SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Seriously, enough with this crap

WOW, and the REAL VE shows up.

He wouldn't request something so outlandish so it's not even an issue

Oh boy, are you in for a wake up call.

The BH you know now, this minute, might not, but something you have yet to realise is that this shit changes people. It sounds like your BH is still reeling from this, just wait until he has had time to process all that you did. Which, by the way will take months.....

Wait until the anger kicks in.....

Look I was just like your BH for probably the first 8 months after my DD. It was all MY fault, I drove her to it. Hell I spent hours talking to my WW PROVING that by doing this or not doing that, that I practically MADE her do it. I think most BH's are in this stage of the process for a few months, but it rarely lasts. What are you going to do if/when he changes? You have no idea of the level of anger he will get to. Everyone who knows me has always said that I am "MR Laid-Back", nothing ruffles me, I don't get wound up about anything, people would be surprised to see me "mildly annoyed".

BUT;

I had never before experienced the pure, cold-blooded, white-hot absolute FURY that I felt at around the 8-12 months after DD. I have two fist sized holes in the bedroom wall and one in the bathroom door to testify how I felt. especially when I realised that my WW had let me believe it was all my fault.

You have to understand that its not about your BH going all Stalin on your ass, but its about what you are prepared to do to show your BH where he stands in your life. As of right now, He knows, that he meant nothing to you, that he is completely worthless to you. You can bluff and bullshit all you want but by fucking another man you did the one thing that absolutely proved beyond any shadow of a doubt that he wasn't even worthy of thought.

At the moment your BH seems to rank below: You, the kids, the sister and the friend. Is that where you think a husband should be in the pecking order? How long do you think he will put up with that before he is irretrevably broken, or hopefully, leaves?

You say you love your Bh, that you always loved him. My wife said the same thing. I call bullshit. I'll ask you the same question that I asked my wife when she kept proclaiming " I've always loved you, I never stopped loving you", I wonder if you can answer it?

I said;

"Really, always? Never stopped? Even when you were snogging another man you loved me? Even when he had his tongue down the back of your throat and you were ripping your clothes off? Did you love me when you had another mans cock in your mouth, did you love me when his fingers were inside you, did you? Did you love me when you were moaning when he entered you? while you were both shagging like animals, even when you scratched his back in ecxtasy you loved me through all that? Even when you moaaned his name when you came, did you REALLY?"

Can you, VE, still say that you always loved your BH?......

VE,

From your first post:

In short I was feeling apathy and self-pity in a juvenile vicious cycle.

From your last post:

If he's looking to be the Josef Stalin of matrimony then it wouldn't be with me. Maybe we can even have show trials of all our friends and one by one he can find a way to completely isolate me. I used shoes to leave the house; enemy of the marriage. I can just stand barefoot in the attic never to be seen again.

Gently now, but it looks like there has been no progress on your thinking. You are still keeping yourself stuck in your juvenile vicious cycle.

If you want to remain in the M, then a drastic change in the approach to life is needed. You are still extremely self-absorbed, and cannot seem to get out of this spiral.

Yes, what you did was monstrous, but does that mean you don't do anything to try and repair some of the havoc you wreaked? Is your M worth the effort?

When we were 18, my H had a drunken grope on the couch with with his sister's best friend. It was a really bad choice, and it set off a cascade of poor decisions from both of us that profoundly damaged our relationship. However, she and SIL are still close over 30 years later. My MIL is still friendly with her, too. It literally never occurred to me to cut SIL out over this. My H subtly organizes things so that we don't have to see the AP, but if something were to come up, like my SIL's 50th birthday party, where we had to be around each other, I could manage it just fine for SIL's sake. I love SIL like my own sister and would never expect that my H's stupidity/impulsivity/selfishness means that the entire extended family dynamic now revolves around me.

That's my personal feeling about my personal situation. It is not a reflection of what anyone else wants or needs, or should want, or should need. VioletElle and her BH get to decide their values on this. It is not "obviously" or "absolutely" wrong for her to remain close with her sister or her best friend.

I do agree that if VE is incorrect and her BH does want to cut the sister out, she's at a crossroads where she'll have to decide whether her marriage is the true priority. But if that's not his position, why are we insisting that it should be? There's enough trauma to deal with already; she doesn't need to buy more.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 11:59 PM, May 15th (Wednesday)]

This will likely be the last post on this as it's really clear that few comments are coming from anyone who actually reconciled and moved on in life.

Yes, I did a horrible thing. For us to move on, he needs to forgive me. Attempting to strip me of the people I love would show that the damage I did is irreversible.

I would feel awful, I would know it was my fault and I would accept that. I would always feel love for him and remorse for my actions but we would go our separate ways.

Yes he would have to forgive me. This doesn't give him a free pass to beat me up indefinitely, attempt to break up my family and family like relations and it is not an agreement to live in misery.

At no point am I telling our kids that they aren't seeing their cousins and Godmother anymore because their psychotic father feels indignation and wants to punish me for an affair.

What I'm willing to do is accept fault, be honest and attempt to move forward. Becoming a punching bag is not on the list. If that is not enough, I will understand and we will work out a separation.

The good news is, is that he has yet to show a single sign of wanting misery to be the result. Is he upset? Obviously. Has he gotten angry with me? He sure has. But the concept of forgiveness does not involve a commitment to neverending sorrow. Because if he tried to cut me off from the people I love (obviously included my nieces) I would hate him more and more every time I looked at him. So this is not an option. It's a batshit crazy notion.

This has nothing to do with pecking orders, my sister wouldn't be the one saying it's him or me and if she did, well guess what? She could go be miserable without me too.

If he couldn't get through this if he had to see her, then he simply wouldn't be able to get through it. I wouldn't blame him. His feelings would be valid. But they are the feelings of someone would would be beyond reconciling with. And it would be better to get on with the separation before hatred was the only thing left.

Since we have chosen to stay together. In fact the word divorce has not even been raised as a possibility by either one of us. Then he has agreed to forgive me. Period. From there we can work on the other things, but without forgiveness there would be no point. Yes, I am lucky to have him. He still takes the time to remind me that he loves me when we're fighting. And I love him too. And yes, I love him too.

I agree with BSR.

Not possible, one is my sister and the other is my best friend and I've known her for over 20 years. The topic is now completely off limits, but they know something happened.

From this statement it’s been extrapolated that her sister and friend were co-conspirators or, in keeping with the criminal metaphors, accessories after the fact. I think we need to dial it back some. Nothing wrong with sharing your opinion, but it goes too far when we are projecting facts.

I’ll use myself as an example in a similar situation. If someone inferring something inaccurate or n/a in the situation, I will disagree with their assessment and say plainly that it’s not the case. Then, the if the person(s) continue to insist on their own inaccurate inference, I’m probably going to become defensive. If someone says calls me out on my defensiveness, I’m probably just going to leave. It’s a lose/lose situation. What’s the point in engaging?

All I’m saying, there is a way of communicating your message effectively.

[This message edited by KingRat at 12:16 AM, May 16th (Thursday)]

I think the point of discussing cutting off the sister and BFF is that it's likely OP's BH will move on from blaming himself. Assuming this happens (and I suspect that the odds are very very high that it will), BH may view things differently. As a BS, I can't imagine how I could sit next to anyone that knew me and knew about the A and kept quiet. Maybe this happens to OP's BH. Maybe not. We don't know and can't control it. But OP can try and recognize that it is within the realm of likely possibility, so that she is not blindsided if 2 weeks (or months or years) from now BH says "me or BFF" or "me or SIL". It can - and does - happen (I've seen plenty of posts about it here on SI).

And to OP - I don't see most (but not all) of these posts as below the belt (so to speak). I, and I suspect many others who have posted on this thread (particularly the other wives who have done the exact same thing as you) would hope that you don't withdraw in response. I will again encourage you to read:

- the Hufi-Pufi post on wayward (I think it's what every WS needs to know)

- the DaddyDom post on wayward (something like getting it vs owning it)

- the tons of info in the Healing Library on SI

- Joseph's Letter

- How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair by Linda MacDonald

- Not Just Friends, by Shirley Glass

- other posts on SI by waywards and (if you are up to it) betrayeds

- Brene Brown (and/or others) on shame vs humiliation, vulnerability, empathy, etc.

- The NY times article called "the great betrayals" (on how humans need story as a way of understanding life)

Entitlement is a big part of most WS' emotional makeup. Many of your posts seem to have quite a bit of it. I think that's understandable, and also that it's super important that you recognize that it may not really be serving or helping you - or at least not helping become a more healthy you. That you are able to read the above with an open mind. There are a lot of posts on SI about shame and how it can spur defensiveness or anger, and then spiral into self loathing. Some of your posts seem to say you may be swinging back and forth on this front. That's also understandable, AND it's an opportunity to work on getting out of your own way on a journey to a better sense of self awareness and health.

Between the availability of insight into the journeys those who have come before you (doing the EXACT same thing you did - most folks pretty quickly realize that their affairs weren't so special after all) and those who have gone through what your BH is experiencing, the books, the healing library, etc. you have been provided a wealth of information that could help you. This information can work as a kind of flashlight to help you find your way through the dark of the A and the aftermath. You can avail yourself of it, or you can keep your eyes closed. It's your call.

The fallout from the affair dday may be a sh*tshow, but it's also an opportunity. The ball is in your court to use the opportunity to the betterment of yourself, the aid of your BH, and if you are very lucky, the gift of reconciliation of your M.

I wish you well on this journey. Godspeed.

Your arrogance is remarkable, VE. You’ve stabbed your BH in the back and it’s still more about how you’ll heal and how you’ll feel going forward. Wow.

That said, perhaps I should acknowledge your candor. Sometimes we read WW stories and just can’t put our finger on why they don’t seem believable. Maybe it’s because they truthfully feel like you do, but say the words that they think people want to hear. Mixed messages make it hard to decipher one’s true intent sometime. We don’t have that problem with you. It is clear you are Priority One in your world.

Good luck to you and your BH. I hope he deals from the pain of this betrayal in a constructive manner.

Well I'm not going to delete any previous posts (!) but let the record stand how wrong I was.

NeverHealed, thank you for being gracious.

BSR,

VioletElle, I hope you find here what you need to grow.

This will likely be the last post on this as it's really clear that few comments are coming from anyone who actually reconciled and moved on in life.

Just because some here did not reconcile does not mean their suggestions and advice are without merit.

Yes, I did a horrible thing. For us to move on, he needs to forgive me. Attempting to strip me of the people I love would show that the damage I did is irreversible.

To quote Luke Skywalker: Every single thing you just said was wrong. Your husband doesn't NEED to do anything. If he forgives you then that would be a good thing, but he doesn't owe you his forgiveness. You are using emotional blackmail here against him.

I would feel awful, I would know it was my fault and I would accept that. I would always feel love for him and remorse for my actions but we would go our separate ways.

No won't. It sounds nice to say you will, but once a woman moves on and falls in love with another man, her ex is yesterday's news. It's a nice pleasant thought, but that's not the way it works. You may like him, but you'll never really love him again.

Yes he would have to forgive me. This doesn't give him a free pass to beat me up indefinitely, attempt to break up my family and family like relations and it is not an agreement to live in misery

.

You mean in order for you to stay with him he HAS to forgive you? Really? He just has to? Do you not think you have some responsibility to earn his forgiveness and trust?

At no point am I telling our kids that they aren't seeing their cousins and Godmother anymore because their psychotic father feels indignation and wants to punish me for an affair.

What I'm willing to do is accept fault, be honest and attempt to move forward. Becoming a punching bag is not on the list. If that is not enough, I will understand and we will work out a separation.

Who among us here has said you need to be a punching bag? I've gone back and looked and I don't see it. Where is all this hostility and defensiveness coming from.

The good news is, is that he has yet to show a single sign of wanting misery to be the result. Is he upset? Obviously. Has he gotten angry with me? He sure has. But the concept of forgiveness does not involve a commitment to neverending sorrow. Because if he tried to cut me off from the people I love (obviously included my nieces) I would hate him more and more every time I looked at him. So this is not an option. It's a batshit crazy notion.

So do you hate him already?

If he couldn't get through this if he had to see her, then he simply wouldn't be able to get through it. I wouldn't blame him. His feelings would be valid. But they are the feelings of someone would would be beyond reconciling with. And it would be better to get on with the separation before hatred was the only thing left.

Wow... just wow. Don't you see the inherent extortion in what you just wrote?

Since we have chosen to stay together. In fact the word divorce has not even been raised as a possibility by either one of us. Then he has agreed to forgive me. Period

.

No, not necessarily. He may just want to not get mangled by you in a divorce and want's to continue having access to his children.

From there we can work on the other things, but without forgiveness there would be no point. Yes, I am lucky to have him. He still takes the time to remind me that he loves me when we're fighting. And I love him too. And yes, I love him too.

There are many different kinds of love. Ask yourself if you love him the way a wife is supposed to love her husband: actively, putting him above all others. If you cannot do that, then maybe you and he have different views of what marriage is and maybe divorce would be the best thing.

Wow, I consider my marriage better than it ever was and there are things that I’m pretty sure I will never forgive my WH for that he did during the affair. Interesting. And divorce hasn’t been brought up once? Not even for a second? I’m guessing her BH is playing the pick me dance.

I feel for you Violet Elle if he wakes up out of the fog he is in. The anger most of us go through is unreal. What you’ve done leaves permanent damage on a person.

I’m kind of indifferent on the cutting off the sister and best friend. If they were aware but didn’t actively participate in hiding the affair, hanging out with OP and the AP, etc, then I may not take such drastic measures. They were put in an impossible situation. That would be up to BH to decide.

VE -

GENTLY, I saw a post of yours on another thread. The OP's daughter's date backed out for prom and when her parents tried to discuss standing up for herself and not being treated poorly, she brought up her mother's (BW) reconciliation with her father (WH) (but you did it with daddy).

The date ultimately told the daughter that he "had "a change of heart" and that he is taking her just as originally planned."

You responded:

This is manipulation of the absolute worst kind. Truly premeditated abuse.

Again - GENTLY - can you not see that having an A is also "truly premeditated abuse"? And that it's actually far far far far far far worse than a 17yo boy ditching his date for the prom?

Can you not see that having an A, coupled with many of your posts in this thread are also "manipulation of the absolute worst kind"?

I do not say this to shame you or hurt you. But I did feel it is important to call this one out. It is the first step in finding any semblance of EMPATHY for your BH.

Godspeed.

VE, you and your H are so new to this. This is process that most would say 2-5 years if everything if the work is done on both sides.

To early to begin the building of a new M right now. You both have things you need to work through individually. He is focused on being the KISA (Knight in shining armor) to your damsel in distress. It was present long before any A entered the picture. It is another form of co-dependency and right, wrong or indifferent it is going to make this recovery harder than it has to be.

Maybe you haven't looked everyone up that responded, but feel free to look at my posting history. I am one of the BH that fully R'd with his W. I am happy. She is happy. We are back to living our lives in a better M than we've ever hoped for. No, it is not perfect all of the time, but it is a lot better than it was for both of us.

Happily reconciled. 7 years past dday.

FWIW- the point about your sister/BFF is not the biggest issue in front of you right now. Those things can worked out and none of us know the details behind them. It will have to be addressed, but only once the crisis has passed. Right now this something between you and your H. That is it. No one else gets a say or has to live with the consequences.

You both desperately need IC. Neither of you are strong enough to support the other one if you are both wounded and bleeding out. Stop assuming what the other person feels, plans or is thinking. You communicate about it. No matter how difficult it seems that does pass very quickly when you both realize you are coming from the same place.

If you take anything from take this. This will take time. Time by itself can lessen the hurt, but it doesn't resolve issues that are already there. That takes work. Both of you need to on yourselves and be confident in who you are and who you want to be before you can build M 2.0. That is what R is all about. Building a new M that is superior to the one you had. The past doesn't matter as much because you are too excited about the future.

Why am I here as a fully reconciled, happy content, person? Mostly because I owe a debt of gratitude to this board as it literally saved me more times than I can count. Further I want to help others lessen their pain and be sure that the possible outcomes from infidelity are balanced. No not all M survive infidelity. Some do. Some don't. I know that not only surviving is possible, but also having a better M and life than I had before. The how is different from everybody.

If you are short on hope please read the positive reconciliation stories (my 7 year updates is in there somewhere). Right now I think you feel hopeless. I don't think you should. Your H is there. No he might not be all loving and calm, but he is there. If he did not want to be he wouldn't. Respect what that must take for him. He is still there and any anger he feels is in direct proportion to the amount of love he does feel for you. He hurts because he does love you. If he didn't the choice would be easy for him. Hate is not the opposite of love, indifference is. Based on what you have shared he is not anywhere near indifferent.

You might hear things that bother you. The thing you need to figure out is why they bother you so much. It takes an honest exploration of your thoughts, actions and feelings to get to the next level down. I now looking inward can be painful, but you must do that. It is the only way forward for you. Your M ? A different thing altogether. You need to heal regardless of the outcome of your M.

Great post N&D!!

VE,

Not sure if you are still reading, but it might help you to read the posts from BH to get an idea what your BHs inner state is.

Your BH sounds like he is not sharing what is going on inside his head with you, but reading some of the soul baring posts from others BHs here might be your only hope to understand him.

What often happens when a BH attempts to supress the effects of an affair is that he turns into a time bomb and 5 or 10 years later has his own affair or even start to drink etc.

I will estimate that your being honest about the sexual part was 50% of your work in recovery.

VioletElle:

I will echo what gmc so wisely posted. I can’t improve on her words.

But I hope you continue to read here and post. If you are sincere in your desire to change I believe your attitude will change. You are not the first to take umbrage at the straight talk and opinions (which may seem harsh now) on what it will take if you wish to help your BH heal and for you to change your wayward behavior. I highly recommend you spend time reading in the various forums for reconciliation, jfo, General, etc. You will quickly see the devastating effects infidelity causes on a BS. The tentacles of devastation reach out into areas of life you can not yet even imagine. You will see the humiliation, embarrassment, sadness, pain of betrayal, confusion, and disbelief that continue to haunt the BS daily. The goal is to realize the extent of the damage caused, to face it squarely, to deal openly and honestly with your own brokenness that led to your betrayal, and most importantly develop empathy for your BH and act accordingly.

I will not try to change your stance on relations with your sister and BFF. But you will not have to read far to see threads where BS’s struggle with continued exposure to friends and family who condoned or tacitly covered up the WS’s A. You will see a WS who willingly gave up ongoing relations with his parents who condoned the A, at the behest of a BW. Unlike your characterizations of these women acting like Josef Stalin, in demanding cutting the relationship even with parents of the WS, it is a step to re-establish that the WS values the M that they so cavalierly destroyed by eliminating those who were enemies of the M. Does that mean they are banished forever? It depends on their complicity and ability to make amends to the BS.

Trust has been destroyed in your M. How will you repair it?

Your BH has been humiliated and emasculated by your betrayal. How will you heal him? You say you love your BH,

but your infidelity says you do not. How will you convince him? How will you get to the bottom of your own brokenness so you can become a safe partner?

Keep reading here. You will find the guideposts to answer these questions in these forums if you have the courage to face your own demons. Good luck.

[This message edited by fareast at 12:05 PM, May 16th (Thursday)]

Completely different situation. When I had an affair I didn't expect him to find out about it. I convinced myself that what he doesn't know won't hurt him. I didn't do it in an attempt to manipulate him. It turned out that I couldn't live with the lie. It's not a stick and a carrot situation here. There is no real parallel.

And for the record if a boy did that to me on my prom night, i'd have killed him, not figuratively. If my husband cheated on me, my reaction wouldn't have been nearly so extreme.

I'm not saying he has to forgive me, but if we can't get there then we don't stay married. This isn't blackmail. Yes, if we choose to split up I will move on and not allow myself to live in misery. It may not be fair, it may upset your sense of justice but this is real life. There have been greater injustices since I started typing that sentence and will be more before this one is finished.

If we split he will be completely responsible for moving on as the world won't wait. If he stays bitter after that, well that's on him.

So he doesn't HAVE to do anything. If he cheated on me, the first question I would ask myself is: Can I forgive him? If the answer was no, then there would be nothing left. Then I would figure out how to move on.

A miserable marriage is not an option. Even if it's one I created. Or even if the tables were turned. I have a reasonably high threshold for fallout, but not if forgiveness is off the table. That's not blackmail, it's a reality. He has options.

Oh and he won't get mangled in court. I had more money than him when we got married and have made more sense. He would be taking half and I could even get hit with alimony. I'm in Canada and nobody is going to take away access to his children. He knows this as well as I do. Money is not an issue here, it's laughable just how much of a non-issue it is.

My sister and best friend are not issues because they would never be on the table. I would be deeply unhappy without them and have no desire to be married. If he attempted to cut of my support network in life, in some bizarre attempt to isolate me, then I would have no desire to be married to him. I am not talking to them about the affair anymore, I have respected that request and that's as far as that goes. If his pride can't handle that, well then I wouldnt be able to bring myself to be attracted to him. I wouldn't have control over that. If someone cut themselves off from their parents then they couldnt have felt overly close to them.

Fair or not, my support network will exist either way. I do go to therapy and it's never been hinted at that I should ever give that up.

If he ever feels a need to make me miserable to prove my love for him, there wouldn't be any love at all. So he really has no say on that issue.

As I said, he is doing a version of the pick me dance,because he knows he can't make his healing a priority, because his wife hasn't reached remorse.

I wish your husband luck. He needs it.

And,FTR, my husband and I have been happily reconciled. For years.

[This message edited by HellFire at 12:44 PM, May 16th (Thursday)]

You are so delusional that at this point I am willing to believe that you are defective enough to not have known that you were making the choice to destroy him during your affair. It's usually a lie the WS tells, and essentially the reason why it's such terrible behavior, as a WS spouse fully knows the destruction they're doing.

I will only take the strongest proof.

You literally said that the way you see the world, if you run over a person with your car and they lose their legs in it, and then that person decidds to stay away from you to avoid being run over again, it's on them if they still cannot walk after.

I know you will claim otherwise, making you wrong again. You said that, is the only truth there is.

VE, you are missing the point here. Again, I suggest that you go back and read the posts that are NOT suggesting that you have to cut these people out of your life, mine included. This is not a one-size-fits all situation. People here are trying to help you, at least most of them, and you are completely fixated on one issue. Let's try to move on from that one issue, and try to help get you some better perspective.

If we split he will be completely responsible for moving on as the world won't wait. If he stays bitter after that, well that's on him.

This is a reasonable sentence, with good boundaries on your part. Why does this stick out for me? Because I know that there is bullshit here. I don't know what particular brand of bullshit it is, but I know it's bullshit. The reason that I know that is because people that have affairs don't have good boundaries. Period. You are extraordinarily insightful and eloquent in the way that you communicate here, and I think it's an element of how you are intellectualizing your actions in the affair, as well as the fallout from it. This itself is a type of defensiveness, intended to shut out any sort of vulnerability on your part.

I can't give you the perspective of your BH, but I can give you the perspective of a BH. I have also been reading here for a long time, and I can tell you that you are missing the boat, at least partially. The husband that you have right now is likely not the husband that you are going to have in a few months. Anger is likely coming. Anger at the betrayal, the irrational nature of what you did, the pain he's going through, the injustice of it all. There are things that you can do to navigate that process better, and we can help you through that.

You come across as very controlled in all of this, and it's disconcerting because it reminds me of my XWW. When I caught her in her affair, she was so certain she knew her why already, and that it would never happen again. You might not be surprised to find out that it was already her third affair, and there were more after. I am not saying that you are my XWW, but I am saying that there is danger in going about this in a cavalier way. Do you want to avoid an unhappy marriage? Then learn from my mistakes, and don't do what I did.

Encourage him to get into therapy. Get yourself into therapy. Learn to be vulnerable, and be honest with him about what you are learning about yourself, and why you did this. This is the only way to take the responsibility for this off of your plate. The BHs here that are weighing in are right about what your BH is likely going through, even if he doesn't see it clearly yet (he likely doesn't). It took me years to sort through how I felt, and how it affected me. I was beyond crushed. I put EVERYTHING into my marriage, and if it failed, what did that say about me?

There isn't one right way to navigate this process, but there are a LOT of wrong ones, and I desperately don't want to see you take one of those.