SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Affairs are transactional. You are giving with the expectation to receive.

Marriage should not be transactional. You give because you simply love someone, and want them to feel that unconditional love.

So, how do you all reconcile the R process that is COMPLETELY transactional? We can't be in R unless the WS is meeting certain criteria, and true reconciliation is a new marriage that is built on expectations, which completely goes against the idea of a giving relationship. In a healthy, loving relationship, there are no expectations for reciprocity.

Are all WS inherently transactional?

I ask because I'm having a really hard time trying to manage my expectations. I feel like I'm going crazy!

I am following this thread for sure because I have exactly the same question and issue. I don't have a good answer for you, wish I did, and hope that someone will be along to help us both at some point. I'm just not sure that help exists, as you point out, and I feel myself, R is a process of drawing lines, setting expectations and any WS with even a lukewarm IQ realizes it's done with the unsaid threat of "And if you don't, I will leave you".

The best answer is for a WS to find a site like this themselves and "just do it" without forcing the BS to make it an issue/demand it/require it/etc. That rarely happens, sadly.

Rather than framing them as expectations, maybe try looking at them as boundaries. Not "I expect you to act this way or that way" but instead "You can act however you like, but I will not tolerate x treatment."

I don't think having 'expectations' is inherently wrong or necessarily makes a relationship transactional. IMHO I think the issue comes in when someone is trying to control another person with said expectations. I do expect that my friends treat me with respect and be honest with me. Can I control whether they do? No. But if they don't, I can choose to alter or end that friendship.

Does that make sense?

Editing to clarify a little - with my friends I do expect certain treatment. But I in turn, have a duty to them to be clear in what my expectations are. I think that's the other part of the issue with 'expectations' generally - they aren't clearly laid out and communicated so everyone knows where those boundary lines are.

[This message edited by EllieKMAS at 12:33 PM, February 26th (Wednesday)]

In a healthy, loving relationship, there are no expectations for reciprocity.

I disagree with that. I would flip it around where a healthy, loving relationship cannot exist without reciprocity.

What happens when your partner, family, or friends always take and never give? Do you keep on giving? After a while that's just being taken advantage of.

For a long time I kept giving to show WS my love and I received little in reciprocation. I grew to feel used. Her ideal relationship was her partner to do things for her like a parent would. Me just doing stuff to show love became expected; it didn't inspire her to do things to show love to me. And when I spoke up and asked for reciprocation, it became a source of friction because I was asking her to do things she "was not used to" (her words in MC). I'm talking about every day things like chores, let alone other things like romance and gifts.

[This message edited by ShatteredSakura at 12:33 PM, February 26th (Wednesday)]

a healthy, loving relationship cannot exist without reciprocity.

Could not agree more with this. I am a definite giver. I love giving - presents, time, a shoulder to cry on, a giggle - whatever. That's just part of who I am, like green eyes and liking the word fuck.

But believe me in my M, it got to a point where I resented the hell out of my xdouche because I gaaaaaaaaaave and never got so much as a thank you, much less any sort of reciprocity. Did I give with the express purpose of getting something back? No I did not. But I reached a point where that scale tipped into "My giving nature is being taken advantage of". And when there were no healthy boundaries and expectations in place, changing that dynamic was very difficult (impossible as it turned out in my case).

I feel that all relationships are negotiable and transactional. We just don't see it because of how we dress it up. We like to think that we stay with our spouses because we love them, but fundamentally it's for reasons like "they don't abuse us and they make us feel good about ourselves and secure in our futures and we don't want to break up the family". Of course, if your default disposition is to see relationships like this, you're a sociopath. It's this very window dressing on top of uncomfortable realities that makes us healthy individuals. Just saying, it's good to be mindful of our very own selfish bullshit that lies underneath our years-in-the-making adaptation facades.

All that said, you shouldn't feel bad about expecting things from your partner. You expect them not to cheat. You expect them to communicate. These are healthy expectations. And I think living by the golden rule is paramount, so I would hold myself to the same standard. Expectations I put on myself first, then transfer to others. Perfectly reasonable.

Of course, if your default disposition is to see relationships like this, you're a sociopath.

Great, something new to add to my IC list.

I'm not sure though, is that sociopathy or just seeing things for what they are?

I want to clarify that my point

In a healthy, loving relationship, there are no expectations for reciprocity.

is meant to mean we GIVE or DO with no expectations for reciprocity. I give to my husband because I want to, because I want him to know I love him. Not because I expect a gift in return, a compliment in return, or a chore done in return. I do it because I want to. Of course I have expectations that he will do things for me in our relationship. I wouldn't be here if I wasn't getting anything out of it.

The idea that we give to get, in every little day-to-day action makes a relationship or lover transactional.

You've definitely got a point. I should amend that statement to say "if it's your disposition *and you use it to take advantage of or hurt people* you're a sociopath". On it's own, it's more just a sign of either a cynic or a realist, depending on what side of the fence the person making that judgment falls on. I'm the same though, sometimes I find it hard to wrap myself in the blanket of "this is some okay thing and not the harsh reality that on some level I know it to be".

Ohhh I really like some of the answers you are getting. There is some good stuff there.

For me, when I read it, I thought well, the marriage is broken. It's not healthy. You can't have a healthy marriage with someone who is so obviously broken. So, the expectation has to be "Fix your shit, and maybe I will give you another chance. We will see." That was exactly what my H said to me early into it.

People often make the mistake of working too much on the marriage too soon. The reality of it is, you just discovered your spouse is not who you thought they were. They have to answer to that and be accountable.

I think the problem then becomes about motivation for the WS. They have to be motivated on their own to figure out what is broken and to fix it. In the meantime, the spouse really still needs reassurance that something is happening and the only way to gauge that is "What is the WS doing to show you". If the answer to that is nothing, then the WS is just not self motivated.

Change is a very selfish and personal thing. The person has to feel that they are in enough pain that it's worth going through other pain/discomfort to not stay where they are. We don't really change for other people, not fully. Yes, part of my change was I wanted my marriage. That is true. But in another way that created a feeling of being scrambled, and needing to fix it very quickly. He was getting ready to walk. So, that was a short term motivation and it did get me on a path, but long term motivation is you not only have to like the results you have to desire them.

I think there is no way a BS can be anything but the way you are describing in the beginning. You don't owe the WS jack. The fact you are still there is the gift. When you really go to work on the marriage, then that means your WS has gotten themselves into a place where you believe they do have remorse, you see they are consistent and trying...then it has to come down to releasing some of the transactional nature and building something healthy. But, you can't be expected to build something healthy with a WS who just burnt your life to the ground.

As I have worked on myself I have seen the impact that has on my relationship and marriage. Eventually, my husband joined me on that path. But, it's up to the WS to do the work on themselves, and for them to start the reconnection process. You just have to believe you are worth that.

I am not a BS but those are my two cents.

Unconditional love is really only for the parent/child relationship.

I don't mind that I have standards for the person I'm sharing my life with (ie, criteria). I actually think it means I love myself a whole lot, and that I'm not willing to accept whatever behavior my DH is willing to dish out.

And, actually, I find my standards help me so that I don't have to deal with cognitive dissonance any more that I have to. Which keeps me sane-I'm a black and white thinker...and I cannot cope with cognitive dissonance.

is meant to mean we GIVE or DO with no expectations for reciprocity. I give to my husband because I want to, because I want him to know I love him. Not because I expect a gift in return, a compliment in return, or a chore done in return. I do it because I want to. Of course I have expectations that he will do things for me in our relationship. I wouldn't be here if I wasn't getting anything out of it.

The idea that we give to get, in every little day-to-day action makes a relationship or lover transactional.

I'm having a hard time distinguishing how a marriage lacks a transactional element compared to any other type of relationship. If you have an expectation of a return from the other party--whether it is tangible or not--there exists a quid pro quo.

Unconditional love is really only for the parent/child relationship.

And even then...my sister is a taker. Before she moved to the other side of the country, we would hear from her only when she needed something. My mom has grappled with "unconditional love" in a way I don't have to, and even she has found that she is starting to not feel much for her own daughter after years of this sort of relationship.

My adult relationship with my parents is vastly different. I do stuff for them because I love them. They do stuff for me because they love me. We don't expect a tit-for-tat, but a kind of one forms because there is such a long history of this positive back and forth. The acts inspire future acts, not because we're keeping score but because we feel love. I don't see marriage or friendship being that much different.

Nobody owes nobody nothin'. You owe yourself. Friends don't owe! They do because the wanna do.

-Rocky Balboa

IMO I feel like the only expectation in a loving/healthy family relationship is that you expect those people to be there for you in a time of need (if able), and vice versa. Even if it's inconvenient. You might not expect that of friends, or at least most friends.

Unconditional love is really only for the parent/child relationship.

I disagree. The WS-AP relationship is unconditional love.

I know there are those here that would say that what the WS-AP have is in no way "love" or a "relationship", but I think that's just denial bullshit.

"But the AP had to have sex with the WS to get anything from the WS so that proves it was transactional." Bullshit.

Did the AP ever pay a bill? No.

Clean up puke or diarrhea? No.

Help the kids with homework, being bullied, losing a grandparent, or anything else? No.

Mow the lawn? Sort of.

Do anything at all to help the WS in ANY way? Well, yes, the AP had to have sex with the WS, so Yes.

So having sex with the WS is the price the AP has to pay for having sex with the WS, and therefore that makes it transactional?

If the only thing I had to do to have sex with someone is have sex with them, I'd call that unconditional love any day.

The WS-AP relationship is unconditional love.

IMHO that relationship only works upon the condition that the WS is willing to compromise their marriage/relationship to have doings with the AP. Unless maybe I missed something...

In my case WW got a fantasy and an escape from responsibility. She got a guy who was still in love with her after 8 years and will just do stuff for her. Before I ever came into the picture they had a rocky relationship and constantly broke up. From the little bit I know, some of it was the same theme of her expecting her partner to be a parent. Even this douchebag had his limits.

Because neither of them had responsibility and it was all just a fantasy of dates and romance, that's why it didn't stop. Being with me made her more miserable over time because she faced consequences (or at least anger) for her behavior and had someone nagging her to pull her own weight.

Now that they're together, I would make a bet the same friction will return over the day to day stuff and they won't last, again.

So IMO, in my case it was very transactional. Maybe some weird unconditional love on douchebag's part. Definitely not on WW's part. She got an escape from reality.

[This message edited by ShatteredSakura at 4:12 PM, February 26th (Wednesday)]

I didn’t read all the responses yet so this may have already been covered.

Not to throw a wrench into things but don’t we get married and take vows and then expect that our wedding vows be upheld by both parties? If that’s not the case then why bother getting married? When an infidelity occurs it’s actually breaking the vows made to the other person - you had expectations and your WS didn’t keep their end of the bargain. In my opinion, it is reciprocal.

I hope I’m explaining myself clearly - I am the WS - I broke my vows to my BH - I did what I vowed NOT to do, therefore, BH has a right to do as he sees fit - if I am asking him to stay with me and work on the marriage then I need to show him I am not going to waste his time. You have every right to set expectations and WS to live up to them. If there were no expectations in a marriage/relationship to begin with none of us would be here 😃

The WS-AP relationship is unconditional love.

On the contrary, the WS-AP relationship is very conditional. In most cases, it’s a fantasy that will be shattered in the harsh light of day.

Did the AP ever pay a bill? No.

Clean up puke or diarrhea? No.

Help the kids with homework, being bullied, losing a grandparent, or anything else? No.

Mow the lawn? Sort of.

This is exactly why it’s conditional; it’s something that can’t survive real life. Would a WS find an AP half as attractive if they were the ones cleaning up puke, arguing with them about bills, or mowing the lawn? Not likely.

The condition that we're talking about is real life. Affairs thrive only under the condition that they're not discovered.

On occasion, affair partners will go on to have a relationship have the affair is uncovered, but that’s rare. In the vast majority of cases, those relationships can’t survive the condition that every relationsip must eventually face — reality.

[This message edited by Joanna1013 at 4:15 PM, February 26th (Wednesday)]

Not sure I am following you, cheatstroke.

The adequacy of the value is irrelevant to whether or not a transaction has occurred. If I offered to sell my house that is worth $100k $1 million dollars to person A, and offered the same property to person B for $1, it does not change the fact that each act would be transactional. If person A had to clean up puke, help with chores, help kids with homework, etc. in order for person B to have sex with person A, but all person C had to do was give a wink and a smile, there is still an exchange. Moreover, unless it is a situation of nonconsensual or involuntary participation, the act of sex itself is an exchange, presumably, each person is participating in order to receive value.

[This message edited by KingRat at 5:35 PM, February 26th (Wednesday)]

You give because you simply love someone, and want them to feel that unconditional love.

Before my ex had her affair, I would have agreed in the idea of unconditional love. I guess in a way, I still do, but once she had her affair, I had to come to the realization that my love had at least one condition...don’t fuck other dudes. Turns out, that drastically changed my love for her.

Pre-affair, I assumed we agreed on this point. It wasn’t a transaction, but an agreement. Post-affair, we lost this agreement and because of that, conditions changed the way I loved her. Firm boundaries had to be put into place, not to control her behaviour, but for me to determine what I’d accept.

Boundaries are bullshit. They create a parent/child relationship as far as I’m concerned. For me personally, I wish my ex could have dug deep within and found some repentance. That she could have shifted that repentance into remorse and we could have moved on with our lives. But affairs don’t work like that. For so many, they don’t truly repent, let alone find remorse. Because of that, boundaries are important and required so a betrayer can hold themselves accountable to them self.

Maybe one day, you’d be able to rebuild something that looks like unconditional love, but that shouldn’t be the goal, just a bonus.