careful, RIO, you’re about trip over everything you’ve been saying these past couple years.

Ah, RIO, that makes much more sense. Gosh, and it only took me almost 49 years to get that! I can certainly understand how a man would not feel loved if he weren't getting sex from his wife, or if she's having sex with someone else. Women feel that way, too.

I used to feel loved by my fCH when we had sex. After his A, not so muxh. Afterward, it was just a thing to do to feel good physically. I don't feel that deep love connection with him through sex anymore. That specialness of it is gone. This is getting better with time, though.

A bonus for us that this discussion has brought that I think you will appreciate. I've been sharing this with him. Asking questions about what he thinks and how he feels about some of the things brought up. I asked him about fantasies and fetishes. Now, he sending me texts with links and photo examples.

I must confess I haven't read exactly every post. Some I have read all, skimmed some. So I hope this isn't totally coming from left field.

What I did notice is that some have discussed the "sex on demand"/required sex acts dynamic that some BH's feel they need. I am not saying what they feel is not valid. I wouldn't know what a BH feels as I am not one. I do know their pain is intense over sexual acts and sex in general. That many BH's become stuck there and can not move past it. That is just who they are at their core. It must be awful to be stuck there especially if you love and care for your WW.

What I am hoping, especially with the WW's posts, that they are coming to understand that bodily autonomy is different then the usual reconciliation requirements. I think it backfires in the end. It is kind of an unspoken or, sometimes, actually spoken, coercion. Bodily autonomy is different than being required to bring home your spouse flowers, gifts, or go on dates. Or being completely transparent, boundaries, etc. etc. Bodily autonomy is your body. No one has a right to your body and the choices you make for your body. The only way I think this (sex on demand/required sex acts) can work is if you decide to totally go in on the Sub/Dom relationship. Because, actually, some people some WS's I think would actually enjoy being a sub. I think I have noticed it subtly from some WW's. Not talking about any of the WW's posting right now on the board as I haven't been around for awhile.

What I do feel every BH and BW has a right to say is "I am not happy with our sex life the way it used to be. This is what I would like to happen in our sex life going forward." Try to reframe it as a marital issue as opposed to an infidelity issue. Have a healthy and two way discussion about both of your expectations on sex going forward. But, I wouldn't use it with the added or implied "else, I am going to divorce you". Of course, in the future if you aren't happy with your sex life in the coming years you always have the option to divorce but it doesn't have to be related to the infidelity. Sucky sex lives that won't or can't be improved on, I feel, is a legit reason to divorce. But, you don't have to get an AP first.

ETA: some clarity

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 10:54 AM, March 21st (Thursday)]

FEEL love, not SHOW love. And that's the important distinction for me. I wasn't having sex with women to show them I loved them, I was having sex with them to feel loved by them. And this is the very PG rated version of it; I'm not sure I was seeking that "loving" feeling at all. I didn't want to be loved, I wanted someone to f**k me. And I enjoyed that a lot.

But, like all things, you need context. Yes, in my personal experience, men could care less about their AP's so long as the sex keeps coming. But those same men (and others) love their wives very much and have sex with them too.. You need to examine the entire picture, if you're an AP, no, it's not likely this is anything but sex. Same with a ONS. But if you're his wife, well, things are different then and it's almost certainly an expression of love. Kind of like how "I love you" has a totally different meaning said to your parents vs your wife. Same words, totally different context.

Nothing about this makes sense to me. You know why? Because I have been saying over and over and over again that men get ego kibbles from sex, and I keep getting told that they don't. ("The AP didn't get ego kibbles! He got fantastic sex!")

But here it is: men cheat for ego kibbles, "to FEEL love." I knew it! Finally. People cheat for ego kibbles! All of them! Even or especially WW. Sex = ego kibble need, not sexual need!

I'm with cocoplus.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 4:14 PM, March 20th (Wednesday)]

Literally^^^^^^^^^FUCKING YEARS!^^^^^^^^^^^^for some to get this.

Marriage is like this-

Today is selection. Prove you want/deserve to be here in the M.

When tomorrow comes, read the above again.

People who want to be in the M, will show it via actions. People who don't, will show it via actions/inactions.

Observe and act.

I hate the phrase, "sex on demand". I don't think any BH here saying that making sexual acts done with the AP and previously refused the BH a requirement for R are sayingthat they expect to be able to just walk into the kitchen while wifey is cooking and say, "On your knees, woman! I want oral!".

Further saying that for sexual acts to be a part of R requirements, that the couple should go into a dom/sub relationship is just silly.

In my DNA it shows that I have a relatively high portion of Neanderthal DNA so that may affect my ideas BUT for me if the A had "special" sex that had not been on the menu for me it is either on the table from now on or she is gone!

I had a poster on here that kindly explained that her A had degrading things going on involving choking and other degrading things that she needed to heal from. I explained that "no I would not force her to do those things if she was my wife BUT I would divorce her because of that. Nobody is going to have a piece of my wife while married to me that she will not engage with me in. No "special place in either her heart or memory" is allowed to be occupied by her AP.

Whatever she did BEFORE the marriage is NOT subject to these rules. After she married me is the important part of her life as far as I am concerned. I would probably never even ask about previous sexual adventures because I never have.

I realize that ALL the BW's (hi sistermilkshake) are going to go ballistic about this post however it is what it is.

JMO YMMV