SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Correlation Doesn’t Imply Causation

See? Now this I can get behind. There is almost certainly sometime some correlation between the state of the relationship and the likelihood of infidelity. Where these arguments lose me is here:

And burying my head in the “it wasn't my fault” sand will be counterproductive

(I added the bold)

Just because there may be correlation doesn’t make it my fault I am not willing to take responsibility for others actions. Ever. Maybe it’s a phrasing thing only and we agree more than we think but anytime I see the word fault in any way connected to me in regards to my wife’s affair I’m gonna have issue with that.

And I’m not one of these guys saying I was perfect and she still cheated.. I had a whole laundry list of imperfections and shortcomings. But then again so did she, and so does just about every-fucking-body. If we start using other people’s imperfections as some kind of rationalization for our shitty behavior, that’s a slope that isn’t just slippery, it’s fucking frictionless.

In our interactions with other human beings we have some rules that are supposed to be inviolate. Doesn’t always work that way but it’s supposed to. And if we can’t all agree to at least try to maintain those rules society will be pretty well fucked.

So:

No matter what you might say to me I’m not allowed to lay hands on you. I might but I will pay the consequences. Because we, as a society have decided that there is no excuse for violence.

No matter how horny I am and how many “subtle clues” I might be picking up, no still means no. And if I violate that I will face the consequences.

No matter how much I need the money or how big of an asshole somebody richer than I am might be I’m not allowed to steal from him. Them’s the rules.

And no matter how terrible a spouse I am you aren’t👏🏻 allowed to 👏🏻cheat on 👏🏻me. You are not allowed lie to me about the very fucking foundations of my life. And then tell me it’s even a little bit my fault.

If we, as a collective society, start down a road that even implies anything else we are opening the door to monsterous people to justify and rationalize almost any fucked up behavior.

Believe me, I’m an alcoholic, I know from justifications and rationalizations. I know how easy it is to find a reason why your fucked up behavior is everyone’s fault but your own. I am the welterweight champion of justification and rationalization.

Some places in life we, the collective we need to draw a bright line. This is one of those, in my opinion anyway.

Does that mean a BS shouldn’t look for ways to improve themselves and their relationship going forward? Of course fucking not. It just means that, just because they are in need of improvement themselves they aren’t fucking exempt from common human decency and dignity.

T/J:

Loukas, I am so sorry. Your story broke my heart.

End T/J

Well said, HT.

She was desperate for something that I wasn't providing to her.... I'm convinced that's what she was after in the A, and, if I'd given it to her, I'm pretty certain the A wouldn't have happened.

The anecdotal evidence is overwhelming that external validation doesn't satisfy the person who seeks it.

Although I'm quoting a specific post, I think it's important for all of us to remember that too strong a desire for external validation is probably problematic.

[This message edited by sisoon at 11:10 AM, May 10th (Friday)]

Correlation Doesn’t Imply Causation.

Agreed. Where you lose me is when you imply correlation = prevention. For the 2 years I had hoped my ex and I were trying to reconcile, I assumed the same. That was another one of those lessons learned the hard way.

To the ladies who responded to my post, thank you. I imagine you know your sympathies weren’t my intentions, but thank you all the same.

I know I wasn't the "best I could be" for my WW before the A. I could have done better/more.

I would say neither me or my WS were the best we could be. He was the one to step out first.

I was raising 2 kids practically by myself, my WS was never home, and I also worked full time. Did I have a lot of resentment for not receiving help? You bet. Did it affect the sex life? You bet. We still averaged 2-3x a week while he complained day in and day out of it not being enough.

We both could have done better/more, but since one steps out to have the A without letting the other know... all bets are off. There just isn't any justification for it.

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 11:30 AM, May 10th (Friday)]

I look at the posters who did everything and were "perfect spouses" with a measure of both jealousy and also, if I'm honest, skepticism.

I was not a perfect spouse, nor was our marriage perfect. I knew we had issues. We were arguing a lot, those arguments would get heated. At one point, our daughter stated, "Ugh, you are arguing again?" We would sit down and talk and share our issues. I would listen and there were things I took a lot of issue with and same on his side.

The thing is, I would give in. I would take one for the team. Then, we were back to good again for awhile. We would go on amazing vacations and dates and have friends over and dote on our kids, and then BAM, he would get mad about something, again.

Not only was I feeling not heard, but I was being given very little attention in bed. I explained to him all of my issues, what I needed, where my brain was at, the struggles I was having. He would take it all personally, when what I needed from him the most was to help me figure out what the hell was wrong with me. He abandoned me, so I abandoned him for lovemaking.

We were in a vicious, never ending circle. Sure, I could have made other choices like force MC or something, but we would talk and I would think that he finally understood. I remember with perfect clarity, several times after our talks, that I would be in the shower and say to myself, "Today is a new day, we are going to be good from here on out. I will do everything he asks, I won't make him upset, we will get through this." This was because I loved him and cherished our marriage and everything that we had built.

I kept falling on that sword. I wanted to be happy just as much as he wanted to be happy. But I was the only one really trying. Over and over, he refused to see my efforts. You know why? Because he was selfish.

He pretended like he was trying, like he was doing the work on himself, but he wasn't. He was still behaving like a toddler that wasn't getting his way while putting on this façade of being the most amazing father and husband. But inside, he was still angry, because of the resulting issues in bed, I'm sure, because that was all he thought about. He never thought about my needs and even though I was telling him why I was struggling and what I needed, he blew me off. Everything was always projected back to me and how I didn't do what he asked. What was left for me to grasp onto? NOTHING.

He put his dick before my feelings, my concerns, our marriage. I was actually sexually assaulted by the very gyno that delivered my kids and I DIDN'T TELL HIM. Why? Because we had enough going on and I thought to myself that I just wouldn't go back to that Dr. and would deal with it myself.

So, my point is, I had every single reason to cheat, but I didn't. Talk about motivation, I had it. But, I controlled myself. I knew what was right and what was wrong. I did not act selfishly.

My guess is that my marriage was nothing special, superior, or any different than most others on this forum. I honestly didn't think our marriage was so bad that it would fail like this. Even with everything that I shared, in my mind, I didn't think our marriage was in a state of dying. I knew marriages had rough times and good times and thought we were handling them and working through them.

We need to remind ourselves that we were in the same marriages as the WSs and we held ourselves together even when everything sucked.

My husband didn't "control" me from cheating, he was practically shoving me out the door. Where was his prevention plan? If we put blame on a shitty partner, then why didn't I cheat?

Because, I control me.

Listen: someone wants more money. Does that excuse, justify their robbing a bank and murdering someone in the process? Of course not, and nobody would suggest that.

But wanting more money IS the motivation.

Bezos isn't robbing banks; he has all the money he wants. But he cheated, because there was something else he didn't have enough of. Does that excuse his cheating? Of course not. But it was the motivation.

All of the betrayed who insist that denying sex, letting themselves go, nagging about chores, treating someone like a cumbucket or a walking wallet, etc. doesn't justify cheating are certainly correct.

But you ignore those motivations at your peril. Human beings are weak. If you treasure something, you better take very good care of it.

But how is society responsible for the desire that drives the motivation to seek more money if that desire is unreasonable? Marriage is about equitable sacrifice. If I want sex 2x a day and my spouse only wants it on average once or twice a week, so we have sex 3 or 4 times a week. I've being denied sex. So how is it my spouse's fault if I make the choice to step out to get more sex? Why does my spouse have to unilaterally sacrifice for me? I guess I would not treasure someone that only sees me as valuable as long as they are getting what they want.

There is a lot of conflation here. These are extreme examples that I do not believe represent the vast majority of cases. Every BS can improve in his/her contributions to the relationship. No one is perfect, and anyone that thinks that is probably doomed to fail in future relationships where infidelity is not present.

I could have done more, but how could I know whether or not that would have changed the outcome. I'm not omnipotent; I don't think that highly of myself. All I know is that unless WS 110% all the time and was a perfect partner 24/7, then I don't know how anyone could say any WS was blameless in his/her choice. Here's the thing, I have never met a perfect person yet.

Emergent8, your post on page 5 is probably the funniest thing I've ever read on SI.

Signed,

A New Fan

I was definitely not a perfect spouse. I was not even my best. Neither was my fch. He cheated. I didn't.

BTW, even if I were perfect, it would have been impossible for me to provide him with the things listed here. We lived apart for 6-12+ months at a time when he was deployed and once for a year while he was in work mandated school. That year is when he cheated. Nothing I could've done to stop it.

Infidelity happens in good marriages. Infidelity happens in bad marriages. It happens when people are in happy marriages and it happens in unhappy marriages. It happens when WS's love their BS's and it happens when a WS doesn't love their BS. It happens in marriages that are trudging along and neither one of you are nurturing the marital relationship. Or, when one is and one isn't. It happens in marriages where people are neither happy or unhappy. It's "meh!". It happens when two people start living parallel lives caught up in their own jobs/hobbies/friends/kids and not making each other their #1 priority.

It happens in all kinds of marriages. And, you know what all the shit is? It is called marriage. It isn't called infidelity. When we have issues in our marriage we have a responsibility to try to the best of our abilities to acknowledge issues and figure out solutions to our marriage problems. I am pretty sure most of the time that when two people rationally discussed their marital issues and came up with the solution it was not "Well, I guess fucking someone behind your back will solve this problem." It is, to me, simply absurd to say that because of whatever one spouse's was or wasn't doing motivated someone to get a different dick stuck in their vajayjay or to stick their dick in some new vajayjay.

"Motivations" translated from WS speak is rationalization and justification. I will tell you some of the motivations for WS's to cheat I have seen posted here:

1. the BS used FOUR different types of cheeses in her lasagna

2. the WS found dust bunnies under the furniture

3. the BS ironed the WS's shirts/clothes

4. the BS didn't iron the WS's shirts/clothes

If you are unhappy in your marriage or with your spouse the motivation needs to be to fix it. If it is determined to be unfixable you need to end it. With integrity. You have to deal with your problems and face the uncomfortable consequences that often come with dealing with an unhappy marriage. It is hard, it is work, it isn't fun, and it can be life changing in good and bad ways.

Even if your spouse is a POS, you don't get to fuck someone else and I will defend any POS that gets cheated on. EXCEPT for the fucking unremorseful, serial cheating, stalking, jr. bunny boiler cumdumpster that my FWH fucked. Hope It falls in love over and over and gets cheated on. every. fucking. time. Or, eaten by Its dogs works for me, too.

I will never let a BS tell themselves that they somehow made their WS go fuck someone else.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 11:32 PM, May 10th (Friday)]

Oh my! The “I want my hot wife back” comment and defense of it and “tighter vagina back” comment by HO really got me.

The guy felt his wife was not hot anymore after the birth of his child!!!!! Welll, if he doesn’t like her stretch marks that won’t be cured by exercise and her stretched out vagina, I guess he is going to go cheat! What about the wife who loses her breasts to breast cancer???? If her husband is a boob man, does he get to cheat so he can have some boobs? Where is the real love?

I didn’t meet my husband’s needs because he was being an assholle and he didn’t feel loved, so he cheated! I didn’t feel loved but I didn’t cheat. My needs weren’t being met and they aren’t being met to this day. I’m tired. Divorce is expensive and messy. Maybe I should just cheat....

But, really, wives aren’t hot after becoming mothers? That’s like saying that our husbands are no longer hot because they are losing their hair so their wives should look for younger men.

These people chose to cheat. They could have chose to talk to us and put in the work and given us the opportunity to work on any issues they had with us. We could have chosen better spouses who would not have cheated given the same circumstances. RIO could have had a spouse who didn’t need those words or one who needed them but was adult enough and loved him enough not to cheat. That is what it all boils down to. You do not and cannot cheat on and betray someone you love. How could you dare hurt the one you love like that? Why would you want anyone else if your spouse is the one you love?

There is a saying, “If you love two people, choose the second because you didn’t really love the first to begin with.” If you did, you wouldn’t have been with the other to get to a point you loved that person. My WH says he loves me. He told me during the A when he was telling her he loved her. He said he only ever wantedcme. However, if that was true, he would not have had sex with her. He said he wanted it to end because she was starting to get possessive yet he took her on another trip and then bought her a ring after that.... When I confronted him, he ended it. I was not plan A. He liked having both. That was plan A for him. Why else buy her a ring she wanted if you were wanting to end it? She had concocted a story that her husband had left her and was divorcing her and she didn’t have a ring to wear anymore.... If you are trying to encourage her to work on her marriage because you want out, you don’t buy her a ring. No, clearly, he wanted to keep it up. He and I were working on our marriage and having lots of sex at that point. There was no need for her. I was giving him his words of affirmation he needed so much... Yet when we had conflict, he ran to her, “I love you so much baby!” He was like a child playing his parents. Which one was giving him more positive attention is the one he loved the most at the time. Ridiculous! I’m left not believing a word out of his mouth and realuze how fickle his feelings are. He wants to try but now it’s just not good enough for me. I realize he has never truly loved me because he doesn’t get love.

Her words were supposed to mean something? He knew she was cheating on her husband yet he believed how amazing he was coming from her???? The stuff they say is insane! She apparently made some comment about guys and he got upset she would think he was like other guys..... She knew he was cheating on his wife!!!! And this is what I am plan B to? Nope! I am just so done!

I don’t know if I am the HO you refer to but I want to be clear that I never said any of the things discussed above? Another poster with those initials?

OTF, I love how you pointed out that he should have been taking care of you and why didn’t you cheat. So true!

My marriage was a lot like that. I got to a point where I told him if he didn’t start working on our marriage then I was going to leave. He begged me to stay. Sex started up again but little did I know that he had just come home from being with her for the first time. Yuck!!!! I should have just left! The marriage was dead at that time.

When your marriage becomes a series of transactions, your marriage is fucked.

When one or both of you says, if you do this for me, I will do that for you, your screwed. Whether infidelity is involved or not, you are not part of a marriage anymore, it is a business relationship.

My fWW looked at every relationship as a transaction. I did not. But looking back, the A was no more than a transaction. He said she had nice tits, and showered her with nice words, she gave him a BJ. There was no emotion. The emotion was all fantasy, and mostly bullshit to keep the transactions exciting when they both knew it was just childish crap.

Here is the toughest part. If your marriage is transactional, then the person receiving the goods gets to value them. So even if you are doing the right things (or giving the right goods) the receiver, the WS gets to assign value. His empty words were more important than everything I did. I could not control that.

I get it, we all have emotional bank accounts, and when you are overdrawn with your spouse, you may want to make deposits to get the relationship in the black. But if that is all that your relationship is based on, your marriage is fucked, 'cause sometimes, you are going to be overdrawn, and sometimes you are going to have to give out emotional loans to your spouse, that's life.