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Reconciliation :
Faith vs an Affair

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Pippin ( member #66219) posted at 6:10 PM on Tuesday, January 14th, 2020

Niceguy25, I thought of you when I read this the other day

2 Timothy 3

(long list of different varieties of bad people). . . Avoid such men as these. For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down by sins, led on by various impulses, always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

That's your story in a nutshell. OK, she was manipulated, there have been guys doing that for millennia. It's good to be able to recognize and avoid those men. But vastly more important is to not be a weak woman weighed down by sins and led on by various impulses. And the last sentence is the cradle Catholic part (although it could be any denomination obv) - fluent in Catholic but entirely missing the point.

Does it help you to know that you are not alone in your story? That it has (unfortunately) been happening for ages? You are not crazy. She may not fall prey to another guy who enters into households and captivates weak women but she's still a weak woman weighed down by sins, which is leading to various problems for her and for you and for your relationship. You can live with that or divorce her, I think that's abundantly clear if you are looking for biblical guidance. You can't make her truly repent. She has to want to do that. If the affair didn't motivate her it's hard to imagine what will.

*****

There are a variety of translations and they are interesting. That was NASB. There's also -

MSG- people who smooth-talk themselves into the homes of unstable and needy women and take advantage of them; women who, depressed by their sinfulness, take up with every new religious fad that calls itself "truth."

ASV: For of these are they that creep into houses, and take captive silly women laden with sins, led away by diverse lusts, ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I can't remember which translation said something about men who "worm their way into other people's homes" but that was quite a visual.

(Note: I think this follows the no religious debate rule because it's not debating, and I think the topic and title invited this kind of response.)

Him: Shadowfax1

Reconciled for 6 years

Dona nobis pacem

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cocoplus5nuts ( member #45796) posted at 2:06 PM on Wednesday, January 15th, 2020

My STBXH continues to pray to God (as per our common friend) that God will get him out of karma.

I'm not religious, but I pretty sure that's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.

Me(BW): 1970
WH(caveman): 1970
Married June, 2000
DDay#1 June 8, 2014 EA
DDay#2 12/05/14 confessed to sex before polygraph
Status: just living my life

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LoveTKO ( member #54298) posted at 2:14 PM on Wednesday, January 15th, 2020

My CH attended church with his married catholic AP. Yup she also did and does figure she will be forgiven. Just another reason I am not religious. Morality is my religion.

Like Thanksgiving2016 my STBXWH met his MOW in church. They sang about Jesus and then went in the back of her truck to screw. She has 4 children that my sons know. This went on for a year. They actually had sex in the house when the OBS and children were home (when I asked how, he said "big house").

My only thought is that there are a lot of hypocrites out there. I always knew he wasn't "religious" as he said, it was all a front common with a lot of narcissists to appear to be a "good guy".

Me: BW
Him: FWH
LTA one year with local MOW
Dday: 12/4/15
Done - separated

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Zugzwang ( member #39069) posted at 9:20 PM on Wednesday, January 15th, 2020

From my understanding and research on Catholics, it is more than just forgiveness. Which really held true for many of the Christian branches. It is about asking for forgiveness and repenting too. So, if you are Christian and believe in God-then God would really know in your heart if you truly were repentitive or remorseful and if you really were sorry. Chances are with a reply of "I was crazy." She really isn't owning it, so how could she really be repenting? I don't know how anyone that truly believed there is a God would risk it and cheat to begin with. Damning the soul. But, hey many like to just think it is all about asking forgiveness and skipping exactly what that entails according to the Bible.

As far as faith goes. I think my lack of faith and not believing in some afterlife or God judging me, made it easier for me to cheat because hey---you live only once and should be happy. It just added to my entitlement.

[This message edited by Zugzwang at 3:25 PM, January 15th (Wednesday)]

"Nothing in this world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty." Teddy Roosevelt
D-day 9-4-12 Me;WS



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Zugzwang ( member #39069) posted at 9:33 PM on Wednesday, January 15th, 2020

Timothy 2 might work. So does Proverb 7 about loose women.

My son, keep my words;

store up my commands within you.

2

Keep my commands and live,

and my instruction like the pupil of your eye.

3

Bind them on your fingers;

write them on the tablet of your heart.

4

Say to wisdom, “You are my sister”;

call understanding “friend,”

5

so she might guard you against the mysterious woman,

from the foreign woman who flatters you.

6

When from the window of my house,

from behind the screen, I gazed down,

7

I looked among the naive young men

and noticed among the youth, one who had no sense.

8

He was crossing the street at her corner

and walked down the path to her house

9

in the early evening,

at the onset of night and darkness.

10

All of a sudden a woman approaches him,

dressed like a prostitute and with a cunning mind.

11

She is noisy and defiant;

her feet don’t stay long in her own house.

12

She has one foot in the street, one foot in the public square.

She lies in wait at every corner.

13

She grabs him and kisses him.

Her face is brazen as she speaks to him:

14

“I’ve made a sacrifice of well-being;

today I fulfilled my solemn promises.

15

So I’ve come out to meet you,

seeking you, and I have found you.

16

I’ve spread my bed with luxurious covers,

with colored linens from Egypt.

17

I’ve sprinkled my bed with myrrh,

aloes, and cinnamon.

18

Come, let’s drink deep of love until morning;

let’s savor our lovemaking.

19

For my husband isn’t home;

he’s gone far away.

20

He took a pouch of money with him;

he won’t come home till full moon.”

21

She seduces him with all her talk.

She entices him with her flattery.

22

He goes headlong after her,

like an ox to the slaughter,

like a deer leaping into a trap,[a]

23

until an arrow pierces his liver,

like a bird hurrying to the snare,

not aware that it will cost him his life.

24

Now children, listen to me,

and pay attention to my speech.

25

Don’t turn your heart to her ways;

don’t wander down her paths.

26

She has caused many corpses to fall;

she has killed many people.

27

Her house is a path to the grave,[b]

going down to the chambers of death.

Affairs run both ways. IMO being manipulated by either is complete bullshit and lacking in ownership. As long as she keeps to the story that she was manipulated...she doesn't own it. Perhaps she should check out Proverbs 7. If the AP is married I am willing to bet the OBS sees her as the above woman that manipulated her husband.

"Nothing in this world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty." Teddy Roosevelt
D-day 9-4-12 Me;WS



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Thumos ( member #69668) posted at 10:01 PM on Wednesday, January 15th, 2020

“she was being manipulated”

I got handed this line too. I suspect a lot of us did. I sort of accepted it at first, in the initial weeks after D-Day. I stopped accepting it pretty quickly.

"True character is revealed in the choices a human being makes under pressure. The greater the pressure, the deeper the revelation, the truer the choice to the character's essential nature."

BH: 50, WW: 49 Wed: Feb.'96 DDAY1: 12.20.16 DDAY2: 12.23.19

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Thumos ( member #69668) posted at 10:05 PM on Wednesday, January 15th, 2020

I don't think anyone has brought up my favorite Proverb (30:20) which describes perfectly the pattern of behavior from all waywards (it could easily describe wayward husbands as easily as wives).

"This is the way of an adulterous woman: She eats, wipes her mouth, and says 'I have done nothing wrong."

I'm tempted to think whoever wrote it was also slipping in a rather clever double entendre there. In any case, the pattern:

1. She (he) eats (forbidden fruit, adultery)

2. She wipes her mouth (Conceals the evidence)

3. Says "I have done nothing wrong." (lies, gaslights, minimizes, blameshifts, DARVOs)

Pretty interesting it's as accurate today as thousands of years ago.

"True character is revealed in the choices a human being makes under pressure. The greater the pressure, the deeper the revelation, the truer the choice to the character's essential nature."

BH: 50, WW: 49 Wed: Feb.'96 DDAY1: 12.20.16 DDAY2: 12.23.19

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MrCleanSlate ( member #71893) posted at 10:05 PM on Wednesday, January 15th, 2020

The one thorn in my side (note the nice catholic reference, LOL) is that too many people try to act all pious and are anything but.

I found GOD after my A, or after my DUI, or after I ____*fill in the wrong or sin*.

The few truly religious people I have known have really and truly abided by a set of hard ethics and owned their actions. There was no grey area for them.

I can't say I am one of those. And of all the people I know the last one I could say that about passed away a couple of years ago.

What I can say, is that way too many of us look to religion, or science, for EXCUSES for our bad choices.

WH 53,my BW is 52. 1 year PA, D-Day Oct 2015. Admitted all, but there is no 'clean slate'. In R and working it everyday"
To build may have to be the slow and laborious task of years. To destroy can be the thoughtless act of a single day

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Thumos ( member #69668) posted at 10:09 PM on Wednesday, January 15th, 2020

And Proverbs 25:24

"Better to live on a corner of the roof than share a house with a quarrelsome wife."

"True character is revealed in the choices a human being makes under pressure. The greater the pressure, the deeper the revelation, the truer the choice to the character's essential nature."

BH: 50, WW: 49 Wed: Feb.'96 DDAY1: 12.20.16 DDAY2: 12.23.19

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Thumos ( member #69668) posted at 10:12 PM on Wednesday, January 15th, 2020

It is about asking for forgiveness and repenting too.

The original Koine Greek word for "repentance" was "metanoia" -- which has a more subtle meaning akin to "turning of the mind" a conversion, and a substantive change in one's life.

So those Christians who like to point to whether someone has verbally said "I'm sorry" and said a prayer should really consider that. The earliest Christians saw it differently. They needed to see a wholesale life change to consider someone truly repentant.

"True character is revealed in the choices a human being makes under pressure. The greater the pressure, the deeper the revelation, the truer the choice to the character's essential nature."

BH: 50, WW: 49 Wed: Feb.'96 DDAY1: 12.20.16 DDAY2: 12.23.19

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ShatteredSakura ( member #70885) posted at 10:29 PM on Wednesday, January 15th, 2020

I don't know how anyone that truly believed there is a God would risk it and cheat to begin with. Damning the soul. But, hey many like to just think it is all about asking forgiveness and skipping exactly what that entails according to the Bible.

Well everyone knows about the Prodigal Son right? At Easter midnight mass (in Orthodoxy at least) it's referenced among other things...Christ has risen, it is time to rejoice, you were supposed to fast for 40 days (or so) but you are welcomed to the feast even if you didn't (we literally have a midnight feast!) as all are welcomed. God receives those who came at the first hour and those at the eleventh.

It can be infuriating though if you were there at the first hour though.

2 Timothy 3

(long list of different varieties of bad people). . . Avoid such men as these. For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down by sins, led on by various impulses, always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

That's an interesting quote Pippin, right on the nose of how I view AP and WW. I see him as definitely a type of man who has no problem "worming his way in", because that's exactly what he did. And WW can be characterized as a weak woman. She doesn't have strong impulse control and a sense of right vs wrong IMO. And she's chronically depressed about things in her life, about herself, her mother, her decisions, i.e. weighed down.

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Zugzwang ( member #39069) posted at 12:50 PM on Thursday, January 16th, 2020

Yeah, but those at the eleventh hour have to really mean it. Do you think that those that ask at that hour do or are they scrambling and just saying the words? That is the difference. Some may, I don't doubt that some learn and see. Every WW here doesn't learn until they lose something. Though I bet for the majority it is done out of fear not making it a truly repenting act of asking forgiveness. It is done out of a place of selfishness and if there is a God and he is all knowing...he will know the difference.

As far as who is manipulating who or worming their way in. I would think one has to really look at who the AP is and where the affair started too. Mine at work. Both my APs were extremely flirtatious. I bet for many husbands, they really don't know just how their wives act at work behind their backs.

"Nothing in this world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty." Teddy Roosevelt
D-day 9-4-12 Me;WS



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ShatteredSakura ( member #70885) posted at 7:11 PM on Thursday, January 16th, 2020

Yeah, but those at the eleventh hour have to really mean it. Do you think that those that ask at that hour do or are they scrambling and just saying the words? That is the difference. Some may, I don't doubt that some learn and see. Every WW here doesn't learn until they lose something. Though I bet for the majority it is done out of fear not making it a truly repenting act of asking forgiveness. It is done out of a place of selfishness and if there is a God and he is all knowing...he will know the difference.

Many don't, which is why I mentioned it in the first place. Everyone knows the prodigal son story, but saying the words and showin up is only part of the battle. I'm doubtful many are sincere though. But on one hand, those that are..."better late than never"...and those who arent...well that's between them and god ultimately. It may be infuriating for us, but it isn't up to us.

[This message edited by ShatteredSakura at 1:12 PM, January 16th (Thursday)]

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Zugzwang ( member #39069) posted at 10:33 PM on Thursday, January 16th, 2020

Yes, I think it takes time before they become sincere. Again...we have to take into accounts version of the story of the prodigal son. Things lost in translation. Many believe that the whole let those without sin cast first stone means any sin. Many scholars have proven that lost in translation and one word actually negates that and it was meant that those that actually committed that particular sin should not judge. All on perspective and at the mercy of fallen human beings. Hence, why I have no stock or faith in any of it. Though I have studied. One of my favorite books is A History Of God by Karen Armstrong.

Though it makes an excellent point for those with Christian WS. That is just one more thing for the WS to face and work through.

If I was betrayed, by a Christian woman...I wouldn't let any of those excuses fly. Part of changing and owning would be healing their soul and being strong in the eyes of their Lord. I would tell them to focus more on Grace, Mercy, and forgiveness and own up to the sin.

Although not Christian my wife(my wife very much is Christian) and I have found a ton of wisdom in a book by Jerry Sittser A Grace Disguised.

If you are Christian, I think this book about healing would be extremely beneficial.

"Nothing in this world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty." Teddy Roosevelt
D-day 9-4-12 Me;WS



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Flatlined ( member #27637) posted at 12:28 AM on Friday, January 17th, 2020

Faith is a very tricky issue for me since i found out. I am a Pastor - have been since we got married. She has been apart of the church since day one ( and before in her own church). She sat through countless sermons, bibles studies etc all while she was carrying on her affairs. Even at times talking about how could other do what they are doing to there families.

This has led a very real crisis of faith for me. I question where was God? I question her faith and beliefs and wonder was it only words? She talks about free will and sin as well as being forgiven. I get that - but the walk of forgiveness is a hard road for me to walk for the first time in my life.

I struggle some days with truly forgiving her and even with forgiving God.

Revic, your post really hit me. My H was a deacon in our small church and met his two A partners there. When DD happened both these women were attending a Bible study class that I was leading. It was the hardest thing I have ever endured in my entire life, (including the suicide death of our 14 yo son two years earlier). I just couldn't understand or even process it.

Now I recognize that there are a lot of *false converts* in the church. My H has been in church his whole life. The church (place of true worship) just wasn't in him. It was also a matter of idolatry. The one way I know for sure I failed my H was that he fully expected me to be his "Everything." I am terrible at perfection and I am a terrible god. When I was no longer meeting that expectation AND a so called friend of mine was there to "amen" his disappointment in me, it became the perfect storm.

The Bible says adultery comes out of the heart. (Matthew 15:19) It is not an externally motivated occurrence. Yes, there are always external factors but the root cause is a sickness of the heart which I believe comes from the seed of idolatry. In order for a person of faith to betray a spouse, they must first betray God. I remember pouring over my Bible searching for help for my pain and landing in 1Samuel. The Israelites were demanding a king and Samuel felt like he had failed the people. God told Samuel that the people had not rejected him, but they had rejected God. Ultimately Waywards of faith aren't rejecting their spouse, they are (first) rejecting God.

This is really the relational cancer of the culture. When we reject the Originator of Love (God), we will automatically replace Him with some other object of our affections. People (with the right understanding, tools and commitment) can make good spouses. But people, as I already mentioned, make awful gods.(I think that also explains why there's so much serial partnering & serial cheating...we are looking for love in all the wrong places.)

I heard a female Christian author share the story of how she was ready to walk out on her 7 year marriage. (She didn't come out and say she was cheating but I got the sense that something might have been amiss.) She said she was completely unsatisfied with her H and her marriage and decided she had to tell him. After she told him, he said to her, "Wife, every man in the state could line up at the front door for you and you would still be unhappy. Until you get right with God you will always be wanting." His response snapped her out of her fog.

The Bible begins and ends with a marriage. Marriage is meant to give us a picture of the unbroken love of God (Jesus) and the Church. In the Old Testament God often referred to Israel as His wayward, adulterous wife. Shoot, there's a whole book (Hosea) portraying how God had to deal with the infidelity of His people. God has been there! He knows the heartache of betrayal. Somehow it gave me a lot of comfort to know God had experienced even this (Isaiah 53:3).

When I was crying over my husband in those early day and weeks after DD, it was as if God said to me, "Flatlined, I know you want your H back, and I also want your marriage to be mended, but I need you to know that I am the Only One you can't live without!" Whew, God didn't want me making my H my god either! That's really too much weight to put on any human being--besides the whole idolatry thing.

I pray all of those dealing with a faith element to their betrayal tragedy will find acceptance, peace, and eventually joy. After our son died, it was many weeks before we were able to sit together at the table for a meal. Our family of 6 had become a family of 5 and we just could not bear the empty chair. During a desperate prayer time I heard God say in my heart, "I will sit there if you'll let Me."

There will probably always be (unanswered) questions but in the end I believe that more than answers, God just wants to give us Himself. He wants us to know He is with us no matter what. People will certainly fail us (and we will fail others) but He is the (only) Unfailing One. He's the mender of broken hearts.

[If you want to hear an absolutely amazing infidelity survival story go to Focus on the Family's broadcast online, I think Tuesday & Wednesday this week (1-14 &15-2020) and look up Lisa Terkeryst.]

[This message edited by Flatlined at 11:15 AM, January 17th (Friday)]

Me BW Him FWH [Dr.NewMan]Married 31 y/4 children DDay #1 7/20/09 DDay #2 7/28/09 (2 As,both with *PSEUDO*friends)

ReconciledTen years out, surviving & thriving.

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Zugzwang ( member #39069) posted at 11:47 PM on Saturday, January 18th, 2020

they must first betray God.

That is if they even truly believed in God to begin with. Many say they do and don't, just following what they know they are supposed to be doing. Waywards are very good at manipulating and doing what they know they are supposed to be doing but what really isn't in their heart to begin with. Especially if they come from a family that is very Christian. Easy to betray something you never believed in to begin with.

"Nothing in this world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty." Teddy Roosevelt
D-day 9-4-12 Me;WS



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cocoplus5nuts ( member #45796) posted at 1:54 AM on Sunday, January 19th, 2020

Many say they do and don't, just following what they know they are supposed to be doing. Waywards are very good at manipulating and doing what they know they are supposed to be doing but what really isn't in their heart to begin with.

I think this is my H. He says he's catholic because his family is catholic. He grew up going to the catholic church.

After reading this thread I asked him if he had confessed to a priest and asked for forgiveness. He didn't answer.

Me(BW): 1970
WH(caveman): 1970
Married June, 2000
DDay#1 June 8, 2014 EA
DDay#2 12/05/14 confessed to sex before polygraph
Status: just living my life

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thatbpguy ( member #58540) posted at 4:44 AM on Sunday, January 19th, 2020

If I was betrayed, by a Christian woman...I wouldn't let any of those excuses fly. Part of changing and owning would be healing their soul and being strong in the eyes of their Lord. I would tell them to focus more on Grace, Mercy, and forgiveness and own up to the sin.

My wife was deeply pious. She read her Bible and prayed 2 or 3 hours every day. Active in church. Deeply moral. Didn't stop her from running off with another man who had money.

She asked for forgiveness and I told her I had none. She needed true forgiveness from God and to forgive herself. The latter she never could do. So she continued on in her ways.

ME: BH Her: WW DDay 1, R; DDay 2, R; DDay 3, I left; Divorced Remarried to a wonderful woman

"There are far, far better things ahead than any we leave behind." C.S. Lewis

As a dog returns to his vomit, so a fool repeats his folly...

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Zugzwang ( member #39069) posted at 3:32 PM on Monday, January 20th, 2020

Well if she didn't forgive herself, then she really isn't very Christian or believes in God. If she believed she would have all her trust in God and know that he forgave her. By not forgiving herself, she is basically saying he doesn't exist because she has no faith in him. She obviously doesn't. If she ran off with her AP. Then, she was never truly pious or moral. Staying with the AP is not repenting. Wouldn't that be eternal damnation anyway? You have to stop the behavior to repent.

"Nothing in this world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty." Teddy Roosevelt
D-day 9-4-12 Me;WS



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Zugzwang ( member #39069) posted at 3:38 PM on Monday, January 20th, 2020

I am not surprised by any of this. Cherry picking is a trait that all waywards have in their everyday lives in order to live their two lives. It stands to reason, that those that claim to be Christian would do it in their religious lives as well. Though if they really believed in God, the eternal damnation seems a huge consequence to risk if they don't take the steps afterward to absolve themselves.

"Nothing in this world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty." Teddy Roosevelt
D-day 9-4-12 Me;WS



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