SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I dated a real fraud once. I was 22 and he knew how to “con” me. Lucky for me someone was nice enough to tell me what a loser he was. I never would have seen it.

You are lucky that you can now see him for what he is. Better late than never.

Yes, that's a very good point, 1stWife. Some people are really really good at the con. I am not a stupid woman, Skeetermooch. I am an independent woman with a decent career and a respectable IQ and I got as thoroughly snowed as you did. I got snowed for 7 years. I am over my XWH and I'd like to say over the infidelity, but the lingering struggle is the anger and shame at being made such a complete a fool of. That is hard to come to terms with. That is the final thing I have to heal from. I understand the shame completely. It's not on you or me to feel this shame and logically we can get that, but it's not easy to let it go. It seriously fucks with my pride.

I have prepared well for my retirement and still I find it off putting when I'm dating and I can tell a man is trying to make sure I'm not a gold-digger. Some men even makes reference to that in their dating profiles - huge turn off. I'm a little old fashioned I guess and also indignant - close the wage gap pals and we won't be looking for wealthy husbands

I completely agree with this observation. And there is another thing to consider. Women who are self sufficient are often the target of male gold diggers. We don't hear a lot about that, because of the wage gap. In fact, men like your STBXH don't get labeled as gold diggers. They are users. Why? What's the difference?

Both sexes are equally capable of this. The difference is that men are taught growing up how to recognize and avoid gold diggers. Even young professional athletes are now given classes when drafted onto professional teams on how to protect their new high end incomes from women and other unscrupulous people. Women get no such advice, because it never ocurres to anyone to do that. This is why the number one thing that bugs me on this site is when general statements are made about women being after money.

Skeeter, the fact that you have now recognized this in him is a real mile stone. I know you still hurt, and you will for a while. But you have already made tremendous strides from your first posts.

Skeetermooch, you are getting great advise and I’m truly grateful for you sharing. As I read your words I keep nodding my head, knowingly. Those of us who come here gain so much help and insight from posters as well as those replying.

My WH has a borderline personality disorder. I didn’t know there was such a thing, I just assumed his behavior was his normal and I would come away feeling crazy. I slowly buried my hunch, my gut and ignored my instincts.

After my WH joined the dating sight Match and I took my ring off, he called a MC. I thought okay, this is a huge effort on his part to make amends. You see, he joined Match because he saw a pop up for the dating sight on the laptop and was so insecure that I was cheating, that he created a profile to see if I was a member. He found a picture of me within my single friends profile (it was a group picture) and woke me up at 1am raging and screaming. We addressed this in MC and MC focused on helping him and myself to understand HIS insecurities, which led him to join a dating sight.

About 8 months into MC my WH joined a SECOND, dating sight, this time Ashley Maddison. It was as if MC had given him a reason to join hookup sights - his insecurities. MC again focused on his insecurities and why was he looking for ME on these hookup sights again? I about thought I would commit myself. I stopped going to MC and found dick pics. I wrote one last email to the MC who he was still seeing alone to let her know the distance (dick pics) he was willing to go to ease his insecurities about me joining hookup sights.

I was driving in the car with WH when a text came through from his MC stating “I can no longer be of service to you as you have not been forthcoming”.

I think the idea of writing down the behaviors is fantastic, especially for those of us who were not provided a time line.

the lingering struggle is the anger and shame at being made such a complete a fool of. That is hard to come to terms with.

Ugh - it is so completely embarrassing. I feel like if I had not married him or not moved in together before that I could have avoided a whole lot of this nonsense.

But like 1st wife said there are con artists and they swoop in when there's an opening and some of them are just that damn good.

Beyond shame, there's a feeling that I can't trust my own judgement, that haunts me. I was a few years out of shitty relationship and I was in IC and doing a lot of self-work and had big plans for living out my years as a single woman accomplishing goals and spending time with the kids. How could I have been that woman and gotten into this relationship? How did I let this happen?

When I love someone I love to make them happy, and marriage was what he wanted more than anything so I tossed out my agenda and gave it to him. I betrayed myself.

[This message edited by skeetermooch at 1:54 PM, December 31st (Tuesday)]

My WH has a borderline personality disorder. I didn’t know there was such a thing, I just assumed his behavior was his normal and I would come away feeling crazy. I slowly buried my hunch, my gut and ignored my instincts.

Yes, there's that - who knew people could be wired this way and that we are supposed to be looking out for them?? No one taught us that in school!

Your husband sounds a little like mine - his insecurity is one of his many excuses - so, what am I do with that? He's obviously pathologically insecure - so I should expect infidelity every time something makes him feel bad? But, everything other than hero worship makes him feel bad so, not very doable. If he's stressed at work or thinks I'm not being affectionate enough or I'm being too needy or he fears I could leave him etc etc. He even used a lackluster vacation as an excuse for seeing an escort recently.

Every disappointment in life is soothed by cheating apparently.

[This message edited by skeetermooch at 2:01 PM, December 31st (Tuesday)]

How could I have been that woman and gotten into this relationship? How did I let this happen?

Right? Tell me about it. I am not the woman who would marry a serial cheater. Nope. That would never happen. I am way too good for that nonsense. Ha.

You are far from alone in this crap. And yes, same, I married him because it meant so much to him only to be told afterwards that he just married me because "it's what I was supposed to do". Neither one of us will ever know what of it they meant at any given time because we were dealing with crazy. We didn't know that we were dealing with crazy, so it made sense for us to believe what these men told us and showed us because we don't read minds. We can only operate based on the information given. Neither of our husbands said "I am going to tell you how much I love and adore you and then sleep with prostitutes behind your back". Had we known that, we'd have not dated much less married these guys. We are not to blame for being lied to.

Every disappointment in life is soothed by cheating apparently.

Apparently even "I was insecure about the size of my penis", which can only be cured by paying strangers to handle his penis. I guess. Who would have thought it? Mine accidentally had a candid moment and told me "I was on a lot of dating sites, but I suck at being a player so I had to start paying people". I promise you that I was as utterly shocked as you were to find out that things like this were going on while I was happily married to him.

I know what it's like to live through the mindfuck of realizing that you don't even know this person whom you thought you knew like the back of your hand. Your confusion is so understandable.

I made the huge mistake in my M by not being completely financially independent of my WH. He's always made a lot more than I did. I got a graduate degree, but then only worked part time. Then, after he was balls deep in his PA, I took a job making substantially less than what i would have made (and my job does not require my graduate degree). So, I will have spent nearly 15 years not using that degree to its full advantage - to my financial detriment (and bc I HAVE the degree, even at my age, alimony may be tricky, even with a HUGE income disparity that I would never be able to close - just not enough years left in my life).

Meanwhile, WH and all his brokenness (and the suicide attempt didn't help) is falling apart at work, so his income will probably decline....

So - if I'm out in the dating pool, I suspect potential male dates would see me as a gold digger. Nothing like being a discarded woman in my mid (?) 50s.....

So - if I'm out in the dating pool, I suspect potential male dates would see me as a gold digger. Nothing like being a discarded woman in my mid (?) 50s.....

Above that you say that you have a job. That's an important part of -not- being a gold-digger at least in my book.

We all think the grass is greener. You're afraid that you'll be seen as a gold-digger. I'm afraid that I can't supply the 'normal' male-provider role.

Then there's the statistic that says Don't Worry, 95+% of what we worry about never happens anyway.

Then there's the statistic that says Don't Worry, 95+% of what we worry about never happens anyway.

Yes!

We didn't know that we were dealing with crazy

That's it - it's just crazy. My STBX isn't a straight up con man - he's crazy - he does love me, he does believe he's a victim, he does feel pain. He also commits great harm with minimal thought around it. He doesn't get things the most basic and simple-minded amongst us get - right and wrong.

I didn't know. I didn't know crazy could have a good job and the respect of his peers. I didn't know crazy could come off as rational and thoughtful and gentle and kind.

I suppose I knew theoretically that there were irredeemable people, people who can't be saved but I figured I'd see one coming - that I wouldn't fall for them.

My STBX isn't a straight up con man - he's crazy - he does love me, he does believe he's a victim, he does feel pain. He also commits great harm with minimal thought around it. He doesn't get things the most basic and simple-minded amongst us get - right and wrong.

What you're describing is from your point of view. The above is part of your personal narrative, and changing those sorts of beliefs is very hard (if they need to be changed, that is).

From an outside observer's point of view he sounds immature, entitled, self-indulgent, addicted to the 'high' of excitement and physical contact and, bluntly, orgasm. His level of self-indulgence seems to border on a Cluster B personality disorder (read up on those, why don't you, if you haven't already). Those take a trained person to diagnose, however, and I'm not one.

See, he commits great harm _to_ _other_ _people_. That's thoughtlessness, lack of empathy, etc. and those are signs of Cluster B, but they're also signs of "asshole." And you say that he loves you, but love is an action. Love is being considerate. Love is sometimes putting others needs and/or wants above your own. Not always, perhaps not often, but it is there. And it isn't there in him.

In another thread of yours you talk about how you reacted to him calling. I was so bad about xWGF dumping me and then calling and then dumping and then kissing and hugging and then dumping that I got a PM from a man I respected. He basically said, invective included, "DM, what the fuck do you think that you're doing?" He was right.

So, drag out The List and read it. 3 times. Resolve to do better next time and if you don't, well, you're human. Do better the time after that (and re-read The List 3 times).

Heck, it even seems like you have some new items to add.

* He wants to rugsweep.

* He wants me to just accept this and shut up.

* He doesn't _act_ loving. He only _words_ it. Actions, not words.

DM,

You're spot on. I've read up a lot on cluster bs and he's most certainly anti-social with a heaping helping of narcissistic features and an attachment disorder.

He loves like a toddler loves their caregivers - selfishly, a mostly wild animal seeking to shove whatever it wants in its mouth and tantrum when denied. He's not capable of mature love nor empathy.

I know he's not a safe person to be in a relationship with and will never be.

I feel like I've let go of the fantasy of getting back together (I hope - I know I could be kidding myself or this could be temporary). I feel empathy for him too (I'm too damn empathetic) because it must suck to go through life like he does. Granted it sucks more for us on the receiving end, but we can recover and go live a sane life with sane people.

It's hard for me to know how to feel about him. Is this a phase towards accepting he sucks? Right now, I don't hate him. I understand he comes by his brokenness honestly - horrendous upbringing - and that could've happened to any of us. My therapist says it's pretty near impossible to fix attachment disorders. Even though he's diligently doing therapy and taking meds, that are supposed to chill out his impulses, I can see they aren't making a dent.

My priority is to save myself obviously and even if I didn't care a whit about myself I can't save him anyway. This all sucks.

I'm going to read my list and read my list because my empathy is a danger and I can't forget what he's done and will continue to do.

_Having_ empathy isn't a bad thing. That's why dogs are cool.

Letting empathy govern our actions _is_ a bad things. That's your trouble.

I've known people who are damaged. I can like those folks. I can feel empathy for those folks. I can understand from where their problems stem. I cannot fix their problems. I cannot let them embroil me into their lives such that _their_ problems become _my_ problems.

You can't do that either.

It is sad that you can't save the world. It is sad that I can't save the world. Nobody can save the world, we can just save ourselves.

Letting empathy govern our actions _is_ a bad things. That's your trouble.

I'm sure you're right. I've always been this way to varying degrees - thinking if I don't help them nobody will. I suppose I get something out of helping people or loving the unlovable. I don't know. Some defect in me. I was reading the How to Kill a Narcissist book last night and it had some good explanations as I recall, even if I don't recall exactly what they were I'll have to re-read.

I'll tell you what - if common sense doesn't get me on the right track, this exhaustion will. I simply don't have the strength to care so much right now. It's too hard and it only buys me pain.