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Stevesn,

Ok, now I am confused. You were one of the people who gave me great advice on how to get her to fix herself so R may be possible and now you are saying divorce her?

You think D is the only option for me?

Why am I here if D is the only option?

[This message edited by achilles1101 at 1:48 PM, May 25th (Monday)]

D is never the only option. Being strong enough to continue with or without her is. You will stay stuck as you will only accept with her and you have no control over her to guarantee with.

Hi Achilles,

Stevesn posted 5/24/2020 23:56 PM

One question to ask your WW if you haven’t already:

If the AP called you and asked to see you and said he missed you and wanted to start up again, would you go? If not, Why not? What has changed? Doesn’t he still give you the feelings of being wanted you so crave?

achilles1101 posted 5/25/2020 00:10 AM

Great question, One I have kinda asked. I didn't ask specifically , but I ask what changed, She said everything changed when I talked to OBS

I am surprised that nobody has picked up on the importance of the reason why 'everything changed'. To me, there would seem to be huge significance to what element, or combination of factors, actually mattered to your wife.

Has she elaborated on why it was you contacting the OBS that changed things for her, after ignoring so many other reasons that could/should have done that?

Do you think it was an issue of power/control, where your establishing a line of communication with the OBS was totally out of your wife's control, and she feared losing control of the narrative and what you would be told?

Do you think your wife panicked about you starting to contact other people, because it might have been the start of a chain that would include her parents, her workmates, and her HR department being told? Her parents have since been told, by her, possibly to regain control of what they were (and were not) told. However, at the time you contacted the OBS, no-one had been told about the affair.

Is it possible that your wife's AP berated her about you contacting his wife, or he made threats towards you in a male chest-beating way, and that changed the dynamic between them for your wife? Might she have worried that you and the AP would end up fighting, and the whole thing would then come out?

I guess what I am getting at is whether she had some kind of change of heart, or simply worried that the situation was escalating to the point where she would start suffering consequences, as opposed to other people taking the hits. Sorry, that may sound jaded, or not very charitable, but it is a possibility.

And of course, none of the hypothetical scenarios I have suggested may be anywhere near your wife's reasoning. However, I hope they show why I think her reasoning is worth digging into as you try to evaluate whether reconciliation is possible.

Rambler,

We both know D is a possibility. I would prefer R but only under certain conditions. If those conditions aren't met, I'm out.

So yes I would like her to fix the hole in herself and be the loving wife she can be, but I will not remain in limbo indefinitely and will not settle for less than I deserve.

M1965,

I believe she didn't want to confront her own demons that she had kept at bay prior to the affair. Letting them out allowed her to have the affair and that was another failure on her part.

She talked about being successful at work but being a failure at home. Our kids were struggling in school and our daughter suffers from anxiety issues. I worked 12 hour night shifts and she worked days, so we didn't even see each other for at least half the week. My first day off was a wasted day as I tried to adjust back to a normal schedule.

Contacting OBS gave me information that she didn't give me. It forced everything into the light. I don't think he had anything to do with it. We talked the same night I talked to OBS and the truth, I believe, came out. He tried to call her the next day, but she showed me the missed calls .

Of course it could be an elaborate cover up, showing me only things that would prove she hadn't talked to him.

Much earlier in this I suggested that since I was retired and had no job to lose, I could beat his ass and spend a day in jail. She asked how that could be explained when he came back. Like I said that was much earlier in this process.

I get you. I think I am getting closer to the hows and whys. The closer I get, the more I think she has to get help for her inner demons.

Now I don't think I care.

nothing really matters.

I don't think I believe her and I don't even care.

She has turned cold and everything I wanted is gone

Hi Achilles,

I am sorry that you have hit one of the low points that are part of the rollercoaster ride.

Sometimes it is hard to predict when they will hit, but over the last few days and weeks you have been thinking about a lot of issues and details in back and forth discussions with people here. That can be mentally and emotionally exhausting, and I think you may need a rest from all of this for a few days.

Please, Achilles, be good to yourself.

Make sure you are eating and keeping yourself hydrated. See if you can focus on something else, like a hobby or reading, something unrelated to affairs that will give your mind and heart a rest.

Sometimes we can keep on bashing away at these things without realizing how low our batteries are getting. And when our batteries get low, our resistance gets low, and we have something like a collapse.

I have had a few of those during troubled times, and I am sure almost everyone here has also had them. You can feel like you have no energy. No way to fight back against a hundred foot high tsunami that looks like it is going to sweep you away, and because you are so run down, you think, "Fine. Sweep me away. What does any of it matter?"

Achilles, I have no idea what your wife did or said, or did not do or say that you needed from her, but the reason it had such a big impact is because you are more exhausted by this than you knew.

As for your wife, nobody knows how to do the 'right' things in the aftermath of infidelity.

Just as we on the betrayed side can struggle and flounder as we try to work out the best thing to do, along with dealing with the pain, the people who caused the pain and betrayal can also struggle and flounder in their attempts to do or say the 'right' thing. And sometimes they mess it up, big time.

If the process exhausts the people who betrayed us, they can get tetchy, defensive, lash out, or withdraw into a detached shell of their own. Tired people are not at their best, and if both of you are tired, then your wife's actions are going to hit you harder than they normally would.

Have a few days away to recharge your batteries, Achilles. You are going to be okay. I say that as someone who has crashed and burnt several times, and bounced back every time. You can and will do that; you just need to build up the energy to do it. And you will.

Sending strength and bro hugs across the Atlantic to you.

I’m sorry to have made the D statement and then disappeared, I had a busy day yesterday.

Achilles, I guess I was just feeling that your W really wasn’t doing any real work. I truly wanted to hear more than just her going to MC. She still had the AP in your life and I felt she was being elusive about IC.

I want to feel like there is a chance for R, but I usually reserve that for Wayward Partners who are trying 100% to do everything in their power to rebuild.

If you are going to give the gift of sticking around I don’t want you to feel like you settled for anything less.

Finally I think I was feeling that so far, with the effort she was putting in at 50%, maybe 75, that she didn’t deserve to be your wife. That she had so casually given away that title when she gave away so much for so long to the AP.

Trust is built over time and you have very little trust right now that she will do the right thing by you. When I mentioned her writing those letters that’s just one little thing a WS can do to start rebuilding that connection. I just didn’t feel she had that type of commitment in her.

I can tell you love her very much and I can tell you want to keep your family together. That’s because you are a good man who naturally put his trust in his wife who then shat all over that. You deserve to have someone move heaven and earth to make up for what they did to you. I want you to have that, I really do. But you can’t nuance her into it. You can only clearly ask for what you need in order to stay in the role as her husband. And if you don’t get it, make clear what you will do, and then do it.

There is hope,

As I said she turned and faced a different direction recently, but now she needs to either start following that path, or let you get on with your healing alone. That’ll never happen if she keeps you in limbo.

So tell us, what changed again last night? What happened?

[This message edited by Stevesn at 6:54 AM, May 26th (Tuesday)]

I get you. I think I am getting closer to the hows and whys. The closer I get, the more I think she has to get help for her inner demons.

Achilles, as BS we always want to figure this thing out and move forward but we can't. The hows and whys are not for you to figure out. They are for her. SHE has to do it and her hows and whys may not even be the same as yours when all is said and done because you don't have her brain and you don't really know what she was thinking during the A.

Regardless, she does need help. She needs IC with a counselor experienced with infidelity. She can get help from reading books like "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair" and "Not Just Friends". The WSes here on SI can help or on another infidelity related support site. She has options all around her and she will need to take as many as she can get. If she doesn't, R isn't going to work out.

She has turned cold and everything I wanted is gone

How is she acting cold?

Sorry about the other night. I really needed a break.

The past week has been pretty bad, the affair was front and center 24/7. I couldn't escape it even for a minute.

Everything built up in me until I was angry at everything. Angry at her, angry at him, angry at myself, angry at the situation, just angry.

I finally let it out and said some very hurtful things. She handled that about as well as I did and it went down hill. Said she would fight me on everything if we ended up in D.

When I finally calmed down, I was back to sad and felt like any progress we may have made was reversed.

I have been trying to make every day a new one and start over fresh. I took a day to relax and try to forget about everything. We actually were able to talk about the blow up and get back to where we were prior.

I was able to express that I didn't know what she was doing to help me heal, told her I needed to see it not just hear it. She told me about reading the books she bought and other things. I don't think she got that if I don't see it, it didn't happen.

She got approval to see a psychiatrist and is setting that up.

So anyway, that is what happened.

I really do appreciate all the advice/ help around here

Is “How to help your spouse heal from your affair” one of the books?

Brother, would you please read what you wrote?

She will fight you on "Everything" if you choose to divorce... OK.

So she did not say... My darling I love you so much, but if you need to end the marriage because of my affair, I understand. I just want a fair settlement or maybe a little bit better for you because I am the one that ruined our marriage....

No she did not say that... she did not say it because she is a horrible person, an entitled selfish cheater that until the last few years used you as someone to pay the bills.

She does not seem to love you and want to help fix ANYTHING that she has messed up.

Everyone has written you some long and very good advice.

Why don't you take it and divorce her and move on???

Stevesn,

Yes it is. She got two books with that title and a third that I forget the title.

She has finished one of the two How to help your spouse heal from your affair books

Achilles, anger is normal. There is going to be more lashing out before you are healed. That is par for the course. She did an incredibly hurtful and abusive thing to you. She needs to get that and not resort to threatening you with D when the going gets rough. Your anger is a consequence of her actions.

She handled that about as well as I did and it went down hill. Said she would fight me on everything if we ended up in D.

Wow. That is not remorse.

When I finally calmed down, I was back to sad and felt like any progress we may have made was reversed.

This is a very generic statement, but I feel it is basically true: sad is a passive, codependent emotion when going through something like this. Where is mad?

She has turned cold and everything I wanted is gone

Everything you wanted? Then please get IC. You need to work on liking yourself and your life. This need for your WW is toxic. It needs to be addressed.

Get mad. And stay there.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 1:46 PM, May 28th (Thursday)]

Ok, the truth hurts and now I am mad.

This sucks and I have not handled it well. I am doing the best I can given the circumstances.

I have two kids at home. No excuse for anything.

While everyone has been through this, only I have been through what I have been going through, Every situation is unique., while many patterns are followed, my situation is what it is and I am who I am.

I get everyone is trying to help.

Yeah everything I wanted, A family, a wife, a life. I get she blew that up. But that's what I wanted

I am not passive, codependent, just f'd up

[This message edited by achilles1101 at 7:35 PM, May 28th (Thursday)]

Yeah everything I wanted, A family, a wife, a life. I get she blew that up. But that's what I wanted

I don't believe this because if this was all you wanted, you wouldn't be posting on SI. You still have a wife, family, and life. The problem is what you really want is a loving wife, an honest wife, and a faithful wife that makes a stable family and a peaceful life. It's not clear at all if your WW is capable of giving you that. Given every single step towards R has been a multi-month fight with her, I suspect not.

I am not passive, codependent, just f'd up

Why not a little of all 3?

Take it from a former coD, you are showing the behaviors of someone who is codependent because you have spent about a year convincing your WW to R with you. Instead of accepting the relationship for what it is and accepting your WW's behavior for what it is, you spent a ton of time and energy trying to change her with mixed results. That's exactly what a codependent does because someone who isn't codependent doesn't NEED to change others. They accept them for who they are if they don't like the cheating spouse who refuses to show remorse, they choose themselves and move forward alone. They focus on themselves and their own healing hoping their WS will join them but knowing they will be okay if they don't. They don't bend over backwards getting their WS into IC, extracting the truth, and searching for remorse because they don't rely on their WS to give them happiness and meaning like a codependent does. They find it from within which is ironically similar to how WSes often lack meaning and validation from within themselves and go looking for it in others. It's the same kind of brokenness that you will need to confront and fix no matter what happens with your WW.

Did you ever pick up a copy of "No More Mr. Nice Guy"? It might help you confront your anger a bit more and be more comfortable setting boundaries and consequences with your WW.

Today is the anniversary of DDAY 1 so everything is heightened

She acknowledged the fact but it really didn't make it any easier. I appreciate it but we still are where we are

That is true, I want an honest loving wife and no it is not clear she can give that to me. Do I want it? yes, but I am old and tired and broken.

Is that a factor in all this? Yes, Am I hopeful she can unfuck herself? Yes, I am. If it doesn't work out I will D. Will I be happy about that? no but it is what it is.

Yes I bent over backwards trying to fix this and I won't apologize for it. I love her and that is just how it is.

I get she needs to fix herself. I have told her many times.

What I have spent a ton of time and energy on is trying to understand what happened. Maybe that is the same thing but it is what I felt I needed to do.

I guess long story short, I am still trying to figure out in my own stupid way, whether or not I can make this work.

What if you took a week, and stopped trying so hard. Much of what you are doing is her work. Not yours. So just stop. You can even let her know. Tell her you have decided to no longer drive the reconciliation bus. She’s the bus driver. She has to be. She’s the one who cheated.

Just try it and see how it feels.

Achilles, she cheated on you for a long time. This was no one night stand which would be hard enough to recover from. You can’t do it for her. You’ve told her what you need to see. If she were truly remorseful, you’d be seeing it.

If she is reading the how to help your spouse heal Book (didn’t know there were two, is one she has by Linda MacDonald?) then she knows what she needs to do. If she’s not doing it,

Then it’s a choice. And she probably is not doing it because she doesn’t think she has to in order to keep you around.

So how about you stop. Just stop pushing. Just for a week. Say til next Friday. Again, tell her you’ve told her what you need to feel loved and build back up your trust and feel safe. You might let her on that recover will take years and not weeks or months and if she’s not up for that, she should let you know now.

So tell her she has to drive it. You’ll gladly answer questions if she has them, but in addition to IC with an infidelity specialist and getting a new job away from the AP, it’s up to her to build the plan To rebuild. Let her know youd gladly discuss her plan and what’s good and what’s missing and her status whenever she asks. But she has to ask. Tell her to assume you are always hurting from her cheating. And then set her lose to fix it all or not.

And then you focus on you. Do things for you and the kids. Focus on IC for you. Get healthy. I think you are about the same age as me and if I’m not old, then you can’t be either. Take up new hobbies on your own. Order them from amazon and have them delivered if you can’t go out right now.

If she’s smart she will see them and ask to join you in them. You don’t have to ask her to. She needs to start planning things for you to do. Tell her you just can’t do that right now. Give her wings and let her fly or crash with them.

Stop driving. Stop doing her job. Stop taking control of the recovery. You should have control of the relationship by working The 180 and focusing on you. But if there’s going to be a recovery, It has to be initiated by her. You can stop telling her that. No more hand holding.

She knows. Now let’s see if she has The desire to make it happen.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 11:58 PM, May 28th (Thursday)]