SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

It may be that you're at a crossroads of sorts, or maybe not.

I do agree with Pink Piggy that there is a disconnect between her having a sexual affair with multiple instances of sex, where she returned for more sex (and to our knowledge would have kept on returning if the A had not been discovered by the BOW), on the one hand, and saying that she is asexual, on the other. I think she owes you a better explanation than the one she has given. "His dick was out and he just expected it, but it was sort of gross and he grunted and stunk." Okay, but you went back for more, and by all indications would have kept going back for more. Why?

On a going forward basis, you're going to have to decide at some point whether you will leave her if the marriage remains sexual. As you are pondering that question, you might tell her that this is you existential place right now and ask her to help you avoid the issue by working with you to make sex better.

She knows how to do this. She just doesn't try. But you have a more legitimate beef on this point in light of her A.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 5:35 AM, July 16th (Tuesday)]

I absolutely believe NOW that this is her memory of the sex and this is what she has told herself to heal and move forward. I have similar thoughts of the AP in my situation. However, I don't try to claim it wasn't about sex, when clearly that was a component. There needs to be some sort of attraction and affair sex is forbidden, illicit, secret. It can add to that intense feeling.I got off on how it made me feel. I think your wife does feel disgusted and embarrassed with herself at this point. That she allowed herself to be used by this man. I'm sure she has shut down part of herself.

But she is missing a huge opportunity to connect with you and reclaim her sexual side with a safe, loving partner. You deserve that side of her!

[This message edited by pinkpggy at 7:13 PM, July 15th (Monday)]

I agree you do deserve that side of her.

Where I disagree is that while having an affair there can’t be sex that is less than. Sex is a component yes- I definitely wanted to be seen as desirable during the affair so I wanted him to want me. But the sex itself? Meh. It was something I did ...I liked the attention and being close but there wasn’t anything really there for me in that way. I was numb in many ways through the duration of the affair and had no O’s with him and maybe one or two with h in the entire duration. I couldn’t - I had numbed myself to a female form of impotence. This continued past dday. This was odd for me. H and I always were active and I almost always finished. Maybe 2 percent of the time it was a no go. You can absolutely have a physical affair as a woman and it be more about attention and emotions than anything else. I would never do a revision and say it wasn’t enjoyable but it was far less so than what I was used to and with less knowledge and skill. And there were other detractors to it too that at the time I just tried to ignore.

I am baffled at her lack of drive but she is still having sex with him last I heard two or three times a week. I think there is therapy that needs to happen to unravel it.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:25 PM, July 15th (Monday)]

Oh and I will give you a different example.

My girlfriend just went away with her boyfriend for the first time. I met her and two other girlfriends for dinner the other night and one asked her “well how was it? Did you have good chemistry?” And she said “oh it was lovely and all but you know you gotta do it like a dozen times or so before you get the hang of each other” and we all said in unison “yeahhhhh”.

If I remember correctly Mrs. fender guy had sex something like 7-8 times during the affair. And there was limited time. I think this is truly a matter of drive/desire maybe shame. But she should be more curious as to what the problem is and more open to solving it.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:35 PM, July 15th (Monday)]

I don't doubt that it could have been meh,but what I question is that it was so awful and gross. Your view of your affair and mine is tainted by time and emotions and embarrassment and shame. If we went back in time and looked at ourselves in the thick of it, I think our opinions of the sex would be different. I'm just saying the fact that she has shut down that whole aspect of the affair and now the guy is gross and disgusting means she's given herself some new narrative. And it's playing out at home too.

I know my negative thoughts of my affair and myself at that time make it now almost impossible to look at it as anything good. But I do acknowledge I went back and kept going back and having sex (and at the time I did enjoy it, I can admit that, I liked how it made feel). I just find it odd she now shut that all down as well as with her husband.

At the risk of a bit of a thread jack, I'll share an anecdote. In high school I was the first sex partner for an incredibly hot young woman. Way out of my league. I was a short, shy, nerdy guy from a small town. She was tall and beautiful and very popular, big firm boobs, athletic, from a big city. She visited my small town in summer. She was 100% the aggressor in our relationship. It had to he like that because I was so shy. She initiated sex. She consulted with her older sisters to learn how to do sexual acts. She wrote me gushing letters thanking me for "making her a woman" and describing in graphic detail what she was going to do to me.

Time passed. We each went off to colleges in distant places. No social media in those days. We lost contact. A few years later - I was by then early 20's, more confident with women- I was visiting my parents in their small town. Saw her car in town and found her sunbathing in her grandmother's back yard. She was still smoking hot and I had high hopes for some poom poom. But she proceeded to tell me how she had got religion and met a good Christian man who wanted to marry her but he couldn't because she wasn't a virgin. She went on to tell me how horrible I was and how she wishes we had never had sex and she didn't really enjoy it, she just did it because I was so insistent. Basically accused me of taking advantage of her.

I was gobsmacked. The disconnect between her retroactive description and my reflection could not have been wider. For years, decades, I have wondered about this.

One of the things SI has opened my eyes to is the degree to which women use sex transactionally. Way moreso than I ever even remotely imagined. This model explains my story perfectly, including the fact that this "way out of my league" hottie hooked up with me in the first place. I was a proxy. Snce I wasn't part of her school, I was a safe outlet for her daydream of "becoming a woman," a daydream fueled by her toxic older sister, who was a groupie. Later, when she got religion, she was able to look at our hookups through a different lens because she now hated the reason she decided to hook up with me.

Frankly, as a married man, this realization that women often use sex way more transactionally than we men could possibly fathom has me now a bit paranoid. Do women ever have sex solely out of desire outside of the context of a ONS?

But back to Fenderguys thread, his WW thought she was in love and all that so she used her mediocre sex transactionally to keep the A going, which it seems she is also doing with Fender. The question that come to my mind is whether, absent an affair, he would leave his wife over sex. There are a lot of facets to marriage, sex being just one.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 7:41 AM, July 16th (Tuesday)]

But back to Fenderguys thread, his WW thought she was in love and all that so she used her mediocre sex transactionally to keep the A going, which it seems she is also doing with Fender. The question that come to my mind is whether, absent an affair, he would leave his wife over sex. There are a lot of facets to marriage, sex being just one.

This was really what I was trying to say. Fender's wife affair does not at all prove to me that she had desire in the way we think of desire. It doesn't prove to me that she isn't having some sort of sexual dysfunction and doesn't think she needs it for herself. She willingly and enthusiastically still has sex with fenderguy, but because she has lost contact with her own desire somehow it lacks variety and the relishing in it the way a woman without dysfunction may.

I only used my situation as an example of the idea that I had sex to feel desired, not because I felt desire. I know factually what happened and what didn't happen and I do know what I thought at the time but pushed aside. That's not to say that the entire picture of it is not painted with disgust now, I totally understood what Pink was trying to convey as well.

One thing I will correct for BFTG...I have had lots of non-transactional sex in my life. I have had it for the sake of having it, because I wanted it. Rarely in either of my marriages have I performed duty sex. And, I don't always have to be emotionally fulfilled either. As a single woman, I had no strings attached and was surprised to find when that is truly what I was doing that I would get relentlessly chased to have dates or some sort of continuation - and when I didn't bite was told I was "cold". I think sex can be transactional for both sexes under the right circumstances. I am only saying that because I think if SI has adjusted your thinking to women may always be having sex to get something, that's an overcorrection.

I will also add - and this is Pink's point - that sometimes we only know in hindsight that it was transactional. Much like fenderguy describes of his wife - I thought I was in a relationship I can see now how dumb and how sick that thinking was, but at the time it was just part of it, and I figured it would get better. I hate saying all that, or even thinking about it, but my whole point in all of this is just because she had sex is not evidence of desire to have sex for sex...and I think that's what BFTG is underlining.

I really wonder after what Fenderguy last said if she sees her wild sex side as something she has to put away now. She relates it to who she used to be, and she has a skewed vision of what she should be. I know lots of women who changed when they became mothers. I know lots of women who could take sex or leave it. I don't think it's so hard to believe.

T/J -

One of the things SI has opened my eyes to is the degree to which women use sex transactionally. Way moreso than I ever even remotely imagined.

But is SI a good random sample?

As usual, I have problems with unsupported generalizations.

Men and women are taught to use sex transactionally. Lots of men and women buy into that behavioral model. But is it nature or nurture?

There are, IIRC, societies in which sex is free f obligation. That points to nurture turning sex into a transaction.

Hi FG,

Here are two books I think you and Mrs FG may find interesting. One runs off 5 Languages. It's called SEX STARVED MARRIAGE. I actually lists 8 traits. 4 traits women seek and 4 traits men seek in and open honest marriage or relationship.

The other is HE WINS, SHE WINS. It is about how argue without putting down your partner. Nor one partner always giving in to the others decisions. Resentment forms, just like you are beginning to resent your wife with the lack of desire and intimacy.

Both books are by the same author/therapist. I forget he name. He and his wife also do podcast. These two books have helped me and my wife a few years back. Hope you give it a try.

I am going to add to the conversation.

For the OW in my husbands affair. She 100% loved the sex with my husband. I heard all about how much she loved fucking him ln a VAR. Every single word out of her mouth was about sex.

I am willing to bet she told her husband the sec was not good and she didn’t want to do it.

She wanted to have sex with my husband. She was extremely aggressive.

IWMG -

I am not saying at all that you are wrong about that, and maybe she did really love it. But, I will also say maybe she just really wanted to win and she thought that was her advantage in some way.

Many WH's (Including the AP in my situation) claim dead bedroom. I am quite sure I seemed enthusiastic but I am also quite sure that I was much more manipulative at the time than I was giving myself credit for. I knew exactly what he wanted to hear.

It certainly doesn't change anything in your situation of course, but I do think sometimes the two people are blowing smoke up the other ones butt in exactly the way they know the person wants it.

It's not lack of sex. You say she is willing 2 or 3 times a week, which for most long term happily married couples I think is average to above average. It's lack of her showing you that she sees you as her love, her sweetheart, that she wants you romantically/sexually. You miss having intimacy. I can't help but think that the reason some of that is not there is emotional intimacy needs to be worked on.

Some people, men and women, do not equate sex with intimacy. My fWW doesn't.

My friends fiancé proceeds to rip me a new one, even though I literally did nothing wrong. She said “that girl was practically getting pregnant just by looking at you!” Again, I’m not overly attractive, and am not smooth or anything. I try telling her this to my friend, she says she has noticed other girls doing this with me a lot. She says that by being friendly and confident, but showing them literally no interest, I am in fact making them want me more. She said it makes you absolutely irresistible to these young girls. Makes sense. My friends know a little about my wife and I’s issues. They say it makes sense, you aren’t getting the affection and attention you crave at home, and that need is subconsciously coming out in different ways. So now 4 of my closest friends think I’m at risk for cheating on my wife, which I am not.

Here's an idea:

Tell this friend to mind her own f*cking business. It's not her job to be your chastity patrol.

I agree I am on a slippery slope. I need to figure out how to make myself seem unavailable. How to stop sending out those vibes.

Why? As long as you respectfully decline their advances, why not bask in some female attention? You've already told us you have the willpower to refuse. Why do think you need to change yourself or how others perceive you? Are you saying you don't want to be the authentic you?

It wouldn't hurt for your WW to get wind that women are after you. It is very apparent that she does not find you attractive, nor does she believe other women would also. Maybe it is time to change her perception.

There's nothing wrong with instilling a bit of fear in a spouse.

Here's an idea:

Tell this friend to mind her own f*cking business. It's not her job to be your chastity patrol.

Interesting POV coming from a BS. I bet a lot of other BS's wish someone would have spoken up when they say inappropriate behavior and not been complicit in the A because it wasn't their marriage & therefore not their problem.

Hiking It Out,

I don’t think for one second when two people who engage an affair they hate the sex.

My husband did NOT have a dead bedroom. My husband and his AP had a true love connection in their mindset during the affair.

My husband liked the sex of course. However, his affair wasn’t just about sex. It was about love. It’s actually quite comical to listen to the VaR (3 years ago). She would go on and on about sex. He would say. I loved holding your hand. I loved singing church hymns with you.

What is interesting to me about Fender...he is married to a woman; I am married to a man. Neither of them have high sex drives. It’s extremely similar. One difference is at this point my husband does want to make sure he meets my sexual needs. However, he was also raised in an environment never talking about sex. Not one time. Not even the initial sex talk. Also a fire and brimstone religious upbringing.

Also similar to Fenderswife. Wives aren’t sexual creatures.

I pointed about the female APa words because men get so into this idea that women won’t enjoy sex with their adultery partner.

My husbands AP absolutely loved sex with my husband.

Interesting POV coming from a BS. I bet a lot of other BS's wish someone would have spoken up when they say inappropriate behavior and not been complicit in the A because it wasn't their marriage & therefore not their problem.

If it was his buddy expressing his concern, that would be one thing. But this gal isn't an intimate friend. She's not close enough to him to be qualified to offer her opinion.

Hiking It Out,

I don’t think for one second when two people who engage an affair they hate the sex.

No, I don't think that either. I have never claimed to hate it either. I am just saying that there might have been an over inflated sense of enthusiasm because some women believe that's their edge in some way. I was just offering it as an alternative view, and not one really specific to your situation but a more general one.

My husband did NOT have a dead bedroom

.

Yes, I know that, I have read your posts since I got here. Again in generalized terms it's a common thing that is said to the AP. It was said to me. In my sick twisted mind, I was KISA with the sex. Did he have a dead bedroom? Probably not. No Idea. I know it was none of my damned business in the least. My point was just that is the dynamic of many affairs.

My husband and his AP had a true love connection in their mindset during the affair.

That's interesting and surprising. Mostly because I know what you have said about your husband and your pre-A marriage. You would think he would not really have been capable of any real love connection.

On the other hand, in my own situation - I did have those feelings at the time I was doing what I was doing. I just never realized until afterwards that the feelings were based on nothing - a fantasy, lies, projections. I don't think I could say it was a real love connection.

My husband liked the sex of course. However, his affair wasn’t just about sex. It was about love. It’s actually quite comical to listen to the VaR (3 years ago). She would go on and on about sex. He would say. I loved holding your hand. I loved singing church hymns with you.

This is not a surprise. I think that men can experience limerance. There were different junctures in my own affair in which I felt that I needed to amp up what I was saying sexually, it comes from a place of deep insecurity and lack of self worth. It comes from being taught at a young age that's what men like you for. So, the only thing I was saying is yeah, she might have liked the sex but it might not have been at the level it sounded like. But, it might have been as well. It's not because I think you should think differently about your own situation but to provide a varied perspective on how someone has a sexual affair and may seem to be all about the sex but it not be.

What is interesting to me about Fender...he is married to a woman; I am married to a man. Neither of them have high sex drives. It’s extremely similar. One difference is at this point my husband does want to make sure he meets my sexual needs. However, he was also raised in an environment never talking about sex. Not one time. Not even the initial sex talk. Also a fire and brimstone religious upbringing.

Fenders wife has sex with him 2 or 3 times a week. I think she believes she is trying to meet his sexual needs. The problem is she doesn't have any drive so she doesn't want to spend a lot of time and energy on it. She's efficient about it, and on his own descriptions on multiple posts she is still enthusiastic about it. In fact, it sounds like she initiates it often.

Also similar to Fenderswife. Wives aren’t sexual creatures. I pointed about the female APa words because men get so into this idea that women won’t enjoy sex with their adultery partner.

My husbands AP absolutely loved sex with my husband.

I think most times women do enjoy sex with their adultery partner (And I believe you, in your case the OW may have absolutely loved the sex) I have never said I didn't enjoy it or even that Fender's wife didn't enjoy it. For me, it wasn't the worst and it wasn't the best. But, my affair was not about sex to me, so my point is that that I could understand why sex might not have been important to her.

Fenders wife had sex with the AP 7 times (by his description) in the SAME efficient manner that she provides for him. It just isn't a stretch for me to believe when he says to all of us that he feels his wife fell in love with someone else and it was more about that for her. He basically says sex seemed to be treated the same way in his case and the case of the AP.

The only reason that I am stating any of this is because people think that because she had sex with the AP that disproves she has a low drive or is asexual. That she just doesn't want to have sex with Fender. Fender doesn't think that's true, and I believe him.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:50 PM, July 18th (Thursday)]

HIO,

That she just doesn't want to have sex with Fender. Fender doesn't think that's true, and I believe him.

And this statement goes back to this....affairs are not about the betrayed spouse It is 100% the waywards stuff. Meaning, by no means do I think I am not sexually attractive. My husbands issues regarding sex are his. Not mine. Same for fenders wife.

That's interesting and surprising. Mostly because I know what you have said about your husband and your pre-A marriage. You would think he would not really have been capable of any real love connectio

Yes, and my husband could have NEVER sustained it. His affair was the next logical step for a human who was about 70% narcissist and 97% selfish.

In a real world setting, there is NO WAY their love would have continued. My husband loves limerance. It was a 6 week affair and after two weeks they were getting married. I think their affair was all about the high. There was nothing of substance.

I don’t want to threadjack. Just chatting....

[This message edited by Iwantmyglasses at 1:08 PM, July 18th (Thursday)]

And this statement goes back to this....affairs are not about the betrayed spouse It is 100% the waywards stuff. Meaning, by no means do I think I am not sexually attractive. My husbands issues regarding sex are his. Not mine. Same for fenders wife.

Yes, ALL of my dialogue has been to speak up when people tell him she just doesn't find him attractive or she just doesn't want to have sex with him. I don't think that is the case at all. I think she has these issues for real, and the affair doesn't prove she doesn't.

But, where I agree with everyone is she needs to do something about it if she wants to stay married to fender. And, fender needs to make that known as well.