SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Got less than halfway done on my edit.
Anyway, so the SIL/BIL thing, my WW just called and had a long conversation telling her sister she needs to talk with her husband and be honest. She is also going to call some other friends (I can figure out who later by phone number). I'm going to ask him how he's holding up, and that doesn't it suck we both got cheated on soon. I don't really care if SIL tells him between now and then.
She says that she understands that there is no world where she gets to be have any relationship with the OM and me and that she chooses me. She has built up this big emotional weight around this job and we are still working on it. She admitted once again from a logical standpoint that she ought to find a new job.
I said look, there are no logical reasons right?
She says right.
Ok so either this really has to do with fucked up FOO around your mother and your identity or you are still cheating on me. Are you still cheating on me?
No.
Ok, well you need to get over your issues then. Because your reasons for not giving me what I want to move forward are wearing thin.
Anyway. You guys might see it as nothing. I feel like there was significant forward progress at least on her understanding the pain she caused me, even if I haven't gotten what I wanted yet.

[This message restored by Webmaster at 3:52 PM, Wednesday, May 19th]

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:47 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

It’s a step forward. Your counselor is right. You do need to show her more emotion and how much pain this has caused you. Your WW is a work in progress. As much as I would love to see it, a WW does not always jump into remorse right away. There is often defensiveness and guarding in the beginning. If she stops making progress you know your choices. Keep on keepin on.

I think it's really about my core issue if being emotionally cool/distant. I'm not taking any blame here, but this is a weakness if mine. When she gets emotional I check out, and what I need to do is, I guess, just yell at her and say I'm hurt and angry. Maybe this sounds like straightforward simple stuff, by I've always tried to resolve things rationally. I need more emotional exercise. Don't tell her I'm mad, be mad. I don't think I've yelled "that's bullshit" to her before today.

[This message restored by Webmaster at 3:51 PM, Wednesday, May 19th]

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:48 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

"What changed? I got visibly upset." "I need more emotional exercise. Don't tell her I'm mad, be mad."

Yes! and yes again! Words mean squat. Actions are what's needed here. She needs to see your pain and experience your raw emotions.

A person can be logical without coming off as aloof and uncaring. There are times in life however when logic needs to be set aside and pure raw anger and emotion need to intervene. You're WW hasn't quit her job because you have yet to take charge of the train-wreck and make her understand that you're pissed off. It's obvious that words aren't cutting it so it should be logical that emotion and anger are needed to flip the mental trigger in her head.

Show her that you're a real person with emotions just like hers so that she can relate to your pain. Let her see the real you under all of the words. And call bullsh*t if she's using her FOO and mother issues as crutches to avoid doing the hard work of fixing herself and the train-wreck she created.

I'm excited for you that you're seeing progress. Keep doing what works; showing how you feel. I wish the best for you.

I need more emotional exercise. Don't tell her I'm mad, be mad. I don't think I've yelled "that's bullshit" to her before today.

Right. There's no such thing as remorse that doesn't recognize the pain that been caused. Let her see your pain.

Personally, I think you are managing your situation well. It's only been about 2 months; you can't be expected to have everything resolved in your own head, let alone with her. You clearly want to remain married: but to the woman you thought she was, someone who shared your values. She's shown you someone else and you are working on reconciling, not the marriage at this point, but the different versions of her and your conflicting values. If/once that happens, then you can progress with healing your marriage.

Your wife knows that quitting her job is a prerequisite to a successful reconciliation. She's been deluding herself about being able to have her cake and eat it too, trying to justify her intransigence as a personal need. Only you can determine how long you can tolerate that.

And yeah, calling your BIL on your own schedule is the way to go.

It’s progress. Instead of you trying to piece together phone numbers, your WW needs to be candid about how many and who she’s been covering for.

Second, set a deadline for talking to your BIL and stick with it. Like I would say this Friday, three days from now. Your SIL has had plenty of time to come clean. if she hasn’t told him by this Friday, then you should. You and your WW have given her an opportunity to voluntarily disclose her infidelity. If she won’t take that opportunity, that’s on her and not you.

On the FOO and the job, I don’t buy it. Yes, I buy her grief and the trauma of a parent committing suicide. I’m not minimizing that. But I don’t buy the tie in to her job. It’s just too damn convenient. If they are working in the same company, no matter if In different locations, and they are going to be staying in the same hotel in May, then NC is not in place (in fact we know it isn’t because your wife has already admitted they continue to talk, although she’s giving you a story it’s limited and all professional) and you have no idea what is going on. Her behavior is classic cake eating behavior and you are being played on this.

[This message edited by Thumos at 9:15 AM, February 12th (Wednesday)]

Also does your SIL know that your WW cheated on you? sorry if you already stated this, it just didn’t seem entirely clear.

And it just occurred to me knowing my own relationship with my own SIL - are you going to talk to your SIL about this and let her know it’s a double whammy and in many ways feels like a double betrayal to you?

I think you need to stop allowing everyone to be filtered thru the most unreliable communicator (your WW) and start sticking up for yourself and not let the obvious go unsaid. You can be calm and direct but your SIL should know how this behavior ripples outward and the consequences of it.

It is most certainly “your place” to let your SIL know she’s hurt you as well and that her keeping this from your BIL has put you in a moral quandary against your will.

[This message edited by Thumos at 9:12 AM, February 12th (Wednesday)]

the reason she wanted to stay was to be redeemed.

Dude, now come on. The reason she wants to stay in the job is bc it affords her a cake eating strategy and proximity to the OM.

You are unemotional after being cheated on?

Hmmm …

Either you are:

Not telling everything here

Extremely codependent and so focused on her possibly trying to kill herself, so you are on eggshells

On extreme anti-depressants - There was someone else like that on the forums here

Autistic or have some other emotionally restrictive syndrome

Have had your own affair and hence are less emotionally invested in her straying

Is it any of the above possibly or something else we aren't hearing?

I ask because you said you haven't called anything she says as Bullshit. You also state we are being too harsh with some advice. It just seems like you are having something hold back your emotions and pain processing. If you don't do anything in the next few months, sooner or later you will feel slighted and not heard.

Not making accusations. Just trying to understand how you can still be un-invested emotionally.

Hey TiF. I am way late to the party on this one, but started reading from the beginning and just read some things that spoke to me that I wanted to share. Some of them may have already been put to rest, so please ignore if that's the case.

I know she still has feelings for OM, she has admitted as much. It will take time to get over it.

Oh boy - I did this with my xwh too. 13 days after dday is when I finally told him that he could be married to me or "friends" with his 18 yo slut, but not both. And either she was unfriended when he got home that night or not to bother coming home at all. He came home. All these months later I wish he hadn't. Just like you, I "gave him time to get over it". And I found out the hard way that I shoulda shut that shit down.

She came to me about the conference "dates" immediately out of guilt rather than shame. I stupidly said, "Well just don't let it get romantic, it's fine to have friends."

Another one almost word for word out of my playbook. My xdouche came home, told me he had fallen in love with the slut, proceeded to tell me he was now polyamorous and wanted to pursue a relationship with her.., Yeah and he said all that cus he felt "guilty". And dumb-hopiumsmokin-ass told him he could be friends with her!! How fucked up is that?? Your gut is telling you NC for a reason TiF. Your gut is wise and it isn't wrong. If she stays in contact - ANY CONTACT, she is still in the affair. Period. Just as an aside, after my xwh [supposedly] went NC, I told him he needed to tell me if the skanklet contacted him again EVER. Yeah, guess what didn't happen? Point being, ANY lie, no matter how small, ANY omission, no matter how insignificant, is one more nail in the M coffin. The coffin your wife built and lowered into the grave she has dug.

She just needs to do that on terms where she doesn't feel I'm destroying her for it. That's what I want.

After my dday man was I scared. So scared. Scared to make a move in any direction. That I would say something wrong and make him mad and drive him away. If there was one thing I wish I could just matrix-style beam into new BS's heads it would be this: YOU BS have not one motherfucking thing to fear, your WS should be shitting themselves. YOUR wants, YOUR needs, YOUR healing trump hers in every possible way right now. I don't give a flip about her FOO, or her feels, or whatever other lame-ass bullshit she's gonna dribble for why she did what she did. Nothing she can say other than abject and repeated sincere apologies is important. I floundered after dday, because of my fear. I didn't find my voice for many months. If I have one major regret about this whole shitshow, it is that I didn't go nuclear the day after it happened and blow that shit up.

It's unfortunate, because my wife sees progress, and I have to remind her I still don't trust her and have not forgiven her. I told her she needs to recognize that her actions are causing continuing damage to our M. I told her she doesn't need to engage in self-destructive behavior. She needs to re-prioritize. She agreed. We'll see if she takes any actions at all.

You know the whole words vs actions concept? That stream goes both ways. Again - SO something I did too. My face said 'fuck you' and my actions said 'nono I'm fine with you fucking me over'. She doesn't and will not recognize the damage she is doing. She has no reason to recognize anything right now. Going back to earlier points and it's an important question - what do YOU want? You get the say. And you damn well get to put them forth as fucking DEMANDS. "Wife, you will put in your notice and quit this job on x date or I will have D papers ready on that day." I know for me, back to that fear thing - I didn't feel like I had the 'right' to demand things. Fuck . that . noise. Yes I did, and you do too.

She does not want to leave her job because she feels pride, ownership, and identity in it. She takes full responsibility for her terrible choices that hurt me.

Man TiF - you are like my SI-twin... Another one I did too. I would flip this shit on its head. Does she feel pride/ownership/identity in her marriage? And which does she want more? And while I respect the FOO to a point, I also see it used as a manipulation in a lot of circumstances. IMHO, that seems to be what your ww is doing. You: "Wife, I need you to quit your job and go NC." And her: "But mom identity FOO". All I see there is excuse, excuse, excuse, me, me, me. What I don't see is acknowledgement of the continuing constant pain she is inflicting on you with this crap.

I do not want to force her to do anything.

I want her to do it.

She can choose to not do it.

You can't force her to do anything. What you can do is decide if you are willing to put up with her half-assed bullshit. Cus that's what see allll over this thread. I see a decent man that seems to be a good (not perfect) husband, and a selfish, self-centered toddler of a wife that will take as many miles as she can get. IME, people don't generally want to change until the discomfort of staying where they are at becomes greater than the discomfort of a change. And boy do I get that "wanting them to want to do". But the truth is... some people never will. And the question is... how much of yourself and your time and energy do you want to give to someone like that? It sucks and there's no 'right' answer. Just food for thought.

Right now we are in recovery (though it's going slower than I would prefer), and I hope we can work toward reconciliation.

Respectfully TiF, you aren't 'in recovery'. She is still in any sort of contact with posom, she is still in cheat-mode IMO. I totally get wanting R. I did too... at the beginning. But I will tell you - you are in early days. And truthfully, one BS to another - you have no idea where your head will be a month from now. Right now? Focus on YOU. She's gonna do what she's gonna do, no matter what. And sad truth is for right now, she really doesn't see the harm and hurt she's is causing. She can't take care of you at the moment.

As far as all the BIL stuff goes. Wow that's a tough one. I'm with Thumos tho. Tell him. Here's why, just from my experience. I am really close with my family. I didn't tell them for 6 months after dday, and I really could have used their support during that time. I didn't tell them because I didn't want to make things harder for him since he already had so many things to work through. Eventually I started feeling weirded out about that - they say infidelity is abuse right? Keeping that secret, keeping his confidence... made me feel complicit in his abuse of me. In his continued abuse of me after dday. When I finally did find my voice after those 6 months, during MC (and our MC was awful), that's when I started taking back the reins. When I stopped feeling helpless about it. All of that to say, yes marriages do have confidences, but right now? You don't owe your wife shit IMHO. They say that infidelity kills the M, so the old contracts tied to the old M about confidences and such are now invalidated. If YOU want to tell your BIL, I say go for it. If wifey has an issue with it, that's just too damn bad. Just my 0.02, but from what I am reading, I feel like not telling him is really not sitting well with you and it wouldn't with me either.

Uffda TiF. You're gonna make it through this shit one way or another, you really will.

I think this is a good sign. It's too soon to celebrate especially because your WW has a history of saying what you want to hear and then backtracking when it comes time to put it into motion. I think your strategy of talking to BIL no matter what SIL does is a good one.

Why on earth would she make the decision to leave. She’s doing whatever the hell she wants to , is pissing away her husbands money on some idiot therapist telling them it’s all on hubby to get over it and not hassle her , and she can see and talk to her boyfriend at work every day . And just for icing on the cake she gets to travel and stay in same hotel with OM.

It happens all the time. WSes are happy cake eating until they're not and it's especially true if the BS is trying to R and feels the full effects of the betrayal. Unremorseful WSes do not want to come home to a sad, desperate BS and will feel attacked when it's pointed out how little they're moving forward towards R. Eventually, they get fed up with it too. We've had quite a few BSes here who rugswept and rocked the boat as little as possible for years who still were served D papers from their WS in the end. Rugsweeping is not a guarantee to stay married.

You are unemotional after being cheated on?

Not very visibly emotional. Of course I'm emotional. I just don't show it very much. Even when I first confronted her, I did it calmly. Whenever I've mentioned an argument in this thread until yesterday it's safe to assume I didn't yell or raise my voice. I told her what I was feeling and what I wanted to feel better.

Hmmm …
Either you are:
Not telling everything here
Extremely codependent and so focused on her possibly trying to kill herself, so you are on eggshells
On extreme anti-depressants - There was someone else like that on the forums here
Autistic or have some other emotionally restrictive syndrome

I'm not worried about her possible suicide, I think there was a point where that was a potential influence. I do still want her to have good mental health, and I have helped her through panic attacks in the past. She has a good IC and a good support system. I could leave her and be comfortable that she would get over it without suicide.
I am not on any medication.
I have been accused of having Asperger's/being on the spectrum by many people, but my doctor doesn't think so. I don't know what the other emotionally restrictive syndromes might be, but yes, this is absolutely a possibility. Looking it up, I would say I have restricted affect.
Once again, I'm not accepting any blame here. This is a known flaw of mine that I have admitted from the very beginning.

Have had your own affair and hence are less emotionally invested in her straying
Is it any of the above possibly or something else we aren't hearing?

No.

I ask because you said you haven't called anything she says as Bullshit. You also state we are being too harsh with some advice. It just seems like you are having something hold back your emotions and pain processing. If you don't do anything in the next few months, sooner or later you will feel slighted and not heard.

I told her what she the decision she is making about her job doesn't make sense and wasn't logical or reasonable and does continuing damage to our marriage. I didn't outright say, "That's Bullshit!" until yesterday.
I agree, I don't think I was heard. Because I felt me saying "I feel betrayed, and you hurt me." Was enough to convey that I felt betrayed and that she hurt me. This clearly isn't the case.

Not making accusations. Just trying to understand how you can still be un-invested emotionally.

I have my own issues to work through, I suppose.
@EllieKMAS
Thanks for the post and the support. I am focused on me. I think maybe either I haven't made it totally clear here or whatever, but I already pretty much do what I want and don't do what I don't want in my relationship. This seems like very common advice that I have gotten over and over. I have never neglected myself or what I want.
That's why I have a hard time understanding what else is in the quiver other than divorce. Like what, stop cooking dinner? I want to cook dinner. It also provides benefits to others sure, but I enjoy it.
So that brings up the "demands". I'm not going to make demands. I know that this is the advice here. Give a list, and divorce her if she won't. I tried that and failed to divorce her because I didn't want to yet.
What I will do is make it clear I have my wants, communicated them with the appropriate level of emotion and words (I was missing the emotion I think), and if she doesn't CHOOSE to change. Then I will eventually leave, when I want to leave. I won't threaten leaving. I'll just do it. Is this just a list of demands with a threat, but with more steps and at a slower pace? Maybe. But it feels better to me.

[This message restored by Webmaster at 3:51 PM, Wednesday, May 19th]

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:48 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

Well, congratulations on finally getting a little fucking mad!!!!!

I feel like there was significant forward progress at least on her understanding the pain she caused me, even if I haven't gotten what I wanted yet.

There is no progress. How nice, she chooses you. Thats ass backwards. You should be the one choosing her because she has gotten it right.

There is still NOT ONE THING she has done. So she told you she is still not cheating on you. How touching of her.

She still thinks cheating is no big deal, she still refuses to give up the job, and you are still walking on eggshells.

You keep stating if you demand anything its either that or divorce. Until she believes that that is exactly what will happen you are going to get nowhere.

Now before you know it she will be on her little trip with him right there. Are you going to take ANY action of just sit home and hope????

And yes, any action you take WILL involve demands.

I told her what she the decision she is making about her job doesn't make sense and wasn't logical or reasonable and does continuing damage to our marriage. I didn't outright say, "That's Bullshit!" until yesterday.

That's good to hear. I think you have been far too "reasonable" up to this point, and she's mistaking that for tolerating her bad choices and she's been trying to walk all over you. It's healthy for her to understand you don't tolerate this and are on the verge of leaving her if she doesn't get her shit together.

As BR alludes to, TIF why haven't you made it clear to her that going on a trip and staying in the same hotel with the OM is a hard Rubicon border for you that she dare not cross or you will D her? That would have been truly intolerable for me after D-Day. I made mistakes after D-Day but getting NC outright and shutting down the affair was not one of them. You are letting this fester for no good reason. Why aren't you setting a hard deadline for her to get a new job. "you will get a new job by March 15, and you will NOT be going on any trip or staying in any hotel with OM. If that's a dealbreaker for you, then let's be done right now. If you violate this boundary, then we are also done. Best get to work finding a new job lickety-split."

I know there are likely extenuating circumstances and financial considerations, but surely she can find it in herself to locate new job prospects and do interviews in the next two weeks. If she was fired from her job, she'd be busting her ass for a new job.

She's about to be fired from the marriage, so same thing, should be the same sense of urgency. Only it's not. Hmmm.

[This message edited by Thumos at 1:56 PM, February 12th (Wednesday)]

I have never neglected myself or what I want.

OK. So how does your current situation fit into what you want from a marriage? Not asking angrily, just trying to reframe a bit for you.

What I will do is make it clear I have my wants, communicated them with the appropriate level of emotion and words

This seems a bit ridiculous to me too TBH. Soooo the reason she is still trying to cake eat is because YOUR emotions aren't right? (confused Jackie Chan face) Not following that logic. You get to communicate your stuff however is right for you, not however is right for her.

That's why I have a hard time understanding what else is in the quiver other than divorce.

I don't recall anyone having said it in the previous 20 some-odd pages, but common SI wisdom is that in order to save the marriage, you need to be willing to lose it (think of negotiating with a car salesman - in order to get the best price, that guy needs to believe with no doubts that you will get up and take your money out the door). Right now, it doesn't seem like your ww has to make any changes because you will stay and be her BH no matter what she does. I think all the backtracking on her part is her testing and re-testing your boundaries. Mind you, I don't know if she is consciously doing so, but that is the gist of what she's doing. So yes - D is always an option. So is separation. This is just my 0.02, so take it as such please, but how I am seeing this is you are still trying to nice her back. I get it, I DO. I did it too, for 9 agonizing months. Nicing never works. I can't think of a single example in 15+ months of being on SI where nicing ended well for the BS.

Is this just a list of demands with a threat, but with more steps and at a slower pace? Maybe. But it feels better to me.

TiF, I am not saying to threaten. This is the really hard part for new BS's to grasp I think. Cus it sounds ultimatum-ey. But an ultimatum is about control, it comes from a place of angst - do this or else! What I am asking of you is to put you first. It's difficult to explain the difference, but instead of "Do this or else" it is "You can choose to do this or not. Either way, I choose not to deal with infidelity any longer." Does that make sense? The first is about trying to control THEM. The second is retaking control of YOU. You've said the words sure, but you aren't internalizing them yet I don't think.

And I get the slower pace thing sort of. I felt that way too. Ultimately it just prolonged that damn bandaid by almost a year.

That's why I have a hard time understanding what else is in the quiver other than divorce. Like what, stop cooking dinner? I want to cook dinner. It also provides benefits to others sure, but I enjoy it.

*A hard 180 for starters. Don't act butthurt. Just withdraw. Do it now.

*Stop sleeping in the same bed.

*Stop providing physical affection. You can always receive affection, if you want, but you can also simply not initiate affection. She'll get the message.

*Stop having sex with her.

*Cook for you and your kids only. Or maybe stop cooking for a few weeks, say you're tired and just order takeout.

*Start arranging for social outings in the evening in the middle of the week without her.

*Get a new wardrobe.

*Build as much muscle mass as you can - hit a 24 hour gym with a good weight room and do it at night after the kids are asleep. It's a great stress reliever and gets you out of the house away from her.

*Go on a trip without her (or just take a Saturday and go off in the woods or something by yourself).

*Stop sitting on a couch and watching movies or TV with her.

*Stop living in her world. Start living in yours.

In my view, the cooking thing you brought up is actually a really good example. Yes, you enjoy it. So then do it for you. Cut her out of it. Cook things you enjoy that you know she won't. Be selfish about it. Dirty up the kitchen and leave it that way. Make her feel the pangs of how life without you will be, how your absence and lack of affection will be once you're gone.

[This message edited by Thumos at 2:13 PM, February 12th (Wednesday)]

TIF have you read "No Mr. Nice Guy"? I'm wondering if you might have a tad bit of nice guy syndrome going on here. You might check it out. It's a quick read. On the more 'secular' spiritual side you might also check out The Way of The Superior Man, and you may see how some patterns you've developed are communicating weakness to your wife.

I think all the backtracking on her part is her testing and re-testing your boundaries. Mind you, I don't know if she is consciously doing so, but that is the gist of what she's doing.

Yep, I totally agree. The unfortunate reality is that she's been testing you all along - during dating, during the marriage, and now she's doing it on hard mode with infidelity. Happens all the time, regardless of infidelity. You keep showing her there is zero consequence for her behavior, and thus she keeps ramping it up.

Anyway. You guys might see it as nothing. I feel like there was significant forward progress at least on her understanding the pain she caused me, even if I haven't gotten what I wanted yet.

You're correct, that's what I see, your WW has NOT done anything significant yet, STILL sees OM everyday at work, she has STILL NOT TOLD your BIL about SIL cheating on him and you're still allowing all of it. Sorry but I DO NOT see any significant progress at all.

[This message edited by Buster123 at 5:38 PM, February 12th (Wednesday)]

While she says she understands...until she actually does something about it, it matters little.

What is tragic in this whole thing is your insistence on relying on a counselor to "convince" your WW, when all it would take would be some action on your part.

I know it seems like you are getting it with both barrels from most folks here, but brother...you have to see that she has still done nothing to show herself to be safe.

She has SAID much.

She has DONE nothing.