SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Might be why you keep up with him, Dee. My response was really to coco because she Said she wasn’t sure why we bothered. I bother because without trying to get him to see different perspectives he is going to replay this whole loop without any interference from anyone.

A woman I like, but find very unattractive, I'd be her friend.

I read of at least one study of a college psych class in which the prof asked the class members to pick out the classmate(s) they wanted to date.

At the beginning of the class, people tended to pick the best looking members. Later in the class, after the members worked together on projects, the same question was asked.

The results were much different - people picked dates much more on the basis of personality fit.

Just sayin'....

I see RIO differently. I think he is a loop from his trauma.

I think that's the biggest reason RIO continues to address this particular topic at every turn.

I also think he utilizes spurious sources to validate some of the less informed aspects of what men and women presumably want from physical intimacy. Too many 'always' and 'never' elements to some of these conclusions.

The key is getting from our partners what we need without one or the other being used and abused. And that's tough enough in relationships overall, much less those of us who have experienced the trauma of infidelity.

I understand that loop. I was stuck there in the same spot.

At some point in the healing process I had to go with the idea that yes indeed, some of the A sex was great but then some of it wasn't so great. And none of it included me.

Far more important is how my overall life is with my wife. From the bedroom to the kitchen, and on a walking trail and picking out a movie or a bottle of wine together.

With so many souls here struggling, I don't like to offer my current married sex life in year four -- because it feels like I'm bragging. But I can say, based on anything my wife described (even the 'great' stuff) with AP hasn't got a thing in the world do with how awesome a time we have now without our clothes on.

As to porn -- I'm not sure how scientific it is with the claims here -- but it's only ever a purely physical representation of optimal, animal, caveman stuff. It's great if people are bored and need ideas but it has little to do with how or why sex is great with my wife.

Sex is great now because we've reconnected on an emotional level we've never been before. We push boundaries now out of pure joy that we're even still together, despite the Hell of the past.

We don't film anything, but I've seen my share of porn -- and that stuff ain't got nothin' on us.

Ok, ok.. Man, drop a bomb, step away for a day, see what happens!

First, let me start by saying, I do appreciate the opinions and insight. I do. Yes, it's hard for me, and perhaps will prove impossible at some point to square this one off in my mind. I just have too much experience to the contrary, and, of course, a festering wound for my "believing" what you are saying now. I did believe it. In fact, some of the arguments you've all made, I would have made before the A. No, of course men who you love get the "best". And of course you care more about their satisfaction than some rando. I would have argued those points pretty hard in fact, because I had a basis in my mind that was built around the idea that "nice guys are "rewarded" and the "right answer". And, frankly, the last part, I still agree with, they are the "right answer", but the first? Well, that's hard to agree with after my experience, both before I met my W and of course, after the A.

However, let me say, of the few posters here who are trying to help me through this, AFAIK, none of you actually did this in your A. Yes, of course this seems ridiculous, you all seem to have followed the other script, the one where "nice guys are rewarded" and gave your husbands all the good stuff. You may have given the same to the AP (but, IIRC, at least some of you did not, your H had sexual access that the AP never got), but you did not deny your H something and give it to the AP. And perhaps that's the real disconnect, you can't relate to my story because, in your eyes, it's ridiculous, of course your H gets "your best" sexually. But that is not my story. And, I'm kind of surprised some of the other BH's haven't piped in, but for at least a few of us here, that's not our story.

Flipping it around for a minute, if I'd had the A, and was reading this thread, I'd probably say the exact same thing you are saying. Of course my W got the best; she could have whatever she wanted from me sexually. The AP got what I felt like giving her, and it sure wasn't to the same level as what I had with my W. I relate, because, I'd bet money, if I had an A, and related every single sexual thing I did, there wouldn't be a single thing on that list that my W would say "Oh, I can't believe you did that with her and wouldn't with me". So, yeah, this thread would look ridiculous to me, because I don't "hold things back" from my W. Remember my rating scale; more attracted means "more access"? Well, my W has "most". Actually, that's not right, she has "any, without limits", and she knows it. Peg away, if it's us, together, while it might not be the best physical sensation for me, I'm going to say "yes" and I'm going to do my very best to enjoy it.

And, if that's the lens you took with your H; well, yeah, this looks silly/stupid and ridiculous. But that is NOT the lens my W took with me. I had very, very defined barriers, "finger on clit, OK, fingers in vagina, no, touching ass, HELL NO". Yes, I had sexual access, but in a very narrow range of what I would consider my "normal" sexuality. If I sat and made a list of acts, I'm sure I could come up with at least 30 that were "NO WAYS" with her. So, yeah, perhaps my situation is unique, and it's certainly not at all what you guys are saying about your relationships with your H's, I get that. However, I don't think it's unique at all, in fact, I think it's pretty darn common. You all are just very sexually open wives, which, god bless you all and thank you for giving me hope that it does exist, but.. I just don't think you're the norm; shoot, I know a guy who's wife literally will not get naked in front of him with the lights on. And that's far, far more common (well, OK, not that particular thing, but a wife having some pretty significant sexual hangups) than I think you guys might think.

Shoot, in my JFO thread years ago, guys PM'ed me quite frequently to "clue me in" to this particular aspect of an A. "Get ready for it". And, at least in my case, they were right. And we have plenty of other "yeah, you were right" stories here. Perhaps the biggest difference is that, in every case I can remember, the H moved to D. Am I the only guy who's wife went full porn star and is still trying to R? I don't think so, but, I don't think there are many of us here, probably because this is a bit of poison pill; if it happens, it's generally the end.

I love my W dearly, I think that lots of posters here know that, and I do want to R. But I am mightly f**ked up from this. And, of course, D would be tremendously easier and would resolve this issue for me (at least with my W, I think the scar would still be there though, and I'm sure I'd f**k up at least a few new relationships because of this lens and trauma).

Now it’s time to unravel the harder stuff but I feel like he is afraid of that (or maybe values it less) to some degree and he is more comfortable in the sex loop he previously was in...in at least how he wants to participate in this board.

Well, that's somewhat true, but not entirely. I read, well, most of the threads posted on this board every day. I literally have no basis or idea how to unravel the "harder stuff". I'm not even sure what the "harder stuff" is. I read about people "emotionally reconnecting" and I literally have no idea what actions they took, what did they do, and what does it mean. So I read those threads to learn, I have nothing to add to them because I'm just not a very emotional person. Probably like we have some near asexual people here who read threads I post on and think "well, that's interesting, but I've got nada to add to that". I just can't wade into those conversations because I'm gonna get killed by, well, basically a 12 year old in that particular arena. I suck at it, and I don't even know what I suck at, or what I'm trying to learn how to do. There aren't stats to quote, there aren't references, there's nothing I can read that seems to help (and I've read a lot of books). I just don't "get it", probably like some people (not, incidentally, the posters who commonly engage on this topic) "don't get" what "good sex" actually means to someone like me. I don't get what "good emotional connection" means to them.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 4:29 PM, October 11th (Friday)]

To be fair, RIO, I could take my experience and say that men don't give their wives the crazy sex they want but they instead put them in a mother role and go outside of the marriage to get the good stuff. Madonna/whore complex.

And you know what? That exists. So does the wife who isn't adventurous with her husband but is with an AP. Both of those stereotypes have enough reality to them. Your stereotype doesn't relate to me and mine wouldn't relate to you. You can't imagine giving your wife only vanilla sex because otherwise you wouldn't respect her enough, right?

The danger is when we start assuming that these stereotypes are what most everyone is like.

I do have empathy for your experience, though. It seems like although we are opposite genders, we had a very similar issue with our partners being vanilla with us and seeking more exciting sex outside of the marriage. It is a real wound and it is seriously painful. It is devastatingly painful. It has messed with both of our identities a bit. I do get it.

Why do these threads always end up taking about WWs who could win Olympic gold for sex with their APs but no-one mentions the WHs who have ignored their wives sexually for years but are all over their OW!

I've read countless threads about WHs who either just ignored their wives or crawled on and off, then there are the ones who cried ED but refused medication for their wives but ran to the doctor for their AP!

God forbid we criticize their performance though

Why do these threads always end up taking about WWs who could win Olympic gold for sex with their APs but no-one mentions the WHs who have ignored their wives sexually for years but are all over their OW!

By all means, mention away! This issue really isn't gender specific, it just kind of seems that way because it's usually men posting in these threads (as a BH). But I am sure, in fact, I know a few, BW's who's husband did the same to them, good stuff for the AP, and duty sex for the W. Unacceptable in either direction.

I understand the trauma and the loop. If the script stuck to,"This is what happened to me. This is what my CP. This is where the stuck with that," I could understand.

That's not what happens, though. It's always the same thing. "The guys I know do this, so it must be this way for everyone. My CW did this, so it must be this way for everyone. This is how I think (I don't feel), so it must be this way for everyone. It doesn't make sense any other way."

That's not someone who is open to different POVs and really considers what other people have experienced and are saying. You can say the same thing over and over 50 million different ways. You can't get through to someone who refuses to listen.

That kind of trauma probably needs to be dealt with in therapy.

HO, I don't think the ideas on sex have come from the experience with the A. I think they were formed long before M was even a consideration. How many times have you read, "I loved having sex for the sake of sex. I lied to women to get sex. I thought that was what they wanted because that's what I wanted,"? You have to have a really big ego to assume that everyone else thinks just like you do regardless of what they tell you. Someone with an ego like that isn't going to hear what you are saying the 100th time you say it anymore than he is gp I'll ng to hear it the 1st time you say it.

Am I the only guy who's wife went full porn star and is still trying to R?

Nope.

After hanging out in the R forum for 3+ years, there are a bunch of men trying to understand the extra effort their WS put in for their AP and not the M.

I'm one of 'em.

I only ever post in a thread if I feel like there is some bit of my experience that can help someone through. It doesn't seem like anything from me is helping, yet I'll give it another go.

..."don't get" what "good sex" actually means to someone like me.

After reading a few hundred of your posts about how important it is to you, I've got some idea. But as with any personal perspective, only you can define what good sex is....to you.

I don't get what "good emotional connection" means to them.

And this part is where I think you can find a way through. Based on what you've described pre-A and post A, you've not revealed a lot about how much of this you've communicated to your wife. I'll bet she understands better than any of us here how important 'good sex' is to you, but maybe she doesn't realize how much damage was caused.

When my wife was able to understand the extent of her extra effort with the AP hurt me, that as much as I shouldn't take it personal, I did anyway. Because I can tell her that, often, and she hears me -- that's where the good emotional connection stuff kicked in. Our connection now crushes anything we had before, and whatever AP got, at this point, doesn't haunt me as it did those first couple of years.

Bottom line, the best sex to me is only possible when the person I'm with is totally into me and the other way around. I can hate how we got here, but love what we're capable of now, really knowing what the other wants and needs. At least, that's how I understand connection.

"I loved having sex for the sake of sex. I lied to women to get sex. I thought that was what they wanted because that's what I wanted,"? You have to have a really big ego to assume that everyone else thinks just like you do regardless of what they tell you.

No, you just have to be honest. There's no ego in that statement at all, in fact, I've mentioned several times that I deeply regret what I did, I truly did not know. I was raised in a time when "men and women enjoy sex just the same". If that is/was true, there wasn't harm in what I was doing because I enjoyed it, and "it was the same". No, not the deepest thought I've had, I'll give you that, but that is truly what I believed. And maybe women do enjoy sex as much as a "typical man" and I was just atypical. That's possible. Either way, I was working from a flawed basis, but not a flawed basis that I invented, one that was implanted there by the messaging being touted at that time.

You can say the same thing over and over 50 million different ways. You can't get through to someone who refuses to listen.

I'd say that feeling is mutual.

When my wife was able to understand the extent of her extra effort with the AP hurt me, that as much as I shouldn't take it personal, I did anyway.

How on earth are you not supposed to "take it personal". It's the most "personal" thing I can imagine! Sure, don't take it personal, my loving wife, that I eloped with you and refused to buy you a ring, but bought the AP a 4 ct diamond as a celebration of our 2nd date. I get what you're saying, try not to take it personally, and I think that's good advice. But it's clearly a personal affront. Perhaps it doesn't deliver the "obvious" message (in either case, the wife who never got a diamond or the husband who never got the hot sex) intentionally, and perhaps we're collateral damage, but.. Yeah, it's personal; I prefer him/her more than you. I'm not sure what could be more personal honestly.

That's not what happens, though. It's always the same thing. "The guys I know do this, so it must be this way for everyone. My CW did this, so it must be this way for everyone. This is how I think (I don't feel), so it must be this way for everyone. It doesn't make sense any other way."

It's a point of view. It's all I have to offer. It's all any of us have to offer. If you look at my posts, your posts, or really any other prolific poster, we're all advancing our own viewpoints on the issues that a poster presents. Yes, if it's a male BS, I'm going to present my viewpoint on it, and I think I typically do it in a reasonable way, unlike other posters who often put the BH on "blast". And maybe you do think I do that, I don't feel that way, but hey, I'm emotionally dead inside anyway, so what do I know?

Yes, I explain what I think and why I think that way. And I could just as easily say the same about posters who do nothing but "feel" without any thinking behind it. Do you know the stats? Do you understand the typical motivations? Have you read the research? A lot of people, I know, have not. But that does NOT mean their viewpoints aren't valuable, it means they are different. I prefer viewpoints that can be supported with stats, research or, on sites that allow it, links to data that can help people understand the likely reality; not feelings (again, emotionally dead).

Also, the final thing I'll tell you, a poster like me, without getting overly dramatic, may have saved my life. He (metaphorically, it was lots of men) PM'ed me, told me to "get ready for it", and then, when my worst fears were recognized, I was prepared for it. I didn't react badly, I knew it was coming, but, if it had just fallen in my lap, I really have no idea what I would have done. To say that I had my world fall apart hearing the admission of the porn star sex would be an understatement, it was like my whole marriage was a lie. And I know other people get this same experience, either in the sexual details or in other ways, it's not uncommon and it's devastating for someone like me. Perhaps you are right, I'm just a weird, egotistical asshole who's not able to see the forest through the trees. And I'm only talking to myself, others don't have this issue or hangup. Perhaps that's it...

Yeah, it's personal; I prefer him/her more than you. I'm not sure what could be more personal honestly.

If AP was truly preferred, why is your wife still around? Why is she choosing you and why are you choosing to stay?

Of course we all take it deeply personally at first.

Infidelity is an affront.

Then we get new information, we learn, we move forward.

Infidelity is about someone feeling lesser than, in some way, that validation is needed beyond the relationship they're in. That has nothing do with who any of us are, we all get betrayed by people who grabbed the most broken and selfish way to temporarily escape who THEY are.

As a divorced guy I have neither Affair Sex nor Married Sex. I have a different perspective.

RIO, by your standards, I have to say that wouldn't your WW's "limited menu" indicate limited desire on her part? If you applied the same standards to women as to yourself, choosing a woman with a higher drive may have been better, instead of pedestalizing your now WW. This is all manosphere 101 stuff.

The divorced sex is better than the married sex for me. I do not know if the connection is better, or if it just nothing left to use. That the experience is more intense with all of the neuroses burned off in the heat of battle.

I do more things as a lover, my performance is better. Trust I suppose is improving over time. Will never be what it was. It is a long slow dance.

Ok, chiming in with yet another thing about these threads that annoy the hell out of me.

These threads make it sound as if APs everywhere are having porn level sex. The usual suspects who respond here are all open, sexually confident adventurous (from the sound of their replies) people. You know what - that's great, it really is but I bet a majority of the women at least who post here fall into the satisfying but vanilla sex life category.

Now it's not enough to be cheated on, a BW reads how their WH had this porn sex with their AP so what do they do? Do they try and match it in the hope their WH never strays again, it's just another level of insecurity! On the other hand I've read of BWs doing the opposite of BHs and taking sex acts off the table completely, eg no more BJs ever but I've never heard a BH using this kind of punitive action...

Edited to add: Ugh I don't know if I actually managed to make my point here, hopefully someone understood

[This message edited by Carissima at 3:28 AM, October 12th (Saturday)]

Now it's not enough to be cheated on, a BW reads how their WH had this porn sex with their AP so what do they do? Do they try and match it in the hope their WH never strays again, it's just another level of insecurity!

That is the angle that RIO seems to overlook. From my understanding he seems to state that if women would throw themselves relentlessly at their men, their men wouldn’t fuck around. I still don’t understand how that perspective would work the other way around, because from what I understand is he believes women only give a fuck about sex if they are into their partner. So we have a cart before the horse problem, or a if she isn’t taking facials and anal after the first encounter, don’t marry her because she isn’t into you problem.

Look Carissima, RIO doesn’t speak for men in general. His perspectives is just that, his. Myself and others have spent time in the past stating just that, but he posts much more frequently and passionately then we do, so his posts get noticed. If a person were to spend time re-reading this thread, they’d notice one name, one view repeating itself.

Personally I think it’s bullshit that he’s been able to consistently and constantly try and speak on behalf of men in general, but also women. This will probably get me in shit, but fuck it, something does need to change, we have guidelines for a reason. I have brought up RIO’s use of generalizations with the mods several times and nothing changes. I don’t understand why. Rules exist, follow them or fuck off. Yes I see the irony, in breaking guidelines myself by saying what I just did, but when is it enough?

I have no problem in RIO speaking fro his own perspective. How his wife’s affair hurt him and how. After all that is what SI is about, but that’s not what get. Instead it’s these never ending gender based stereotypes and generalizations. Part of me thinks he believes he’s doing this because he see’s himself as a voice for men, and is well intentioned, but very narrow minded. Another part just doesn’t get it all and can’t help but wonder if he even see’s the pain that is caused from his poorly based ideology. I guess that depends on how many perspectives he’s willing or able to consider. Sadly, it doesn’t seem to be very many.

But I do get what you’re trying to say and all I can offer in return is to be mindful that no matter what he says, he can only speak for himself.

What's interesting to me is the range of experiences on this regard. RIO's description of his WW's A puts her as somewhat of an outlier, out in that 2% of the bell curve range, in terms of going from 5 mph in the marriage to 1,000 mph in the A, in a very short time span.

Over in JFO, right now, there is an active thread by a newly minted BH whose WW has a high sex drive in the marriage. She travels frequently for work and hobby. He learned that she has an occasional fuck buddy whom she has sex with on the road. No declarations of love. Very little texting or email. And the sex is pretty much a quick in & out, using Jimmies every time, just a little maintenance dick to keep her sanity until she gets back home.

I think that this can speak to the underlying "why" of the A. In the case of the ongoing thread, the WW is a high sex drive individual, she has rationalized her poor marital boundaries under the theory of "BH gets whatever he wants whenever he wants, so why put the extra to waste?".

In RIO's case, my own personal theory is that she always had an inner freak wanting to come out, but didn't realize it. AP found the key to open the magic door. Maybe I'm wrong, but I gather she hasn't complained all these years about riding the freak train with RIO at home.

Ride it out-

I understand that I didn’t have an affair where the AP didn’t get the “good stuff” but honestly it was more likely lack of opportunity. The sexual encounters were over a couple of days and it was over not long after that. The thing you fail to realize is affair mentality- especially when it was limerant/exit has a lot of the same common threads. Over in the wayward forum we have all discussed our similarities to the extent that there are even things I would have never dreamed were common traits. I get that your pain over it might be different because if the edges she pushed and not with you, but her mentality likely wasn’t much different than the stories we have heard thousands of times.

Your wife was in a desperate time in her life, and she held her resentments and disappointments squarely on your

Back. In reality she was more broken than you are able to connect with. I don’t think it’s you have the incapacity to understand I just think you aren’t ready to accept it because it also might mean she is holding that’s same desperation by being sexually inauthentic with you for the same reasons - to win you back. And honestly I think that is too much for you to take in at the moment. Your wife either had or still has a self worth issue - it’s also why she is an avoider.

While I rarely chime into this topic for various reasons, I can see the direction this one is headed (just like all the others). There are two points I want to make from my perspective:

Rio,

You are in horrific pain from this aspect that much is clear. However, I do tend to agree that there are often times your pain does paint a picture that this is the same for all affair situations and I struggle with how to help you see that isn't the case.

Each affair and the sexual aspects of it are 100% unique to the dynamics of that triangular relationship. They why's behind why a WS makes the choices they do during and also the why's of why a BS makes the choices and has the views they do.

For context and hoping it helps you see this a little differently.

I am a BS who's wife did things she does not do at home. However, its not as simple as her refusing, why? I've never asked. Why have I not asked? My Madonna/whore view point (Good girls/wifes don't do that), my own past traumas and my upbringing. All of these have culminated in the fact that "act" 1, I can't ever conceive of physically doing and "act" 2, I have no desire as I find that very disrespectful to womean (just my opinion). So this then has created further issue by being told on D Day, part of the affair was due to us being "stale" and me being "vanilla". Further compound it by me being sandwiched between me (prior relationships and her AP) in which she was cheap and vulgar sexually....E.g. I was the only one to ever have an emotionally charged and respectful sexual relationship with her. The damage this has done to me runs deep as well. But for different reasons. I am sure my wife had I ever asked for either act because of her own brokenness would have said yes. As to your belief, that's what men want. Nope, not all men. Again because of the reasons, I outlined above, I am probably in the minority, I don't want Porn Star Sex. I view it degrading to both parties, vulgar and cheap. Am I a prude? By no means. I've spent my time with the headboard hitting the wall, etc. Was it enjoyable/ Sure. Was it fulfilling? Nope. Again part of those actions were attributed to the above but also, its what was supposed to happen with women you weren't involved in romantically. Sure, I could push the boundaries in relationships to a degree. But for the love of my life, I pushed it less (the opposite of you). So my point is, one size doesn't fit all. Sure, my WW gave the AP things I didn't get at home. But that's on me, I never asked (because again, I didn't want them for various reasons). She gave it up to AP, not because he was the love of her life, but it's what was expected of her and what she thought men wanted. In fact, one of the acts was performed because I wouldn't and she thought she was "defective".

Another posted mentioned she thought you were stuck in a pain loop and I agree with this. I fall into this trap as well, until something can make sense (or I can make it fit into the puzzle), I come back to it, over and over, and over...…

What are you doing aside from getting some of this out on SI to help come to terms with this, express the pain and move forward? Are you using mindfulness techniques? Discussing an action plan with your IC? EMDR? Tapping? have you journaled this out, did a rage room in the basement exercise? Etc? It might be in one of your other threads and I've missed it, but I'd be curious what you else you are/have done to help with this one.

If AP was truly preferred, why is your wife still around? Why is she choosing you and why are you choosing to stay?

The first question, I'd pay a lot of money to really know the answer to. Sure, you could be right, I'm the "preferred partner". I hope that's true. But there are a million other reasons that are far less comforting that could also be true. He wouldn't have her full time/would not D. I make a good income and together we have a pretty amazing lifestyle, she would have lost that with the AP. As to the 2nd question, that one I can answer definatievely, I love her. I've got a million reasons to leave and one that keeps me here. Where, for her, the situation is different, I wouldn't say she has a million reasons to stay, but she has a lot of them, and some of them have nothing to do at all with me, but the other aspects of our relationship that are more material.

I have to say that wouldn't your WW's "limited menu" indicate limited desire on her part? If you applied the same standards to women as to yourself, choosing a woman with a higher drive may have been better, instead of pedestalizing your now WW. This is all manosphere 101 stuff.

That is exactly how it feels, although, the gist of this thread is discussing the opposite. That there are lots of other reasons for the "limited menu" that have nothing to do with "limited desire". But yeah, I can't argue with this because, you just neatly summed up my "loop". And, while you touched the 3rd rail by mentioning the manosphere, yes, that is something that they would say too.

These threads make it sound as if APs everywhere are having porn level sex.

They are. There I'm sure there some A sex going on right now that has some "porn level" stuff going down. However, I think you mean "all AP's are having porn level sex", I don't think that's true at all. But there are some, I can introduce you to at least one, and there have been a few other WS's who've chimed in through the years to indicate, yeah, they did it too. I would bet lots of money on a few things, it's not all A's, in the A's where there's porn level sex that doesn't mean it's good sex for both APs, and finally, there are at least some A's that are full porn star.

Now it's not enough to be cheated on, a BW reads how their WH had this porn sex with their AP so what do they do? Do they try and match it in the hope their WH never strays again, it's just another level of insecurity! On the other hand I've read of BWs doing the opposite of BHs and taking sex acts off the table completely, eg no more BJs ever but I've never heard a BH using this kind of punitive action...

That's up to them (the BW). Do they want porn level sex? If so, I'd argue the door has been opened and they should have every expectation of getting it. Do they do it to keep their BH? I'd suggest they don't, but I'd be a hypocrite in that suggestion because I certainly tried to up the "porn level emotional closeness" coming out of the A to give my wife more of what she was looking for from the AP. No, I don't think that's right, in fact, every part of me thinks that's rewarding the cheater, but, it's what I did. I actually do recall at least one BH who "took things off the table" (would not perform oral sex on his wife anymore), but, agree with you, it's rare.

From my understanding he seems to state that if women would throw themselves relentlessly at their men, their men wouldn’t fuck around.

Then you misunderstand me. Yes, I do hold that at least some, and, in my personal experience, most of the male affairs I know about are driven by sex. But, that doesn't mean that the BW throwing herself at the WH would have "fixed it". There's a spectrum here; some men who are having a A's for sex are really "sex starved", their wives don't desire sex with them at all anymore (or, to the Madonna/whore, they don't desire sex with their W's anymore). They are cheating because they are hungry. Might be their own fault they are hungry (in fact, I'd argue, the majority of cases I know about, this would be true), but if they weren't hungry, they may not have cheated. Then there's the other cheat who's just a glutton. The guy who goes to the all you can eat buffet, sticks half of it in his backpack and eats that while he drives to McDonalds. There's no amount of sex that will satisfy this guy, nothing the BW can do to help with this hunger. And I'd say that these two motivations are pretty different.

My W is a good example of this, although, not for sex. I'm an emotionally shallow person. I don't talk about emotions much. My wife was an "emotional anorexic" and the OM offered it up. If I'd been more emotionally available/comforting/present, no, I don't think she would have had the interest she did. She wasn't a glutton, she cheated for something that she really wasn't getting at home. This DOES NOT make it right!! But it does help me understand, should I choose to do so, what it is that my W wants more of in our relationship.

Yes I see the irony, in breaking guidelines myself by saying what I just did, but when is it enough?

LOL, I'm glad you recognized that, and, I can't say your wrong. I do get messages from mods, and I apologize and try to do better (apparently, not successfully). The no generalizing rule is very hard for me, because that's how I view the world, I generalize situations to try to get to the core of them. And, it's a fine line, I'm sure going through this thread, most of us (perhaps me most of all, no argument there) generalized in our posts. I try to keep it to "why I feel this way" and "my personal experience or discussions with other men has led me to believe", but it's hard. Especially when there are so many juicy stats out there that either support a point or invalidate it (in general, of course, which is why we're not allowed to link them). But it's not for lack of trying, it really isn't.

Part of me thinks he believes he’s doing this because he see’s himself as a voice for men, and is well intentioned, but very narrow minded.

Part of you would be right. But it's not like I'm picking up this banner for the heck of it, I'm interested in this topic and feel passionately about it because of my personal experience. And, as I said in a previous post, I do sometimes feel like we can fall into "echo chamber" here. There used to be a few other male posters who had a similar viewpoint to my own, and when we'd start posting together, without contrasting viewpoints, it would get boring and frankly, I don't think any of learned anything from the conversation. If we're not going to challenge one another; well, we can just publish the FAQ's for infidelity and all go back to our morning coffee.

RIO's description of his WW's A puts her as somewhat of an outlier, out in that 2% of the bell curve range, in terms of going from 5 mph in the marriage to 1,000 mph in the A

I'd agree with that, I do think my personal experience (both pre marriage personally and my W's A behavior) certainly puts me as an outlier. I think it's more common than 2% though, you won't need to look long on A recovery websites that are directed at men before you find them talking about this. But I concede, I don't think it's the majority either. It's pretty easy to see that's not the case, because, as we've seen in this thread, there are some BW/WW's who make it "impossible" for that to happen. I won't call anyone out by name, but, if you're already going 1000MPH in your marriage, and that's all the plane has got to give, it's just impossible to go "faster" than that. So, some people have "insulation" against this issue (men and women), by virtue of leaving no stone unturned in their M.

In RIO's case, my own personal theory is that she always had an inner freak wanting to come out, but didn't realize it. AP found the key to open the magic door. Maybe I'm wrong, but I gather she hasn't complained all these years about riding the freak train with RIO at home.

Probably. And no she hasn't. And now I'm going to go throw up.

In reality she was more broken than you are able to connect with. I don’t think it’s you have the incapacity to understand I just think you aren’t ready to accept it because it also might mean she is holding that’s same desperation by being sexually inauthentic with you for the same reasons - to win you back. And honestly I think that is too much for you to take in at the moment. Your wife either had or still has a self worth issue - it’s also why she is an avoider.

I hope your right. This is another one where I read the words, they sound (in fact, they are) dead on, but I have no idea what to make of them or what to do about it. Trust me, I think all the time about "by being sexually inauthentic with you for the same reasons". I hope that you're wrong. But I can't say that I think you're wrong; in some ways, I think you're more right than I am. But, let's say you're 100% right, and everything "added" since the A is inauthentic and done out of desperation. OK, now what? And that's not me being difficult, it's a real question. It's been years. She's in IC, I'm in IC, we're in MC. I (obviously) post here often and read here voraciously. We talk frequently about the A. I have a full timeline from both her and the AP, and finally, after many revisions, they are pretty similar to one another. I feel I have "the story", his motivations, her motivations, and what actually happened.

So, if I "take it in" today, what do I do tomorrow? Let's make it concrete, we lay down in bed tonight, my W says, "Hey there RIO, would you like to <insert some new post-A act that's now on the menu> with me, I've been thinking about it all day". Well, of course my answer will be some version of "hell yeah" and "been dreaming about this from the day we met". But, real answer or not, I'd wonder exactly what you're saying. Is this something she wants to do? Is this authentically given? I wonder that, all the time, about pretty much everything post A, so, not hard to imagine myself thinking that in this hypothetical. Anyway, she drops that bomb, now what? Do I take her word that "yes means yes"? Do I decline and tell her it's because she's inauthentic? Do I pretend I don't want it and decline? Again, this is a real question, this happens with some frequency in my house now, shocking as it is for me to say that, and no matter what people may think of me, I am horrified by the thought of hurting her, hence the reason I controlled and buried all the desires for lots of sexual things that she'd declined in the past.

But for the love of my life, I pushed it less (the opposite of you).

Actually, not the opposite of me at all. I did exactly the same thing, I "pushed less" for the headboard breaking sex because I loved her, and she said that wasn't something she enjoyed. If she was a ONS or random hookup, I would have just moved on (if it was an important thing to me, as some of my W's hangups were) or moved past it (there are, believe it or not, some things that while I'd like to do, really don't matter much to me, it's kind of like a "did to to do it" thing, not something I particularly enjoy). However, where we differ, it sounds like some of those things you really didn't want to do. You had no desire for them, you like vanilla and were getting it. Now, 2nd part, I love vanilla too! But I did have a desire for them, and made those desires known, so that part is a bit different.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 8:17 AM, October 12th (Saturday)]

I also agree with RIO because my EX also did a LOT of things that she would never do with me. When we could discuss it years later this is what she told me, "If I had done that with you it would have been about your sexuality not mine, this way it was MY sexuality"!

We never got back together because it was an exit affair. However before she could leave me she felt she had to destroy me personally because; "I couldn't leave you when you were strong"!

She accomplished this by destroying my confidence! (I was an air traffic controller - confidence is REQUIRED in that job)

So while some here may not appreciate RIO's take on this he DOES speak my reality also. Thanks RIO.

JMO YMMV

[This message edited by Candyman66 at 11:48 AM, October 12th (Saturday)]