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Ah, but I had been through it before. The difference was I saw what my first wife had become and it didn't hit me as hard.

With my current wife I didn't see it so I was unprepared. I didn't learn the coping skills, the first time. no help from anyone, just D.

Posted too soon

Edit:

I don't see the benefit for either the kids or me in divorce, just turmoil. If I can sacrifice to keep the family together and happy, I will do it. I am not a martyr or something special. The key is being able to keep a stable life for the kids. If they suffer by us staying together, obviously not good.

It will be turmoil temporarily. It's easy to look at it now because it's impossible for you to look 6 months, 1-2 years in the future when the D is settled, kids are used to the new normal, and you have healed and become content, peaceful, and happy. But that's the reality and it's a reality experienced by just about every BS. It's why every thread asking if anyone regrets D is only full of replies saying they did not even if it sucked for a little while. Many even said they wishes they did it sooner. D is not the big bad ultimate failure you're making it out to be.

By all means, if your WW can dislodge her head from her rear and start being R material and you can be happy with her, that is a winning scenario for you and your kids. BUT a losing scenario is not going to look the way you're assuming. It's not full of parents who fight. It consists of dad becoming sullen and losing site of himself while mom acts like everything is normal when it's not. We have had quite a few betrayed children come and share their experiences and they follow the pattern above. Yearsofpain25 wrote entire journals about what it was like seeing his dad never R or fully come to terms with his mom cheating on him and how he became a shell of himself and went on to eventually become a WS over the course of years (hence the name). THAT is what you're sacrificing. You're sacrificing a healthy, happy father if you stay and your WW does not pull it together for R. It's what you're sacrificing if you rugsweep and bottle your negative feelings. Sure, there won't be explosive fights but your kids will still suffer silently just as you will.

What's more important for children than parents who stay together are parents who are healthy. Parents who model healthy relationships because your children are statistically likely to pick a marriage just like yours. Would you wish your kids to be in your shoes right now 10-20 years down the line? Probably not. So whatever happens in your marriage, whether they know about it or not, is a teachable moment. You want that moment to say one of two things, "You can overcome a lot if both people are contrite and motivated," OR "It's okay to separate when your spouse doesn't treat you right. It's okay to put your health and happiness first." What you DON'T want to say is, "Stay and pretend to be happy as long as things are mostly okay."

[This message edited by nekonamida at 7:57 PM, June 1st (Monday)]

I hear what you are saying, but when you say your vows and honestly want to live the rest of your life with someone you you love, it is a failure.

It doesn't matter who is to blame, the failure is still there.

No I don't want my kids to be like me, Like every parent I want them to be better than me but it is me who needs to pull my head out of my ass so I can finally see.

I would like to make this work, I know most would say I am taking the wrong approach, but I am not committed to anything right now. I know what I would like but I can go either way.

I hear the stories of people who R and know it can be done. Sissoon is a great example.

Does that mean it will work for me, no, but I would like to thaink so

[This message edited by achilles1101 at 9:35 PM, June 1st (Monday)]

Ah, but I had been through it before. The difference was I saw what my first wife had become and it didn't hit me as hard.

With my current wife I didn't see it so I was unprepared. I didn't learn the coping skills, the first time. no help from anyone, just D.

Sigh... sorry about that then.

In a non-snarky sotto voce, all I can say is that I hope that you have learned something from this.

What would you say that you did differently between your fist experience and this one? Why did you notice things the first time, and not this time?

My first wife got a corporate job at a huge company and became obsessed with money, titles and power. It became clear that working class me was not going to cut it with her. I new the marriage was doomed.

I found out she was interested in a research doctor at her work. Even found out they were going to have sex for the first time at a company party.

I told her if she went to the party we were done. She went, I told her we were done and shortly thereafter she left me and the kids for him.

So I knew what she was going to do, told her not to and she did it anyway. Not much to think about.

With my current wife things are not so cut and dried. I knew she had issues, but basically missed all the signs and was caught totally off guard. I guess I was so in love with her and was so sure she was in love with me, that I was blind to everything.

Achilles,

At least your first was brazen about it. She transmitted her actions clearly,and hence you were able to see them easier.

The choice to make was made clear by your ex, and in a way, I have a bit more respect for that. She knew what she wanted, went for it, broadcast to you her intentions (through her actions), gave you a clear answer when you gave her a choice.

In your current case, the betrayal was done submarine-like, and more insidious.

For you to miss this would be totally understandable, as her behaviour gave you no inkling of the betrayal.

This con was 4.5years long, and the Machiavellian thinking that went into perpetuating the betrayal is mind-boggling.

You are no fool nor an idiot. You were just conned by someone who was more wily than you. There is no shame in you for that. The shame lies on the con artist.

Edit: corrected duration of the A.

[This message edited by RocketRaccoon at 2:21 AM, June 4th (Thursday)]

Do you see any similarities in the women you choose, having been through this twice?

That is a very interesting question as I am the common denominator.

Obviously both are flawed and needed something they felt was missing. Both had terrible experiences in childhood that shaped their adult lives.

I have wondered if I am attracted to women who are, for lack of a better term, broken. What in me needs that? My own lack of self esteem? The need to "fix" people? I don't really know.

In both cases I knew what their background was before I married them and it didn't dissuade me.

I am not sure. Has to be a flaw in me.

I recommend reading Co-Dependent No More by Melodie Beatty.

Your posts show several signs of co-d. If the description fits for you, there's a known path to authenticity.

I did some research into co dependency. I don't see where I might fit into that, but I am trying to evaluate myself and sometimes you can be to close to make an honest eval.

I do lots of things that have nothing to do with her and don't feel like I need her to need me.

I am a traditionalist though. I want the whole Norman Rockwell thing. I seem to pick the wrong people to try and get it with.

I have wondered if I am attracted to women who are, for lack of a better term, broken.

Your posts show several signs of co-d.

Yep.

These go together.

Maybe read under topic of fixers? Knight in shining armor? I must confess, this describes me as well. Sadly.

I did some research into co dependency. I don't see where I might fit into that, but I am trying to evaluate myself and sometimes you can be to close to make an honest eval.

I do lots of things that have nothing to do with her and don't feel like I need her to need me.

I am a traditionalist though. I want the whole Norman Rockwell thing. I seem to pick the wrong people to try and get it with.

Brother, with respect, I don't think I have heard someone write more co-dependent cliché than you have.

I will admit that it can be hard to understand.

One, just one way, to think about it is you care more about others and others feelings than you do your own.

But hold on caring about others is good right??? Sure it is, unless you care to the Detriment of YOU.

What some of it is... is a control thing. If I make everyone happy, then everything will be great, nothing bad will happen, I can control it.

But you can't. And you never will. Listen, read the book, just read it. It really should help you understand some things about yourself...

What could it hurt???

I thought about this a lot today and have come to the conclusion that I get involved with women despite the issues not because of them.

I foolishly believe love conquers all

[This message edited by achilles1101 at 4:48 PM, June 3rd (Wednesday)]

Brother, with respect, I don't think I have heard someone write more co-dependent cliché than you have.

How so? Honest question, I need to learn.

One, just one way, to think about it is you care more about others and others feelings than you do your own.

True in a general sense in that I can make sacrifices for the good of my family, but not to the detriment to me. My opinion.

What some of it is... is a control thing. If I make everyone happy, then everything will be great, nothing bad will happen, I can control it.

But I didn't make everyone happy. I don't think control is the issue. I said my mind at work and home, some things ruffled feathers and that is part of the reason I was respected at work, I said what I meant and if people didn't like it, oh well. That is part of the reason I earned respect from both bosses and subordinates. I even said in a room full of people that I disagreed with the big bosses decision.

It would never hurt to get more information. Thats why I researched it

I get involved with women despite the issues not because of them.

Why do you feel the need to 'fix' someone?

A friend of mine has similar qualities, in that he seems to be attracted to women who are 'damaged' (for want of a better word).

He grew up in a household that had an authoritarian father, and a submissive mother, and very little love was shown. This drove him to 'want' to be a father figure to his partner.

Did you grow up in a home like that? Do you feel that you 'need' to be a father figure? Do you feel that you need someone to be dependent on you?

No need to answer on this open forum, but it might be something to discuss this with your IC.

Probably not faithful. And please tell the other wife. Their life is not your concern. I bet she is continuing to lie to you..

I don't know that I do, just asking a question of myself.

I did not grow up in that type of family, Both parents were equal but different.

I don't need someone to be dependent on me. Both my ex wife and current wife are strong women, capable of living on there own without me, or anybody else.

When I say strong I mean capable of providing for themselves without a husband and being successful in careers.

HTM,

I told her, that is how I found out the whole story. Took me almost a year, but I did it and was sorry I didn't do it sooner.

Are both women selfishly broken, the kind who frequently have some self-focused drama? I ask because that is how your WW comes across, the type that turns every one of life's problems into a lot of 'look at me' drama. Alternately, you come across as someone who loves to help guide that drama into calm waters, the empathetic and steady type who needs to be seen as wise and rational.

Idk, but in my experience both of those personality types are raised in highly narcissistic homes with one taking after the selfish parent and the other learning how to selflessly cater to the selfish parent, flip sides of the same unsupportive childhood. Just my take over here across the miles and miles of bandwidth.

Fyi: it takes quite a bit of time to see yourself honestly, without judgment or defensiveness. It is hard to see ourselves in any one textbook definition, but a picture of our issues eventually emerges, one that helps us become better, stronger versions of ourselves. There is no blame in this mess, just enlightenment for a better future.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 9:28 PM, June 3rd (Wednesday)]

OIN,

I don't think so. Both suffered from trauma in childhood and dealt with it in different ways.

My childhood was pretty straightforward with no major issues.

I am a problem solver, a function of my personality and enhanced by my career. I don't believe I need to fix everyone or that everyone can be fixed. I am also a realist.

I am under no allusion that I am the perfect person. I get that I am imperfect. I also understand that self critique is hard.