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RIO, if the next guy I have a relationship with is anything like these guys you work with, I am going to prison for a very gruesome and calculated murder.

LOL. :) Can't say I blame you. These guys are easy to avoid, however, the problem is, they are also the guys who many women are attracted to. Part of the issue is "too many options", IMHO.

However, I'm curious, what is it that you find so offensive about their behavior in this case? The fact they still "love" their wives? The way they treat/talk about their AP's? The way they are calculating and "mission focused"? IDK, as much as I hate what they do (now, after the A, as I've admitted before, I didn't think is was "that wrong" before I was on the receiving end), I understand it and appreciate their "honesty". I'd much rather they tell me the truth than lie, that's without question. And today, I just avoid it all together, I don't want to know the truth and I don't enjoy hearing lies, so.. I'll just dip out of the nightly drinks/bravado sessions and keep to myself, thank you very much.

Frankly, to me, what my WW did was worse. Because she did all the sh*t that the male cheaters I know IRL did, AND she was ready to divorce me and tear my life apart for the "love" that she thought was there. If she'd just been looking for some "D on the side", while I'd probably divorce her (because that's just way too dangerous, IMHO), I feel like I'd feel a little less "discarded" than I do at the conclusion of a "star crossed lovers" affair. She just likes to have sex with lots of men, no, not wife material for me, but not as personal to me as the "destroy the marriage and replace my H" affair that she did have. I know that's contradictory, I'd D her for the "less severe" affair in my eyes; but not because it would hurt more; because I'd feel like it was a constant threat (which, I suspect, is how a lot of BW's feel when their husband does this). All it takes is the right level of horny and the right pickup line and..

Frankly, to me, what my WW did was worse. Because she did all the sh*t that the male cheaters I know IRL did, AND she was ready to divorce me and tear my life apart for the "love" that she thought was there. If she'd just been looking for some "D on the side", while I'd probably divorce her (because that's just way too dangerous, IMHO), I feel like I'd feel a little less "discarded" than I do at the conclusion of a "star crossed lovers" affair. She just likes to have sex with lots of men, no, not wife material for me, but not as personal to me as the "destroy the marriage and replace my H" affair that she did have. I know that's contradictory, I'd D her for the "less severe" affair in my eyes; but not because it would hurt more; because I'd feel like it was a constant threat (which, I suspect, is how a lot of BW's feel when their husband does this). All it takes is the right level of horny and the right pickup line and..

I think you contradict yourself here.

You would not want to be married to her, she is not wife material if she is just out to get more D. That to me sounds equally as bad as "she wanted to leave me because you were keeping her from her dreams." Either way she is an unacceptable wife.

When a BW hears "all he wanted was more sex", then that completely minimizes her role as the woman in his life. It abuses her trust and love. Many, many BW's on here say they even had an active and happy sex life -- it just says to them they are married to a selfish pig that they may never be enough for. That's not less dehumanizing than "my wife wanted to leave me."

Look, I had an exit affair too. Much like your wife I blamed my husband for my unhappiness or lack of fulfillment. In the aftermath, I can clearly see that was distorted thinking. That if I had in fact gone through with the exit I would have missed many years of happiness with the most wonderful man that God could have possibly blessed me with. I dehumanized him, took him for granted, stomped on his heart and his trust. It's truly, truly, the most horrible thing I could have done to him...and myself.

But, it would not have been less of an abhorrent act if I was willing to throw away decades of marriage to get "some strange". I think it serves you better to not compare it. The grass is not greener in either pasture. In both cases, the BS is left to wonder how they can know if their partner is safe. In both cases, the WS has to get to why they thought this was an okay thing to do despite their motivation.

However, I'm curious, what is it that you find so offensive about their behavior in this case? The fact they still "love" their wives? The way they treat/talk about their AP's? The way they are calculating and "mission focused"? IDK, as much as I hate what they do (now, after the A, as I've admitted before, I didn't think is was "that wrong" before I was on the receiving end), I understand it and appreciate their "honesty". I'd much rather they tell me the truth than lie, that's without question. And today, I just avoid it all together, I don't want to know the truth and I don't enjoy hearing lies, so.. I'll just dip out of the nightly drinks/bravado sessions and keep to myself, thank you very much.

Oh that's an easy one to answer. I have a special hatred of men who pull the Madonna/whore complex. Wife at home to be cherished at least on the surface and whores for the sex they actually want to have. My sex life with my WH was much more adventurous before he decided he wanted to marry me. I cannot tell you how many times I tried to broaden our sex life back up with him afterwards and wound up with "I guess this is just what I like" vanilla sex, which I could compromise on because I loved him. What I didn't know was that he was seeking out the freaky trashy stuff with prostitutes. I WANTED THAT. That was mine. I was reduced to being rejected and having the same kind of sex when we did have sex while he transferred his sexual energy outside the marriage. This is an absolute crime. This to me was worse than if he had fallen in love with someone else. This was misogynistic bullshit and placing me in the role of his mother to do the laundry. He had me available for sex and decided my place was better suited as his emotional support and person who did dishes and took care of the kids. He could not have insulted me more greatly or screwed with my self-image in a worse way. The insult on top of the betrayal was too damned much. Too much.

How many of these men's wives are sitting at home BORED as fuck with the pitifully unimaginative sex that they're getting from their husbands while these men are out hooking up and getting their freak on with random women? Bet there are more than a few.

It was worse than him not loving me anymore. He took my humanity away when he discarded me like that. Made me an object and not the person I thought I was to him. That's what those men are doing when they claim to love their wives and sleep around so proudly.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 10:17 AM, May 30th (Thursday)]

I have a special hatred of men who pull the Madonna/whore complex.

Well, I think we have a common enemy here, just with the sexes reversed. I have a special place in my heart for women who do the same, prude at home, then have an A and go all "porn star". Same problem, different sexes. And for all I know, perhaps these men aren't having freaky sex at home (which they all claim to be the case) because they don't want it with their wives, that's 100% possible. They do blame their wives, she won't do XYZ is a common refrain (and, in my case, it was true, so when I hear that I nod; it sounds "real" to me, much the same way what you said, if repeated by a WW, would sound real to you), but who knows if that's true or not.

Honestly, as I read it again, I could have written your post word for word. That was me and she was your WH. I'm sorry, I know how much it hurts because it's exactly the situation I'm in.

I think it serves you better to not compare it.

In general, I agree with you. But speaking for myself and my specific situation, there are clearly comparisons that can be drawn. Some things would hurt more, some less, for me. Some things that my WW did wouldn't bother you much and eat my alive. Other things she did would make your stomach turn and hardly caused a grimace from me. While I agree with the consensus that, in general, we can't compare pain from BS to BS, we can certainly compare pain hypothetically for us an individuals. And imagining some situations causes me more pain, imagining others (most) situations causes me less pain. My WW, like many WS's, really hit "all the buttons" on the pain index for me, a wildly sexual affair, things on offer to the AP actively denied to me, locations of the acts.. No need to go on, but she basically ticked all the "fuck you RIO" boxes. She ticked a lot of other boxes too, some that would hurt you badly, others that wouldn't phase you. No, you can't compare my pain to another's, but, I can state with pretty certain authority that if my WW had only had an EA, it would have caused ME a lot less pain than what she did. And if she'd done other things, it would have caused me more pain. There's no "universal pain scale" for an A, but, IMHO, we all have an internal "personal pain scale" that we can use to evaluate the bad/worse/unacceptable from the affair.

But, it would not have been less of an abhorrent act if I was willing to throw away decades of marriage to get "some strange"

And, with what I said above taken into account, it would have been "less abhorrent" for me. Because I would have understood it and accepted it quickly, that's why I'd have an A, that's why the guys I know have A's.. So, it all makes sense, you robbed the bank because you wanted money. Now here are the D papers. Because, IMHO, I'd never feel safe again with her if this was her reason; "strange" is too easy to find for her, she has a line of 100 guys ready to provide it. All it takes is one slip up and it's right there. Like an alcoholic keeping a fridge full of beer and vodka, it's just too accessible, too "in your face" and I couldn't feel safe with my WW if she cheated for this reason. Yes, I'd understand it more, and yes, I feel like I'd hurt less because, trust me, I know that feeling of wanting to sleep with other people. But I'd still D. I guess the analogy I'd draw, imagining your husband cheated for sex and also happened to work as a bouncer every night in a strip club or brothel. Effectively, free/easy sex on offer from all kinds of different/attractive/exotic women every single day. Could you feel safe like that? I know I couldn't, but, thing is, if anything, my wife has more sexual access to different men than our hypothetical bouncer. All she has to do is ask and she'd have 50 guys lined up. The world is her "brothel", as it is for most women. Which is why I'd never be able to have anything like a "safe" feeling if that were the situation. It's also why I feel terrible for some BW's who are in exactly that situation (married to men with lots of "sexual access" to willing women who cheated), I feel just as worried for them as I would if I were in that situation.

And, with what I said above taken into account, it would have been "less abhorrent" for me. Because I would have understood it and accepted it quickly, that's why I'd have an A, that's why the guys I know have A's..

I think the thing you are missing is, your posts come off as "because I agree with the motivation I can understand it". And, I do think that's exactly what you are saying. But, to the BW's on this site, it's almost like "Well, I understand why he did it". And, you can't see that is an insensitive way to look at it. Dee isn't the only woman who comes here and says "I would have or was rocking his world".

It all comes down to the thing I have said to you 100's of times. Motivation has nothing to do with the whys. The BW's are married to people who are just as broken/flawed/possessing major character deficits as the women who are married to the BH's, and just because you understand their motivation doesn't make that less true.

I understand why you say "It would have been better this way" because that's a bargaining stage of grief. But, the reality of it is, what you are saying is "If my wife had an affair for more D, I would have gotten a divorce and that would have been more palatable". But, because she didn't want more D, you are trying to R, but you find her motivation of the affair to be less palatable. It's confusing. I bring it up because I feel like you are still doing mental gymnastics here.

Honestly, as I read it again, I could have written your post word for word. That was me and she was your WH. I'm sorry, I know how much it hurts because it's exactly the situation I'm in

You have my complete sympathy as well. It is a twisted knife in the heart and soul.

And, with what I said above taken into account, it would have been "less abhorrent" for me. Because I would have understood it and accepted it quickly, that's why I'd have an A, that's why the guys I know have A's.. So, it all makes sense, you robbed the bank because you wanted money. Now here are the D papers. Because, IMHO, I'd never feel safe again with her if this was her reason; "strange" is too easy to find for her, she has a line of 100 guys ready to provide it.

That's why I would have had an A, and I've never had trouble understanding wanting sex from different people. That's pretty normal. Understanding the motivation wouldn't have helped your soul, I don't think. I get my WH wanting to have sex with other women, sure. I even get him wanting to have sex with women hotter than I am. He had to pay for it and after I left him I got sex with a guy much younger, hotter, and more muscular than him for free and enthusiastically, but sure, I get it. We're sexual beings. What killed me about it being for just sex is that he was willing to toss me away for nothing at all. I was not more important than his desire to have sex with other women even to the point of paying for it. Had he fallen in "love", though I know it would have come with equal other kinds of pain that I can't imagine now, I tell myself that at least that would have been "something". It's not that sex is "nothing" and love is "something", it's just that sex is so easy to find and love is so rare. Female perspective here, I'll grant you.

I think the thing you are missing is, your posts come off as "because I agree with the motivation I can understand it". And, I do think that's exactly what you are saying. But, to the BW's on this site, it's almost like "Well, I understand why he did it". And, you can't see that is an insensitive way to look at it.

Yes, that's what I'm saying; in so many words. I do understand it, even if I think it's just as bad, or perhaps worse than my WW's motivations, I do understand the "why" for my cheating cohorts.

Let me draw a quick analogy. Gang A and B are in a turf war. Gang A loads up a car and goes and shoots up and kills members of gang B. 5 people are killed between the 2 gangs. Other people are hurt from stray gunfire. But, I understand the "why" there; they shot up gang B because they wanted that "corner". Or gang B shot at them first. Or someone slept with someone's girl. There's a reason that happened, even if it's a stupid ass reason, there's still a reason.

Second situation, a guy climbs up some tower and start shooting random people. 5 people killed, lots of other people injured. Now this one, I have a lot more trouble with. Yes, there's still a reason (mental illness, anger, etc), but that reason is in no way coupled to the people who were killed/injured. Killing those people wasn't going to make anything better, and it wasn't going to secure anything (your corner) other than a spot in jail. It's irrational behavior at it's most horrific; "senseless violence" in the most pure interpretation of the word.

Same crime, one for an understandable reason, one for a "loony bin" reason. And yes, I feel like most of the cheating men I know fall into the "understandable reason" and my WW falls into the "loony bin" reason. It doesn't mean that I don't think they should be punished equally, and it doesn't mean that I find one crime "better" than the other. It just means I understand the gang bangers shooting up the corner much better than I understand the guy shooting at people he doesn't know. And I think that we all feel that way, crimes that have "no reason" offend us a lot more than those that are "crimes of necessity". We typically punish both the same, but we understand the 2nd a lot better than the first because we all, like it or not, have those instincts and motivations at times. I still, to this day, think back on 9/11 and think "what the f**k was wrong with those people, how could they (the hijackers) be so delusional" where the latest gang killing in Chicago doesn't even raise an eyebrow, I know why they are doing it. Doesn't mean I don't want to see them put in jail for the rest of their lives, I do, badly. But I understand the "why".

Well RIO -

I guess in one scenario - the one where you say the man is on the mission for sex, it's a premeditated crime. Whether it's by a woman or man, someone went out and looked for sex.

In the other scenario, where it's your wife, she was somewhere having a hard time, she is feeling isolated because of what she is going through, and the OM starts paying attention to her. She likes it, she begins to look forward to it, and it relieves her of pain. So, she keeps that going. There is lack of premeditation, and maybe even lack of initial motivation. Motivation is "I am seeking something out". The motivation might have gone from "He made me feel better, I want to feel that way again" to "I love him". But, I guarantee she didn't say to herself "I am going to have an affair to find love with someone".

I think you know that part. But, you keep stating it like "it's a looneybin reason she went looking for X", that's really not what happened. It was more, she wasn't managing her life correctly and she made terrible decisions due to that.

But you keep comparing premeditated to not premeditated.

I am not justifying it, I know you know better than that. But, turning it around to me....I am not a looney bin person. I should have made different choices. I should have gone to my husband and told him the problems I was having. If I had, I would have seen the flaws in my own logic and maybe have seen I was pinning a lot on him that belonged to me. We would have worked through it. But, nope I took a cowards route and just tried to escape the whole thing rather than dealing with it. And so did your wife.

The men you know, the ones who were motivated enough to premeditate it - to keep cycling through the no's until they got yeses. They also made bad decisions based on bad character defects. They had better options and choices.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:49 PM, May 30th (Thursday)]

I'm not totally sure where I fall on this one. Did my husband love me during the A? He says he did. At the time, I felt like he did. I believe he believes he did. In having the A, he certainly wasn't acting that way, though. He says he had all sorts of self-imposed rules in order to 'protect' me and our relationship. For example, he avoided speaking about me or our relationship (other than for the purposes of scheduling) with AP. She tried (gently) to ask, but it made him feel guilty to cross *this* boundary . Was this really for my benefit? Hell no - these were just things that enabled him to compartmentalize his double life and to prevent the guilt from eating away at him. At the end of the day it doesn't matter, I don't think love is enough for me to stick around, I also need respect.

RIO - your logic is all over the place. You say what your wife did to you is more hurtful but a sex-only affair would be a dealbreaker.

You say you're savage on WH's but you apparently regularly spend time with them and discuss their sketchy personal lives. You take WH's word for it that their affairs occur for "understandable reasons" (FYI - this sounds a lot like 'justifiable reasons' ) but do not take your wife's word for it when she says she felt like she was "in love".

Here's what it sounds like to an outsider: I believe men but I don't believe women. I also think men should be punished harder and women are loony-bin innocents who get taken advantage of by tail-chasing men.

In many ways, I believe you might think my cake-eating WH would fit your black/white prototype of "the typical" male wayward. His A was mainly physical and he never wanted to leave me. You 'understand' my WH, but think he is fundamentally different than your WW. Your posts are frustrating to me though, because I think you're missing the mark and that your thinking on it oversimplifies things.

In reality, my WH cheated because he was feeling shitty about himself and he liked the way his AP's attention made him feel. He never trolled for sex, but had always had shitty boundaries with women that he had always previously justified on the basis that he would never cross *that* line, until he did cross that line when his AP said the right words at a time he was particularly vulnerable. After that line was crossed once, it became easier and easier to keep crossing it. He justified his actions to himself by ignoring my good qualities and becoming resentful of my bad ones. Sound familiar?

The most important work for a BS is to stop asking this question. It is needy and codependent in the face of the facts of the marriage, so even asking this question and wanting an answer is a desperate attempt to make the unacceptable acceptable. Instead, a BS needs to stop needing the love of their WS and build themselves up tall and strong, build the sense of self so high through self love, IC, hobbies, career, family, detaching, meditation, independence, self-help books that no matter what the WS does or does not do in the future, you know your capabilities and are confident in the life you can and will lead if they wrong you again.

You do not find the safety you seek in asking this question; instead, you find the safety in not caring about the answer either way, instead focusing on the actions your WS is taking to fix things and fix themselves. Now. In the present.

Get your focus off of the WS and how they do or do not feel. Hasn't there already been enough focus on them in the R? Find yourself.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 2:03 PM, May 30th (Thursday)]

I will say this once again. The guys you know RIO are "manly douche" guys. They have affairs for side sex. What you don't know and they will not admit to you "because they are manly guys" is that it isn't about the sex. I will bet it is about the ego kibbles that come with the sex. It is about the attention. It is about the validation of being able to still get some object girl. If they got their freak on with their wives, they would still have affairs because they need the outside validation and attention from multiple people. Including their "guy" friends that talk like no guys I know about their sexual conquests. You feed their egos by listening to that shit. As most know I had my affair for attention. Sex would have been great. Who the Hell doesn't want more sex. Sex isn't the driving factor. It is just the commodity exchanged for the attention/validation/ego kibble. IMO all cheaters treat people as objects. We take away the respect they deserve and we take away the humanity. For our BS and for the APs. Though the latter brings it upon themselves by being coconspirators. The only difference I really see is that you know and live with a community of people that really air that it is a fundamental entitlement that everyone should be fucking each other over.

[This message edited by Zugzwang at 2:04 PM, May 30th (Thursday)]

Nailed it Zug. Exactly what I was trying to say but far more succinct.

Sex isn't the driving factor.

Oh, I think for some of each gender, it very much is.

You say even if they were getting their freak on with their wives they’d still cheat. And maybe so. But I think a lot of guys, AND gals, are NOT getting their freak on with their spouse, and not by choice. I’m sure it’s a hell of a lot easier to pick up some random horny guy/girl for sex, or to fall into temptation with someone you already know who you’re attracted to, than to have to have the same old emasculating/(female equivalent) conversation with your spouse, trying to convince them to loosen up in the bedroom or put out more. I’m not saying it’s right, but I’m agreeing with RIO that it does happen.

Sex isn't the driving factor.

Oh, I think for some of each gender, it very much is.

I agree (of course). But I also don't know why it's so difficult for others to believe that someone would cheat "just for sex". Ugh.. Sex is a FAR more potent motivator for me, and I suspect for many others than "You're so smart RIO" or "Can I come fix your sink RIO" or "Here's a new watch RIO". It's so much more powerful that I even have trouble making the comparison without some brain pain. And yet, many seem to insist "It's the kibbles", a motivator that to me personally, seems ridiculous compared to sex with someone new. Kibbles have almost no value at all to me, sex is high value, sex with someone new is VERY high value. Why is it that "the kibbles" are considered by so many to be more "the reason" than sex? I suspect it's primarily because they aren't motivated the same way I (or many men I know) are by sex, but, trust me, we exist (those of us who are highly motivated sexually) and, if my experience is anything to go on, there are a lot of us.

This kind of reminds me of conversations I've heard/read about how "no woman wants to be a prostitute". Well, really, are we sure about that? Sure, it's not a great job, but it pays very well, and, believe it or not, some women do enjoy sex with lots of different men. There must be something else, something wrong with her, something broken inside of her. We don't say the same thing about a guy who's an underground coal miner though, a job I'd care for a LOT less than being a prostitute. Or the garbage man. Or any other profession that involves terrible working conditions, far worse than those of your typical call girl. Sure, taken to the extreme, nobody wants to be a prostitute, just like almost nobody wants to go to work in any profession at all, we all just want to be rich and retired. :)

You say what your wife did to you is more hurtful but a sex-only affair would be a dealbreaker.

I think I explained it, but I'm not claiming this is logical, it's just my personal thoughts on it. A sex only affair from my W would be "too dangerous" to R from for me personally. Simply put, an A would have given her exactly what she wanted (sex) in massive quantities, in exciting situations, with someone new. She would have tasted the forbidden fruit and figured out "this tastes great". She'd be unsafe because logically she'd know "great sex is on offer in an A" and, if that was her motivation, that would be difficult to live with. Kind of like the reformed drug addict working in a pharmacy, the temptation is likely to be too great because, yes, the pharmacy does have all kinds of drugs in it, and yes, it's right there for the taking. I'm not claiming this is logical, I'm just saying how I feel on this particular issue. I'd understand it, yes, but I'd also consider her an unsafe partner moving forward (and honestly, if you must know, the men I know who do this would absolutely be "unsafe partners" in my eyes as well.. No double standard here, just applying the same criteria to both sexes).

You say you're savage on WH's but you apparently regularly spend time with them and discuss their sketchy personal lives. You take WH's word for it that their affairs occur for "understandable reasons" (FYI - this sounds a lot like 'justifiable reasons' ) but do not take your wife's word for it when she says she felt like she was "in love".

Not anymore I don't, at least not when I can avoid it (which is most of the time). I did, yes, before my W's A, spend time with those guys as part of my job.

No, understandable reasons are NOT the same as justifiable reasons. I can understand why 2 gangs start shooting at one another; it's stupid as hell, yes, but I understand their motivation. I do NOT say it's justified, NOT EVEN A LITTLE, but I do understand the thought process. The guy who just starts shooting into a crowd of people he doesn't know? That's not at all understandable to me and also, similarly unjustifiable.

Here's what it sounds like to an outsider: I believe men but I don't believe women. I also think men should be punished harder and women are loony-bin innocents who get taken advantage of by tail-chasing men.

I believe women who say they had an affair for "love". I just think it's a real stupid (for either sex) because that's not what affairs offer. I also believe people who have exit affairs, they are really looking to leave the M. Again, a real stupid reason to have an A, but I do believe that's their motivation. People who have A's for sex, well.. It's not a stupid reason to have an A. You rob banks because that's where the money is. "I want money" is not a stupid reason to kick in the door of a bank, even if kicking the door of the bank in is a REAL STUPID thing to do. The reasoning is sound, even if the actions are incredibly stupid/hurtful and massively damaging to other people. Just like the gangs shooting at one another, stupid as hell, people die, but the reason the shooting started makes sense.

And yes, if I'm honest, I do think that at least some, and, IMHO, many WW are "taken advantage of" by tail chasing men. But it's not because men are bad and women good, it's just that men are typically the pursuers in relationships, normal or affairs. And if your pursuing for an A, there's gonna be a LOT of lying involved, manipulation and misdirection, it's just part of the dance.

IMO all cheaters treat people as objects.

That extremely horrible, painful feeling of you didn't even exist. But, yes, he felt he still loved me.

This kind of reminds me of conversations I've heard/read about how "no woman wants to be a prostitute". Well, really, are we sure about that? Sure, it's not a great job, but it pays very well, and, believe it or not, some women do enjoy sex with lots of different men. There must be something else, something wrong with her, something broken inside of her.

Yeah, that only works as an argument if you're having lots of sex with hot guys. Most of your customers aren't likely to be men you actually want to have touching you. If the job description was "get paid to have sex with men you'd have sex with for free", sure. You aren't getting that, though.

Affairs out of "loooove" for the AP are knife twists. I can understand why some people think an EA is worse (I equate them both as terrible).

What a hard question to answer truthfully - if the shoes were reversed I would not for a second believe that he loved me one bit - after all the emotional abuse, manipulation, everything he has been through the past year, the things I did behind his back, the things I said to him, the way he was treated by me and how that must have made him feel - well I wouldn't believe he loved me for a second if he did any of that to me.

So no, the moment I went online and made those choices it was clear that my love for BS was fake, shallow and not unconditional - and I hate myself for it every day, can't fathom why he still wants to even try with me, he should 180.

Does this tie in with unconditional love? It's a massive topic in my mind since a poster in one of my threads mentioned it - do I love BS unconditionally? It's something I ask every day because I've come to realize that I don't understand unconditional love. All my actions demonstrated it.

My parents never showed it to me and it's a terrible excuse (no more playing the victim), trying to work on those issues but in all honesty, it's very hard for me to love myself unconditionally too, or even love myself in any authentic way, and if you can't love yourself how can you love someone else? Especially post A - my internal dialogue is so wrong and dark it's scary.

And most days I fear I am too damaged to be fixed, and then is it not selfish too keep BS on a thread with someone who is mentally just too far-gone? When he can do so much better. But giving up would be another example of how little he means, is he not worth the fight? To me he is, it's just hard coming to terms that the worst thing that's ever happened to him, and the sadness he has to carry on with forever - is from me. Because pre-A things weren't perfect, but for him they were - it blind sided him so hard, and that's not what you do to someone you love. He would never in a million years have done any of that to me - that's love.

If we could all agree that "sex" is not summed up only as the friction and release components, we might be able to make agreeing, or not, make more sense.

The friction and release of sex is only a part of "sex". Sex, when consensual, is always a transaction of multiple things. Friction is part, feel good is part, ego boost is part, fairytale dreams are a part, brain release of norepinephrine, serotonin, oxytocin are all parts of the sex, etc.

When someone says it was about the sex, it has to be acknowledged that there are parts of the sex that it is all about that are more important to one partner than the other. I think many limit the all about the sex meaning to the friction and release parts of sex, which may more often be associated with the men RIO knows. But if one of the partners keeps coming back for the feel good, the ego boost, the brain chemical high as a direct result of the sex but cares little about the friction and release, it is still valid to say it was mostly about the sex.

Sex is most often the delivery mechanism for multiple things one or the other craves. Without sex, most PA's would wither quick. It is almost always about the sex because of the great variation of "wants and needs" it provides both parties.

It can be "all about the sex" for both but not necessarily all about the friction and release for both.

The entity "sex" is much more complicated in what it feeds and satisfies than limiting it to just the parts that drive RIO's acquaintances.