SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I get what you're saying NeverHealed, I really do. I've accepted all the ways in which I was a less than ideal husband, throughout and toward the end. I can understand where she might have been frustrated with me. Some of those things were completely on me, and some were a result of how she acted throughout our relationship. I never got a *real* explanation for why she did what she did, so I had to dig deep and assign root causes on my own. A lot of those things I didn't like about myself I either fixed or am aware of to avoid in the future. So I'm at least on board with the sentiment that throughout this process, we should make sure we're vigilant that our own behaviors aren't going to lead us down paths where we repeat history--whether that's fixing our codependent tendencies, being better partners, being better people in general, finding more suitable mates, or whatever.

But here's the thing when it comes to infidelity: these people have other options than to cheat. The mature and respectful way to handle the failure of a marriage is to walk away from it. Nobody's forcing them to stick around while they monkeybranch to the next sucker. It's a perfectly reasonable and expected thing that sometimes two people just can't be together, but the leaving party has the responsibility to tie up this loose end, as is expected by both parties when signing those marriage documents, before starting their new life with the Second Suitor. Also, when they don't communicate their Great Unhappiness, we the BS have zero cause to course correct, so it's not like we're even given a chance to double our efforts and give this thing our best shot. Sometimes these assholes just give up and forget to tell us about it. I tried to foster a very open dialogue between us so that we could hash out whatever issues we had whenever we encountered them. She, unfortunately, was the type to suppress and silently resent.

And like the others defending themselves, I do feel like I brought a lot to the table. She just happened to seek out and find someone who had a couple things that I was missing at the time, and so she thought, "this'll work better for me" and jumped ship. And it's because of all of those things that I don't blame myself whatsoever for the cheating, because that's on her broken ass. The failure of the marriage though? Yeah, I definitely contributed to that. Hell, I think she and I *both* were idiots to stay together for so long. She needed someone to put her on a pedestal, and I needed someone with emotional maturity, and neither of us ever got that from the other. It took her getting a massive ego boost at work, both from I guess performance and definitely from some coworker hitting on her, to realize that she wanted to pursue being pedestaled and the selfish entitlement led her down a path that I'm 90% positive she had been down before. But this whole time, she knew where the door was.

Plus, like I've said in a different thread, I'd much rather know the devil I'm dealing with. If it takes a relationship stress-test to out someone's cheater tendencies, so be it. At least then I'd know. I can't live my life constantly eating shit from someone in the hopes that all those mouthfuls of muck are worth it if it means she's not going to cheat on me. If I treasure the relationship, I'll put in as much effort as I can to maintain it, and if it's not enough and it fails, that's life. But I expect her to end it with integrity and not like a selfish coward.

Listen: someone wants more money. Does that excuse, justify their robbing a bank and murdering someone in the process? Of course not, and nobody would suggest that.

Exactly. And the number of immensely rich people who rob banks is a number that either is, or is close enough to 0 that we just call it 0. We don't go any easier on people who kick in the door of a bank for money and wind up murdering someone than we do people who just wake up and murder someone for "no reason", but we also understand the bank robbers motivation much better than we understand the guy who wakes up, kills his family, and then goes off to work like nothing happened. Same crime, same punishment, very different levels of "understanding" as to why it happened and what motivated that individual to kill.

Correlation Doesn’t Imply Causation. That's a very important thing for people to understand. I should clarify, cheating is not caused by lack of sex/WOA/acts of service or any other love language being spoken poorly. But I'd bet my life that there's a significant correlation there. Correlation doesn't mean "all", there were a few posts after yours where people illustrated exactly that, there are people who really just do it for "no reason", the guy who wakes up, kills a few people, and then goes off to work, no provocation, no "reason", just does it. And there are men who cheat who are having sex 3X a day with their wives. And wives who cheat who have husbands who shower them with praise, gifts and love. There are people who cheat "just for the thrill of it". But I don't think we're having an intellectually honest discussion if we don't examine the more common reasons for cheating, or the more common factors in a M that "leads" someone to cheat, much as the lack of money "leads" someone to rob a bank.

I look at the posters who did everything and were "perfect spouses" with a measure of both jealousy and also, if I'm honest, skepticism. I'm jealous because I wish I could say that about myself, I wish I could look back on my M and say "You were a model spouse, she had no reason to look elsewhere". I can't; frankly, not hardly. I wasn't a model spouse. I'm still not, perhaps worse in some ways, because now I carry around tons of baggage, hurt and pain from what happened. But I KNOW I could have done more. I sucked at speaking her love language. Sucked badly, if I'm honest with myself, I was pulling up the rear in that particular aspect of the M. Now, this in NO WAY justifies what she did, but it does help explain what she did. It gives me some insight into why she was so weak for those words from another man, and why his bullshit was so effective on her. I honestly am not sure what I'd do if I felt like I was "as good as I could be" at speaking her LL and was still cheated on, that would be, in some ways, more hurtful because what do I do now? I was speaking her LL as hard as I could and she still cheated?

Yes, I have no doubt there are people who "give it their all" in the way their spouse wants/needs and still fail. But that wasn't me, and, if I look around at other cheaters I know, I don't think it was them either. It sounds like there are some people in this thread who have that situation, and, in many ways, I'd love to feel that way just to help me sleep at night. You did everything you could RIO, she's just a f**k up. Well, she may be a f**k up, no argument there, but the first part; I'd argue that until I'm blue in the face because I know I didn't do everything I could. I did more than most, and that SHOULD have been enough. I can totally get on board with that. But I could have done better. I ran a 6 minute mile, pretty good, but I was capable of a 5 minute mile, in fact, I'd run a 5 minute mile for other people in the past (showering them with praise and words to get them into bed).

The problem with putting the blame at the door of the spouse for not ‘treasuring’ their wayward enough is IMHO it prevents the CS from truly doing the work because they have a convenient get out clause and their BS is offering that to them on a plate.

I agree with this, and I think that's why people react so strongly to it. It's a very dangerous and slippery slope, and it's a very convenient "get out of WS hell" card. But it's also impossible, IMHO, not to examine the "role" the M had in an A and accurately describe the reasons for an A. The "role" of the M in the A could be "none". Your cheater could be the guy who wakes up and just goes on a killing spree, no provocation, reason, or motivation necessary. And I do believe I know people like this, the guys rushing the teller who already have millions in the bank just for the "rush". The money in the vault pales in comparison to the money they already have at home, and they still do it. But this cheater isn't what I typically see; it's far more the "down and out bum, nothing to lose" who's using a fake gun to try to hold up a neighborhood bodega. And yes, in these cases, it's almost always sex, it's the guy who opines to me over a drink that the last time he saw his wife naked was last year or the guy who doesn't think the "Bride smiling because that's the last time she'll ever give a BJ" isn't funny in the least because that's become his life. The wife's fault? Of course not, and who knows, all of these stories could be make believe and justifications, nobody will ever know by that guy and his wife. But that "rings true" to me, much like the bum holding up the bodega, it "makes sense". You have no money, you want money, the cash register has money, therefore.. Same punishment, that's not at all what I'm saying, same crime. Same pain for the bodega employee who had a gun in his face. One is NOT better than the other. But one is far more understandable, if Jeff Bezos gets caught today robbing a bank, I think most of us will spend a lot of time thinking "WTF", where when our local newspaper reports on another convenience store robbery by your local thugs, most of us will think "other day in paradise".

My wife was not Jeff Bezos. She was desperate for something that I wasn't providing to her. There's a multitude of reasons for this, but, suffice to say, I'm convinced that's what she was after in the A, and, if I'd given it to her, I'm pretty certain the A wouldn't have happened. I may be wrong, that I freely admit. But I don't want to be wrong; I want to "do better" in my M, have her do the same and wind up with both of us happier. Because if that's not the end goal of all this, well.. I'm wasting my and her time.

Guy gets married. Puts on 200 pounds. Spends all day on the couch drinking beer and watching whatever sports is on. Once in a while pulls out his dick and tells his wife to put it in her mouth, but don't block his view of the TV.

She’s a SAHM.

Should she cheat? No.

Is she going to cheat? First chance she gets, God help her.

Should BSs give their WSs a get-out-of-jail-free card. No.

But they shouldn’t give themselves one, either.

And for those of you assuring me that you did everything possible, I get that, maybe you did. Maybe there are spouses who are going to cheat, no matter what.

Maybe my wife was one of those. I don't know. That's what I'm trying to figure out. But if I wasn't giving her everything she needed, I want to fix that, if I can. And burying my head in the “it wasn't my fault” sand will be counterproductive.

And btw, I am not worried about my wife cheating again. I am worried that she doesn't love me, and is unhappy.

Listen: someone wants more money. Does that excuse, justify their robbing a bank and murdering someone in the process? Of course not, and nobody would suggest that.

Exactly. And the number of immensely rich people who rob banks is a number that either is, or is close enough to 0 that we just call it 0.

Rich people don’t have to rob banks because they own the banks, so they run them under and get bailed out. Or defraud the investors. Drain the pension funds. Lobby for massive tax breaks that benefit them.

My point being, sometimes people who appear to have everything are still selfish assholes who want more more more more more. They’re takers. My guess is your average cheater is more in line with the Ken Lays and Bernie Madoffs of the world than the guy who just needs some cash to feed his family.

So what you're saying is that guys need to make sure to shower their wives with affection, stay fit, give her whatever she wants.

And the woman....If he isn't horny he's hungry make him a sandwich.

That way they won't cheat. Geez if only I had known it was so easy to prevent....

I will NEVER take any responsibility for the actions of my selfish husband for his affairs. Ever. Not gonna happen. If he had a fuckibg problem with the marriage he could have opened his mouth and talked about it. Not dropped his pants and fucked every vagina he could find...

His motivation was selfishness. Having his cake and eating it too. Simple. And nothing to do with me. Period! FTS!

RIO, once again I'm trying to figure out your logic. You say that you pretty much ignored your WW's desire for words of affirmation because you personally found them meaningless at best and transactional at worst. But presumably, when you first met your WW, you saw her as a prospect before you saw her as a mate. Did you lavish those words at first, and then you stopped when you realized you actually meant them? Are they easier to say now that you know how important they are to her? Or do they still feel fake, even though the sentiment is genuine, but you do it to make her happy? In which case, why do you wonder so painfully if she's just bringing out the freak to make you happy? She plied OM with sex to get the words; there's no evidence that she enjoyed it with him more than you, just evidence that she was willing to do it to get those words by any means necessary. So if she's willing to get kinky to make you happy, and you're willing to give the words to make her happy, is that a bad thing? If it's bad in your eyes because you want her to want the sex for the sex, why shouldn't she be bothered that you don't want to say the words for the sake of the words?

I dunno, it sounds to me like you feel you learned some tools for maintaining your relationship and are willing to work with that, but you don't want to see the things you value as essentially the same kind of tool for her.

Maybe my wife was one of those. I don't know. That's what I'm trying to figure out. But if I wasn't giving her everything she needed, I want to fix that, if I can. And burying my head in the “it wasn't my fault” sand will be counterproductive.

It wasn't your (or my) fault. But that doesn't mean that it's entirely out of our control either. Let's use another analogy; lets say someone cuts you off in traffic and you have an accident. Your fault? Clearly, no. But, if you're not wearing a seatbelt your far more likely to be badly injured. You can put on the seatbelt, drive defensively, buy a safe car and stay off the roads really late at night and STILL get killed in an accident. But it's a whole lot less likely. And let's be clear, I don't think I was the worst H in the world. Not by a long shot. But could I (and do I now) do better? Yes, no doubt, I wasn't giving the road my full attention and my car had old tires on it. If I'd been paying attention and hadn't neglected the maintenance on my vehicle, the accident wouldn't have happened and I wouldn't be injured now.

Some people here were driving a Volvo, seatbelt on, bright/sunny day, new tires, paying attention and some asshole drove right into the side of them while they were sitting at a stop light. No possible way to avoid it other than stay off the road (don't get in a relationship), an unreasonable standard for most of us. Others neglected a few things that could have made our car safer and were injured. And others, like the example given above (the guy demanding a BJ but to make sure he can still see the TV) are driving around drunk, bald tires, no seatbelt and playing chicken with tractor trailers. But nobody, not even the guy exercising NO caution at all deserves to be cheated on anymore than anyone deserves to die in a car wreck. We pull out the hydraulic cutter and extract the drunken chicken player the same as we do everyone else. But we also know, "well, if you weren't such an idiot, we wouldn't be pulling glass out of your face right now".

I don't think I was anywhere near the drunk playing chicken. In fact, I think I was closer to the Volvo on the bright sunny day. But I was looking at my cell phone when someone cut me off. Yes, it was their fault, but yes, I could have avoided the accident if I hadn't been looking down. NO, I should not have to avoid accidents, but.. I do, we all do, people do stupid shit on a daily basis, and we have to be ready for it and react to protect ourselves and the things we love. That's how I feel, not like I'd completely missed the standard of care, I was doing "OK" to "good". Just not good enough; I know, for me personally, I could have done better. Just to reiterate, that's not the case for everyone, some people really do get in horrific accidents in the middle of the day in their ultra-safe car and wind up with horrific injuries. But you're a lot less likely to wind up injured at 2PM in your Volvo vs 2AM drunk, TXTing and playing chicken.

And btw, I am not worried about my wife cheating again. I am worried that she doesn't love me, and is unhappy.

Same here. I'm pretty sure my wife now sees what affairs are about, and that she was an unpaid prostitute to someone. Unless she's seeking sex, I doubt she'll ever do it again because she now knows there's nothing there for her. But the last sentence, could have written that myself; that's exactly what I worry about.

But if I wasn't giving her everything she needed, I want to fix that, if I can.

If your goal is R, this is a good thing to do. This is about the M, though, not the cheating. There is a 2nd part, or maybe a prelude, to the mantra that the BP is not responsible for the A. Maybe you've missed it. It says both partners are responsible for the state of the relationship.

So, you are partly responsible for the state of your M, but you are 0% responsible for your CW cheating. She had many choices. She chose wrong.

My sitch was like AG's. I knew our M was a mess. I tried everything I could to engage my fch and make things better. You know what I got from him? "I'm fine. Everything is fine. There's nothing wrong with me." All the while, he was building up resentments for things that he refused to tell me. How am I supposed to work with that? So, no, I am not at all responsible for his choices.

Did you lavish those words at first, and then you stopped when you realized you actually meant them?

Not really. I was "growing out" of my "lying to women days" when I met my W. I was pretty up front with her and didn't "game" the relationship much. Yes, I probably said it more in the beginning, but, it wasn't dramatic. I was trying to be more authentic, and to me, that meant not using "lines" and "compliments" to get the panties off.

Are they easier to say now that you know how important they are to her?

Yes. The funny part of this, I always would THINK those things "wow, you impress me" or "wow, you look pretty in that", but I'd never say them because, well, it felt inauthentic to me. Like I was trying to compel something from her (because I'd done so much of that in the past with other women). So, instead of saying it, I tried to show her; acts of service kind of stuff, sexually, making "bold moves" to show my commitment rather than say it. But, the funny part, it is and was ALWAYS much easier to say something rather than do it for me. Saying "I love you" is so much easier than actually getting married, for example. Or actually making a sacrifice for that person. So I've just tried to say more of it AND still do the things to back those words up. In the past, I just did the "things" and left it unsaid because I felt like the action spoke for itself.

Or do they still feel fake, even though the sentiment is genuine, but you do it to make her happy?

Well, see above first, I always thought those things about her. So it doesn't feel "fake", if anything, the negative feeling would be "manipulative". It feels like I'm blowing smoke up her ass to get something to me, even if I'm not. I'm sure this is from my past, words were a tool, a "pantie removal implement", so, using them on my W feels disingenuous sometimes, even when that's not my goal (or my only goal).

In which case, why do you wonder so painfully if she's just bringing out the freak to make you happy? She plied OM with sex to get the words; there's no evidence that she enjoyed it with him more than you, just evidence that she was willing to do it to get those words by any means necessary. So if she's willing to get kinky to make you happy, and you're willing to give the words to make her happy, is that a bad thing? If it's bad in your eyes because you want her to want the sex for the sex, why shouldn't she be bothered that you don't want to say the words for the sake of the words?

I dunno, it sounds to me like you feel you learned some tools for maintaining your relationship and are willing to work with that, but you don't want to see the things you value as essentially the same kind of tool for her.

I suspect she feels the same way, "he's just saying it". But, I can't argue with you, you're 100% on the money here. It's my problem, not hers, and I probably did it to myself from my time trading words/sex. I guess it's primarily the A that bothers me here, if she'd spontaneously come to me and said "I need more of this" and then, when providing that, the sex went into "freak mode", I probably wouldn't question it. It's just hard with the A added in and the "compelled" nature of her enhanced sexual menu.

Rio...Wanna talk vehicles. Sure ok.

So we had an amazing Dodge truck. My dream truck. We had that truck into the shop for maintenance and tune ups and all the stuff you do to maintain a vehicle.

And while those mechanics had it up on the hoist they didn't notice any problems. They fixed what needed fixing, test drove it and assured me the vehicle was safe to drive.

So then not long after we are all out on a family trip when the drive shaft snaps. There was a jolt, bang and boom! And that all within seconds. No prior warning of a problem.

But you'll still insist that it's somehow my fault right?

I picked a bad mechanic?

I hit a few bumps in the road?

I just should have known that the drive shaft would snap...Give me a break!

Marriage issues are not the same as cheating. Nothing in the marriage contributes to a person Choosing to go to someone else to fuck!

Loukas- I am so sorry to read your story. I believe you are right- when we all get lost in the generalities that’s when it gets ugly. The personal stories bring it all back down to where it needs to be. Thank you for taking the time, effort, and energy to relay that pain.

Never healed, you can’t give your wife everything she needs. When I first found out my husband cheated, I spent too much time looking for what I didn't do right. To expect a spouse to provide for all our needs is unrealistic. My wH’s cheating was a him problem, not a marriage problem.

I struggled a lot with feeling like Plan B. Actually, the AP was Plan B. Fortunately, WH has done lots of work on himself. Maybe he will cheat again. In any event, I am my own Plan A. Love yourself.

@RIO T/J

And the number of immensely rich people who rob banks is a number that either is, or is close enough to 0 that we just call it 0.

*cough* Bullshit. Does the name Madoff ring a bell? That is one off the top of my head, there are countless others. Some rich people are the biggest thieves around. Yeah, maybe they don't technically walk into a bank with a gun, but I will posit how the rich rob and steal is oftentimes, much, much worse. End T/J,

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 7:45 AM, May 10th (Friday)]

So then not long after we are all out on a family trip when the drive shaft snaps. There was a jolt, bang and boom! And that all within seconds. No prior warning of a problem.

But you'll still insist that it's somehow my fault right?

Absolutely not. If you read my post, I said that there are some "no fault" situations, just doesn't happen to be mine. To use your analogy, the mechanic told me "your driveshaft looks a little bent, but it'll probably be OK, however, if I were you, I'd change it". Still not your "fault" the shaft blew out, but actions you could have taken to prevent it. That's more my situation.

*cough* Bullshit. Does the name Madoff ring a bell? That is one off the top of my head, there are countless others. Some rich people are the biggest thieves around. Yeah, maybe they don't technically walk into a bank with a gun, but I will posit how the rich rob and steal is oftentimes, much, much worse. End T/J,

I'm NEVER going to argue that "rich people are more moral" as the reason they don't burst into the bank with a gun. Riches and morality seem inversely correlated, IMHO. But, the point stands, very few burst into the bank with a gun. They do rob the bank, but using a pen. To complete the analogy, people like that are more like the "cake eaters", they have all the money (sex) they could ever spend, but they still steal more. I'm not claiming these people don't exist, not at all. Just not my case, my wife was "poor" in an area she felt was important and she wanted (words). She wasn't the H having sex 2X a day who then goes out and sleeps with someone else; I DO NOT dispute these people exist, in fact, seems there are a lot of them from this thread. That's just not my personal situation.

Rio I really don't understand how your situation is any different than any other Be here?

As long as you accept any responsibility for anything that lead your wife to cheat you will never heal.

That choice was hers and hers alone. And the fact is no matter what, SHE could have chosen a different path. You didn't do or not do anything that made her spread her legs for another man.

Rio I really don't understand how your situation is any different than any other Be here?

A lot of posters jumped in on this conversation and said, in effect, "I was the best I could be". That's where we differ, I know I wasn't the "best I could be" for my WW before the A. I could have done better/more.

I don’t blame myself. I can say in the same breath things were not ideal before the A. Doesn’t mean she gets to go behind my back and fuck another dude. Send texts to him all day. Tell him she loves him. The crime in that circumstance doesn’t fit the punishment.

My wife was miserable but I didn’t make her that way. How was I supposed to know? It was business as usual. So she is unhappy, blaming me, and says not two words about it. Not my fault. I was not going to nice her into staying or not doing it again. Fuck that.

She has learned to speak up and is being responsible for what she wants. I am all for working towards a better relationship but you can’t control another person on what they decide to think or do. It’s futile. You will only lose track of what you want.

Ya well relationships are work. We are all human, thus imperfect. So you can't expect everything and everyone to be perfect all the time. Sure you could have done more. And she could have spoken up and talked to you about what she needed without fucking another man...

How the hell is fucking someone else going to address the issues in the marriage?

It doesn't. It just creates more problems.

So again I don't see how you could have stopped her.

This thread is all over the place. Now we are on to blaming the victim?

I think the marriage needs to be separated from the infidelity. Fix the infidelity first, and then, if it is possible and the healed spouses agree, then you can work on the marriage. No marriage is perfect, and there are always things we can do to improve ourselves and how we act in our marriage. However, the cheating is 100% on the unfaithful spouse. They decided to use an affair as a coping mechanism for whatever was ailing them, real or otherwise. Clean up your side of the street and we will see if R is in the cards...but I take 0% of the blame for my wife's cheating.