SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

So, my STBX went to marriage counseling today(alone) and somehow persuaded the MC into emailing me to request a one on one session to ascertain if there's any path left to move forward in the marriage.

I'm trying to do NC and 180, but I'm wobbly. I'm not 1000% there. I don't want to be cornered into anything. On one hand, I want to go see this MC bc who knows wtf kind of bs my idiot STBX is feeding him. If there's any hope of helping this fool it's if his therapist knows the truth and I highly doubt he's getting it. MC is my STBX's IC.

On the other hand, not my job. And he's not my IC, so he's not going to help me move towards what's healthiest for me. He's only there to help the marriage. I don't want him talking me into re-engaging. Mostly, I doubt he could but, like I said, I'm wobbly.

My STBX is freaking out bc he knows I'm moving forward with the divorce, but not freaking out enough to show remorse or fulfill any promises.

I guess this is the part where the storm gets really bad and you have to batten down the hatches and ride it out.

This is your choice. No one else's

I would not recommend that. This means hes been talking and possible manipulating the councelor.

Mine went off and continued to the M.C. following more trickle truth...unbeknownst to me.

My advice is to let him freak out. If hes anything like my husband, he probably feels like you dont have the strength to follow through.

He needs to see an IC for his issues, not the marriage guru, that's being deliberately manipulated and gaslighted, herself... any meeting will be because he orchestrated it. You said hes been blame-shifting on you, so his goal is to hope the councelor conspires in his manipulative game.

Yes, I'm sure his end goal is to get the MC to believe his blame shifting bs.

I'm not even clear on their relationship - the counselor became his IC after we met him as our MC. He said if he saw me individually as well it could only be to work on how to heal the marriage but I think he's doing regular IC with my STBX.

Idk wtf these people are doing. But I do think he's got the counselor a little snowed for sure.

I don't want to be cornered into saying yes there's hope or no there's no hope bc I've still got a stupid shred of attachment left. And, I don't want to fuck up my 180. I want my STBX to believe I'm 100% ready to divorce on the very off chance it snaps him out of this. Any convo with the MC will reveal my ambivalence.

Skeeter-

We were doing the same thing...seperate and together...MCs arent trained much if any in regards to infidelity...especially narc SAs. Well beyond their realm of specialty.

Once I finally started seeing an IC, we discussed this subject. She has heard this before and doesnt seem to have much respect for them. My IC agreed with me in that victims of SA, should be addressed as victims of abuse and provided scientific and statistical facts because a lot of women are not aware of the reality. An M.C. has no concept of what they are dealing with, in terms of an SA. My husband lied about the extent of his problem...so we talked about finances as a concern, as he was purchasing whores.

Sadly, most councelors are not formally trained in recognizing personality disorders, let alone what runs comorbid of them. It is not part of their training... an honest therapist will admit this. My own therapist admitted she was learning from me, as I am her. I respect her for that. Shes probably the first councelor I've had that actually listens.

There are councelors that specialize in SA, but honestly, it like putting band aid on your toe, when you're having chest pain. Lol I have to keep the humor, otherwise I'll die. Seriously though, SA is almost always a symptom in narcissism...the larger picture would need to be treated and there really is no treating a narc. Some will claim it, as a means to sell you their snake oil.

I would recommend someone that specializes in trauma...a woman, at that. Dump the m.c., in terms of your healing...shes working as marriage mediator...she isnt in your corner.

[This message edited by DashboardMadonna at 11:04 PM, December 18th (Wednesday)]

The MC has a long history treating SA - he's been in the field for 25-30 years and started the program at this prestigious residential treatment place in the US. Not to say it isn't a bunch of horse shit.

My very unprofessional opinion is that SA is just a new fangled way of saying personality disordered. IMO all SAs are cluster B's. SA is in the zeitgeist simply because it wasn't possible to have this much transactional sex pre-internet. Before you went to a seedy stroll or a scummy bookstore - if you were in a city or large enough town. Now, you can be anywhere and find sex at the varying price points and quality levels and even arrange to have it delivered to your house.

Internet + Cluster B = SA. The ease of access to paid sex has probably made PD people so much worse than they might be without it.

The few times I met with the MC and my STBX I got the sense that maybe he was being very ginger in handling my STBX bc he recognizes how disordered he is, but I don't know bc I only went 3 or 4 times. He's been seeing him weekly for the last 4 months and honestly my ex is still stuck on one channel - my role in his cheating which is actually not something I ever heard coming from the MC.

When I went to MC it improved our communication but my STBX continued to be the same shitty husband, continued to be shady, continued to be a weirdo around sex with me - so while it helped us to not argue it did nothing to address my trauma or my STBX's problems.

I have an IC I really like - I don't know if she specifically has a trauma background though. I see my psychiatrist once a month too but honestly I need more. I'm likely going to do a few weeks in a residential place when my oldest goes back to Europe after the holiday in mid-january.

I totally agree and relate.

I think therapists are making killing on the "addiction". It was literally a year following DD, that I decided to read about it and it's for the very reasons you describe....its a load of horse shit.

"Help! I keep my hands off my dick or out of various orifices"

My husbands line "I lost my way"...

My husband sees some SA specialist, now...mehh... theres no real accountability in what they do...their egos are fragile, so they arent going to confront them with the reality of what they have been doing. They havent empathy, so introspection is out of the question....that really is the only way to heal.

I would definately find someone for you, on a weekly basis...routing for you...maybe a feminist, in terms of this situation. LOL

P.s.- I'm sorry this is happening to you. Surreal isnt it?! It never ceases to amaze me, on how they are all exactly alike...insanity.

[This message edited by DashboardMadonna at 2:14 AM, December 19th (Thursday)]

My sex addict totally lied to a counselor we were seeing before marriage, and despite my asking how his lies could possibly fit with the rest of his story, that counselor chose to accept what he said as valid, then she reassured me. It was the catalyst in getting us married, even though I had started to wonder about his honesty, and had broken up with him!

Actually, I'd picked this "relationship counselor" LCSW in hopes she could help me understand why I'd gone along with the relationship so long as I had, with no growing commitment. Well, skeeter, right then, I made one huge mistake: she "wanted to work with him, too," since we had been dating 4 years and she said she only worked with couples.

Once there, he lied and lied, week after week, about his family of origin. He was actually a sex abuse victim and a life-long sex addict, but he claimed his family was solid, good, no bad stuff, and had even told me that he was a VIRGIN! She bought his good guy act hook, line, and sinker, and reassured me "we were destined"....I am sure he finally proposed to me because of something she had said to him in our last session!

So look at the mess I got into due to an MC!

After D-Day 1, we saw a doctoral intern counselor for a year, for 2 hour sessions each week, at the end of which he was told he needed ongoing IC, and I was told I'd never have any guarantee he wouldn't go back to his hookers - after a year of intense IC/MC!

He tried to see a clinical psychologist or 2 but said they "weren't going to help him..." so 12 years later, he was arrested for soliciting a prostitute. Supposedly his first relapse. Yeah.

His defense attorney advised it might help his sentence get suspended, so he wouldn't serve jail time, if he could see a licensed sex addiction counselor and get a letter written to the Judge, saying he was working on his issues. So we went to 2 CSATs, (certified sex addiction counselors) for initial consults. Both of them were older men, and I think both of them were quacks! One guy was likely a closet SA, himself. The look he gave me when I walked into his office was like looking at a snake in the eyes....cold, dead, gave me the shivers, almost! My SAWH saw the other one for 8 weeks "until he went on vacation" and by that time, his court case was adjudicated and the CSAT's letter didn't make any difference, he still got "6 months suspended" just like the other johns did (there were quite a few rounded up in that sting). So of course, he never went back to that CSAT, either. He wasn't interested in doing the deeper work, or possibly just couldn't be bothered.

I later read on a website of a women's sexual trauma counselor, that quite a few male CSATs are thought to be "reformed sex addicts." I have no way to verify that, but it is frightening if true. Do you really want to risk being put through any more turmoil, especially with that kind of possibility with a "helping professional?" And in any case, I think it is coercion you don't need. You already are suffering enough from what you know this man is like. I gave you the stories I did to try and illustrate the kind of long-term futility there is in playing MC with a sex addict. Low odds of progress.

I really agree with what DashboardMadonna is saying, and I think it is absolutely criminal that victims of sex addicts are not given the truth about the depths of pathology in these individuals.

You are under no obligation to go see his MC, just because he is having a hard time facing the consequences of his sick, probably borderline "splitting" women into Wife on the one hand, and Whores on the other!

Superesse yes!

I think the SA "specialists" are too. Infact, There are one of two with YouTube channels, that completely coddle the SA. Narcs love attention, so of course "recovering" SA councelors have to take it to stage, it's another Avenue to garner attention.

I feel that way about the concept of SA meetings. I figure the "recovering" ones are the overt types that run the meetings. Of course they will claim Jesus, if it means another Avenue for supply. They are the used car salesmen of society...they are master manipulators.

The same types run churches...look at the BTK killer, if you want to see some parallels... creepy.

I also agree about how they closet their child abuse...my husband explained his relationship with his mother as "close"... lies. Lies LIES...kind of sad because I think he wished that, while hating her by the next breath; where I come into play...so weak.

[This message edited by DashboardMadonna at 3:52 AM, December 19th (Thursday)]

I think there is only 1 positive that can come out of a meeting if you look at it like a business transaction.

In my jurisdiction (proper place for our divorce), the paperwork states that either party can request marriage counseling in a no fault divorce.

If you go for one visit, you can state there was marriage counseling. That removes one ground for delay.

That's the only value IMHO.

My response would be this.

"Dear Therapist,

Thank you for your interest in trying gain more services from us, however my STBXH has done zero self work, or truly committed to rebuilding our M. Therefore I have no option to protect myself from further pain and abuse. I am filing for Divorce, I do not wish to communicate with you or him about any of this current situation, and would greatly appreciate you removing my contact information from your client list."

In others not no, but Fuck No.

Tush - I love your response.

Dash, It's a lot of coddling in the sessions I went to. My STBX was clearly lying (and soon irrefutably proven to have been lying) and the therapist never pressed him or called him out. In fact on one session when my STBX was caught dead to rights but wanted to insist his lie wasn't a lie, the counselor insisted we reword lie to inaccurate. WTF?

Superesse, mine actually owns up to his sexual abuse by his step-mother and an older step-sister. Maybe that's progress but now that he's revealed it, he wields it as a conversation ender. He just throws out some horrifying detail about his 8 year old penis and yeah, no one challenges him.

Sometimes, I honestly wonder if he's making parts of the story up. I know sexual abusers are sick and women can be abusers too so I don't ever express doubt and it's pretty clear he's messed up around his sexuality but using it to justify cheating is not healing or introspection. For him it's just another reason he's entitled to cheat and lie - because shitty things have happened to him.

Blue- I think this is the case in my state as a no fault - either party can hold up the process by requesting MC and the courts will even provide it for free.

I have no hope that he will stop and I certainly have no intention of watching him white-knuckle it while I lurk around surveilling his electronics. That sounds like the crappiest life. I suppose if what I was getting in return was of more value to me, I might do it but I don't know what I'd be getting other than a warm body, that I'm afraid to have unprotected sex with.

He was a great husband in the most superficial ways, always bragging about me and "acting" devoted in a performative sense, brought me coffee in bed, opened car doors - but I was never his priority. He reneged on so many of our stated goals. He lived very, very selfishly. We didn't even have great sex after maybe a year of marriage. Even without the cheating he was disappointing.

I may go see the MC just to gain insight - to read between the lines. I don't intend on revealing very much, although given the upcoming holiday and schedules being what they are, it's doubtful it will happen until after the new year. Maybe by then it won't matter to me anymore and I can cut and paste Tush's response.

[This message edited by skeetermooch at 9:11 AM, December 19th (Thursday)]

Good morning, skeeter, you seem to have hung on to your sense of humor and perspective, rock on!

So, maybe you had come across the Y-T video of that woman's trauma counselor warning spouses of SAs against doing MC with a CSAT, because there are a number with SA histories themselves? That blew me away, and it fit with what I experienced, but of course, it would make sense they'd want to work with similar clients to help them "get saved." It's a noble concept. There was a saying in my psychology classes "most research is MEsearch" - choosing to study problems with personal relevance. Therapists are human, after all.

But, as you said here, there is a drawback for the BS when the therapist's human tendency to empathize with a fellow addict mind ends up protecting the offender's narcissism in some way.

It's one thing to break the bad news gently to a disordered person, it's quite another to have innate empathy for the SA at the expense of the ability to empathize with the betrayed spouse! I saw that, and it appears you did, too.

As usual, tush nailed it.

[This message edited by Superesse at 9:44 AM, December 19th (Thursday)]

I agree that Tush is spot on. I wouldn't worry about the MC being snowed by him. It's not your job to fix it. You are not the avenger of dishonestly everywhere.

And I think you have all the insight you need. Look at how well he snowed you for as long as he did? It's that charm they muster up when they need to gain control again. He's in all likelihood using that charm on the MC. Most likely it's those moments of charm he used on you that you are missing and wish would come back. Don't be fooled. The charm is simply a means of regaining control.

My stalker SO didn't use actual councilors to try and get be back under his spell. He used religion and the unwitting church pastors he sucked into his game. For years and years he never set foot in a church while I was going every Sunday, often with his family. Then when I left suddenly he saw the light and started attending the only church I wanted to go to. So I stopped.

And guess what? He stopped going. However recently I had a great laugh about something I read about him. He's running for US Congress for the second time. He lost in 2018. I noticed he changed his bio on his campaign web site to include the name of his "Home Church", which I know factually he hasn't set foot in in at least 15 years. People like him and your STBX will use anything they think will impress people to get what they want. True or not.

Shutting him out is the only answer. You can't be fooled by someone you can't hear.

Superesse,

My sense of humor is the only thing getting me through some days. I didn't see the video on YT but I think I get the drift. Yes, his counselor seems very well-intended but definitely over empathizing. He gave my STBX his cell number and promised to respond anytime he needed him. It's like he's trying to reparent him.

The MC alluded to having to do a lot of work in his own marriage so I instantly wondered if he wasn't a former SA himself.

[This message edited by skeetermooch at 1:07 PM, December 19th (Thursday)]

Most likely it's those moments of charm he used on you that you are missing and wish would come back. Don't be fooled. The charm is simply a means of regaining control.

Charity, I never thought of it like that but yes, you nailed it! It's the moments of charm that I mistook for his actual personality. He's foolishly not donned the charm mask, because I totally would've succumbed to it. I've as much as told him that, but still he prefers to stay angry and blame shift to his own detriment and my good fortune.

I haven't seen hide, nor hair of the man I fell in love with since mini-dday 1, 6 months ago. If I had I know we'd still be together and I'd be spending my days monitoring him.

Wow, an MC who confessed his own marriage needed a lot of work? Yeah, no. I'm with all the others here.

I'm half and half. On one hand, I can see how not going would be beneficial but on the other - I can see where it is a place you can stand up for yourself and emphasize you are done - and a professional will be there to handle his fallout.

Ultimately, when you are done, you are done - so if you feel it will not help - don't go. Don't engage with him any more than you absolutely have to...

Lucky for me I just found out the therapist and I can't coordinate schedules until mid-january. A reprieve!

MC is my STBX's IC.

This is a conflict of interest.

You can just say no. What STBX and MC want is not your problem.

((((skeetermooch))))