SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I often spend my commute to and from work listening to podcasts, and I've found one particular speaker who I can often feel understands the issues (he is a wayward over a decade out). He has put a few topics out there where I'm kind of like "that's a bit of a stretch" or "I'm not sure about that logic" and this last week he put out his response to the saying, "if you really loved me, you wouldn't have cheated."

It wasn't a long video, but in the end he said that he believed that yes, you can in fact love someone and cheat on them, and furthermore, you can love two people at once. He used the analogy that you can be unloving towards your children but still completely love them. He also likened this belief that if you love them, you won't cheat to a fairytale. He also ended with talking about humans being fallible.

I come from the side that says "when they cheated on you, the could not have loved you", maybe they loved me before, maybe they learned to love me again, but they couldn't have loved me during their affair.

I find a lot of faults in his logic, particularly the idea of unconditional love. I unconditionally love my children, there is nothing they could do where I would hate them. My wife has a special love, but it's not unconditional. It's a special love because it's a committed feeling that no other has ever had with me, but to be fair, her actions could change my feelings. So the analogy between children and spouses seems like a false equivalency. I'm also boggled with the idea that expecting my wife not to cheat is a "fairytale".

The vlogger sincerely seems to understand a lot of the pain and trauma caused, but this is the first out of the hundred or more that I've watched where I've said "wow, that's way the hell off". Maybe I'm wrong though, I've been struggling for the last week to see a way for this video to be true, but I simply cannot connect the dots as to how you can possibly love someone and by love, I mean, that special love, the one I thought she had for me (and I for her). I simply don't see how it's possible. I do think it's a lot more possible that WS are not comfortable enough to admit that they simply did not love their BS like they should.

What's your thoughts? I would love to hear what other BS think and what WS think as well.

A WS would weigh in better, but I personally don't think that what I consider to be "love" could possibly be felt while cheating, which is a complete disregard for your spouse's well-being. I consider love to be something which includes respect and thoughtfulness of this other person, both of which must fail in order to seek infidelity-type attention from an AP. I assume the love feeling a WS must feel, if they claim it to be felt during the affair, is more of a "we've shared a lot of life together and I have a certain fondness for you somewhere inside me" but I feel that's more a disposition to have toward a distant friend or a hamster than a lover.

I also agree that spousal love is conditional. People expect not to be abused, cheated on, talked down to, driven to financial ruin, etc. These are conditions. My mother? I have no doubt she'd love me even if I were the biggest POS on the planet.

Feeling love and doing love are too different things. Perhaps my H felt love for me during the affair but his actions said the opposite. My H also tried the “loving two people at once” bullshit. He actually compared my love of my three children to his loving two women at once. So I asked him if he’d be okay if I went out and found two men in addition to him to “love”. When he didn’t like that idea, it occurred to him how stupid his argument was.

For me, it is about how one defines "love"

Love is very subjective work. My very wise IC told us early on that love is a CHOICE and I thought she was insane.

But I have come to believe it is in fact a choice as is it a choice to cheat.

Now, can you "love" someone and cheat? Again, how does one define love?

Do I think my FWH loved me during his affair? Yes. But not in the way I needed or expected to be loved. He "loved" or "valued" me as a wife (?), mother, provider, caretaker, etc... but the bottom line on this is that he LOVED himself more.

He loved himself more than me, more than his family, more than anything. His desire trumped everything and at any cost. That was his choice to love himself more than anyone or anything else.

So yes one could say he "loved" me but not to my terms of love. He chose to look beyond me to someone else. He made choices that destroyed me as a human being. That is not MY definition or choice of love.

The bottom line for me is it is about compartmentalization. This world vs that world hoping they never have to intersect. Knowing the possibility of blowing up your "loved one" but rolling the dice anyway. LOVE and WANT for themselves come first.

So I think there can be love there but not true "I would do anything in the world not to hurt you love" - obviously.

A WS is a selfish human being. And that does not equate to my definition of true love.

A remorseful WS with perspective should/would of course paint this narrative of "I never stopped loving you" - self-preservation.

As my wife and I have revisited some things over the last month or so, she has come to the conclusion that the work she had previously done (pre-A) with her then IC led her to believe that we had no more relationship, thus she should mourn the loss of that relationship and move on to whatever made her happy.

In following that train of thought, one could come to the conclusion that she was given permission to stop loving me and to go do whatever she wanted without thought of the relational consequences. Thus, before she started her A (and during it), she did not have love for me. To her, I was no different than a roommate who paid the bills. There was a modicum of care, but there was not love.

I had the same reaction, morethanbroken. I think the bigger question like the others have stated here is 'what is love"? Not the Haddaway song, which is now in your head...

I think many of us here had what is referred to as the 'Love Chapter' read at our weddings. Love is patient, love is kind...etc. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. I think that love is action rather than a feeling. So did my fWW spouse show me love by having sex with someone else? Not possible.

Upon further review, I think the analysis shows that my wife didn't even love herself...and not understanding what love really is, I think she was incapable of loving me. She definitely didn't love any of her APs, they were all just using each other under the guise of 'wuv'.

So now she is choosing to love me rather than just have 'the feels'. Love is hard work, and choosing to love in this manner is selfless. Feelings come and go, but the action of love is the choice we all should make.

Thanks, stolen...now this is in my head...

You're welcome Cap. I'm here til Thursday...

I agree with sassylee. Feeling love and doing love are different. Yes, I absolutely believe one can love more than one person at once, even romantically. But I don’t believe for a minute that one of them won’t, by necessity, be getting the short end of the stick at any given time.

I know the podcast you’re talking about and as a bs it bothered me.

There is a false equivalency comparing the love for children with love for the spouse. If a parent were to treat their child in such a neglectful way, ignoring them, belittling them, emotionally abusing them, and in some cases risking their health and safety, the kids would be taken away from them. Acting like an arse towards kids sometimes is NOT EQUIVALENT.

My fwh didn’t love anyone during his A. He thought he loved ‘more than one person’. Now he’s looked hard at what love really means and realised he was wrong.

I usually enjoy these podcasts, but this one annoyed me. The comparison doesn’t work.

Yes, I absolutely believe one can love more than one person at once, even romantically. But I don’t believe for a minute that one of them won’t, by necessity, be getting the short end of the stick at any given time.

Well then you and I have completely different definitions of love.

[This message edited by GoldenR at 5:36 PM, May 9th (Thursday)]

I believe my WH had a strong attachment to me. Very strong. Love, though? I don't think so. He did not see me as a person or he could not have done a great many things he did once my newness wore off. I thought this man loved me so much it hurt when we got married, and yet he told me after DDay that he married me because it was what he felt he was supposed to do and so he wouldn't lose me. He had tears as he was saying his vows, and yet I think now that it was a romantic spectacle that got to him because he loves that stuff. I don't think it was about me. I think even that was about him. I never asked for marriage or had it as an expectation. I even suggested eloping to save money and he wanted the full on wedding, cake and all. I did that for him. And yet, if I am to believe him, it was to gain me as a possession.

Attachment can look and sound a lot like love. It's not the same thing.

Golden,

Perhaps we do. Again, I think love as a feeling and love as an action are very different. I think the action of love, which under my definition is treating with kindness, respect, honesty, communication, commitment, and selflessness, is what is generally expected from a spouse within our society, and I don’t believe it can be given to one’s spouse while also having an affair with another person.

This is what i know...

Feeling the way I do about my wife, there is no way I could ever feel that way about another person, at least not at the same time.

Furthermore, part of loving someone is never purposely doing anything that will hurt that person.

Giving someone you love the short end of the stick isn't love.

[This message edited by GoldenR at 6:10 PM, May 9th (Thursday)]

I'll add that i believe ppl in affairs either never loved their spouse or circumstances caused feelings to change. Furthermore i think that the shock that comes from the fallout of DDay can very well make the WS realize the person they truly should love has been their spouse all along

I don’t think so. But they’ll SAY they did love you.

Although there are a few who admit to not loving their partner anymore. That would be tough to hear but I’d rather have the truth.

Love is an action.

There is nothing loving about the actions of a WS during their affair.

Typically, the WS treats the BS like shit during the affair.

Gaslighting, verbal and emotional abuse.

Finding fault with everything the BS says,and does.

Vilifying the BS.

Lying to the BS.

Not doing their share around the house.

Taking time from their BS, and their kids,and spending it emailing,calling, texting,sexting, taking nude pics, and fucking the AP.

Exposing the BS to deadly STDs.

Exposing the family to a possible bunny boiler.

Missing important events so they can sneak off with their side piece.

There is no love in any of these actions.

They may say they love their BS. I dont believe it.

I'll answer this the same way I always do when this discussion inevitably comes back up.

Everyone has their own definition of love. I can say, without any doubt, that Xhole "loved" me during his 20+ years of LTAs. However, his definition of love is vastly different than mine. I even feel totally confident he could pass a polygraph asking if he loved me the entire time because, based on HIS definition, he truly did. He even continued to proclaim it to me after the D. He was not lying when he said it to me.

MY definition of love, however, includes 100% loyalty. Xhole's apparently doesn't. That's why he could comfortably step outside the marriage repeatedly, year after year. Therein lies the problem, and ultimate incompatibility.

My WS was not 'loving' me at all during his 3 year LTA. He watched me attempt suicide and mental health decline and he still carried on the A.

So no I don't believe this is possible.

Depends on what he means by love. Because we often confuse love with cherish.

Assuming he meant the "cherish" category, that is total bs. There is some feeling to cherish a person who has lived under the same roof inside of the "inner circle" for many years. The love from familiarity. Even if I sold a house that I lived in for many years, I'd still hate to see it burn down in a fire. That is part of the reason why they keep the A a secret or trickle truth once discovered (besides also trying to cover their ass). It will take a complete sociopath to not have a feeling to at least slightly cherish a person they have lived with for many years - even if in their rewritten marital history the BS has been vilified. And if the BS has not been vilified in the rewritten history part, then this feeling to cherish is higher. But is it high enough to NOT cheat?

Cap'n

without thought of the relational consequences. Thus, before she started her A (and during it), she did not have love for me. To her, I was no different than a roommate who paid the bills. There was a modicum of care, but there was not love.

Curiously, she decided to not leave you right after D-day. How does your wife reconcile her actions post D-day with her intentions prior to D-day?