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I've seen some posters here say that the only real difference between friendship and marriage was sex.

I can't say I agree with that because while sex is extremely important to me, I think it actually has little to do with what marriage means to me. But to each their own.

The interesting question this raised for me was if the only difference between friendship and marriage is sex, doesn't that mean that the much-touted "emotional affair" isn't an affair since there is no sex involved? I am not sure I really believe in the concept of emotional affairs because I don't see anything wrong with intimate friendships. Where do you think the line is? Curious to hear other opinions.

I am sure some people will say, if you have to hide it from your spouse... but I don't see why you'd have to hide an emotionally intimate friendship in the first place, personally. Whenever people say no close friendships of the opposite sex, I always ask, does that mean bisexual people get no friends at all?

I don't believe that the only difference between marriage and friendship is sex. There's a lot more to it. I also place far greater importance on sex than you do. If people want to have an open sex life, that's fine for them, but in most cases where there's lack of agreement on an open marriage/relationship, sex should only be with your partner. That to mean also means that sexual conversations directed at turning each other on, shared orgasms (even if you're not physically touching, but only typing or talking), etc., should only be between partners. That kind of intimacy does not belong in a friendship, and I would not be ok with my husband having that kind of friendship. For me, this is a no brainer.

Since my husband primarily had EAs with the added bonus of sexual talk/satisfaction, I very much feel like they were affairs. They were hidden from me, and of a nature that I as his wife never agreed was ok, he had checked out of our relationship, treated me badly, planned a life with another woman, and so on. So yeah, an affair. I don't care if you call it emotional or what, it was an affair.

I think having friendships where you talk about life and such is MUCH different than what most people call an emotional affair, and is different than what people get upset about. You can have an intimate emotional friendship without an affair. The line is when it starts getting into stuff such as the stuff I stated above.

[This message edited by landclark at 4:21 PM, December 20th (Friday)]

I don't see why you'd have to hide an emotionally intimate friendship in the first place, personally.

Me neither, which is why, by hiding his "friendship" with another woman, my WH was engaging in an EA. Now, he had EAs with other women too ... women that I knew about, but did not understand what an EA was. I still think he had a PA with at least one of them, but he denies it. And I've said that if he had not had the secret EA or any part of any PA, we would probably still be chugging along in our happy M, and he'd be getting plenty of ego kibble from all those women friends, and I'd still be clueless about what an EA really is.

But he didn't do that, so his PA put me in a place to learn about EAs, and the problems they present. Not bc of the friendships, but more bc of those relationships become an escape for him to avoid having to learn to love himself. Why dig into that whole can of worms if the women-fed ego kibble is endless? Except that like any addiction, that kind of soothing is not healthy. And to me, that's the difference between a platonic friendship with an OS and and EA.

I think Shirley Glass gets into the walls/windows analogy, or it may be Gottman. Spouses are to have a window between them to allow for open and free communication - that includes a deep level of non sexual intimacy. Intimacy is between the spouses, and there are walls around that intimacy, because it is not to be shared with others outside the M. A truly platonic friendship with an OS person does not interfere with that dynamic bc it does not threaten or change where the walls of intimacy (sexual or not) are between the spouses or their outside friends - the spouse would not share, say, sexual details of their M with their OS "friend" because that is something that needs to be discussed with the other spouse - not a third party.

But in an EA, the spouse engaging switches the wall & window, such that there is a window into the AP, with the wall replacing the window that used to be / SHOULD be with the BS. Now, I do think that what levels of intimacy are Ok to share and what crosses a boundary probably varies from person to person. Personally, I did not feel threatened or offended by my WH's "work wives". But in retrospect I should have, bc one became a (albeit brief) PA. And even if his LTA EA had never turned PA, I would have felt very offended and hurt by the SECRECY of his relationship with his POSOW - bc it was a relationship that unquestionably created a wall between he and I (bc it was a secret - and even before the PA, included lying and deception), and a window between he and POSOW (bc of the secrecy and bc their conversation topics absolutely exceeded the boundaries of "friendship" intimacy [eg reminescing about how great their sex was, her sharing all the personal details of her M and her sex life. My WH denies sharing our marriage details with her, but who knows if that is or isn't the truth]). Some use the "down & dirty" description as doing or saying anything you would not do in front of your spouse - and his LTA EA absolutely fit the bill. I may be bungling this, and someone can correct me, but that's how I understand it.

I do think that Glass' book is titled "not just friends" bc her research shows that these friendships can be on the slippery slope to an EA or PA (or - in all too many cases, both).

I do not subscribe to the concept that it's not possible to have friends of the opposite sex. I have many (in fact, I've probably had more male friends than women over my lifetime - and I've never had an pA or an EA, in that I can't think of any of those friendships that were either too emotionally intimate or that created a wall between my husband and I) HOWEVER, I do believe that some folks (ie WS) just can't do it - same as alcoholics. So, IMO after an A, OS "friends" should some completely off the table. Because my WH has proven that he is incapable of holding any boundaries with other women, I am very leery of any OS friendships or even being alone with women. Just like an alcoholic should probably not work as a bartender bc it's too easy to fall back into bad thinking. And we - unfortunately - all know how easy it is for someone with wayward thinking to start lying to themselves (and we also know that, like alcoholism, WS are statistically relevant for relapse)

As for bisexuals - sounds like it would be really tough to navigate and find boundaries. As Brene Brown says, we are "wired for connection", so even WS need to have connected relationships/friendships. I assume that those who have dealt with same sex APs would have some light to shed on that front.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 4:27 PM, December 20th, 2019 (Friday)]

I forget where I read it but early on I read that EAs consist

Of three things;

1. Secrecy.

2. Physical attraction.

3. Inappropriate sharing.

I think it’s a good working model and covers all the high points and fits into the wall and window thing,but there are other red flags, especially concerning secrecy. If your spouse is in a secret relationship with a potential sexual partner, how are you gonna know if they’re physically attracted or inappropriately sharing if your kept in the dark.

My fch's A started as an EA, so I will explain what that was like. It started as a friendship, but very quickly progressed to sharing intimate details about our sex life. Although my fch was pleasant enough with me on the phone, he would ghost me for the MOW. (We were living apart due to his work so the phone was our main communication.) She had a pet name for him. Their relationship was a secret. My fch had mentioned her once, but only in passing as part of a group. There was no mention of them texting an emailing daily. There was no mention of them going out for drinks. They eventually exchanged, ILYs. They discussed leaving us, their respective spouses, to be together. It eventually turned into a PA.

ITA with Golden's list. Secrecy, physical attraction, inappropriate sharing.

The interesting question this raised for me was if the only difference between friendship and marriage is sex, doesn't that mean that the much-touted "emotional affair" isn't an affair since there is no sex involved?

I have wondered the same thing.

I don’t personally believe “EAs” are “affairs.” I believe a close relationship between a married person and an unmarried person or between two married people can certainly turn inappropriate, but I don’t see them the same as “affairs,” “infidelity,” and certainly not “adultery” (as adultery requires sex).

That, however, is simply my personal opinion and I completely respect the right of anyone else to see it differently.

The interesting question this raised for me was if the only difference between friendship and marriage is sex, doesn't that mean that the much-touted "emotional affair" isn't an affair since there is no sex involved?

Also, if this is true, then if I were to have another affair it wouldn’t be infidelity by the above quoted reasoning, because since my husband and I don’t have sex, we’re apparently just friends, and you can’t have an affair on just a friend.

Edited to add: I’m being tongue-in-cheek there about the reasoning; I am not endorsing infidelity.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 6:18 PM, December 20th (Friday)]

Hmm. I guess I see some of these things differently. As for the window analogy, I don't really think that the marital relationship is any different from friendships in terms of privacy.I want a window between me and any of the people that I get close to, not a wall. There should be the same privacy as well, for personal issues, I think. I have never subscribed to the philosophy that there should be no privacy between spouses and I certainly would not tell my husband something a close friend told me in confidence, for example.

I don't really see anything wrong with talking about my sex life either, as long as my partner knows I do so and has consented to it. Always consent, right?

landclark, I probably place a higher value on sex than you might think since I have an extremely high sex drive. I just don't place the same value on sexual fidelity specifically in my relationships. I would never cheat or encourage a mono person to cheat, for example, because I think consent is paramount.

I do agree that the type of sex talk that leads to shared orgasms, etc definitely crosses the line although I guess I wouldn't think to call that an EA either although it's not really a PA. A cyber affair, maybe? It doesn't sound like there has to be emotions involved after all.

I have not read Shirley Glass' book, although I might look into that. I suspect I won't agree with the premise but I do think that hearing other perspectives is always beneficial.

I just wholeheartedly believe that intimate friendships and connections (like the aforementioned "work spouses") can be so beneficial to our health. People need more close friends and intimacy in their lives. A spouse can't be everything to you.

[This message edited by PSTI at 7:20 PM, December 20th (Friday)]

I think it all starts with secrecy. There is nothing wrong with a friendship with someone from the opposite sex if its existence is known by the other partner. If a friendship is kept secret, there is more than friendship. My WW maintained a "friendship" with an ex from HS that was never revealed to me. In fact the "friendship" was hidden from all her friends and family. The communications occurred via phone and email, in his case exclusively through work. Neither BS knew of the communication. Imagine decades of communications known exclusively by the two of them. My wife said it was never going to be physical nor were they going to run off together. Then why the secrecy and why his secrecy from his wife? She was afraid I would make her stop the communication or I would be mad whenever the communications occurred so she hid the communications.

Up until DDay, I was a very secure person with a strong self image and was not the jealous type. She maintained friendships with men from HS who obviously had crushes on her in the past and I did nothing to impede their interactions. Sometimes I teased her about them and we laughed. However, not the secret exBF from HS. Who knows, if she had introduced us, maybe we would have become friends and the four of us could have gone out to dinner occasionally. The fact is that relationship was kept secret.

People can have deep emotional friendships with members of the opposite sex and I find nothing wrong with that as long as the spouse is given the opportunity to participate in the relationship. When the relationship is kept secret, then the foundation of the marriage, trust, is broken.

I struggle with this type of secrecy. It is inexplicable in a marriage and thus, to me, is wrong. What was it about the relationship that was so important that it had to be hidden so as not to be broken? Did they have a PA? Does it matter when the secrecy has destroyed the trust. Thank you for reading.

[This message edited by WantaFuture at 6:47 PM, December 20th (Friday)]

People can have deep emotional friendships with members of the opposite sex and I find nothing wrong with that as long as the spouse is given the opportunity to participate in the relationship. When the relationship is kept secret, then the foundation of the marriage, trust, is broken.

This makes perfect sense to me. I can't really understand why people would keep these types of relationships secret, unless they know their spouse would disapprove of such a close friendship.

I had a very dear male friend. When he started dating, we invited his girlfriend to all our group activities (there were four of us, all friends from college, me and three guys and various partners at different times) but she never took us up on it. When they got married about ten years ago, she invited us all to the wedding and then insisted he sever contact with me because it was inappropriate for us to still be friends when he was a married man :P I thought it was beyond ridiculous because there had never been anything romantic between us, and we had been friends for twelve years. There was an emotionally intimate friendship in which very little was off limits in terms of discussion, but that's all.

I suppose I can understand not wanting to lose a friend if that's how your spouse feels, but I can't see having a really close connection if you always have to keep it a secret. And lies just eat away at the foundation of any relationship.

I'll never forgive my friend for not standing up for our friendship, though. I guess I wasn't as important to him and he was to me.

[This message edited by PSTI at 7:32 PM, December 20th (Friday)]

I believe friendships between the opposite sex are possible - the problem arises when they start sharing information they should be sharing with their spouses.

When my H was giving me details of the A he admitted to taking her to lunch several times just to talk (this was before it became sexual). He told her he was unhappy - was thinking about leaving me - basically they talked about MY life - but nobody told me. I felt very betrayed and hurt that he could tell her things that he should have been telling me. I believe if he had told me what he was feeling the A would never had happened. Maybe we would have tried counseling - maybe ended up divorced - but those options were denied me and I had no choice in the matter.

There is more to marriage than physical intimacy - there is also emotional intimacy. A breach of either is an affair and equally devastating to the BS.

I believe friendships between the opposite sex are possible - the problem arises when they start sharing information they should be sharing with their spouses.

So where would you personally draw the line? While I don't think venting about your spouse to others is a good thing to do, I can understand if someone was genuinely conflicted about a major life decision like a divorce, that they might seek perspective from another friend. However, I wouldn't choose someone who had a vested interest in the outcome, for example!

But what makes you decide where that line is for emotional intimacy that should be within the marriage only? Because to me, I think very little is private for within the marriage only. I feel that this is something that should be actively negotiated as to what each spouse feels comfortable having shared and what is kept private since we all have different comfort levels. I am not sure what my spouse could share with a friend that I feel should be exclusively reserved for me, except for matters like finances and other major life decisions.

I think it can be blatant or it can be subtle, a feeling. I think it can just run you the wrong way and not be something you anticipate. Like when I had a friend put her hand on my husband’s arm and squeeze in greeting. She was warm, no threat, but it bothered me and it isn’t some thing I wvwe thought beforehand. My husband has a close female friend but I wouldn’t want him telling her things he doesn’t tell me. She is very respectful and I like her, but because she maintains some emotional distance.

Also, fantasizing, crushing on the other person and indulging in it, having a sexual tension, sharing things you don’t share W your spouse...not putting your spouse first above others is a big one. I think if we’re emotionally intimate with too many people it cheapens things (at least for me) and I feel like it is just bad boundaries.

For me it was basically flirting. I didn’t share that much with t the OM but I also did not then share things said w him with my husband. So that wall in the relationship w my husband and window w an interloper I was sexually attracted to was a problem.

I think it’s like that phrase “you know it when you see it” or feel it, and it isn’t something you will necessarily know beforehand is a problem until you or your spouse starts to feel like someone else has more of a “hold” over you. I wouldn’t want anyone else to be closer to my spouse than me, outside 1 or 2 close friends or family. And likewise. I am also private and like to keep things in the family, so to speak. Outside of blabbing my problems anonymously on the internet!

[This message edited by Justsomelady at 7:54 PM, December 20th (Friday)]

You said it - major life decisions. He was talking to her about leaving me - something he never mentioned to me - yet that would have a huge impact on me. They talked about building a life together - again - no one bothered to tell me.

I tend to be a very private person - so my idea of emotional intimacy may be a little stricter than most - I just don't believe in telling others every freaking detail of my life. For me emotional intimacy is not discussing issues in our marriage that effect my husband without him being the first to know what the issues are and how they may effect him.

He can vent to a friend all he wants - I know it can be very therapeutic - but I better know about it first and have some say in how the outcome effects me.

A cyber affair, maybe? It doesn't sound like there has to be emotions involved after all.

I think cyber affair is really the correct classification for most of what my WH did, and probably a lot of what people are calling an EA, but would say the first one at least was very emotional, with plans to get married, expressions of love, neglecting me, interacting all day every day, etc. If people don’t want to call that an affair (DF) because there was no sex, ok (i don’t agree), but it’s still a huge betrayal and hurts like hell. It goes way beyond being simply inappropriate.

I would say that at the heart of it, we're talking about pair-bonding. Certainly, biochemical agents like oxytocin are in play during sex, but in emotional terms, a mate is more than that. When one is pair-bonded, that mate is your most trusted and intimate companion, your confidante, your truest friend, and no other is put before you in their esteem. An EA is essentially your mate choosing to feed someone else from your plate. S/he takes what was promised as yours, and gives it to someone else.

I think people in non-monogamous relationships end up missing that kind of paired intimacy because for them, intimacy is shared among others as if monogamy had no inherent value. But monogamy is not some kind of life sentence. It's a gift. It's a pairing which is incomparable to any other relationship, where half makes whole, and there's no one else on Earth who could take your place for this one and only person. Having experienced that, why would I ever settle for something less? That's what all the pain is about. That's why we're traumatized when we lose our mate, even if we end up recovering the bond, we're scarred to our very bones by its loss.

About 6 years ago my WH became reasonably close to a woman as they shared interests. He works in a woman dominated career and has had woman friends but my gut felt different about this one, the way he talked and when I met her. I asked him if there was anything more and he admited that she liked him but he wasn't attracted to her. I said I was uncomfortable with this friendship and thought that they had drifted apart. Then when DD2 hit the fan with his secret email and information about the infidelity, I also found alot of emails that he had been secretly writing to this woman for years and secretly meeting occassionally. It was the secrecy that blew me away and why I define it as a EA. I have friends and workmates and there are boundaries for me - gay or straight or other. I would never continue a close secret friendship with one if my partner was truely unhappy with it because they didn't feel like it was a safe one and I knew deep down it wasnt either. But this was also combined with lots of other lies and huge amounts of pa and emotionless sex with sex workers so that has also probably clouded my judgement.

I can't really understand why people would keep these types of relationships secret,

That's the question, right? It could be that they know their spouse won't like it because they are insecure or jealous or possessive. I think it's more likely they keep it a secret because they want it to be more than just a friendship. They know on some level they are doing something wrong.

I am not a jealous person. I never cared about my fch's friends. He had a female colleague he became friends with right before they deployed. She was his deployment partner. I didn't mind at all. They could've been screwing around. I wasn't concerned about it.

Even after his A, I wouldn't automatically be upset about a female friend of his. It would depend on the dynamic. Do I know her? Was I being excluded? Is he choosing to be with her instead of me and our boys?

I left out the part of my fch's EA starting with the MOW complaining about her H. That opened the door for my fch to complain about me. He told her things he wasn't telling me. He should've been talking to me about them. If he didn't think he was doing anything wrong, he would've told me about her. If they were nothing more than good friends, he would've introduced me to her. He was having issues. I gave him many opportunities to talk to safe people about them. He wouldn't. What made him choose to talk to her? There was something else there from the beginning, whether he wants to admit it or not.

I think there's a distinction between an EA, sexting/sharing suggestive or pornographic photos/video sex (or whatever it's called), and a PA. You can have each one separately or combined in different ways. A friendship becomes an EA when it becomes romantic in nature. I do believe that an EA is just a stepping stone to a PA that was caught too early.

I, naturally, talk to girlfriends about my relationship and sex problems. I don't talk to my guy friends. I've never consciously thought about it. I just don't do it.

I think people in non-monogamous relationships end up missing that kind of paired intimacy because for them, intimacy is shared among others as if monogamy had no inherent value. But monogamy is not some kind of life sentence. It's a gift. It's a pairing which is incomparable to any other relationship, where half makes whole, and there's no one else on Earth who could take your place for this one and only person. Having experienced that, why would I ever settle for something less? That's what all the pain is about. That's why we're traumatized when we lose our mate, even if we end up recovering the bond, we're scarred to our very bones by its loss.

ChamomileTea, I hear what you're saying, and would be open to discussing this further but perhaps on a new thread so this one doesn't go totally off the rails.

My philosophy on that though is that in specifically polyamory as nonmonogamy, where you have love and romance in multiple relationships, that you get to experience MULTIPLE pair bondings at the same time. No person is ever interchangeable at any point. I get to experience that deeply connected love and attachment with more than one person.

There is no one on Earth who could replace my husband. I am not at that emotional level yet with my boyfriend after only 18 months, but depending on the future, this could become a lifetime relationship as well. But certainly one thing that I have learned is that everyone we connect with emotionally is irreplaceable. People don't substitute for one another. If I am desiring to connect with my husband, a date with my boyfriend doesn't change that longing and vice versa.

I have no trouble whatsoever bonding deeply and intimately. My husband and I are building our lives together and we are partners in every way. I just also get to experience love in other places, and I've never had my heart as full as it has been these past years when I have two people in love with me, and with me in love with them both. I can't even begin to explain how wonderful that can be- it's like all the love in my heart gets magnified.

There is nothing wrong with wanting and being monogamous. But choosing not to be doesn't make nonmonogamous relationships less bonded or entwined. Some people choose to make them so, but then again some mono people choose that as well. I believe that pair bonding is a choice like any other relationship choice, and relationship shape doesn't affect that unless you allow it to.

That's the question, right? It could be that they know their spouse won't like it because they are insecure or jealous or possessive. I think it's more likely they keep it a secret because they want it to be more than just a friendship. They know on some level they are doing something wrong.

I am not a jealous person. I never cared about my fch's friends. He had a female colleague he became friends with right before they deployed. She was his deployment partner. I didn't mind at all. They could've been screwing around. I wasn't concerned about it.

Even after his A, I wouldn't automatically be upset about a female friend of his. It would depend on the dynamic. Do I know her? Was I being excluded? Is he choosing to be with her instead of me and our boys?

I left out the part of my fch's EA starting with the MOW complaining about her H. That opened the door for my fch to complain about me. He told her things he wasn't telling me. He should've been talking to me about them. If he didn't think he was doing anything wrong, he would've told me about her. If they were nothing more than good friends, he would've introduced me to her. He was having issues. I gave him many opportunities to talk to safe people about them. He wouldn't. What made him choose to talk to her? There was something else there from the beginning, whether he wants to admit it or not.

I think there's a distinction between an EA, sexting/sharing suggestive or pornographic photos/video sex (or whatever it's called), and a PA. You can have each one separately or combined in different ways. A friendship becomes an EA when it becomes romantic in nature. I do believe that an EA is just a stepping stone to a PA that was caught too early.

I, naturally, talk to girlfriends about my relationship and sex problems. I don't talk to my guy friends. I've never consciously thought about it. I just don't do it.

coco, I think this makes a lot of sense. I do talk to my guy friends about relationship and/or sex stuff, but it's not really any different than when I talk to my girl friends. There is no romance/longing there.

I think that complaining about one's spouse is a totally different ballgame, and I think that aside from a rare vent it's an incredibly toxic thing to do even with just purely platonic friends. Those people will have their view of your spouse changed so it hurts their relationship with your partner, too.

I wonder if you're right and the secrecy is part of the desire to do something that is out of bounds, even if the contact isn't.

So if that's the case- is it the intention more than the actual activities that differentiate an EA from an intimate friendship?