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I read that thread too. That is the biggest fear that I had as a BS. It's so demoralizing to know that a WS has those feelings for someone else. Maybe the feelings are real, maybe they aren't I don't know because I never cheated, but lord it hurts to know that my WS may have had those thoughts too. It's no wonder we have threads that ask "how do you know if your WS loves you" and "how are we supposed to trust them." If a WS is hiding all these feelings then there's really no hope.

Side note: I don't do the laundry in my house, but if I ever had shit stains in my underwear you can be damn sure they would be in the trash before anyone else could see it. What kind of primate doesn't know how to use toilet paper?

To be clear..the shit stains are not a common occurrence. But happened occasionally over the last 20 years.

And, yes, I would throw them out before I'd let anyone see that,if they were my underwear.

Hi. My name is Hellfire. And,occasionally, my husband is gross.

Not every WS is hiding those feelings, you can ask yourself and them questions to see if they are. Hiding feelings like that are easy to spot if your WS is regretful and not remorseful. If they aren't owning who they became and cleaning that out, willing to look at it without getting defensive like it defines them or something. Take into account how far they are from DDay. If they are far out, ask yourself how they own what they did and who they became. If they can't own it that they became a shitty person at that time and did some horrible shit to the BS, then it is pretty clear where they might be. If they focus on being played and don't own it themselves but see themselves as victims, that too can be a red flag. If they defend the AP to you, that is a red flag.If they haven't figured out whys that have nothing to do with you or the marriage, that is a red flag.

What kind of primate doesn't know how to use toilet paper?

Shit happens?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[This message edited by Neanderthal at 3:41 PM, November 8th (Friday)]

I hear you and totally agree.

The AP gets all the fun, we wash their underwear, take care of them while they are sick, take care of their abusive mothers who live with us. We cater to them and their friends like some servant during ball games.

And yet, it's the AP whom they are comfortable with. The AP who made them feel good about themselves or sexy.

F that.

If WS is having an affair, your relationship with them is degraded. Because you do not know the truth. WS knows they are having A, AP knows, you do not know. How is that a relationship? How is that intimacy?

I realize BS are trying to reclaim their value. But I do not want doormats. If BS is doing WS laundry, WS has sex with BS twice a year and AP sex twice a week, that is a low quality or no quality relationship. I want BS to have good relationships.

And yet, it's the AP whom they are comfortable with

I tend to disagree with this. I know for absolute sure that my H wasn't that comfortable with his AP. He wanted what he wanted as he was a selfish butthole at the time, but having her forever and ever Amen wasn't part of the deal. He was "comfortable" getting his ego kibbles and sitting in his shit (as Zug puts it) with her.

I agree 100%. This is why when people claim to be poly but instead they are DADT or just looking for a quick fuck, I tell them they are using the wrong label.

A real relationship is not a dirty little secret, period. Maybe the feelings are real, because they're valid even if it's just NRE. But it's not a relationship any more than a ONS is.

Zugzwang, you have a pm.

I hope it is ok to post as I am a madhatter.

I do see my STBX's A with MOW as a REAL relationship. They spent weekends, holidays and work together. This went on for 3 years. They exchanged support and I love you's like a real relationship. My STBX even helped pay her rent like a real relationship. In fact that is what I call his LTA, a relationship that he had while married. They broke up like a relationship too thats when she spilled the beans giving me my False R.

I just have to point out that Neanderthal's post is incredibly apt, given his name.

What kind of primate doesn't know how to use toilet paper?

Shit happens?

¯\_(ツ_/¯

Different M's, different people, different experiences. No judgement here. WW and me do laundry for each other whenever the need arises. She'd never really seen me barf, until I had meningitis and was on death's door, delirious. Then yeah, she probably helped me with some things that had to get done (better to help with the barfing than cleaning barf of the carpet, right?) As we spend more time together, there are more opportunity for these "bonding moments" to happen.

Anyway. AP withdrawal is real. It's easy to say it's a dealbreaker for us BS, but sometimes things are more complicated... with WW's 1st A, she had some of the "I miss him" stuff going on. That's where the 180 is critical, because it helps break that fantasy.

A's aren't "real" in that they are just getting the best 10% of a relationship without the other 90%. Of course they miss that 10% sometimes. The 180 is what will make (many) WS suddenly realize they are going to really miss the 100% BS they are about to permanently lose.

In real relationships, people socialize in public, go visit family together, during the holidays.

Minor t/j - I'm amazed at some of the stories I've heard about how brazen some of these cheaters are when it comes to being seen together in public, not to mention a few things I've seen IRL. But your main point is taken. These relationships are "real" only in the most superficial sense. A real relationship doesn't exist only in the shadows.

Might be the same thread but have read other wayward threads as well saying how much they miss their affair partner.

I read some of that thread just now. From the perspective of someone who's more than 6 and half years out, you have to take much of what you read in the Wayward forum with a grain of salt. They are people in recovery like all of us, but from a different perspective. I personally can't relate to anyone who allows themselves to get into their kinds of predicaments. I can only imagine the shame and humiliation when you have to face your BS and children afterwards. I think there would be a strong temptation to attach meaning and significance to something that came at such a great cost. From what I've seen, once the fog lifts, reality sets in and the affair is seen as the tawdry thing it always was.

The Wayward thread can be triggery in the early days, and should probably be avoided by new BS's. Just my two cents.

[This message edited by Sal1995 at 6:27 PM, November 8th (Friday)]

In my case, the A has become more real than ours ever did. H left to live like a happy family with the OW and their baby. It's true they are not all out in the open, hiding to some friends and families, but they are experiencing the ups and downs of relationship together. It's a you and me against the world thing.

How can we stay with people that did this

People change. They realize the error of their ways. They show remorse. Make amends. Set boundaries. Understand the pain and trauma they caused.

They are not the same cheating jerk they once were.

And they recognize the gift of another chance.

That is how you stay.

The affair relationship is real. In the cheater’s mind it is real and special and unique.

Just because Elements of the affair are not based on reality doesn’t make it any less “real” in the cheater’s mind.

Semantics... whatever...

But all I do know is that I would NEVER have tolerated the ‘real relationship’ my WH had with his AP. Even after we separated and he left to ‘be with her’, she was still a dirty little secret. She was never introduced to our friends, family or thankfully our children. He never engaged with her children. She never went on dates with him. He would go round hers at eight at night and left at six in the morning. Their first Xmas season together he spent entirely with me and our family. She still hung on until he had the guts to end it. I honestly think he was hoping she’d just give up and it would fizzle out. She didn’t. I read somewhere that AP have very poor reality testing, never a truer word.

Real relationship or not whatever, it was definitely a shit poor excuse of one.

The affair relationship is real. In the cheater’s mind it is real and special and unique.

Just because Elements of the affair are not based on reality doesn’t make it any less “real” in the cheater’s mind.

Agree totally. Current wife had a online EA which went to a brief PA i believe. When caught she talked about being with him etc but it was a clearly a fantasy on both their parts. She used "fantasy", "dream" descriptions herself. I can understand (but not condone) that because he wasn't part of the massive and stressful drama that made up our lives back then he was appealing. I don't think it really even mattered who he was.

XWW had an exit affair. She monkey branched and "traded up" to a guy who we both worked for. I suspect that as she met him about a year before I did, she started to move away from me at that point.

Shortly after we separated and before I knew about him as her AP, one of her enabling friends said "why did you think it was ever going to last?" She ended up marrying her AP and they were together for around 25 years.

The ease with which she left me made it clear which relationship she saw as special and was invested in. I just didn't know it was the one I was in. Looking at the two betrayals with hindsight the XWW's still hurts more. I couldn't tell you why even though it was nearly 30 years ago.

[This message edited by hansvoleman at 4:35 AM, November 9th (Saturday)]

Shit stains or not affairs are fantasies for the simple reason that they make the cheater’s reality look like shit.

Let me explain: when you’re married you will deal with real life, paying bills, washing dishes, cleaning, supporting your kids with homework. Seeing your spouse with messy hair when they wake up in the morning, stinky breath, you go to use the toilet after your spouse and you still smell their shit. You clean said toilets. You cook. You shout at the kids who once again left a cup of milk in their bedroom well hidden and it went stale and it stank the whole fucking place. You play good cop/bad cop with your kids. You deal with extended family drama. And the list can go on and on.

And that’s real life. In that real life you’re a team most of the times but sometimes you also snap at each other because you’re tired. You forget to tell your spouse you appreciate them and they forget to tell you the same. Or maybe you do but it falls on death ears because hey, you’re meant to say those things. You forget to buy flowers and woo your spouse and set romantic dinners and dates because... real life. But you’re content and life happens, and look at all these things you’ve achieved.

Along comes this person who who sees you, just you, without the list above. No shit smells in the toilet. No arguments about kids and who’s turn is to play bad cop. No messy hair and bad breath. No bills. They tell you how amazing you and your achievements are. And suddenly, for the cheater, their reality is shit. Look at their spouse, they shouted at the kids again to do their homework (or not shouted, they are too permissive and the kids have no direction poor lambs). Their AP TELLS them how great parents they are. And their spouse woke up this morning with messy hair and stinky breath again, how dare they? Their AP is always well kept and smell so nice. Their spouse held them accountable again for being home late and not being involved with the kids, damn it! Nagging all the time when their AP tells them what a great family man/woman they are. Their life is shit all of a sudden.

But... their life would be “shit” with their AP soon too. Of course it’s the honeymoon period in every relationship. But once that’s over (and in relationships emerging from affairs it is over sooner than in normal relationships because there is more drama, merged families, step siblings fighting, your kids hit mine, less money due to child support etc) you find yourself with the same list as above. Shit stains, dishes, cleaning, bills etc.

I could spend hours telling another person how great they are when I’m not committed to them. It doesn’t cost me anything. I can tell any man out there how amazing he is as long as he doesn’t expect me to cook him dinner, do his laundry, care for him when he’s sick, how is that real?

When they pine for their AP they pine for fantasy. They would always pine for that fantasy until they wake up and learn gratitude. Learn to look at what they have rather than always chasing the impossible, a relationship that always feels like the first date without any demand to real commitment. Life just isn’t a series of holidays and I love you’s. Life and love is doing your spouse laundry, holding them when they’re sick, supporting each other through high and lows and do loving acts for them even when you feel you’d rather crack their head open. Appreciation and gratitude is key.

I can understand a WS who just got caught, or are fresh out from dday, thinking it was real. In their foggy,fucked up, delusional thinking. I can understand them thinking it was real, because they need to believe that.

I'm not talking about the ones who leave for their AP.

Once they leave, and are no longer sneaking around, as sick as it is, they're attempting a real relationship. Many times, these relationships don't last because suddenly reality slaps them in the face.

What I don't understand is a remorseful wayward spouse, who has done the work, but they call an affair a real relationship.

If that is the cheater's thinking, they are absolutely not remorseful.

They are still very off in their thinking.

The ones that are "R" but still have thoughts or fond memories if their affair, in my opinion, arent remorseful either. I feel the most sorry for these betrayed spouses. What a huge slap in the face. How can anyone miss, pine for, or have fond memories of the person who helped the cheater destroy 2 families.