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Responding to HikingOut. I’m sorry, but I’m pretty upset by your response. I rarely ever post on here. Maybe 3 times now? And I’m on the same timeline line as you. Discovered husband’s 4-month long EA and PA end June 2017. I can say I DO NOT believe wayward are good parents. A good parent DOES NOT put themselves ahead of their children. Not ever. They don’t selfishly put their well-being, their security, their family at risk. You can make their beds, provide them with the necessities of life — but the damage a wayward spouse does causes generational, cascading effects. My husband traumatized me and abused me so badly my children had to see their mother go through treatment for PTSD and depression. THEY were the only things that got me out of bed and kept me going. My husband emotionally abandoned me and the kids, “travelling” frequently during his affair, threatening umpteen times to leave us all (saying “kids are resilient”), and staying in hotels six times with his married COW, when he should have been at their recitals or what have you. He was angry and rageful all the time. My kids witnessed that. My kids witnessed the emotional disconnection and fretted and worried and were full of anxiety. They saw the toxicity building up between us. My poor darling babies have suffered, as ALL CHILDREN DO as a consequence of an affair. Given you are in recovery and not cheating now, youare able to dedicate the time and energy and love where it should always have been directed. But please don’t say you were a good mom. Good parents don’t ever jeopardize their kids and grandkids’ futures for their own selfish pleasure or desires. I’m a tv reporter:anchor in a top 3 market and men have thrown themselves at me my entire life. No Politics hit on me in a packed news conference once etc. I have had untold opportunities to cheat. And I’m human. I find other men attractive. But NEVER ONCE did i EVER go anywhere near to crossing the line — because I thought of my children. I could never have hurt them the way my husband has. And btw — I have stayed and tried to work on things, despite the enormous anger and disgust i now have ifor my husband — for my kids. I have thrown out my self-respect, my own peace of mind, staying with someone who I now know values himself MORE than his kids or family. That is a true mind f- I loved him more than anything prior to his affair. I was “his wife, his life” up until 2 months before the affair. He was my best friend since we were teens. 25 years. Destroyed over 4 months of madness. Part of me truly hates him now. I know there must be love somewhere, but I can’t access it behind this wall of pain/defensiveness. Granted, he was psychotic during his affair (diagnosed with a “psychotic break” post DDay) so his abuse may be far more egregious than that of many on here. But I digress. The bottom line is — I don’t want to blow up my kids’ lives. Shuttle them from house to house all week, worry about another woman (or string of women) entering their lives; or worry about the financial, psychological and emotional ramifications. Good parents think about these things. I don’t see how you can argue that a wayward spouse, no matter what they do NOW to make up for the damage, is an inherently good parent.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 10:24 AM, August 15th (Thursday)]

Hiking, do you believe you were an excellent mother during your affair?

I feel a WS can be an excellent parent before, and after, an affair. But not during.

Good mothers don't expose their child's father to potentially deadly stds.

They don't steal time from their family to spend time with an AP. They don't sneak off to the bathroom to text, message, or send dirty pics.

They don't risk their child's family, security, and happiness for an AP.

They certainly dont expose their child to the AP.

They don't devastate their child's other parent.

A good parent puts their children first. A WS is only putting themselves first.

I admit, I am rather surprised by your statement. You know I have tremendous respect for you. But I think you are way off here.

Guys, I am not going to do this with any of you. I am not on trial for being a good or bad mother. My kids are grown and out of the house.

Let me put it to you another way. If I decided instead of an affair to divorce my husband (which would have been a way better moral decision) I would have still been abandoning him. I would have still been changing the trajectory of my kids lives even if they are an adult. This wouldn't make me a bad mom.

I understand that isn't what happened and that I had an affair instead. So, it's not that I don't get that.

And, I am not going to sit on a forum on a thread that is not mine and defend myself or my motherhood. I gave everything I had to those children, and they are successful happy adults. So, say what you want, but I am not going to feel differently and I am sorry if you are offended by that.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:17 AM, August 15th (Thursday)]

Everyone, stop making it personal and speak to your own situation. If someone is talking about their situation and it triggers you, remember, they aren't speaking about YOU, they're speaking about what they went through.

Wifehad5

you said:

Everyone, stop making it personal and speak to your own situation. If someone is talking about their situation and it triggers you, remember, they aren't speaking about YOU, they're speaking about what they went through.

did you mean "speaking to your own situation" ???

One last T/J -

Onlyjan - I just wanted to say I understand exactly what you are saying here and I do agree with what you are saying about your own situation. I am very sorry to hear about what you have gone through and by what you are saying you are one of the BS that I mentioned in my previous post - you are stronger than I will ever be, and I am sure that you have been your childrens hero and saving grace through all of this. I don't want you to think I am discounting what you said at all. Everyone's individual situation is their own. I am sorry I triggered you enough to be your 3rd post.

Divorce would have been better, in my opinion, and had far fewer long-lasting consequences. Cheating breeds cheating. It cascades down the generations. Statistically, if your parent cheated, you are far more likely to do so. And then your children(s)’ progeny are also impacted. The effect is so upsetting to me, particularly given our 11-year-old heard a late-night fight and knows about his infidelity and was heartbroken about it. Just devastated. I will never forget her stricken face, her tears, and am now horrified by her constant expressions of fear and anxiety now (centered on whether or not I will divorce him and whether we will have to move etc). If your kids know, even as adults,!it has hurt them and impacted their world view. (My 34-year-old friend’s father cheated, for example, and she hasn’t spoken to him in 1.5 years. Her hate and anger and disgust has been shocking, even to me.) Their views on relationships in general have been forever impacted. Their ability to trust. The research has shown it shows children people are disposable and replaceable, even if just on a subconscious level. Frankly, I believe it would have been better had my husband died in an accident before all of this. Or if I had died. That would have been merciful. God only knows I wished for death in the months after Dday. I do not currently wish him dead. That wouldn’t change anything at all now. What I’m trying to say is that had he died before inflicting this tremendous harm and damage, we would have loved him, mourned him and moved on. I lost my mother young. It was the most painful thing I had dealt with prior to this. But her death was entirely eclipsed by his infidelity. There is just no comparison. He willfully made the decision to betray and gaslight and lie and deceive — thousands of times — and severely abused me all the while. Had sex with me while sleeping with that other woman (which I view as rape, quite frankly, because I wouldn’t have consented had I known he was cheating), and in so doing he potentially risked my life. My whole reality is altered. My life view has altered. My self- esteem was shattered. My trust in humanity is gone. I lost 22 lbs BEFORE dday (and my hair was falling out in clumps from stress) because I was so confused and hurt and torn by his abhorrent, erratic behaviour and the emotional disconnection. For me, death or divorce would have been far, far kinder. The hurt and damage caused by this kind of betrayal truly seems unfathomable to those who haven’t been on the receiving end. For the first time in my life I had to take medication. I was on Prozac for six months and felt like a zombie. And now, still, the triggers are endless. I see a car like hers — gut punch. Walk past the family-planning section and see condoms — I feel like vomiting. I can’t even bathe my kids without being triggered because I heard him cooing to her (PI recorded their convos) “are you nice and clean, are you nice and clean? Great, I’m coming over to make you dirty.”). Every single day I dwell on what he has done and what he has stolen from me and the children (now 6, 8 and 11). I am well paid. And the divorce attorney told me he would have to pay me a minimum of $6500 a month (likely more). Financially we would get by. But the idea of not being able to see my kids every day is anathema. And, as my WS says, I will always be stuck with him no matter what — dealing with the children and hand overs etc, even if I divorce him. So I’m eternally tethered to him. Even though the man does NOT deserve me. I’m so disgusted. The woman he cheated with was truly stupid (she didn’t even know what HPV was when I asked her if she had ever had an abnormal pap) and had a tremendous overbite and a facial tic. And her character was appalling. She screeched at me “just get over it” as I described how contaminated I feel (I discovered their affair by tasting the condom on him, and assume I’ve consumed her secretions) and asked me what I did “to drive him into her arms” and told me “you made him psychotic!” (Despite the fact his sister, father and grandfather all suffer from serious mental illness). He brought a monster into my life — and it isn’t her. It’s him. I feel defiled, heartbroken and damaged for life. So yes, divorce would have been blindsiding, but far preferable to this. For me and the kids. At this point, 2 years out, I am healthier than I was. But I can honestly say I cried every single day for more than two years straight. I woke screaming from nightmares twice a week, and shaking with diarrhea every morning at 4 am, until I started the Prozac and got the PTSD treatment (a 9-week daily intensive). In the last few months I’ve been getting stronger and have been able to detach far more. But again, divorce or death (even my own) would have been easier than any of this. I am glad my kids have both parents accessible to them every day, however, and I feel that outweighs my own misery and heartache. So while divorce would be the easier route for me — I stay put, outwardly playing happy families, while inwardly I rail and rage.

Wayward here. Sorry to hear you are going on through this. The answers are boundaries and really communicating deeply about everything. What work is he doing to help himself? Yes, I felt I deserved the wrath of fury from my bs but I am a human being too. However, she did a tremendous amount of work to get to where she doesn’t do these things or lays a fingernail on me. She even apologized and does now if she says things other than my name. I had to do my part too. Both sides have to put in the work to eliminate these interactions to allow for resolve and progress. She helped me find compassion for myself. Hope things get better for you.

I don't disagree, jan - for my husband it would have been. For my grown kids, they don't even know it happened. That was my H's choice, not mine. I would have told them had he thought that was best. They all live further off, and he felt we should tell them if we chose divorce so they would understand why. But, he didn't want them to suffer over something that they didn't need to worry about. Right or wrong, that's what he wanted and I agree with it mostly. Though I do feel sometimes that there is an inauthenticity there that I really don't like, but those are my consequences.

I am sorry to hear the details of your situation. I guess my point in my response is not everything is one size fits all. Our situations can be very different. I am confident my kids were raised with security and love and all of the things they should have been. They had good parents.

This does not excuse what I did to my BS, and I don't want my answer to be construed that I don't see how much pain and destruction it has caused him because I truly do. I am truly sorry for what I did and I have worked very hard on myself and our marriage and I continue to do so.

Didn't the (hypothetical) WS consider the ramifications of their actions and decide that an A was a valid life choice? Isn't expecting a WS that had an affair with a COW to quit their job ASAP to get away from their affair partner a reasonable consequence of having an affair? And if they liked their job and/or quality of life so much, wouldn't it have made more sense to not (as the saying goes) "shit where you eat?"

I BONNIE agree I think it is necessary to leave the job just for your own R. How the Hell is a wayward going to even move forward staying in an environment like that even when they are alone. If you want to R, well fuck it is easy you risk everything for the marriage like you risked everything to feed your self serving ego. Now is the time to stop being self centered. Grow the fuck up and start making morally right decisions. Jobs are jobs. Suck it up and work at McDonalds till you find something better. Leaving is a must. A BS doesn't throw this burden onto the family. The wayward did this to the family and chose that risk hoping it would pay off.

Some WSs didn’t consider consequences but should have.

Bullshit. We all did. That is why it is hidden. We all considered. We all chose. We just hoped it wouldn't happen. To call foul after the fact is shitty.

All this post proves is how young children are damaged by a wayward self serving parent. It is disgusting what we did to our children. It is disgusting if it continues after Dday.

Unhinged

I'm more apt to believe that a BS in a world of pain, doubt and fear is far more capable of being a good parent than the WS who willfully self-destructs, blowing up their own lives and the lives of everyone around them.

Except with already abusive BS, I agree. The WS has already proven they are morally and ethically corrupt self serving people that lie and manipulate. That just doesn't magically disappear right after Dday. They willing put their children's well being at risk long before Dday. They didn't give a fuck. Not saying there aren't some BS that take their pain and anger out on their children. I just think there are way far less that would do that to the children that might do that to their WS. Recently it has been the other way around in the news. WS killing their families because the BS is leaving them or to get even. Waywards are not good parents to young children till they begin to change.

I think this whole situation proves you should have divorced your husband a long time ago instead of cheating. Especially if you truly believe he is abusive. I really don't give a rats ass if it is true or not. All that matters is you believe it and you really haven't done anything about it for whatever reasons you have. If it wasn't true, it makes all the more reason to divorce because of it. Not because I believe your husband is at fault. Because you two together are highly toxic and your children are paying for you two being too cowardly to leave each other.

Zugzwang,

I am one who considered consequences and didn’t care. But there are others who say they never thought about it and it’s not my place to say they’re lying.

We will agree to disagree on “risking it all for the marriage.” Jobs can be replaced, but one’s H or W is also not the only man or woman in the world.

Jobs can be replaced, but one’s H or W is also not the only man or woman in the world.

You are right, and someday I will probably replace her permanently. What however can’t be replaced is my family as a complete unit. She destroyed that.

I am one who considered consequences and didn’t care. But there are others who say they never thought about it and it’s not my place to say they’re lying.

I can make it mine. Yes, they're lying.

It is impossible for such a thing to be true, and I think it is a safe bet that the impossible didn't happen. They pretend it did, so yes, they're lying.

We will agree to disagree on “risking it all for the marriage.” Jobs can be replaced, but one’s H or W is also not the only man or woman in the world.

Not at all, you just don't want R, or at least not to a point that it's important to you.

You had no problem destroying the life of an innocent man, and as far as you're concerned that doesn't mean you should accept anything hard to happen to yours.

I think at some point it needs to be pointed out that your situation and the opinions you managed to derive out of it, are not helpful to anyone but to the BS who get an idea of what it is like to try R with someone who won't try.

Well, initially we did not R...we divorced. And no, we are not in “R” now, although we are together. But my opinions are as valid as anyone else’s. Take what you need and leave the rest.

Well, they're valid for people who don't care about what they did to others in the same way you don't care. And who don't care the state of their relationship in the sale way you don't care.

Sure, let people choose what they want to do with your ideas. It's just their basis should be pointed out.

I'm not sure how people who don't care like you don't care, need to be told how to do what they're already doing.

[This message edited by thatcantbetrue at 4:01 PM, August 18th (Sunday)]

Sorry folks, but by having an A a WS has ALREADY “abandoned” their family- this includes their kids.

There are plenty of other threads that discuss having an A vs divorce and impact on kids. There IS a huge difference (I worked in divorce for >20 years).

Absent some prior history of BS abuse/bad parenting, if asked, the WS should move. Even if they were stay at home parents - live somewhere else at night and come home during the day to provide some semblance of stability. There is a WW on SI that did just that - and lo and behold she is now back in the house after giving her BH some frigging headspace and heartspace to figure out how to tie his fucking emotional shoes.

We are in Solomon territory here. No BS (absent history of abuse) should EVER have to leave the home in the aftermath of dday. If s/he chooses to do so, that shows an amazing level of strength and character. Any WS who refuses to leave after Dday is still behaving like an entitled twit. To completely blow up the family and then expect otherwise is classic cheaterthnk - and could someone please explain how THAT is good for kids?

In my sitch, I always believed my WH was an excellent dad - to DD. He was a complete ass to DS (not that I was perfect - I wasn’t). But 19 months out, I think even WH can see how his entitled behavior, conflict avoidance, etc actually harmed DD (not saying that I did not contribute on this front - cuz I did- big time and I’m working my ass off to make amends to her). I think he still believes that his once leaving AP to go to DDs sporting event somehow confirms his “good dad” self image. But our DD has some of the same negative qualities of WH. She cheated on her live in BF before knowing what her dad had been up to (from the time she was 11 to 21), and then TWICE after. She lies. She feels so entitled. She has stolen things.

Bad marriages impact kids - but an affair blows up the family, and leaves everyone - including the kids - really hurt.

But there are others who say they never thought about it and it’s not my place to say they’re lying.

It isn't about my place to say they are lying. Reality makes it so. If you hide it, then they know. It is a cause and effect thing.

It is impossible for such a thing to be true, and I think it is a safe bet that the impossible didn't happen. They pretend it did, so yes, they're lying.

Agree, my perspective might be that the Earth is flat because that is what I see. I know the Earth is round. The truth is the truth. You hide it, you know. The very fact it is called cheating means you know. It really can't be any other way. Your married, you know.

Jobs can be replaced, but one’s H or W is also not the only man or woman in the world.

True jobs can be replaced and I doubt staying at a job that is toxic would help any WS reconcile themselves. I am sure it can be done. Just saying I seriously doubt it is worth it in the long run to stay somewhere that makes you healing yourself and changing that much harder.

Darkness Falls, I still cannot figure out how to quote using my tablet. Anyway, you say you're not in R but I remembered reading an anniversary post from you so I went looking and I found it.

On 06.03.2019 you posted you and your BH were completely reconciled 9 years after DDay and you were looking to have another baby.

Obviously things change and I'm not asking you to share personal details but it seems quite a change in perspective in just 6 months.