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[This message edited by sickofsurviving at 7:22 AM, November 9th (Saturday)]

I suppose it is all in the word “remorse”. If you still want to justify it in any way or hang onto the past then you will believe it was real.

I mean I’m sure my relationship with this guy I was in love with many years ago who would only see me only randomly and never commit to me felt real to me at the time. Now I’m laughing. This guy used to enjoy being the good guy and tell me all the shit I wanted to hear without even introducing me to his parents or see me in public places. (I found out later that he did have an official relationship actually, but nobody ever told me, he lived with his parents and she lived in a different area of the city, I was 19 and he was 22). I was madly in love with him. Now looking back it was all bullshit and I’m embarrassed I allowed him to treat me so badly.

Some people acknowledge these things, some prefer to remain hanged in the past because being “real” gives them another excuse for why they have cheated and how it was somehow justifiable.

Their AP TELLS them how great parents they are. And their spouse woke up this morning with messy hair and stinky breath again, how dare they? Their AP is always well kept and smell so nice. Their spouse held them accountable again for being home late and not being involved with the kids, damn it! Nagging all the time when their AP tells them what a great family man/woman they are. Their life is shit all of a sudden.

But... their life would be “shit” with their AP soon too. Of course it’s the honeymoon period in every relationship.

What Luna10 said! My WH's AP was constantly in his ear telling him what a great father he was. That he deserved to go out and have fun. That his wife (me, at home with a colicky newborn, suffering from PPA and dealing with no sleep and a suddenly absentee husband) was a miserable person that didn't want to have fun.

When I kicked him out and he moved in with her, the sunshine and rainbows dissipated in... maybe a week or two? Less than a month, for sure. She was already accusing him of cheating on her. She was pushing him for an answer as to when they were getting married. He was having trouble paying child and spousal support and she wanted him to book an expensive vacay for the two of them. Oh, and that's when the fights suddenly started. She would fight with him when he was going to leave and take the kids out for dinner. She would fight with him that he wasn't understanding how hard this was on her. She would fight with him that, while his whole life was imploding, he wasn't happy and loving her right.

Yup. Totally a real relationship. And when he ended it? She physically attacked him, came up with excuses to see him at work, then continued to threaten him for awhile.

Ibonnie two days before dday 2 when my WH was becoming a wreck because he knew he wanted our marriage and his AP turned on him threatening to call and tell me they kept in contact, he told her he feels suicidal and wanted to die.

What did the love of his life do? Laughed in his face and told him he’s sick in the head. I’m still angry at her for that (and all the other bullshit she did). My WH was really unstable and he was considering killing himself knowing he’s lost everything. And she was literally giving him a shove.

If that’s what happens in real relationships, if that’s what their loving AP who cared for them so much do, then we live in a different reality.

Even when my WH hurt me so much, saw me losing weight, crying on the floor curled in a ball, fainting, etc when he said he’s going for a walk and looked like he was saying final goodbyes, I still ran after him, walked with him in silence, brought him back home, cared for him. That’s real. Fantasy bullshit that literally turns into shit isn’t real. A person that “loves” you only at your best, when you’re groomed and all happy without your shitty behaviours out in the day light isn’t real.

[This message edited by Luna10 at 7:48 AM, November 9th (Saturday)]

IMO...The designation of the affair relationship being “real” or not is just another rationalization/tool used by the cheater.

They can claim it was real, if they are looking to leave their spouse.

They can claim it was not real (fog) if they are trying to stay with their spouse.

The sex was real.

The orgasms were real.

The “I love you” was real.

Until they are busted. Then....

I wasn’t REALLY in love with AP

Those were false feelings.

I thought I was in love, but it’s was not real actual love.

I was never in love with AP

I was never going to leave you for AP

The sex I had with AP was not the LOVING sex I have with you. We have a REAL emotional connection.

Yes I bought my lover a birthday/valentines/Christmas gift, but remember I thought I was in love.....but also remember it wasn’t real love. It was a real gift, but not really.

I never really got the whole "feelings are real" bit.

Are the feelings of a high school crush real? They're feelings. By definition, ALL feelings are real because they're internal to the person feeling them. There is no right or wrong as far as feelings are concerned.

Marriage is supposed to be based on vows, on a promise to forsake all others. Not that you are just hanging around until you decide to make the marriage a competition that your BS does not know they are in.

People who want to be APs are willing to do a lot, send thousands of texts. Hearts, I love yous I'm sure are all over the place. Are those real? Why aren't they? What long term partner can keep up that pace? I don't think I could ever love anybody that much. Short term, if I was motivated to get a lay? Sure. Especially if I didn't mean what I was saying.

The sex was real.

The orgasms were real.

The “I love you” was real.

No orgasms, the 'ILY' was extracted almost by force. Doesn't matter.

Th etime spent with the ap is real. The time and effort thinking about the ap is real. The time and effort texting/emailing the ap is real.

IMO, As have both real and unreal components. They take time, effort, and energy away from the BS - that's very real.

But they're built on lies. They're maintained by lies. Lies are about unreality, IMO.

I expect the affects - the biological responses - connected with the As are real. But we process affects into thoughts and feelings, and people in As seem to come up with thoughts and feelings that can be thought of as lies.

Perhaps the fact of the matter is that As are real, but sick, relationships.

When you are a BS married to a WS, your marriage is built on lies.

Not sure if an A is real, doubt it. But one thing is clear: if you’re in love with someone else, your other relationship is not real.

When you are a BS married to a WS, your marriage is built on lies.

Infidelity burns the marriage down to the foundation.

The rebuild, if done properly is built far differently.

The marriage I'm in now, I'm as candid an open as I have been my whole life, it eliminated the need for masks and gamesmanship. My wife has never been more open and honest her whole life (finally) now either. I realize there must be better ways for people to get more open and honest, but that was our only way through.

Getting back to the original vent, I think the A feelings are real enough until the fantasy bubble breaks. And clearly, for some WS that bubble never does get broken, and they ride the fantasy as far as possible.

My wifes affair seem like a real relationship to me. She did things with him that she only did with her husband. The relationship that she had with him almost killed me, caused me to have a nervous breakdown, and has totally messed me up for over two years now. Seems real to me. If it were not real, I can't imagine what a real one would have done to me.

The affair wasn't "real" is just another form of gaslighting. Unfortunately, it is taught on the WS side as truth. A WS can say I love you to the AP a thousand times. A WS can have sex with the AP twice as much as their spouse. WS can dream about the AP, pine for them months after dday and act like it meant nothing. "I said it, meant it at the time but it was just fantasy, so it really doesnt count". A WS can do almost anything with the AP and claim it wasn't real AFTER THE FACT when trying to R.

THAT "UNDERWEAR STAIN" WAS REAL. You took the knife and stabbed someone and now you are saying the knife was made of air?. No it wasn't. Just because you did not wash his laundry, does not mean he had no underwear.

Reality happens when you open your eyes. You did it. You engaged in a relationship with someone other than your spouse. Honestly you can take all of the super educated, 8 paragraph writing, IC/MC advice about what was or wasn't real and place it where the super soiled underwear should go. In the garbage.

"It wasn't real" is just another lie a WS says to minimize the affair. And that makes me choke on my sandwich every time I read it.

[This message edited by 66charger at 7:42 PM, November 9th (Saturday)]

Just to be clear. My post wasn't based on anything my husband said. It was something I read on another thread.

"It wasn't real" is just another lie a WS says to minimize the affair. And that makes me choke on my sandwich every time I read it.

This is how I feel. Same about saying it was a fantasy. The words said between them were real. The all day contact for four years was real. He really did fantasize about a life with her. He really did say I love you many times. Really did jerk off to her. Really did put her feelings before mine.

It was all real. Did he really love her? No, he couldn’t have, but it was a real relationship that has very real consequences to all involved. Does the fact that it wasn’t out in the open make it any less real for me? Nope.

This is talking about the first AP. After that I would say the relationships were much more superficial, even though the fallout is still very real.

Of course an affair is a real relationship. Usually it is a real shitty relationship, but one nonetheless.

I guess a lot of it comes down to the definition of 'relationship'. I have several relationships with friends and coworkers, but I know that is not what we are referencing. But if we are talking about our monogamous relationship with our partner, we didn't even have that....at least at the times during the affair(s).

I call it real. It happened, and can't be undone. Whether it was done in secrecy, or in public, it was their relationship.

I feel like my WWs affair was a more “real” relationship then our marriage was. She loved him. Completely and totally. Far more then she loved me at least while the affair was active. Their relationship crashed and burned but it was real and I am the back up plan. Now that their love has soured she says that I have value that she just couldn’t see. Fuck it hurts.

Not sure if an A is real, doubt it. But one thing is clear: if you’re in love with someone else, your other relationship is not real.

Now this I can clearly disagree with. It absolutely is possible to love more than one person at once, truly and deeply.

I am passionately in love with both my husband and my boyfriend. Both relationships are real. They are acknowledged socially and in our families. They don't exist in a little secretive bubble. And of course, there is informed consent on all sides.

Loving one person does not mean you can't love someone else. I think maybe the lying and betrayal means you don't love your partner, but not your feelings for someone else.

PSTI - I think the person was probably not talking about informed, consensual, polyamory in their response.

If a person is truly making a monogamous commitment to someone, they will feel attraction elsewhere, but will not feel love for others unless they create really terrible boundaries. I think love is not something that hits without some sort of effort. I was falling for my EAP but didn’t reach love, but am sure I could have reached some sort of messed up love if I’d continued on my path of destruction. I got close - and imagine other WS do too - because I took my marital grievances as license to build some “windows and walls” with the wrong people at each juncture. I see love as a choice and a verb and I do not believe, for example as some waywards use for justification , in “the heart wants what it wants”. That is what people use to justify all manner of abuse.

[This message edited by Justsomelady at 2:48 PM, November 10th (Sunday)]

I'm curious, PSTI (since you said you were open to honest questions): do you see your relationships with H and BF as equal, or is your marriage primary? Is there an understanding between you and your H that if either of you wants to close the marriage, the other will respect that? Or does it have to be negotiated, with D on the table if you don't want to give the outside partner up? What happens if you and/or BF don't like the next person H brings home? Is it a community vote?

I have no moral issue with polyamory if all partners are on board and informed, but I have to admit that the logistics and loyalties of it flummox me.

Fantasy lalaland is what it is. Sometime my wh that he was a great father. Yup. Awesome dad who was destroying our sons family.

My wh told ap that she deserved to be treated better than what her suspecting bh and her kids were treating her. You know because they suspected she was cheating and were angry with her and she didn’t deserve that.

He never really liked her that much though. He said love you too, to her but said he never thought she was intelligent and knew she lied about her problems. He never thought she was very attractive and said she was round. Just willing to spread her legs.

There was no relationship. They had sex in a car and talked on the phone. He shared nothing of his life with her. I was shocked at how little she actually knew about him after the amount of years they communicated. She babbled in about how horrible she was being treated at home. That was their relationship in a nutshell.

Laundry is one thing that bothered me after dday. I knew I had been picking up his underwear with her all over them. It made me sick just to think about it. Still does.

[This message edited by deephurt at 8:40 PM, November 10th (Sunday)]