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JGIOW,

Are you wanting to rebuild? Are you wanting to work on your marraige? Where are you at at this point?

If you're wanting D, then detach and don't try to build intamacy. If your wanting R then steps need to be made to build a bond. Not sexual, but at least a bond. If your undecided then it's up to you if you want to give it a try to see if things change. IMO I wouldn't try to start building intamacy until he decided he would find a job that would require little to no travel and is home more often. Then id start building intimacy by starting to go on dates with hand holding. If you want to D then I'd keep detaching.

Incarnate, I think that is part of the problem. Societal socialization that men aren't supposed to express intimacy anywhere else. I had a conversation with someone about this today on another forum.

I have to say that I think the perspective that men don't need nonsexual touch/emotional intimacy from places other than their romantic partners is one of the single most damaging things that harms BOTH men and women. Mostly men.

I can't even imagine how it must feel not to have an outlet for emotions. No one is made of stone; men have just been socialized that it's not okay to express those feelings. It's no wonder that the male rate of suicide is so high- imagine feeling hopeless or depressed and having no one to talk to about it because it's not "manly" to be sad or upset. It's a destructive and toxic trope. I don't believe for one single second that men feel less emotionally than women do; I believe they just suppress those emotions in a way that isn't healthy for anyone. It prevents them from connecting deeply in relationships, so men tend to have shallower support networks, and it harms emotional intimacy in romantic relationships because they don't connect as deeply to their romantic partners- or else go the other way and form an over the top codependent kind of connection since they don't get it anywhere else. I honestly believe that's why men are angry much of the time, or anger easily- because they don't have an outlet or experience in managing their feelings so all the negative ones just come out as rage. It is not a justification for bad choices, but I think it illustrates the harm caused to everyone by thinking this way.

I slept naked with my WH prior to the cheating.

Think of it this way, try going for weeks without anyone touching you. You're kids, our family and friends. Imagine never being able to tell anyone what your feeling and issues that you have. Imagine for weeks wondering if your the only one that feels like this or that. And then when you bring it up to someone, they feel uncomfortable and end the conversation quickly. That is how I feel all the time. It gets to where I crave touch from my wife, for input, love and affection. Try to healthily communicate this issue to your husband.

Red head temper, I understand what you're saying, I really do. It's exactly what I would feel when he's away for 5/7/9 months. Circumstances being what they were, I had no physical contact with a single person throughout that time, pre-kids. And it's because *he* chose to be away. I didn't have a say in that. But I put up with it, because that's what you do when you support someone. And then I found out that he wasn't finding it difficult like I was, because he was getting that from inappropriate interactions with other ppl while away. And that's the big issue. In a nutshell, he made live difficult, I put up with it because I had integrity and loved him and trusted he was doing the same, yet he just did what made him feel good. Knowing how hurtful it would be if I found out.

Touching has never been an issue before. We have always been the couple holding hands, leaning together, sit on the couch with legs up together etc. We still do this to some extent (when he is home), but it feels massively different to me now. I was comfortable doing it before, now I'm not. I still crave that human contact, but it no longer feels special between us in any way. In fact, I really think I would get more emotional value out of it with someone else. Someone who I knew hadn't betrayed me many times.

He should be making sure his future postings keep him near home. If that's not possible I don't know how I'll cope, because I really don't think I can trust him away long term. And there's no way to know what he's up to. That uncertainty is a constant mental torture, which is screwing me up big time right now. I know it's just the extreme version of what every BS goes through every work day, but there are no opportunities to come together at the end of the day and renew bonds/talk through details of the day.

Incarnate, I really do understand men's need for contact. The point is that I was being deprived to the same extent as him, and managed. He just looked for it with someone else. No loyalty.

as a good rule of thumb, most men in the western world aren't ever taught how to develop intimacy with others, we can only accept it from our partners.

And to be quite frank, this is what I expected from him, as I was doing the same.

And thx for the info (and the heads up!) sissoon and hikingout. I will go take a look (or not!)

[This message edited by Justgetitoverwith at 2:24 PM, November 6th (Wednesday)]

JGIOW,

It sounds like you are familiar with the issue that men have with intamacy. And that you can relate. Just be mindful of that when you communicate with your husband. I couldn't find your story on your bio. But from your member number you've been here longer than I have. Trust yourself. For me, long distance relationships are a deal breaker. I'm not the person that can do it. Your very strong to be able to go that long without daily interactions with someone you love. It sounds like this is a big issue with you also. Have you talked with your WH about it? How is communicating going between you two? It sounds like there are some automatic assumptions when he tries to communicate with you, but he isn't very focused on your needs and not really making changes. Is he remorseful? Has he ended all contact? Has he expressed a desire to work on you two?

"Ws has recently said he wants to increase intimacy (and he's not just talking about more sex, but when asked, he said sleep together naked, so it obviously is all sex based to him, if that's all he can come up with)."

I guess this is what incarnate is trying to address. Because your husband is trying to find ways to strengthen the relationship with intamacy. Rather than communicating to him that you aren't ready for intamacy cause he isn't a safe partner, it seems like it's deferred to 'its all about sex' or is a boob prize. Which me and incarnate have seen as a big intamacy issue. It's a good thing to be aware of because your husband is probably feeling and hearing it too. This is something that I'd address and realize it's an issue. It's an issue, that for me would probably stir up a lot of resentment due to assumptions that might not be true.

Incarnate, I think that is part of the problem. Societal socialization that men aren't supposed to express intimacy anywhere else. I had a conversation with someone about this today on another forum.

I have to say that I think the perspective that men don't need nonsexual touch/emotional intimacy from places other than their romantic partners is one of the single most damaging things that harms BOTH men and women. Mostly men.

I can't even imagine how it must feel not to have an outlet for emotions. No one is made of stone; men have just been socialized that it's not okay to express those feelings. It's no wonder that the male rate of suicide is so high- imagine feeling hopeless or depressed and having no one to talk to about it because it's not "manly" to be sad or upset. It's a destructive and toxic trope. I don't believe for one single second that men feel less emotionally than women do; I believe they just suppress those emotions in a way that isn't healthy for anyone. It prevents them from connecting deeply in relationships, so men tend to have shallower support networks, and it harms emotional intimacy in romantic relationships because they don't connect as deeply to their romantic partners- or else go the other way and form an over the top codependent kind of connection since they don't get it anywhere else. I honestly believe that's why men are angry much of the time, or anger easily- because they don't have an outlet or experience in managing their feelings so all the negative ones just come out as rage. It is not a justification for bad choices, but I think it illustrates the harm caused to everyone by thinking this way.

There is not a single word of this I disagree with. 100% spot on.

What else has your CH been doing to improve things between you?

I tried holding hands, etc. with my ex before the divorce. It creeped me out to the point that I'd feel ill. I felt like I was going to catch something. That was before the STD panel came back positive with her having HSV2 from her affair partner. Thank God for that creepy feeling.

On the face of it, he's doing everything possible right now to show that he is remorseful (well, whatever he can from half a world away and in a different time zone). Maybe he does finally get it. But this has come 20 years after the big A, and after years of gaslighting, aggressive denial, lies and resentment since I started questioning behaviour relating to a colleague on that deployment in 2015. A whole can of worms regarding other inappropriate behaviors before and since that A also were uncovered. My story is under my previous username, Redhead, I was Hickoryapple. It's a bit all over the place, but there have been numerous times he has broken my trust, as I was naive enough to believe him and thing the best of him for too long. Our relationship was strong because I trusted him. And now I don't. He took complete advantage of that time and distance apart.

Your very strong to be able to go that long without daily interactions with someone you love. It sounds like this is a big issue with you also. Have you talked with your WH about it?

Yes. Now that I know he happily and intentionally gets close to other women while away, while practically ignoring me and the kids, I am no longer happy for him to work away from home. The current deployment was agreed nearly two years ago, but he will need to only accept postings where he can work from home from now on, unless I have a radical change of heart. I doubt I will though. If he chooses to go away again, this is showing me that he is yet again wanting those opportunities, and that is unacceptable to me now. I don't care if he feels badly done to. He brought it on himself by his shitty disrespectful behaviour.

How is communicating going between you two?

As well and frequently as can be expected at the moment. Since he joined the navy 20 years ago, I have always been told he'll call me, as he would often be out of contact. This was the pattern for too long, and while it may have been true back in the pre cell phone and early personal email days, this became the norm. Very convenient for him, not to have to account for his whereabouts and companions at any particular time. This is now sorted as far as possible this time round. Regular email, location app etc, which at least makes him consider what he's doing, I think. Wish I'd thought of it sooner.

Is he remorseful?

Apparently so. Though rather feels like the remorse of getting caught, as there were a number of inappropriate behaviors he demonstrated since the A, which he knew were inappropriate because he lied about them, but did them anyway because he didn't think I'd find out. He's possibly been properly remorseful for a few months ago, as that was when I last caught a lie about spending time alone with a colleague he fantasised about. I may just be in the dark though. A few months is too soon to tell.

Has he ended all contact?

Years ago, yes. After telling me he was leaving me because we weren't working out (but there was noone else involved... ) and changing his mind. The bigger issue to me is that he completely rug swept the A and his reasons, and although he says he never did anything like it again, he has had a lot of inappropriate behaviour since, which he has lied about to my face.

Has he expressed a desire to work on you two?

Yes, but I dont trust that it is in my best interests, as I have given everything up to benefit everyone else and enable him to concentrate on and fully enjoy his exciting career, so he would find it very difficult if he was suddenly required to care for his children alone for any period of time. And he has shown that when he wants to, he is capable of lining up my replacement completely behind my back, to the point of being ready to walk out. He has also spent 20 years pleasing himself and getting emotional and physical thrills from other women, and happily lying to my face. I don't see why he would be happy to stop all that now. He says he recognised how bad his attitude was now, but if you lie about your behavior, you know it's bad or not acceptable, so that seems like a bit of a bullsh*t answer to me.

Early on in my 2015 investigations, he wanted to go to a marriage counselor. He said there wasn't anything to tell her that he hadn't told me. He was lying. I declined to go, but insisted on him seeing an IC. Who he lied to. He hid the A until 2018, when I got confirmation from the AP. So I don't entirely trust I'm when he says he wants to work on us. It feels like he wants to just move on. And I'm expected to get over the accumulated trauma.

Which is why this intimacy thing is bugging me. We do already express intimacy in many ways since post dday. It has always been a big thing for me. Yet the physical aspects now remind me of his interaction with other women, which is very hard at times. And he hasn't been emotionally open or vulnerable unless pressed, on a good day. And that's only about selected things, it's not something he does regularly.

So if this is the issue, what's the solution? I'm not going to happily hold hands with him walking down the streets he held hands with another woman on, and pretend everything's fine. Because he shouldn't have been doing that. And it's hurtful. And he would have known this but did it anyway. So he can own that and put up with it, just as I have to put up with all the shit I now deal with because of his cheating and lies. I don't see any other way around that, despite what you say. I will not make myself feel worse just to protect his feelings over an issue he caused.

JGIOW,

Your husband sounds like a real douchebag. And now it makes a lot more sense where your coming at. I wouldn't put him down or degrade him because he wants 'intamacy'. Define to him that you feel close connections with people who can be vulnerable, open and honest. Let him know that you want to feel that intamacy with him, but you feel like he's holding back. Let him know that intamacy and that connection is what you're looking for, but it comes with trust, being open, and taking about the really difficult things.

You've probably already told him that, but if he's rugsweeping, he's not R material. I have always had the belief that people can change, but the longer the behavior the harder it is to change. 20 years of messing around, that is a tough pill to swallow hoping for a change. I think he is trying to say he wants a change, but you don't know how genuine it is, or if he's really willing to walk the mile. People do it, but if i was you I'd be hitting the 180.

On the face of it, he's doing everything possible right now to show that he is remorseful

So, he's made a complete turn around very recently?

Not a complete turnaround recently. He resisted doing anything until I found out from AP in May 2018, as he was still hiding it, but did have times when he was nice, considerate. Mainly to distract me from digging further, probably. Lied to an IC, promised he was honest, etc.

When I found out he made a confession of sorts, and answered q, etc. But was still holding some unrelated bits back, which he eventually spilled after two or three days of me being relentless about TT and needing to know everything. He was resistant to forwarding email details of his plans because it felt controlling (I suggested it because he wasn't reliably writing stuff on the calendar), had a porn lapse, with excuses when I found out, didn't really read info on how to improve/sort things out, thought he just had to concentrate on not doing anything bad. Did start helping at home more and small acts of service.

Thought things were going OK, but had been lied to so intensely for so long, didn't trust it. Asked him about his involvement with his last colleague on deployment who he fantasised about, and he outright lied that he hadn't spent time out alone with her. This was after a weekend of me getting upset that I didn't think his ten minutes of mindfulness a day was enough to stop the lies. Him getting angry and saying it was. It wasn't. I told him to not come back from work. He stayed onboard overnight. Was very sorry for himself and apologetic the next evening. I said he could come back, and he had a very teary proper crying apology. Saying he realised what he could lose, that was the last time, etc.

Things have been better since, but that was just before he went away for 5 months. He had to be reminded a few times about what hed agreed to, and sometimes gets wound up when I am on his case, but on paper, he's doing things right, now.

Dunno tho. I can't catch anything while he's away. I don't know his current colleagues to ask anything. I think he's avoiding situations which may lead to a problem, and don't know how he would be if we weren't so intently focused on things atm. He knows I check his devices and location. If I didn't do this, I wonder if he'd start slipping. 20 years of lies puts a massive distrust in your head. Maybe it's more honest, because it was a gradual change? Idk.

sisoon, men get oxytocin from cuddles, too.

I really hate it when people make sex all gender specific, because in my experience once you drop all the societal conditioning, very little of this is actually true.

I've been thinking about this. Incarnate's male perspective makes me sad and feels like it applies to my WH too. Male friendship bonding does not compare to female bonding. It must be lonely. It certainly sounds that way.

Since I had very little pre-infidelity intimacy because our M sucked, I find that I am withdrawn, distant, disdainful, and untrusting because of pre, during, and post A behaviour

Incarnate, I had you beat. No physical intimacy for years - it does something to you. You lose confidence, become brittle, your outer shell hardens so emotions don't get through either outwards or inwards.

During his A, he comforted me (a few hugs) when my mom died, other than that nothing kind or positive.

So I have had years of only getting kid hugs, which is great, don't get me wrong. But when you know someone doesn't want to touch you, you dry up, get tougher in the hopes the hurt lessens - which it doesn't.

So post infidelity intimacy, I am having trouble thinking about what that could be like. It feels like a forgotten way of life.

WH wants to have a relationship…

- He has held my hand - it feels foreign, sometimes uncomfortable.

- We have been together once - it was nice, but it was not an intimate feel for me. More of a need. I haven’t been able to try again.

- He has held me, but because I am so wounded, it is nice, but I feel distant.

My trust is gone. My complete faith in his decency has faded. My zest for him, for us, is flat.

Maybe before intimacy returns, you need to FEEL desired, FEEL valued, wanted, important to them, special.

Not just doing marriage, but really living it.

[This message edited by Tallgirl at 9:25 PM, November 7th (Thursday)]

To Tallgirl;

I am sorry that you're experiencing that. I think you do have an idea of what most men's lives can be like due to that complete isolation, physical, mental, and emotional. I only wish that on my enemies.

I am sorry. It's no way to live. I hope you and your H can overcome this in a way that fulfills you.

He had to be reminded a few times about what hed agreed to, and sometimes gets wound up when I am on his case, but on paper, he's doing things right, now.

(my bold added)

This is what I'm talking about. Just a little while ago you were complaining that he was being difficult about doing things to make you feel safer while he's deployed.

Getting wound up about you not feeling safe after years of lying and cheating is a huge 🚩.

What has changed since then?

Forgot to add a recent experience I had for comparison.

My fch has been out of state all week for work. I sent him a few texts Wednesday evening that he didn't respond to. Nbd early on. He's busy with work and such. Later, I called several times. He didn't answer. I sent him a very angry text asking if he thought it was 9k to go dark like that.

He responded first thing in the am with an apology. No defensiveness. Nothing about how it's been 5 years and I should be over this. Nope. He screwed up and he knew it and he owned it.

[This message edited by cocoplus5nuts at 7:44 AM, November 8th (Friday)]

men get oxytocin from cuddles, too.

And I'm very, vary glad that is so. Apparently, however, the dose men get with orgasm is a giant one.

I really hate it when people make sex all gender specific, because in my experience once you drop all the societal conditioning, very little of this is actually true.

I agree.

There are significant gender differences that affect sex:

women have babies, and men impregnate women,

clitoris structure vs. penis structure, especially the nerves that go to each.

In our attempts to understand relationships, human beings have made up stories about love, sex, gender, etc. that are invalid much of the time. ETA: Especially, I would bet, our stories about gender differences.

[This message edited by sisoon at 10:26 AM, November 10th (Sunday)]

the dose [of oxytocin] men get with orgasm is a giant one.

Ummm, I'd say the dose HUMANS get with orgasm is a giant one....

but i've not searched for scientific proof - purely anecdotal

Coco, without giving massive amounts of detail on a timeline, it's difficult to convey without generalising to some extent. I'd say at the start of the deployment, for a couple of months (?) he'd get annoyed (and I have to admit that I can be very relentless at times), and gradually he has been less like that. He has been responding in the same way as your fch for a good while. Quick with apologies and some empathy/understanding.

Tall girl - what you described sounds exactly how I feel - hand holding feels false, sex is more about a desire for sex than a desire for him or for intimacy. I don't feel attraction for him as a person. And I don't go to him for comfort on any level if I'm upset. Such a shitty place to be after so long. I really hope your WH is working on making you feel loved and valued.