SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

What I'm learning - and it pisses me off plenty - is that I - as the BS - actually have to figure out how to forgive MYSELF for all the shit that my WS did & caused. But I'm learning that I need that compassion for me. That I am somehow ashamed of WANTING all of those things that I thought I had. It seems so counterintuitive, but that's where I am. Maybe you could use some self compassion too?

Omg - I sobbed through your entire response bc it hit on so much. I do need to forgive myself. I am ashamed for wanting those things. Hell, I was a little ashamed of even getting married in my 50s - seemed not very feminist and something for younger people. But yes, like you on the porch in your twenties - we made all of these plans (in the hammock) and they weren't so far off - living in Europe part of the year, things we would create together, the ways we'd make our home even more comfortable. They were lovely dreams and they were good and possible, had I not married a narc-cheater.

I'm not old and I'm not an old 56 by any stretch but I knew living in Europe alone would be hard as I got older - knowing we had each other opened up a lot of possibilities that I might not have considered on my own. It made me a little bolder - even artistically because he so fiercely believed in me - or so I thought. Now, he finds subtle ways to make digs about how I need to improve this or that in my next project.

So, yes - I have to forgive myself, and grieve these beautiful dreams - some I don't think I will be able to do on my own but that's not to say they can't be replaced with new dreams.

Thank you GMC.

Here's what happens: They promise what you want and look all cool-as-shit providing something close. Then they get tired of that and they start swaying back and forth (like your STBX has). Because you're accustomed to trusting them and believing them and you've built up your Personal Narrative (more on that later) on _them_ you are unsettled. You look to them (the unsettling force) for Making Things Better and Like They Used To Be. The inherent falsehood there is that they were _never_ that settled, they were always _un_settled, and what you wove into your Personal Narrative was a _lie_.

That's about as perfect a summation as could be.

And, fuck you are right - I am as crazy as him right now. On the bright side - at least I'm not as crazy and a cheater and I have no intention of staying here. Believe me, I do have those moments where I ask myself wtf I'm doing - I do but they don't stick around forever - there's this liminal emotional space I fall into that is removed from all reality and has me feeling like my sanity or survival or happiness is dependent on him or there being an "us."

It's like GMC said I cycle through every possible angle/idea in a second regarding this.

The suicide thing is just more gaslighting bc on one hand the threats are somewhat veiled and not totally explicit but I sit there going between - "he's just manipulating me" and "omg, what if he actually does something I could've stopped him?" I feel dumb taking them seriously and panicked not taking them seriously.

It is who he has always been and always will be, and no amount of love and rose colored glasses will ever change it. And interestingly, one of the biggest lies they try and get you to believe is that if you just hang in there with them, it will all be different. That only your continued love can make them a better person. Their ability to control you depends on you believing that lie. And as soon as you do you're back on the shelf, until you are no longer yourself. This is what we are trying to spare you.

As hopeless as I seem, I so hope you all continue to try to talk sense into me.

My rose colored glasses are pretty thick. At least you got ribs - I marvel at how he can come by the house and not offer to pull down the trash cans or something - he's not even trying to be chivalrous or helpful, let alone court me. He just expects to come back home after cheating with literally more women than he can count for the entirety of our marriage. And you're right, every time I respond to his crumbs it emboldens him to be even more vile to me.

I did believe that my love was going to heal all of his childhood pain, his low self-esteem, finally give him the family and home he'd always wanted - how foolish. By his age, with his charm, intelligence and good looks he could have had those things 50x over if he were sincere and not a total user.

It makes me think my ego is over-inflated - why would I think I could somehow magically be the answer to another fucked up human's problems? Who the hell do I think I am??? And how naive to believe none of the other women in his life had tried or really loved him. He claimed every woman he'd ever been with had cheated on him.

How incredibly naive I was to believe his stories. He is magnetic and very handsome - women swoon over him - and yet, here he is nearly fifty and single, never been married - how dumb I was to think I was the first decent woman he'd ever fallen in love with. He was just ready for the trappings of marriage. He was tired of being a lone wolf - all his friends were married. Clubbing in middle age isn't so cute. I had some assets, security, status in the community - he just wanted my life.

I remember early on when we were very casually dating I brought him to a friend's house - she's very beautiful and has a lovely home. She had these full moon sauna get togethers in her yard - as we were leaving he asked me if she owned her house and if she was married. I later found out he immediately went home and friended her on facebook and later made plans to meet up with her at an event. I happened to go with him to the event so they never met. In hindsight, he was shopping for a woman with her own home. It always struck me as odd - that he asked if she was married but I didn't know him terribly well so I tried to dismiss it.

It was never about me. He put on his mask and went shopping for a wife. I was dumb enough to fall for it.

Bingo! I'm so impressed. You got it! You see it. It sucks, but it's better than being blind to it. I get it. I was blind too. Read my profile. We are so similar it's down right eerie. You're getting it way sooner than I did.

Don't beat yourself up by thinking you have an over inflated ego. It's the exact opposit, but you've had enough explaining for one day. But it's awesome that you are asking that question because you are absolutely going to find the answer and it will set you free.

Now write that list, while you're seeing this clearly. Even if it's a couple of things. Start with the incident with the friend with the lovely home and how you see it now as opposed to then. Maybe add a little every day. I suggest you get a really big note pad.

Have you written the list yet?

Skeetermooch, there's a difference between you being as fucked up as he is and him being as fucked up as he is.

You've been sane before. You remember being sane and happy and doing just fun stuff. He's been nucking futs all of his life.

You are wanting to get back to sane and he's just trying to drag you back down. Misery loves company, AmIRite?

Seriously, write the list. Just start remembering each separate fucked-up thing. Write it down. Next fucked-up thing, next line. Just keep on doing that for a bit. When you run out take a look at the list and marvel at how long it is. Keep the list with you.

Here's a start:

1. He lies.

2. He lies to me.

3. He lies to everyone.

4. He lies to get what he wants.

5. Everything is always what _he_ wants.

6. He lies and promises to change.

7. Nothing ever changes.

8. He walked in and took a key.

9. Son has to stand up to him for me.

10. He acts nicer when I'm gone and meaner when I get closer to him.

11. ???

I have started the list. And you all made me laugh, which I seriously needed. And your support and wisdom are so incredible. I'm floundering over here and my friends are sick of hearing it and it's the holidays so no therapy for a few weeks. You have saved my ass big time.

Thank you.

I'd recommend taking a picture on your phone of the list when you're done. Then you can leave the Master List at home and just zoom in on the pic if you want.

You won't get over it immediately, but The List helped me get over xWGF more quickly. I eventually (didn't take too long, this) realized that I was being treated exactly as she'd treated every other man in every other relationship that she'd ever had. I was just number X in a list, and that that list would keep on growing until she fixed herself.

You will come to realize the same thing. Every relationship that he's ever had is the same. Heck, you might even want to check the public records database(s) to see if he's been married before.

First girl I dated after xWW told me about 1 marriage. Public records showed two for her name with her address. Then there was the girl who told me about 1 or 2 previous marriages. Turned out I found 6 or so, she confessed to 10, and I found out that her son was in prison in another state for child sexual abuse. Could not run fast enough on that one. Then the stalking started. I No Contact-ed her for a bit and she just faded away. That was The Girl Who'd Had 10 Husbands. There are a lot of stories in The Girl Who series... sigh.

There are some real doozies out there. You and I have both found our share, eh?

Turns out my 'picker' was broken. I might've fixed it, might've not. Tried, though. You can fix yours as well.

But that's a lesson for another time. You need to get out of your current situation, first.

P.S. You're coming around, slowly but surely, and that's to be expected. Keep working on it. Remember that rarely do decisions have to be made Right Now. If they're breathing and not bleeding decisions can wait. Learn to say, "I'll have to think about that." Also remember that "No." is a complete sentence. People tend to fill a silence with talking. If you're quiet, they'll often talk and often give clues to you.

I've been doing the list right on my phone. Do you think a handwritten copy is beneficial? There's some wisdom around writing things by hand - I should google this.

The list is surreal - one entry lists various cities he saw hookers in - so much betrayal in one line. The words are insufficient to the true trauma of these acts. I don't even have all of the info - I didn't count when I did my snooping months ago - there was too much - I've sort of wanted to put a number to it but I can't put myself through looking at all the credit card statements, etc. again.

Then, there are the items I have no actual proof of like my pretty friend with the house - am I imagining his motives, making something out of nothing, as he likes to tell me?

My picker has gone downhill as I've gotten older - so much for getting wiser. I've gotten involved with three people I'm certain have personality disorders. In my younger years I don't think there were any. I'm drawn to their charm and social ease. I tend to be shy and reserved. The love-bombing is also pretty fun until it stops.

10 marriages and you didn't want to be 11??? Ha. My STBX's mother was married 11 times and his sister 10 or so. I wonder if they lied to their husbands? I did search his criminal history once - he has one - explained it as a nervous breakdown - one crazy month in his life a long, long time ago. I bought that too.

It was his career success that got me to overlook a lot. He's was kind of a star in a field I used to work in - I was very impressed by his accomplishments and talent. That made me extrapolate that he must be okay, sane, smart, normal. I couldn't conceptualize that someone as smart as him, as likable, could be a scumbag of this magnitude - I guess I theoretically know it's possible - but even with my cluster b dating history, he's next level.

I know he cheated on everyone he dated (he claims they cheated too and first of course - because he's the eternal victim). He actually volunteered this info to me early on and explained how he'd taken some time to be single and work on himself and how he wasn't that person anymore. I think that he offered it up to me on his own gave him a lot of credibility.

I texted with a woman he used to cheat on his fiancé with many years ago. He was early thirties and she was 18. He was a mentor/authority figure to her in a college-work situation. He seduced her, used her and discarded her when his fiancé found out.

It was very disturbing to know that my husband did this. What decent man in his 30s has sex with an 18 year old in a parking garage and other public places - under any circumstances, let alone when they are mentoring them? Nearly 20 years later she's still dealing with the trauma in therapy, she said. And the sickest part - he friended/followed her on Facebook around the time we got married. She blocked him.

Just another item for the list.

I think putting stuff on your phone as it comes to mind is great. Then transfer it to a written running list when you have a chance. The visual of a written list has more impact in my opinion. If it's only on your phone you are seeing stuff one small screen at a time.

The issue of the 18 year old he was mentoring is frightening and speaks volumes about who he is. It showed his predatory nature.

I've given a lot of thought to my picker as well. It is less that you and I picked a person like that, than it is that they saw something weak in us that made them pick us. I was very attractive (sorry if that sounds awful) sucessful at my job and smart. I think he saw that I was a people pleaser and a fixer. Often to my own detriment. It made me a perfect target for his flattery.

Knowing that about myself has saved me from repeat performances. We are all different so don't take this as a warning of what your life will be like. I'm 61 and I have no desire to have a relationship or get married again. I dated a few people, one for a couple of years, since my SO. I got better at seeing the red flags. In part because of my list.

Part of the issue for me is that I live in a small rural, historic town that has a large tourism industry, which does not have a lot of high paying, stable jobs. Other than that, most men my age have been in the construction industry, and self employed all their lives. As they reach their 60s, these single men are realizing they can't do construction forever, and given their self employment, virtually none of them have ever put anything aside for retirement. I have more than once attracted men who are interested in my house, and the pension I'm going to collect when I retire. I know that sounds cynical, but I'd rather be cynical than stupid again. I have no more desire the take care of another grown up than I have expectations of someone taking care of me. And I'm happy which is all that matters.

dm on dating at 20: Everybody is single, so since about 3 percent (-ish) of the population are cluster b, you're fairly safe.

jaded dm on dating at 35 plus: Most of the good ones are long-term married, so the cluster b in the dating pool percentage is way up. Your first job dating is to find out why your date is single. Ask. Then watch and see if actions match words.

dm on actions: Watch them.

dm on words: Trust but verify. Where you can't verify, ask yourself, "What other possible explanations are there?"

dm on people: They tell you what they think sounds most acceptable. Ask yourself, "What's the worst possible reason that they did what they just talked about?" The truth is somewhere between that and their story, usually.

dm on actions again: They treat you just like they've treated every other dating partner, ever. I'm just an average guy. Do their actions match this fact?

Aside: I really am average. In almost every area, I am at the top of the bell-curve, which means I am a really good example of average overall. In other words, I am not exceptional.

dm on love bombing: Run. Now. This isn't healthy and where one red flag is waving, more are hidden by the first. And around the corner. And behind those.

In my view, people do what benefits them. There's Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs: physiological (i.e. air, food, water), safety (e.g. shelter, housing), love, esteem, and self-actualization. Where do I meet a need? Do I want a relationship with someone who needs me at that particular level?

I learned from SI that we train people how to treat us by what we accept. What am I willing to accept? From SI, and SI-related reading, the person who does the most in a relationship has the most to lose. From life, that people value a thing based upon the amount of effort it took to get it. People treat well things that have the bigger investment of their time and effort.

Stuff to think about, but back to your list...

Yes, put the woman with the house actions on the list. I don't bet, but I bet that if she had been a better, easier mark than you were then she'd be the one with this problem now and not you. Also, the friending of the 18 year old cheating partner goes on the list.

Regarding writing vs. typing/phone based list - Writing works for me, then taking a picture and ensuring that pictures are automatically uploaded and backed up. I don't think that there's an especial advantage to writing, though I do think that writing is faster and easier than typing on a phone, so I can think about the list a bit more as I'm writing it. But that's personal for me, down to thumb-typing speed, etc.

Also the art thing probably should go on the list. At first he supported it, now he makes digs at it.

One more for you: He put me on this emotional rollercoaster, damn it!

One other thing: Break out each city in which he cheated into its own line.

* He cheated in Philadelphia.

* He cheated in Boston.

* He cheated in Phoenix.

* He cheated in Santa Fe.

* He cheats in every city that he goes to.

* He's cheated in 35 of 50 states.

* He's cheated in more states than we've had vacations to.

There's Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs: physiological (i.e. air, food, water), safety (e.g. shelter, housing), love, esteem, and self-actualization. Where do I meet a need? Do I want a relationship with someone who needs me at that particular level?

This explains a lot. I realize now he needed me to fill the lower needs - housing, belonging, security - and once those needs were met by marrying me - he was off to self-actualize. I was truly about unmet needs.

Whereas, I have those lower needs met and I'm solidly in the self-actualization phase - not to say it's 100% and ideal all the time - but I was looking for someone also in the self-actualization phase to compliment, collaborate and share that journey. He's not that person. And using someone else to fill those lower tier needs is probably not the best way to do it, I'm assuming - acquiring some of that on your own steam seems a lot more solid.

He resents me because his entire pyramid collapses without me.

Yes, if only I'd read that before I married this guy

I have more than once attracted men who are interested in my house, and the pension I'm going to collect when I retire. I know that sounds cynical, but I'd rather be cynical than stupid again.

I'd rather be cynical too. I'm not dating anyone with less assets than I have, if I ever date again. I don't want to ever again have to consider that I was just a stable platform and retirement plan.

[This message edited by skeetermooch at 3:42 PM, December 30th (Monday)]

DM,

Your list of cities has more than a few hits. Of course, you could throw a dart anywhere in the US and have a pretty good chance of hitting a city he cheated in

I'm not dating anyone with less assets than I have

Sigh. If only it were that easy. I agree with

I don't want to ever again have to consider that I was just a stable platform and retirement plan.

Then I'm fulfilling a basic survival need instead of the love, esteem and helping with the self-actualization needs.

But the first quote? First, I am _not_ rich. But - I put in 33 years at one company, retired with a 401k (though xWW gutted savings and more until the divorce) and a pension. I happen to be good at what I do (though not much else!), so the long and the short of it is...

As a divorced male I have more savings/retirement than most of the divorced females that I've met. To get there I've had like 2?, 3? vacations in the last 20 yrs. I don't go out a bunch. I wait for the DVD of a movie to come out and _then_ I wait for it to hit the bargain bin price. I cook instead of going out to eat, mostly. My car is a 2010. 2 years ago my then-car was a 1999.

But, how does a man who has frankly been rather lucky in that department find a woman who is equally-ish lucky? How long do you wait until you start probing her financial situation? If she's "dating for survival" rather than a higher Maslow need, how likely is she to tell me that?

And - the "lucky" retirement part extends to me, only. Two people, two insurances, two cars, all of that would drain me pretty quickly.

Also, skeetermooch, a question: You stated a couple posts above that you were dating for the highest Maslow need, self-actualization. Are you sure that you weren't dating for the lower needs of love and esteem? Because dating at those levels are where you get into trouble with love-bombing, flattery, etc. If you're secure in those things then the phony love-bombing sounds, frankly, phony.

Or is that just my cynicism coming out?

edited to add: Sorry I hit the cities. I just picked some of the bigger, travel-destination ones.

[This message edited by devotedman at 4:22 PM, December 30th, 2019 (Monday)]

Devotedman is a genius.

Skeetermooch, every word he typed is gold. And please please don't feel like any of us are piling on you or that you're disappointing anyone. As he said, we've all gone into the basement. You are experiencing a normal reaction to finding out that the man you loved the most was a fraud and an illusion. It makes no sense, like waking up and finding that your dog was actually a cat all along. It takes time for your brain to settle and regain it's footing. That's why the list is so important. I had an extensive one. I wrote my XWH 5 page letters that I never sent that I re-read every time I thought "Oh hey, perhaps he does know what empathy is" or "maybe he's not as horrible as I thought". My XWH comes across as a real sweetheart. Gentle and kind, humble and empathetic. Finding out that this wasn't who he really was absolutely fucked me up. My brain crashed like a faulty hard drive. It was like asking my computer to calculate how blue the phone ran. You're going through the thick of this mindfuckery right now. You will be okay, though. Promise. We've got you.

I am going to do a visualization for you.

You and your h are sitting at a table drinking coffee. Periodically he puts a little poison in each cup. You both sip a little. Your son is standing there begging you not to drink it but you do anyway. So he drinks some. Now the whole family is poisoned. Toxicity pulls the innocent bystanders in. It’s that contagious.

Also, skeetermooch, a question: You stated a couple posts above that you were dating for the highest Maslow need, self-actualization. Are you sure that you weren't dating for the lower needs of love and esteem? Because dating at those levels are where you get into trouble with love-bombing, flattery, etc. If you're secure in those things then the phony love-bombing sounds, frankly, phony.

I don't know - I'm sure there were some amounts of other needs in there - the thing I was most excited about was self-actualization and his love-bombing was very much around my art and me as an artist. I'm make some very edgy political art. People love me or don't get it typically. So, his admiration and enthusiasm and similar vision was really exciting. I was imagining collaborating on projects, bouncing things back and forth - traveling to openings together.

I was dating two other people when I met him - I was trying the poly thing because I didn't want to get serious. I felt a lot of love and friendship from them and for them. So, I wasn't consciously craving any of the lower needs. Of course, I'm open to the idea that I have some blindspots - clearly, I do

As for you dating at your level - the wage gap being what it is I do think it's harder for men looking for women.

Men make more, many women are out of the work force raising kids for many years and thus don't accumulate as much in retirement, etc. The psychology of women seeking men for security isn't necessarily narcissim or pathology, it may be cultural or practical - but it could be a con - therein lies your dilemma.

I wish I had some answers - I guess the general advice to date long enough to see the skeletons in the closet. I think it could be ok meeting lower needs and higher needs together provided it isn't too skewed. It's kind of the norm that men have more - so not necessarily a doomed set up.

I have prepared well for my retirement and still I find it off putting when I'm dating and I can tell a man is trying to make sure I'm not a gold-digger. Some men even makes reference to that in their dating profiles - huge turn off. I'm a little old fashioned I guess and also indignant - close the wage gap pals and we won't be looking for wealthy husbands

Like you I've sacrificed to have security. My car is a 2004. I figure a new car payment is equivalent to a trip or two to Europe every year and I'd prefer the trip.

[This message edited by skeetermooch at 12:29 AM, December 31st (Tuesday)]

Devotedman is a genius.

He most certainly is! And he's very generous with his time and advice, for which I'm most appreciative!

It makes no sense, like waking up and finding that your dog was actually a cat all along.

OMG, you find the perfect similes.

This is it - it's such a mind fuck - up is down, down is up - my brain is spinning. I'm very much a person who needs to know the hows and whys before I accept something. I'm never going to get that in this situation so I just have to read the list and accept it is what it is and it doesn't make sense.

Toxicity pulls the innocent bystanders in.

Cooley, that is a terrible and important visualization. My son has gotten pulled into this. I can see the wheels turning for him - trying to make sense of my STBXs sudden crazy behavior. It breaks my heart. He's doing ok - but he's acting protective and occasionally will say he hopes things get back to normal, meaning my STBX comes home. Other times he's clear he doesn't want him around - I hate this.