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36, I have criticized your WW as remorseless and incapable of R. However, in fairness to her, you did create and enforce an environment in which the two of you were stuck in limbo for the better part of 2 years. Therefore, though I generally am on the side of the BH, I do feel that you hold responsibility for why you feel stalled or in irons in terms of determining whether R might or might not be possible.

Butforthegrace:

I've been pondering your comments above for the past couple of days. I am trying not to be highly critical of your comment, but it sounds a bit harsh.

How did I create and enforce an environment in which the two of us were stuck in limbo for the better part of 2 years?

Was it created because I refused to rush to divorce? How exactly did I create the limbo environment?

I came to SI, in September 2017, a jumbled mess. I was new to being a BS. I did the best I could with the broken heart and mind that was the result of D-day. I spent time working with police and oversight officials to deal with the POSOM and her workplace. I did my research. I did part of the 180, but decided it wasn't entirely for me. I went to IC. Despite being in shock, I tried to be thoughtful and methodical in my approach to a resolution.

Was I in limbo? Hell yeah. Did I cause it or merely experience it?

There seems to be a mindset among many on SI that there is one approach to infidelity. I chose a different way. It took me time, but I eventually chose the right way for me.

Blaming me for being in Limbo feels akin to blaming me for my wife's affair.

I generally lean toward thoughtfulness when I approach a problem. My personality is such that I try to examine a problem thoroughly, before making a decision. This is especially true when a problem is big, such as investing in a business, buying a new house or dealing with infidelity in my marriage.

Over the past two years my emotions have looked like an EKG. Up and down repeatedly. Despite the emotional trauma, the logical part of me has been thinking this problem through.

In the beginning I dealt with my wife's lame "I'm sorry" repeated over and over again. now I am approaching the situation differently than in the past. While my approach may not meet up to your standards or the clear thinking of the SI community, neither you nor SI lives my life or loves my wife.

I'm sorry means nothing unless it is accompanied by changed behavior.

I'm sorry means nothing unless it is accompanied by changed behavior.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

s'whatimsayin'

If I had a dollar for every, "I'm sorry. I don't know what else to say." I'd be a rich woman. Comforted or understood, not exactly.

How did I create and enforce an environment in which the two of us were stuck in limbo for the better part of 2 years?

Forgive me if I have the facts wrong. My understanding of the chronology is that, at some point after Dday, you moved out of the family home and into an apartment, where you resided for the better part of the last 2 years, and that during that time your interactions with your WW were minimal and mostly "grey rock" (devoid of much emotion). You didnt devote time with her attempting to R, nor file a D.

Assuming that is what happened, it created a circumstance in which nothing could change nor advance for either of you. Separation but no D. Occasional conversation, but no R. Limbo.

I have been supportive of you, and remain so. As I have said many times, your WWs lack of remorse is striking, and the insult meter of her A is off the chart. I completely understand that you were profoundly traumatized by the events. I also understand the desire to be methodical. But my impression is that everything you have done has been completely internal to you. A marriage is a relationship. Even a broken marriage. It requires interaction. Active engagement.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 5:40 PM, October 16th (Wednesday)]

Forgive me if I have the facts wrong. My understanding of the chronology is that, at some point after Dday, you moved out of the family home and into an apartment, where you resided for the better part of the last 2 years, and that during that time your interactions with your WW were minimal and mostly "grey rock" (devoid of much emotion). You didnt devote time with her attempting to R, nor file a D.

Essentially correct

Assuming that is what happened, it created a circumstance in which nothing could change nor advance for either of you. Separation but no D. Occasional conversation, but no R. Limbo.

Her affair created the circumstance.

I have been supportive of you, and remain so. As I have said many times, your WWs lack of remorse is striking, and the insult meter of her A is off the chart. I completely understand that you were profoundly traumatized by the events. I also understand the desire to be methodical. But my impression is that everything you have done has been completely internal to you. A marriage is a relationship. Even a broken marriage. It requires interaction. Active engagement.

Yes, a relationship needs to be interactive. It would be interactive had my WS not had her affair with a POSOM. The current state of interaction is slightly more than minimal.

Her affair created the circumstance.

Agree 100%.

If there is one refrain repeated and reinforced to every betrayed spouse here on SI, it is: "Take action to get yourself out of infidelity."

Your WW's A placed you in a state of being "in infidelity."

For a BS, there are only two directions out of infidelity: D or R. You did neither. You failed to take action to get out of infidelity; hence you have caused yourself to remain in infidelity, and in limbo, for 2 years. That was your choice.

There are plenty of BS's here who remain in infidelity by rugsweeping, but you are the only one I can think of who remained in infidelity via simple inaction. This is why I say that you created a circumstance that placed you in limbo. Edited later: There is a poster here named Fenderguy. A comment by him on another thread reminded me that he put his marriage in a sort of limbo for a year after Dday. Nowadays, he regrets it. He didn't physically move out like you did, but he essentially separated from his WW. Didn't interact with her more than minimally. No sex. He just lived as if he were single (except he didn't date anybody else). Nowadays, their sex life suffers. She built a wall of resentment and rejection during the course of that year.

No BS chooses to be cheated on, but being cheated on forces all of us to a place of having to choose between taking action to get out of infidelity, or not. You chose not. Therefore, you have remained in infidelity for this entire period.

It's not even clear what offering your WW "the gift of R" at this point looks like. It's only a gift if she wants it and will cherish it. From your description of her, it sounds as if the limbo has resulted in her entering a zombie state where she has no urgency to change things.

Edited later: I understand why you reacted as you did. The "insult meter" from the details of your WW's A was very high. That and the subsequent legal matters was enough to make any man stagger back and try to find a chair or wall for some support for a time as he tries to regain his footing.

However -- and I offer this in a loving way, to be supportive -- your WW's total lack of anything suggesting remorse since then has left you paralyzed, because you don't want to pull the trigger on a D. Thus, here you are, and I'm not quite sure what it is you think you'll be able to patch together with her. The comments you relayed from the conversation before she left for her trip suggest that, as in the case of Fenderguy, she has built a wall of resentment and victimhood in her mind. Most people in her shoes would do the same.

How are things working out between the two of you? Have you talked about the A with her since deciding to offer R to her? A big part of successful R is talking about the A, a lot, in great detail. A lack of this kind of talk would be a bellwether to the direction the R effort is taking.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 5:36 AM, October 17th (Thursday)]

Please forgive me for saying I bdisagree. Blaming the BS may be fashionable, but it should be done with your fingers crossed.

I sincerely regret not getting out of infidelity using the only acceptable methods: yours.

[This message edited by 36yearsgone at 9:38 AM, October 17th (Thursday)]

My original post at the start of this thread was not specifically aimed at my WS. It is more of a general observation of most Waywards.

I understand what you’re getting at. However, I’d be careful about generalizing about “most Waywards.” I don’t know that most Waywards do what you’re suggesting. Some do. Some don’t. I think we can all agree that an apology without follow up action is meaningless and in some way can be even harmful (like it’s an obligatory almost flippant thing).

I also agree with hikingout that actions without acknowledgement of the wrongdoing is also lacking. IMO, the WS needs to recognize and verbalize that they wronged their BS in such a serious and deep way. The “I’m sorry I did X or Y to you” illustrates an acceptance that they did this and damaged the other person. Then follow that up with real behaviorial and tangible changes. It’s the combination of the two that can really help.

For a BS, there are only two directions out of infidelity: D or R. You did neither. You failed to take action to get out of infidelity; hence you have caused yourself to remain in infidelity, and in limbo, for 2 years. That was your choice.

Two directions? D or R? I did neither?

I am struggling here to not take offense at your comments, but am at a loss as to how to avoid it. You are not living my life. Yet you have decided in your own mind that I only have two options and subsequently failed to get out of infidelity. Based on what you've said so far, my failure has been not to follow your very narrow avenue of getting out of infidelity.

I don't believe that D or R are the only options. How about separation? Is separation not an option? I always appreciate commentary on my situation from people on SI; but their commentary does not necessarily constitute a call to action on my part. Every BS chooses their own path despite what seems like the only two options etched in stone.

We talk about getting out of infidelity. My wife was the infidel. I was a victim of her infidelity and not a partaker. I made several choices over the past two years to deal with her infidelity and what it did to me. Many of the choices I would make again. Several choices I would forsake.

There are plenty of BS's here who remain in infidelity by rugsweeping, but you are the only one I can think of who remained in infidelity via simple inaction.

inaction my ass.

This is why I say that you created a circumstance that placed you in limbo.

Your interpretation.

There is a poster here named Fenderguy. A comment by him on another thread reminded me that he put his marriage in a sort of limbo for a year after Dday. Nowadays, he regrets it. He didn't physically move out like you did, but he essentially separated from his WW. Didn't interact with her more than minimally. No sex. He just lived as if he were single (except he didn't date anybody else). Nowadays, their sex life suffers. She built a wall of resentment and rejection during the course of that year.

I can't help what Fenderguy did or did not do. His choices were his and have no bearing on me or my situation. I am sorry that his wife cheated on him and then responded even more negatively over the path he chose to take. But, I say she was the catalyst for the entire nightmare.

Most of the victimized BS's on SI were thrust into a world foreign to them. They had little or no experience with infidelity. They eventually came here, got lots of great advice, some mediocre advice and maybe even came across you telling them they only had two possible options. So, once again, they were allowing someone else to make their choices for them. Victimized again.

Though I guess we can't really say they were victimized again. They made whatever choice they made.

No BS chooses to be cheated on, but being cheated on forces all of us to a place of having to choose between taking action to get out of infidelity, or not. You chose not. Therefore, you have remained in infidelity for this entire period.

I call Bullshit on this.

It's not even clear what offering your WW "the gift of R" at this point looks like. It's only a gift if she wants it and will cherish it. From your description of her, it sounds as if the limbo has resulted in her entering a zombie state where she has no urgency to change things.

So I created The Walking Dead? I hope I get paid royalties. I gave her "the gift" and like any gift. the recipient can choose what to do with it. They can accept or reject, they can put it on a shelf or throw it away. I don't give gifts with the expectation that the recipient must respond in a specific way.

If my WW has no urgency to change things, that's on her.

I understand why you reacted as you did. The "insult meter" from the details of your WW's A was very high. That and the subsequent legal matters was enough to make any man stagger back and try to find a chair or wall for some support for a time as he tries to regain his footing.

However -- and I offer this in a loving way, to be supportive -- your WW's total lack of anything suggesting remorse since then has left you paralyzed, because you don't want to pull the trigger on a D. Thus, here you are, and I'm not quite sure what it is you think you'll be able to patch together with her. The comments you relayed from the conversation before she left for her trip suggest that, as in the case of Fenderguy, she has built a wall of resentment and victimhood in her mind. Most people in her shoes would do the same.

If she's built a wall of resentment, she supplied the mortar and the bricks.

How are things working out between the two of you? Have you talked about the A with her since deciding to offer R to her? A big part of successful R is talking about the A, a lot, in great detail. A lack of this kind of talk would be a bellwether to the direction the R effort is taking.

I don't see her or talk to her much.

[This message edited by 36yearsgone at 10:29 AM, October 17th (Thursday)]

I understand what you’re getting at. However, I’d be careful about generalizing about “most Waywards.” I don’t know that most Waywards do what you’re suggesting. Some do. Some don’t. I think we can all agree that an apology without follow up action is meaningless and in some way can be even harmful (like it’s an obligatory almost flippant thing).

A valid criticism. I obviously allowed my prejudice to get in the way. Generalization does have its drawbacks.

I also agree with hikingout that actions without acknowledgement of the wrongdoing is also lacking. IMO, the WS needs to recognize and verbalize that they wronged their BS in such a serious and deep way. The “I’m sorry I did X or Y to you” illustrates an acceptance that they did this and damaged the other person. Then follow that up with real behaviorial and tangible changes. It’s the combination of the two that can really help.

Agreed. This was my overall intent for this thread.

Getting away from the t/j, the "positive" words your WS uses, i.e., "I'm sorry" must be weighed through the actions the WS uses to show just how sorry he or she is.

Are they sorry enough to stop the infidelity?

Are they sorry enough to focus on helping the BS recover?

Are they sorry enough to take responsibility for their actions?

A few weeks ago one of my employees made a mistake. He accidentally caused the deletion of a database containing nearly 30 years of records. He was sorry. He expressed remorse and asked me how we could recover the data. I explained to him what he did wrong, the result of his actions and what he needed to do to move him from "I'm sorry" to "I am taking steps to help the company recover.

I showed him how to restore the database from the most recent backup.

He learned what not to do and how to respond when one does what they are not supposed to do.

While this illustration is not entirely analogous to marriage and infidelity, it is proof that being sorry is not enough. True sorrow leads to helping the injured party recover and be made whole again.

True sorrow leads to helping the injured party recover and be made whole again.

Yes. This is also how I would define genuine remorse.

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 1:03 PM, October 17th (Thursday)]

**posting as a member**

Therefore, you have remained in infidelity for this entire period.

BFTG, I also disagree with your definition.

I think the largest population of active members on SI are in limbo, but most of them are out of infidelity.

Out of infidelity to me is -- the A is over, AP and WS are fully NC, and the BS and WS are communicating to try and figure out what's next, be it D or R.

And this decision can take a really long time, but the infidelity is over.

For me, the toughest part of showing up to SI everyday is the people who are stuck in limbo. In this case, for 36yearsgone, I don't see someone who is stuck, I see someone very actively attacking the issues that bother him about staying or leaving.

At any point, his WS could have filed as well, I don't think anyone is trapped in this situation. The original deal is broken, they're trying to figure out if they have something worth putting back together.

At any point, his WS could have filed as well, I don't think anyone is trapped in this situation. The original deal is broken, they're trying to figure out if they have something worth putting back together.

Oldwounds:

I couldn't have said it better myself. My WS is as free to make decisions as I am.

I think some SI posters stigmatize some BS's because the BS does not do things exactly the way the poster would. This is a major cause of frustration for me, as I realize I had/have been in what many, including myself, would describe as limbo.

But what is limbo anyway? Is it when a BS has not decided whether to D or R? If that's the case, upwards of 99.9% of the BS's on SI were in limbo from day one.

Is limbo the time period between D-day and the decision to D or R? Maybe.

If we can clearly define limbo, we may decide that limbo is not necessarily a bad thing. But making a rash or hasty decision can have devastating results.

If I had killed the POSOM as soon as I experienced D-day would that be a sign of not being in limbo? It certainly would've ended the affair, but it would also end my freedom as I would be out of limbo and into jail.

I am being criticized for taking my time in making a decision. But, people who find themselves in my predicament (as a BS), generally aren't prepared to make a quick decision and in fact might be more likely to make a wrong decision if they expedite the direction they choose.

I wish I could've come to the conclusion, I recently made, from day one. But it wasn't practical to do so as I was not thinking clearly. To be ridiculed for not following someone else's rules for my marriage and my WS's infidelity is absurd.

Every BS has to make his or her own decisions, based on their view of what should happen next. On too many posts I've read "he/she is cheating based on the limited evidence in your post and you need to get an attorney and divorce them..."

That may be sound advice in their near future, but at least give them an opportunity to calm down, collect their thoughts and carefully consider all options.

SI is a tremendous resource, probably the best infidelity resource on the net. But it is only a resource when it is properly used.

Butforthegrace, 36 doesn't need me to defend him or the choices he's made.

That said, from my perspective, what he's been dealing with is far greater than most due to the fact of losing his son.

I can't imagine having to deal with the loss of a child and than the betrayal of an A.

All I can say is 36 is doing the best that he can. He also leans on his faith in Christ and is trying to handle this the way the Lord would want him to.

Yes adultery is a reason to end a marriage in Christianity, but he's also wrestling with the angle of forgiveness and being given another opportunity (how many opportunities does Christ give us)?

I'm not defending either option I'm just saying 36 is trying to do what Christ is leading him to do and he's at the fork in the road and whichever path he ultimately decides to go down the Lord will be good with it but it's a lot to deal with.

Praying you find your peace with all of this 36!

thank you, Booyah

What if the WS says, "I'm so sorry. I know I can't undo what I've done. I know you can't forgive me right now or forget what I've done, but I swear to you I will spend the rest of my life making it up to you and hopefully helping you heal. Here are a few of the things I am going to start doing today..."

Apology with evidence of regret and remorse? Will this help?

So, there's nothing that says you can't sit back and watch the actions and determine how committed she is to changing her behavior by the things she DOES (or does NOT do).

I didn't see any sort of admission that she is solely responsible for her decisions. The wording indicates this is perhaps more of the same talk and no action.

If it helps or not depends on you and how you feel about it, really. It also depends on whether or not she is taking the appropriate steps to understand how deeply she has hurt you and how she can play an active role in helping to heal those hurts. For someone who avoids responsibility, this is a big sea change.

My concern is that this train has started and stopped so many times. I suspect it has made you somewhat immune to what she does, as in the past it's inevitably come back to cause you pain.

Whether or not this is more of the same is truly up to her.

A good question to ask yourself, and perhaps her, at a later time, is "what's going to be different this time?"

Is this just another "mostly sizzle and no steak" effort. What is TRULY going to make this different. Is she in IC? Is she reading books? Is she actively working on recognizing her very broken behaviors and substituting better ones in their place?

As you know, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

So, what IS going to be different this time?

Cat

What if the WS says, "I'm so sorry. I know I can't undo what I've done. I know you can't forgive me right now or forget what I've done, but I swear to you I will spend the rest of my life making it up to you and hopefully helping you heal. Here are a few of the things I am going to start doing today..."

Apology with evidence of regret and remorse? Will this help?

IMO, yes. Partly. Because your earlier statement...

True sorrow leads to helping the injured party recover and be made whole again

...is just not possible. I cannot be made whole again. I can recover to degree, but as is so often said here, you can’t unfuck the AP.

The key is that those things the WS says they’re going to do, they need to actually do. Otherwise it’s just words again.