SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

No intention here to mock or troll the post by cocoplus5nuts. The post made me think a little. I copied the title to acknowledge the possibility that women may also see themselves as plan b, so I'm looking at the situation in reverse and wondering, if and to what extent plan b thoughts exists among BW's.

Posts and threads suggests plan b is nearly exclusive to men, however women who are great mothers, wives, caretakers of the home and pillars in the community, do they see themselves also as plan b because of their husbands seeing them as a safe choice in comparison to the AP?

BW's.. do you feel your husband has returned to you because you are a safe and reliable, but missing qualities your husband experienced or saw in the AP that made him leaves work early for, lose weight for, and had more frequent and loving sex with?

I’m glad you posted this...as a BW I have accepted I am an option to my WH. Not sure if that qualifies as plan B but in practicality, yes I am plan B.

None of how our marriage has turned out to be would be my plan A either. Yet here we are both waiting for the other to flinch in a less than satisfying marriage because it is a known variable, familiar etc. I know he stays because the finances would be a mess, I guess I’m the lesser of two evils compared to being saddled with half the debt.

I’m in process of embracing my own choice in this. I’m not really ok with either of us being plan B. But I do know I cannot make him my plan A if he only sees me as plan B. I’m watching and waiting to see if there is a change if there is not, I’m ready and able to make a choice to release myself from the label “optional”.

Absolutely Yes!!!!

I’m smart, successful, dependable, responsible basically plus I bring home da 🥓 🥓 🥓.

Yes I’m not as pretty or in shape and older but he knows that in every other department he cannot find better... so he’s not stupid.. I’m like a sugar mama.

When I found out about the PA .. I asked him how were they special or better... he always said they weren’t 🙄

The funny thing is that Every SOW wasn’t good looking or smart in fact there’s wasn’t anything that special about them ...just young...

so if he found somebody that was equally smart as me and successful plus 30 years younger he might have stayed with them.

Yes. All of it. But I flipped the script and divorced him anyway. And everytime he tried to weasel back in, or set me up to take OW's place, I shut that down. Now, the boys are grown and we no longer have any joint property, so he's completely blocked. Shrek was fun, exciting, pure fantasy. He left to go live out the dream. The only time I was a consideration was as plan B.

This is as as individual as affairs themselves are. In the months following dday I felt like plan B. I searched for clues in his behavior and words that proved me wrong. I wore more makeup, wore sexier clothes, styled my hair the way he likes, etc. A year in, I realized that it is up to my WH to prove through his consistent actions that I am not second best to anyone. What does that look like? For me it was:

Him planning date nights

Initiating communication to stay in touch during the day

Consulting me about social gatherings or events

Making sex a priority and show genuine desire and love

These are not things I asked for but instead are things that he began to do out of fear that I would leave.

Interesting and thoughtful topic. No I don't feel that way. While I have been disabled for years, done my best to take care of our home and daughter, I feel my contribution was huge. I was the support, the thread, the stability of everything. I see that as an invaluable contribution and will never see myself as less then. My H didn't love his AP, she was an ex body buddy that was nothing more than a slut. She was married when their affair started and she doesn't hold a candle to me. I live in pain daily but push through it. I have always tried to rise above my limitations and work hard daily at being a viable and good person. My H is lucky I am even considering R but I have not committed to it. He hasn't earned it. I need to see constant actions from him, otherwise he doesn't deserve me. I hate that women are often put down for being SAHM, one of the hardest jobs in the world with no pay, often no praise, just the love of the most important little people. I do think husbands often stay because of the safety and security of someone who handles everything they don't. Screw that. If I leave I will ensure that my future has some security as I have earned it for years. I am working on it now.

however women who are great mothers, wives, caretakers of the home and pillars in the community, do they see themselves also as plan b because of their husbands seeing them as a safe choice in comparison to the AP?

I am sure some BW's feel that way. I could have felt that way, but my FWH has shown me that I was not Plan B. I wouldn't hang around if I felt I was Plan B. I will not settle being a Plan B, nor should anyone. I may have to be Plan B for awhile to get my ducks in a row, but I wouldn't be able to live as a Plan B.

BW's.. do you feel your husband has returned to you because you are a safe and reliable, but missing qualities your husband experienced or saw in the AP that made him leaves work early for, lose weight for, and had more frequent and loving sex with?

My FWH ended his LTA because he realized that the OW was crazy. He realized he had no control over It and he realized that OW was a loose cannon. He was afraid It was going to blow the LTA up. And, after stalking him and me (unbeknownst to me) for 6 years, It did expose the LTA to me. I heard a quote on the tv show "Castle" that went like this:

No one ends an affair because they realize they are still in love. They end an affair because they are scared. Scared of taking it to the next level, scared of being found out, scared of ruining their life. ~ Rick Castle

This was my FWH. He didn't want the marriage to end, he just wanted extra on the side and felt he was entitled to it/It. My FWH feels I am better than It in every way and my FWH didn't have more "loving" or frequent sex with OW, although he did say it was passionate. I feel I am better than OW in every way even if FWH didn't feel that way. I know I am better than OW. I don't cheat on my spouse, my FWH can rely on me to be faithful. I don't stab my man in the back, he can rely on me to not do that. I am reliable and I am fucking proud I am. No one is going to make me feel like shit for having good qualities.

Why is it hard to accept that humans will seek the best, most valuable mate, that they can attain at the level of work they are willing to put in?

Hypergamy, both male and female, is real...some people manage it and know when to say when. Some people try to branch swing for life.

There are likely differences between what motivates a given person or persons...but that's a slightly different topic.

I did know of an older man who, when asked if he was divorcing his WW, said "well...she does make good fried chicken"...

So, we all have our limits.

I don't know of any men in my circle, who would say "I married her because she is reliable".

Perhaps loyalty is one of those values that you don't appreciate until you are with someone that lacks it.

I don't know of any men in my circle, who would say "I married her because she is reliable".

But, they might say, she'd be a loyal wife and a great mom to our children, but not necessarily a woman who has the husband coming home for "lunch breaks". My wife's sister, had an affair for 10 years and left her son to be with her husband nearly every weekend during his childhood years from 5 to 15 years old.

She was not a good mom or wife and I could see it right away after meeting her. She simply didn't have the selflessness qualities to be a mother or the integrity or loyalty to be a wife.

She looked pretty sharp however walking on the arm of her AP through airports and expensive restaurants living the life as her AP's mistress. Her AP got the fun and her husband stayed home to raise her son and his STEPSON!!!!!! To this day, I find it had to greet her with smile, after 25 years of knowing her.

Additionally, I don't think we're talking about the start of the marriage, so much as what the marriage and/or husband/wife may morph into that sometimes makes them look less attractive, whether that's true or not.

The majority of women I dated before marriage were not marriage material. My parents were happily married so I was fortunate to see what a healthy 2-parent household looked like., as well as the qualities in a female that suggests potential long term partner and lover.

[This message edited by Jorge at 12:39 AM, May 7th (Tuesday)]

In the immediate aftermath I felt like this. I was a mess. My thinking was all over the place. I hadn’t processed what kind of person both my fwh and the AP were. Plus, there was still a lingering fog where fwh would talk about AP as though she were still his golden girl.

I felt boring by comparison, and that I’d only been chosen out of fear. It took a while but I realised what trash it had all been. They were trash people, setting other people’s lives on fire and calling it love. I’m not plan B. I never was. My fwh was an idiot, he didn’t see me for who I truly was, but most importantly I see who I am. It’s helped me overcome a lot of negative things. It’s easy to feel this way. I understand it. But don’t let them make you feel this way. Easier said than done I know!

I'm pretty sure I was plan B from the beginning. I didn't know it at the time, I was even making jokes about it (being sure, I wasn't - speaking of arrogance). Well, as a lifelong (30 years relationship) plan B I'm kind of a veteran/expert/old fool in this plan-B field.

He for me was always plan A+. I knew, he was IT for me. I really felt special being with him. And then he cheated, my world was destroyed, I had to face the reality, I'm just not that special to not be cheated on, if that makes sense.

My arrogance (and self confidence) gone, getting by, sometimes even content.

But sometimes I feel like an ATM.

I believe that for the most part, BW and BH feel the same post-DD, but I can't help but notice some slight differences in sentiment and wording. Some examples:

BW often say, "It was just sex," but BH never say that. Ever.

BW often say, "She was trying to steal my life," but BH never express that same feeling. They don't say, "He was trying to steal my life!"

BW often say, "He just used her! She didn't mean anything," and I've yet to read a BH comforted by the thought of "She just used him. He didn't mean anything."

BW often say, "I told him to go to her, go ahead and leave, but he stayed. She obviously meant nothing." I can't recall a BH sharing that same outlook.

BW often say, "She was nothing but a cumdumpster, a receptacle!" downplaying the OW's value in the sex. BH don't have any words about the OM that reduce his value in the sex. Just the opposite--they post that he must have had more to offer. (Plenty of BW post that the OW is younger or more attractive though. BW seem to be the ones with the ability to reframe it. "She was just a wet hole! She could have been anyone!" BH don't have that reframe angle.)

BW seem to value that their WH's want reconciliation. "She wanted my life, but she didn't get it!" BH struggle to value the fact that their WW didn't leave.

But, and it's a very big but, BW get more support as they attempt R here on SI, while BH may struggle in the above areas because so many BH who have divorced or struggled during R spend time and energy on SI pushing their own toxic beliefs onto the BH who are attempting R. It is so hard to watch. "She's going to do it again. Dude, you're plan B. Do you really want some man's sloppy seconds? She's using you. When are you going to man up?" It's awful. These poor BH who are struggling with the biggest crisis and turmoil they have ever faced, and they are repeatedly fed these ideas that they are Plan B over and over and over by, what I often feel, are jealous BH who wish they had been offered anything close to R or wish they had had a remorseful WW.

So do BH naturally and innately feel different than BW on this topic, or is there a culture of toxic masculinity infecting all those who might be able to see things differently and save their relationships????? Hmmmm. That I cannot say. And I guess we'll never know because many BH offering advice here confuse projection and indoctrination with support. Nonetheless, BW and BH do seem to post different thoughts and feelings in certain areas, even if they feel the same the other 85% of the time.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 5:03 AM, May 7th (Tuesday)]

There used to be a popular song in the 1950's, something like: "If you want to be happy for the rest of your life, make an ugly woman your wife. From my personal point of view, get an ugly girl to marry you."

BW often say, "She was trying to steal my life," but BH never express that same feeling. They don't say, "He was trying to steal my life!"

My WW’s AP was my best friend. He absolutely - and delusionally - plotted to step in to my role, or “steal my life.”

I think when my wife realized that, she knew nobody would accept that. Not our sons, not my family whom he knew well, no one. I think that was part of what killed the limerance.

I believe that for the most part, BW and BH feel the same post-DD, but I can't help but notice some slight differences in sentiment and wording. Some examples:

Good post.

But one big difference you missed:

No BW posts, “I wonder if the children are mine.”

This is the fundamental difference between male and female infidelity, and why, I believe, “toxic masculinity” makes some men unable to deal with that fundamental distrust.

No BW posts, “I wonder if the children are mine.”

A WW will ask, "is she pregnant"?

OIN,

I assume men and women will feel differently about this because fundamentally we see the world through a different lens, but that said, I can only speak for myself.

I would never see AP as trying to "steal my life" because he's only stealing a part of it. I still have my life and I'm still living it to this day. He stole something from me that turned out to be a terrible mess in the end. He can have it.

I would never think that she used him (beyond the fact that her MO in general is using people) because I plan for worst case scenario: she's leaving me for this fella and I have to start moving on. I also ABORE this notion that APs are either these Wicked Temptresses absconding with men or these Smooth Playboys luring away women. Our cheating spouses have AGENCY, they make their own damn choices to fuck around behind our backs.

If ex-POS decided to stay, I would never say the affair "didn't mean anything" because they *all* mean something. If your spouse is going to jeopardize your whole relationship over some sex or even just emotional foreplay, the AP means an awful lot to them in their mind. I would, however, value her move to R because I valued my marriage to her and loved her.

But I am not one of the men who think that AP must've been gangbusters in bed and in life. I'm confident that I'm a lot better in so many ways. She just happened to pull this while I was at a low point in life, and now I'm up again. Instead of waiting for me to right myself, or, GASP, being a supportive spouse to me in my time of need, she took the coward's way out. Or hell, maybe she was a serial cheating hobag the whole time. Either way, people like that aren't choosey with APs.

So this is why I personally wouldn't say half the stuff you cited as being typical of BW vs. BH. I know that there are other BW who feel similarly to me in those areas. I'm also saying this all from 8 months past DDay (feels like yesterday). The hard stuff is long behind me.

As far as telling BHs (or BWs for that matter, everyone gets the same advice) to drop the cheater, I only reserve it now for the ones who know it isn't going to work. Or, god forbid, the other ones who get abandoned for the AP. In that case, I tell them how lucky they are and give them the best damn RA RA speech I can. Wallowing in self pity is very easy to do in this case, I know personally, so it's paramount that the hard personal work never stops.

Irony, I found myself nodding affirmatively with OwningItNow's post until I came to these observations...

BH may struggle in the above areas because so many BH who have divorced or struggled during R spend time and energy on SI pushing their own toxic beliefs onto the BH

So do BH naturally and innately feel different than BW on this topic, or is there a culture of toxic masculinity infecting all those who might be able to see things differently and save their relationships?????

This is where the male-female discussion breaks down for me. I, as a man (and I'll say it that way as I don't want the generalization police to relegate me to the time-out box again; maybe they will anyway), find the language above contemptuous and superior. Its, as if, the gyno-centric view is the only right one, and that a man who innately feels otherwise is just plain wrong. Toxic? How about you come clean and concede that "masculinity," in your view, is what's toxic.

I fancied myself, through my sons' formative years with us, a contemporary, new-age family man who encouraged and insisted his wife be treated as my co-equal. I voted liberally and espoused enlightened inter-gender views. No more. We are different. I feel like I feel, and I'm watching my sons both gravitate in a masculine way as they raise their families in spite of how we raised them. Both hunt, and both have rejected their father's take on how to coexist with a wife. And good on them. And ironies of ironies, one of my two daughters-in-law actually came to me with "Daddyo, just want to thank for raising men." I know, I know, I just finished saying they weren't raised to be neanderthals. I'm guessing that despite propping my wife up as an equal, they discerned how their father "is." Fuck it, its all I got.

The point of this post is that men counseling men post Dday isn't so much projecting as it is an attempt to break through the pining fog. Another poster on a different threat said "Luckily, she demonstrated her untrustworthiness enough times for it to break through my cluelessness," and this so resonated with me. I submit that the men challenging other men are doing likewise, trying to break through the BH's cluelessness. Those men, unbeknownst to women reading the post, are "feeling" what the newly betrayed BH is feeling and doing them a solid.

I agree, I see "toxic masculinity" and it turns my stomach. Same way I'm sure a guy saying "it's 2019, we're equals, get over it" must stick in the craw of most women. It's an unproductive way of thinking.

Edit: And totally agree. I know my own post DDay fog and how I needed to be shaken out of it. This is just how men shake each other up. Why? Because it gets results. Kid gloves do not.

[This message edited by AbandonedGuy at 7:12 AM, May 7th (Tuesday)]

I saw M as a long-term commitment. I most certainly considered whether or not we'd stay interested in each other for 50 years (average life expectancy when we got married). I'm OK calling that 'marrying her for her reliability.'

My bet is that my W would not see that as being 'plan B.' I know she married me because she did see a long life together.

so if he found somebody that was equally smart as me and successful plus 30 years younger he might have stayed with them.

What kind of person would want to steal someone else's H who's 30 years older than she is? Honey, they always affair down.

[This message edited by sisoon at 8:37 AM, May 7th (Tuesday)]