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Have you considered he is not expressing his feelings to you, because he knows you won't tolerate it? If you think sarcasm is unacceptable, then him expressing his true hurt feelings, and anger, surely wouldn't go over well.

You say you don't want to be this person. But you refuse to take in any advice that might help you change.

Edited to add, you are far from the "worst fucking bitch to breath" on here.

[This message edited by HellFire at 1:49 PM, August 20th (Tuesday)]

I haven't dismissed everything. I agreed this was in fact a relapse despite not following through with the tryst. I admitted what happened and that is not something the old me would have done. I don't hate everything about myself and my husband doesn't hate me either. He knows better than anyone what I'm like at my best and he knows about my worst too. I'm not a perfect angel to him. He's caught me lying before and knows all too well about my mood swings. But he loves me. It doesn't have to make perfect sense and it doesn't need to split into some clearly defined checklist of fairness. Some seem to want to say, you did this so he gets to do that without ever considering that maybe it gives him no sense of satisfaction to hurt me. So this perogative becomes less attractive if his natural desire is not to inflict pain and yes, especially not to inflict it on me. He treats me better than I could have ever imagined. I don't say that to make a saint out of him, it just is what it is.

I don't know how to quote people yet, but:

"If the day ever came where he treats me with unconcerned contempt then we would get divorced.......and yah yah yah, I understand what I did and how it can be seen as treating him with contempt, but he does have the ability to leave me if he wanted to."

You said that, then mentioned you wouldn't divorce him. You then said the way he uses sarcasm drives you insane.

Please, read back a little. These might be how you really feel. You are scared to commit and have 1 hand on the exit. Right up a list of the reasons you would divorce him. Then put check marks next to those worse than what you have done to him.

Then accept you aren't divorcing him as long as you are not being hurt (Physically, my MC was awesome and called my wife on her Emotional abuse claim crap. The main reason I listened to him.). This is something my MC did once for my WS who you remind me so much of. Her list had things way smaller than you mention. You seem to want a partner when you have not been a partner in the marriage. It is like an alcoholic in rehab stating that if they even smell liquor on the breathe of their spouse, they are divorcing them even though they have 5 DUIs.

I even use sarcasm to really piss off my WS. The MC had me not use sarcasm for 2 weeks once. My WS broke down crying more times then I could count. Kept telling me I am being so cold. Even my sighs started to hurt her because I was told I had to be silent instead of throwing sarcasm.

Yeah, you want him to throw in a joke with the jab because he probably can cut to the bone with a comment.

BTW - The MC had me do that so my wife would see I was doing that because it was the best way she received feedback. I am way ahead of my wife in this recovery and she is floundering because of it. I also know I can't help her. She has to figure out how to fix herself. Kind of like where you are now.

I stopped yelling and now my wife raises her voice all the time. I calmly mention this isn't going to be resolve with volume and stop talking. Yeah, that pisses her off. She has to adjust to it now.

Do you know how many times she has asked if we are done counseling so we can go back to how things were before the affairs? I just sigh, shake my head and walk away. 1 year out and I am doing better than most.

This will force you out the door if you don't take away your divorce exit door. Because every time he is "Winning" in reconciliation you will not see how you are the real one winning. He just deserves more at that point whenever you feel like that.

Sorry, if this isn't helping. I am trying. Tell me if it is way off mark and I will see myself out.

I haven't read this whole thread, so I apologize if I cover something that's already been said. I know the gist of it.

It's back to basics. You must trace the reasons you are unable to be happy without the chaos and excitement being brought in. It comes from being unhappy with yourself, not doing all the work yet that is needed. The affair feelings are something you have to learn to give yourself in healthy ways. I think you said you were in therapy, make sure you are doing that. What are you reading? What are you practicing? Until you can answer those questions with a legitimate answer, then all you are doing is treading water.

There will come a time when the idea of the AP contacting you will mortify you. You will want every security against him. I don't live in the same city as the AP in my situation, but every single time I am in the airport I am edgy as it would be the only scenario I can think of that I would possibly encounter him. I want to be on alert so I can divert/hide/etc. I never want to speak to him, email him, see him ever again. I don't know when that wears off, but it's not an uncomfortable feeling.

Know that at one point in time I was addicted to him, I put him above my husband. I put my feelings above my family. I feel like you are skirting around that because you would rather romanticize it as "it's just hard to stay away from one another". That's not factual, that's a story you tell yourself. There is nothing special about this man or your relationship with him. If there were, you would have left your spouses before getting further involved and gone about it the right way. You would have felt it was worth it going the right way, and that you were worth going about it the right way. Instead, you made each other a convenience. And, in turn keep making your marriage a convenience.

Do the work. Focus on you. NC with the AP, that means mentally. Change the story line in your mind because you are entertaining thoughts of fantasy and untruths.

I don't think Bravesirrobin was that off base. Maybe you don't hate your husband, I don't really think that part is true. But, you come off in the two statements that she made in seeming that you hold your AP in higher regard. It's time to examine why that is and what stories you tell yourself that make it so. Then tell yourself new stories based on reality.

And, the reality is, for you and I both is we aren't special women that these men held in some high regard. None of their actions show that. Whose actions do? Our husband who are somehow still here despite the proverbial shit sandwich we served them. Which one looks like love to you and why? I think the biggest problem is that your husband has politely went on with you. If he stood up for himself, he would be in a different position today. He's playing the pick me dance and you are letting him.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:38 PM, August 20th (Tuesday)]

I only mention divorce because I won't be in a relationship that's nothing more than a vicious circle.

It already is. It has been for some time because of you. You have your standards that your own husband goes beyond. Yet, you don't meet them for yourself. Why? You expect to be treated and will tolerate only so much and yet you love in an absolutely different way. What you expect for yourself, you don't give or think he deserves. I have no doubt you value/object love your husband. I don't think you respect him. You choose to take him for granted and to take advantage of him knowing full well that if he did the things you are doing, you would be gone. Pretty hypocritical of you. Probably hard to respect someone like that and not see it for what it really is- a strength you can't achieve at this point which your really don't deny yet seemingly refuse to really feel deep down. Ask yourself can you really love someone you don't respect? For whatever reason, you don't respect him. Maybe because he is caught. No doubt if someone wanted him, you would be on him like a dog with a bone. I think it is stuff like this that make some of the betrayed men talk about instant divorce. Because if a man really has your back and still loves you and works with this shit with you (like your husband is doing for you), he is treated like a doormat with no respect and the wayward continues to take them for granted and to take advantage of them while they disrespect them to get their ego kibbles from the AP that is chasing and fighting for them. I can see how they would get angry at seeing a fellow betrayed man emasculated this way. I am a wayward and it pisses me off. That speaks volumes.

This isn't a relapse BTW, the door was never shut to begin with. You have kept it open. Head, heart, and life.

Enough with the flaws and not being a perfect angel. You use it as an excuse to gaslight. You blameshift and justify with it. Work beyond it and really feel it and own it. Just don't drop it like baggage and call the excuse. You must strive to be better than "only a flawed human". You can be flawed all you want. What you can't be is someone that steps on others to relieve those flaws.

so he gets to do that without ever considering that maybe it gives him no sense of satisfaction to hurt me. So this perogative becomes less attractive if his natural desire is not to inflict pain and yes, especially not to inflict it on me.

What? When a person lashes out it makes no sense. Just because it makes no sense doesn't mean it isn't doing something for that person. It obviously releases something for him. anger, pain, healing, a way to communicate how he hurts and for you to understand how it feels. It made no sense to do anything you did. Why does his actions have to make sense. Stop saving him from himself and do you. Stop controlling his healing based on what you think you know about him.

One day your husband is going to figure out that he is too good for this shit. Then you can divorce when he feels the contempt. That is good. You have that right and control. You have given me the sad impression you really aren't going to lose that much sleep over losing him. You really seem indifferent in the pursuit of your double standards.

[This message edited by Zugzwang at 4:14 PM, August 20th (Tuesday)]

Right up a list of the reasons you would divorce him. Then put check marks next to those worse than what you have done to him.

I never said I wouldn't be the cause of the divorce. The point is that if some of these things were the outcome then the damage I did would be too much. I know this rubs people the wrong way, but people do get divorced and it's rarely a matter of fairness. That said, we are not getting divorced. We have had fights before over the past 15 odd years and what I would be concerned with is if he never calmed down and felt some tenderness for me after saying hurtful things. He's gotten mad at me since I confessed the affair, he called me a "cheap fucking whore" to be precise. But he felt awful and was very remorseful as he should have been.

You seem to want a partner when you have not been a partner in the marriage.

Now that is not true. We are talking about the worst thing I've done but not everything I've done. I'm sorry but that is not all worthless because of infidelity. I am his best friend. I'm a good mother to our children. I do all sorts of things for him and I'm not going to say they were all worthless and neither would he. We will get past this and still be partners.

so we can go back to how things were before the affairs

That's not really what I'm strictly looking for. I wish I never had the affair, but not everything was perfect. I'm going to say what I'm going to say and some will not like it or call me entitled or whatever and I'm not saying this justifies the affair. There was a lack of romance in our relationship, I'm not talking about sex, I'm talking about romance. I don't mean that every day needed to be red wine and roses but I would have liked to be surprised sometime and come home one Friday and be told that he took the kids to his parents' and he's taking me to whatever he had planned. And before anyone says, "well did you ever do that?", that isn't the point, I like to be treated like a woman when it comes to romance and I wouldn't be excited by changing that role. He knows me and knows this. That doesn't mean I'm completely passive. I work on looking good for him, staying in shape and things in the bedroom I don't need to get into. I do put work in and I would like some spontaneity and romance in my relationship. It completely ruins it for me if I have to ask for it. This is part of my personality and I don't mean that all relationships need to have these sorts of gender roles, but mine does. I won't be turned on otherwise. And that still leaves plenty of calendar days for all varieties of other sex and I do not withhold that from him. Call me an entitled princess or whatever else, I need that sort of thing to feel good about my relationship and I want it from him.

I think you said you were in therapy, make sure you are doing that. What are you reading? What are you practicing?

We are going to therapy and we have started practising paired meditation as a way to share company without cloudy thoughts. As for reading, my reading is so full of my research stuff from work, I don't have time or concentration to read much else.....unless you count infidelity forums on my phone.

Know that at one point in time I was addicted to him, I put him above my husband. I put my feelings above my family.

I was horribly addicted to him too. I tried to end it so many times and I would keep ending up on his bed or where ever. Even right after it would happen I remember looking the ceiling and just zoning out thinking, "Who am I?"

you hold your AP in higher regard.

I don't hold him in higher regard. I don't hate him either. I'm sorry, I simply don't hate him. I don't ever want to see him again, but I hate myself not him.

He's gotten mad at me since I confessed the affair, he called me a "cheap fucking whore" to be precise. But he felt awful and was very remorseful as he should have been.

Remorse is feeling bad AND taking steps not to repeat. Your husband feels bad about calling you out for your behavior with a mean name. Do you feel remorse for staying in contact with the AP? Have you taking steps to prevent it from happening again?

I am his best friend. I'm a good mother to our children. I do all sorts of things for him and I'm not going to say they were all worthless and neither would he.

They weren't all worthless but you were not a good mother when you were having an affair and a best friend doesn't continue to be engaged with someone that they used to hurt you. Admitting you have been a shitty friend to him and a less than stellar mom is kind of step one to being able to get back to those good and best levels. Minimizing the impact doesn't bode well.

Healing from infidelity is hard work, its not nice and just managing to say no to actually going over and having sex with this dude isn't enough.

This is a long road. People will think mean things about you. Sometimes those things will be an accurate reflection of your behavior. You have to be able to set aside pride. Your defensiveness is a blocker to your work.

Love is not enough.

I want to apologize for the "hate" comment, which I agree was over the top and indicative of things going on in my day that had nothing to do with your situation.

Having had a chance to decompress a bit, I'm still troubled by your extremely conditional feelings for for your husband. It's like you intended to marry a Perfect Man, and you believe you are being defrauded if you get less than you signed up for, even in response to terrible things you did to him. You're not describing him as a complete human being, as someone who may have been destroyed by your actions at a level that elementally changed who he is. You are describing him as a source of feelings for you. Support for you. Romance for you. Do you give him those things? "That's not the point," you insist, because that's not about you and what you need. Everything is about you; when asked to describe what you see as the consequences of your A, they are "I feel bad, I feel bad, I feel bad."

I do find significant hope in you coming clean to your husband about breaking NC. That must have been painful, and it's something you did for him rather than yourself. So I believe you have some commitment here, to him and to the work, but it's strangely at odds with the deliberately contentious things you say about how you would never allow your husband to treat you like you treated him, or like other WS have commonly been treated by their BS. You set yourself oddly above the destruction you have inflicted.

The irony is that I sense a lot of resentment from you when you think we're doing exactly what you do to your BH: to force you into preconceived behaviors and roles. If we say you should feel X or do Y, you are quick to tell us that you aren't going to kowtow to our proclamations. You reiterate that if your husband makes demands, insults you and refuses to apologize, wants you to cut people out of your life, etc, that that's it, you'll leave. You insist it won't happen because you never would have married a person like that in the first place. Yet you keep coming back and asking for our advice. Why?

Mainly because I have nowhere to really talk about this having been given a no talk order from my husband. It also helped give me the resolve to lay out the details he wanted and reminded me how bad it was to conceal the latest contact.

That doesn't mean there aren't things here that I find absolutely absurd. Such as attempting to wage war by doxing the guy at his work or similar settings. If I don't agree with something, I'm going to say so. The good advice makes less noise and is more sensible to apply as opposed to doing things my husband never asked for and doesn't seem to want.(see example above)

The main thing he says he wants is for me to stop being upset and go back to things the way they were before. Nobody here would accept such things and instead starts taking about cutting my family out of my life in some completely strange act of penance.

We are talking about the worst thing I've done but not everything I've done.

When you become remorseful you will realize that just isn't true. That everything you have done doesn't matter. What matters is the worst thing you have done because of the amount of cruelty, trauma, and pain that comes with cheating. You just don't get it. If you did, you would never never say this. That is understandable because you can't fathom the pain you caused. You regret now because you don't want to let too much of the ugliness you became to be the focus. You aren't focusing on who you became. You are focusing and rallying against it and putting the spotlight on the other aspects. Do you think a person that has been hurt this way, cares if you have been great in other aspects? Honestly, should they? You are blessed by a man that does remember some of that otherwise he might have kicked you to the curb because of who you are now. For the time being you are the sum of the ugly and the other stuff is a distant memory of some other woman. Certainly not a woman that leaves the door open for her AP.

I'm sorry but that is not all worthless because of infidelity.

Yeah, it really does.

I am his best friend.

No, if a friend treated you the way you are treating him now, then they aren't a friend. Let alone a spouse. Strangers on the street are better to him than you are now.

No offense, but it would be hard for a man to be romantic when they are being emasculated. You want him to take a more aggressive role, yet you limit how he should behave and feel. He isn't stepford husband. He is a human being with his own shit to deal with and issues. I ask if this dynamic has been there since the beginning of the marriage. You so-to-speak wearing the pants. If he didn't do things the right way, how would you react? Be truthful to yourself. Did you get resentful? Did you have a script and if it didn't follow you wrote him off? For some men, they stop bothering to do things if it is never enough or good enough for the receiver. These are some things to think about. You focus a lot on how he failed. Why bother writing here about that. How about where you failed. Even before cheating. Because you did and it is there. It starts with your character. A good healthy character doesn't choose to cheat and to continue the cheating.

Ask yourself why you needed romance so much? What do you get out of it? Why do you need it so much you would behave this way to get it? To cheapen yourself and to disrespect yourself and others to get it. Do you really think it is a healthy want and need to this extent that you would cheat?

As you may recall, I agreed with you about not cutting out people who knew about the A (though I would have argued differently had those people encouraged/conspired in it). I could see how your BH wouldn't want or need you to do that, because mine didn't either, and I did not expect it of him (we're madhatters). Other members have had to navigate that as a condition of R, and that's ok, too. There's always an element of "take what you need and leave the rest."

That being said, I do think that your husband's desire to rugsweep -- hide everything, tell no one, stop being upset, go right back to the way things were -- is a red flag. He needs to turn and face it in IC. This is way too big a situation to leave unprocessed. And I wonder what your reaction to that denial is. Is it gratitude at being let off the hook lightly, with no public humiliation or messy explanations? Are you worried about him at all, about the consequences to him of shoving that down into his subconsciousness? Or is it resentment that you did something so dramatic to express your lack of personal fulfillment in your marriage, and now he just wants a return to status quo?

You talk a lot about what you have a right to expect. There's an observation here that resentment breeds entitlement. I've seen other waywards who explain, like you, that their BS is a rare specimen who doesn't follow any of the usual patterns on SI. In the next breath, we hear how that BS has been falling down on the job of meeting the WS's needs. Romance isn't a bad thing to want or need in a marriage, but the way you present your dissatisfaction at not getting it is pretty striking, VioletElle. You refuse to accept that this is not, and should not be, a level playing field in the aftermath of infidelity. Your rights are very, very minimal.

I don't know. Maybe I don't have anything useful to add. You feel that your flaws are something he knows about, accepts, and are not a deal breaker for him, and therefore they aren't something you should have to change. That's the complete package of you -- take it or leave it. That doesn't sound like love to me, it sounds like the last performance review I gave to a mediocre employee who won't get fired but will never be in line for a promotion. You don't seem to see any connection between that attitude and your own unhappiness. I can't make you see it.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 6:27 PM, August 21st (Wednesday)]

I don’t have much time but my husband had been resenting things for years due to his conflict avoidance that I was completely unaware of. One of the things we have learned in MC was to set expectations - but to make the other person aware of your expectations. It is unfair to assume that anyone is a mind reader. Then the other person either agrees to your expectation or doesn’t. Then you make agreements and follow through. You have all of these expectations from your husband preaffair and maybe he failed at some of them - but having an affair certainly wasn’t the solution to feel heard. Now, it’s going to take some time before your husband may feel like meeting those expectations, but if he sticks around, maybe you can work on that with him.

Also, you are not his best friend right now. Maybe before you were. My WH was certainly not my best friend right after dday. My best friends would never do what he did to me. They still don’t feel the same about him 3 years later. None of them would lie to, go behind my back and deliberately cause me pain and suffering the way he did. I trust my best friends not to hurt me. After dday and for a long time, I didn’t trust my WH to do anything. He was a stranger, someone I didn’t even know anymore. I get that is hard to comprehend because you think of all of the good you have done, but it kind of gets wiped out when you hurt someone the way you have done. Only time and healing will get that back.

I love my WH. I trust him know as much as I can, 3 years later. He is one of my best friends. He still is the one person in this world that has caused me more pain than anyone else or any other event in my life. That sucks.

So what are you doing to insure no contact with your AP?

What are you doing to help your husband?

Your BS desire to rugsweep is a direct result of your shutting him down when he lashed out [IMHO].

Until you fully own your actions and the full destruction it caused everyone around you and empathize with their pain - you will remain stuck.

All I'm reading throughout this entire thread is that you would rather anyone else suffer than you. And you are doing anything you can to shut down anyone else's suffering so you don't have to deal with it.

The only glimmer of anything I've seen from you that comes close to getting a clue is when you said

I have to face the fact I put some fucking fling ahead of my own children and that depresses the fuck out of me. I suffer a lot over this.

This is the closest I've seen of you starting to own your decisions. You need to tap into it, not run away from it. Because when you run away from it and chastise your BS for showing any pain or telling you how he feels [yeah including the sarcasm] you are telling him that you'd rather him suffer in silence than you facing the destruction you caused.

Please, listen to us BS and WS alike. Stop with the comment deflections and look within yourself. Feel your feels. And start to deal.

I don’t have much time but my husband had been resenting things for years due to his conflict avoidance that I was completely unaware of. One of the things we have learned in MC was to set expectations - but to make the other person aware of your expectations. It is unfair to assume that anyone is a mind reader. Then the other person either agrees to your expectation or doesn’t. Then you make agreements and follow through. You have all of these expectations from your husband preaffair and maybe he failed at some of them - but having an affair certainly wasn’t the solution to feel heard. Now, it’s going to take some time before your husband may feel like meeting those expectations, but if he sticks around, maybe you can work on that with him.

THIS.

Expectations are premeditated disappointment. As a young woman I used to thing "he should just know" or "if he loved me he would be moved to do these things for me". And, I learned that's crap. We all express our love in different ways, a lot of it is taught to us by our parents or are just inherently parts of who we are. Have you read love languages?

I never thought my husband was romantic or emotionally engaged. Some of how we drifted apart was in these differences. But, I also realized along the way I forgot to appreciate the day to day things that he did because he loved me. Those grand gestures are wonderful and probably should be sprinkled in by both the man and the woman as time and money allows. But, the good stuff, it happens at 3 am when you are sick and he's up getting you things. It happens when he does stuff to your car that you would never think to do. When he grabs your hand in Lowes as you go buy a part to fix something.

And, I learned that I didn't show him love in the way he needed either. I did a lot of taking really good care of domestic things, fixing him something he liked to eat. When what he really wanted from me was to cuddle on the couch watching TV or to take a walk with him instead of overdoing all the work I created for myself.

And, I said to Steve in an earlier post, there are things I did that made me reconnect with that - a gratitude practice was one. I would write down three things every morning I was grateful for. I would really reflect on each one for a minute or two and really feel the joy it brings to my life. By the end of the month I had about 90 things that when they occurred in the days they genuinely brought me more joy and appreciation.

And, I also learned that the joy from love actually comes from what we do for the one we love. We don't really experience love just by being loved. If we don't actively put forth the effort and actions, the generosity of spirit, all we are really doing is getting outside validation, and whether we even appreciate that will be sketchy.

And, I will call you to task on this question you answered about what are you reading or what are you practicing. I don't think it's a bad thing you have started meditating together - H and I do that and yoga and we look forward to that time. But, when I asked what you are practicing and reading, this is about fixing you. My process was, I found my whys (they were internal to me) and I practiced correcting them. And, guess what in practicing to correct them, being mindful of them and having a goal as to how I was going to be different ---- I became different. Your answer is far insufficient for the level of work that is needed. You need to make it a priority.

The problem is not your husband, and it's not the AP. The problem is your own ability to feel joy and happiness in your heart regardless of circumstance. To have good self-worth, self-respect, and self-love. By avoiding this work you are not denying anyone but yourself the true potential of your life.

And, you said you don't put the AP above your husband you simply don't hate him. That's not the problem at all. You just did put the AP (well, yourself) above your husband by being tempted to be in contact to have a tryst. Do you think someone who has good self-worth, self-respect, and self-love would allow herself to go lay with a man who is only willing to give you crumbs? Lay with a man who doesn't care who you have to betray or what you have to do to give him what he wants with very little in return? And do this at the expense of their spouse's sanity? I don't hate the AP in my situation either - but I don't think he's a good man. He used me, and I used him. Take in this is coming from someone who was so delusional at one point in time to believe this man was the love of my life and my soul-mate?

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:29 AM, August 21st (Wednesday)]

I want to say that I admire the fact that you keep coming back on here. I promise this isn't "Pile on" VioletElle day.

We're just trying to get you to see and really understand what a BS, especially a BH, is going through.

Do you know where our expertise comes from?

We've all lived it. I'm not speaking from the perspective of someone who divorced his wife.

When my wife finally woke up and got it, she was willing to move heaven and earth to help me get through this. She didn't and wouldn't put any stipulations on it. If she had, I'd be gone.

It has become easier over time, but I'll say in the first couple of years, she didn't have to put up with any physical abuse, but she did listen to me vent and rage. In that sense, I'm sure it was hell for her. Normally I'm the most laid back easy going guy you've ever met.

I expected her new attitude to last about a week, but you know what? We're still married 3.5 years later. She took her change to heart.

You've got to get to that point.

I know that you've read so much advice on here and it may feel as if some of us are bashing you. I hope that's not the case.

Find the most aggravating advice in your thread. Really study it. Find out why it bothers you so much. Then see if it's because it hits home with you.

Are you willing to move heaven and earth to stay in this marriage?

I want to say that I admire the fact that you keep coming back on here.

Me too! I know some days you probably wonder if it's worth it. I got a lot of hard truths from people too, but eventually that stuff really sinks in. I encourage you to keep reading and trying.

When my wife finally woke up and got it, she was willing to move heaven and earth to help me get through this.

THIS. There is a tipping point that occurs that I think people are trying to get you to see. This is what it takes, anything less will be a failure. Getting to the point that you are working on R effectively is hard as hell, right now the reason people are commenting so much is you don't have the gumption yet to make the climb. I think you think you do, and that's not surprising, I always thought it was going better than it was too. It's part of not having the growth done to look behind you yet and see it from a new perspective.

It has become easier over time, but I'll say in the first couple of years, she didn't have to put up with any physical abuse, but she did listen to me vent and rage. In that sense, I'm sure it was hell for her. Normally I'm the most laid back easy going guy you've ever met.

My H is laid back too. And, yes, the venting and raging is a needed part of their healing. You can't skip over it, otherwise it's just asking them to bury it and then watching it reemerge later, likely in the form of a divorce.

You've got to get to that point.

Yep, preach, Wool. That's exactly right.

Find the most aggravating advice in your thread. Really study it. Find out why it bothers you so much. Then see if it's because it hits home with you.

Great advice! I never thought of it that way, but I will say any time I was defensive or annoyed looking at why was very important for me to really see the error within my thoughts. That's a real problem - our thoughts are guiding everything and we have no real way of sorting them, putting away whats true and not true until we really reflect on each of them. Until then, you are on autopilot just thinking them and letting them steer you in a bad direction.

Thank you hikingout.

She sums it perfectly with this statement.

My H is laid back too. And, yes, the venting and raging is a needed part of their healing. You can't skip over it, otherwise it's just asking them to bury it and then watching it reemerge later, likely in the form of a divorce.

I'm not sure he's hit the anger and rage phase, but believe me, it will come.

Don't make him bury it or apologize for it. You've opened up a can of worms with your affair that I'm sure he's never felt before. The anger and hurt and rage that he feels is almost uncontrollable. You may not believe me, but it's there.

This is a wound that won't heal over night, not in a year, maybe not even in 3 to 5 years.

It really won't heal at all if your not there with him every step of the way to encourage and support him.

When I come here to talk about myself, it's because I don't have an avenue to express these thoughts. I don't sit there berating my husband and making lists of demands and telling him what's what. I'm not some sort of monster. I still have expectations, desires and personal boundaries. He's not really the sort who would accept me talking down to him like that. He's very guarded with his feelings and does have the habit of hiding them. I'm the only person he ever confides in and I'm not sure that's healthy either. I've encouraged him to open up to people, but that just isn't him. The absolute most important thing to him is that nobody ever knows about this, especially the kids. I do hurt for him like nobody can possibly understand.

When wrote about romance, I was writing in the past tense. I did not say it justified the affair, but it was a real problem we were having. It also wasn't all about me. I made it reasonably clear that I put in all kinds of work for him too. I didn't just roll out of bed expecting romance. Just because I had an affair does not mean he didn't have a roll in some of the issues we were having. I also understand that having the affair doesn't put me in a position to make demands. Not that I ever made these sort of demands anyways, just stuff that would have been nice. This wasn't written as a condition, but in response to the way things were before the affair.

I would find it very hard to believe that everyone was just rolling along in perfect marriages that an affair just blew apart. I take responsibility for doing something far beyond the problems we were having but that isn't to say we weren't having any.

Speaking of romance and expectations A man may be hesitant to start the romance if the expectations may lead to a point where the performance may not be up to par.

As I recall, your H gave the meds a shot, but the side effects were unpleasant. If that is still a problem, there are ways to minimize those side effects that may give him a little more confidence when starting the romance. If you are interested, a thread could be started in general which may provide input from different sources.

I don't want this post to be used as providing a excuse, so consider this a pm.