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I am 2 1/2 yrs out from d day. We are moving forward to the extent that I will allow it. She has done the work and i do enjoy her company and like the person she has become. The problem lies with our sex life. It sucks honestly, because i make it that way. I can't get past the sexual aspect of what she has done. My coping mechanism to this was to check out of sex, basically get unhooked:(). Just not care and put no effort into it. Physical intimacy just brings me more pain. Now the why's

I will never and have no ability to be the a/p. Our w/h and w/w are never going to get the same "high" they got with the a/p. It's not possible. They moved heaven and earth to facilitate sex with a/p. Their actions at the time speak volumes

Waywards say there were high "highs" and very low "lows"

My question is to those of you who R/a or even had these limerance type relationships in your life why are the highs not worth it? Why won't an r/a make me feel better. Why shouldn't i experience the "high" associated with a limerance relationship? To have a ww do to/for me what my ww did for a/p sounds great almost well "fantasy"

Im prepared for a 2x4 if necessary

The highs might be worth it for you, but what about the person you're using to get back at your WS? What if they fall in love with you in the process? What about their thoughts and feelings? Will you be honest with them about just wanting to use them to get back at your WS?

I've heard it said before on here since this topic seems to have come up a lot lately, but I think you'll be hard pressed to find a someone who would be willing to let you use them and be thrown away like that.

And you're right about affairs being fantasies. That's exactly what they are — completely out of the realm of reality. Just like any other form of escapism, they look very different on the other side of it.

Experiencing that "high" yourself won't take away the pain and anger you carry from what your WS has done to you, but you won't be justified in feeling it any longer after you've done the same thing to her. Are you ready to choke down your feelings for the rest of your relationship just to temporarily get your rocks off?

If you want the high of a new relationship, then have the balls to go find one after you leave your WS. But keep in mind that, once those highs go away, reality will come crashing in once again.

Our w/h and w/w are never going to get the same "high" they got with the a/p.

They did get it with us...when our relationship was new . This "high" doesn't last though. What DOES last is another "high" that comes about with a long term relationship! THIS high not only lasts...it gets better as time goes on . It may not be as intense...but it feels so GOOD. The best part is that it is from authenticity!

I have felt the HIGH of going through the trauma that the A inflicted...and coming out to the other side...WITH my H . There have been a few people who said that their RA made the playing field even and allowed them to go into R with them both having this "high". The vast majority of those who had an RA feel like they have lost their integrity and it just was NOT worth it.

You have many options in front of you. All of us do. I hope you choose the path that will be the best option for whatever it is you want . You KNOW right from wrong Dear Sir. Don't use your WW's A as an excuse for doing something that you know is not right.

My "high" happened when I was a kid basically. So long ago I guess I have forgotten. Wouldn't the "high" between 2 sexually mature adults be so much more intense? Asking for a friend:()

Also i find Joanna2013 response very common from a female here. Nothing wrong with it but I think males look at this differently. Females aren't helpless little damsels that we have been brainwashed into thinking. My ww was using ap just as much as he was using her. So no i don't feel like I would be leading on some other ww in an r/a. She would likely be using me also.

It sucks honestly, because i make it that way.

Why not work on that? An RA is never equalizing, but let's just say for a moment that you've gone through with it? Now what? Is your WW any less repulsive to you? The facts are still the facts. She can't unfuck anyone. Do you suddenly get over it?.. go back to regular sexual relations with your WW because now you've got yours?

I just don't think your problems would vanish like that. The hurt isn't equal. It landed on you unsuspecting, out of blue, bam! This would be premeditated. And in terms of why cheaters cheat, it's because they've got something missing in their character which allows cheating to be an option. Maybe your WW has done the work to repair that fault. But you would go in, all along KNOWING that you're throwing your integrity away. You're hurt because you BELIEVE in faithfulness. It's part of your internal value system. Tossing it out just damages you. You're less of the person you were at that point.

If you're determined to keep the marriage... and you don't have to, no cheater is owed a second chance, but if you're determined... wouldn't it be better to work through the sexual dysfunction? That say, you'd be genuinely satisfied with your choice to stay and you wouldn't be taking the risk of hurting some innocent third party.

Counseling with a trauma therapist can help you. Therapies like EMDR and Mindfulness can take the heat out of the pain. If you don't respond to that, you can also see a sex therapist. And if it's ED, you can work with your medical doctor. There are still other viable options left which don't require you to throw your values away.

Strength to you.

I'm not saying females are helpless. I'm saying that no one, male or female, deserves to be used by someone who just wants to get back at their WS.

To have a ww do to/for me what my ww did for a/p sounds great almost well "fantasy"

If you're in the market for a WW, you're trying to create a BS.

Chasing a high is never a good thing. When a cheater describes the “high,” you should probably walk away and leave them to their own bullshit. Because those are the words of someone who STILL uses the other to make himself feel better, no matter the cost to the other. This is Joanna’s point about using another person.

If you talk to a FCS who has a more objective view of the high from a clearer perspective, you’ll hear the terrible fact of any affair (to include a R/A): The perceived value (the “high”) was actually the magnification/amplification of our darkest and most misguided feelings, to the degree that we chose to believe them as fact. Cheaters trust those feelings and only when they work to discredit them do they learn how wrong they were.

If you know in advance that these feelings are driving you, you have every tool you need to NOT betray.

Hey guy, though I never had a revenge affair, I do have some perspective here, I think.

After my separation/divorce I embarked on my own 30-something male version of Seinfeld's "Rochelle, Rochelle" for the better part of the year. I found myself on a thousand Tinder dates and having all sorts of fun and exciting new experiences with women that felt really, really, really good. Without question one of the best time periods of my life. A "high" if you will. I regret *almost* none of it (I'll get to that at the end).

First of all, to this:

So no i don't feel like I would be leading on some other ww in an r/a. She would likely be using me also.

Sleep with someone else's wife, and you're a piece of shit. Especially after what you've been through. You know this. I don't even have to break it down for you. You don't want to be that guy, you don't want to do that to *another* guy, and you don't want that to become part of who you are. So this option--sleeping with a married woman--should be out for you.

So maybe you try to find someone single instead. Do you imagine, out there in the Tinderverse, that you can post a sexy picture of yourself with a bio that says "Just looking for some NSA fun!!" and you'll get any bites at all? It's possible if you're a 10/10 in looks and a 20-year-old looking for other 20-year-olds. Otherwise, good luck with that one. I have extensive Tinder experience, and I gotta tell you, this is not generally the average experience for a dude. Probably not what will work for you.

So instead, maybe you make a regular profile, highlighting your handsomest, most attractive features and attributes, and really do get a few solid matches and start chatting. Maybe get a number or two.

At that point, you have some choices to make. Will you tell her you're married? Will you divulge your current emotional state, desires, and intentions? Will you make it clear right from the start that you only want sex? I mean sure, you'd love to be *friends* share some drinks and a few laughs, but ultimately this is only sex? Because if you're being honest and treating human beings with respect, this is what you should be saying.

Or instead, will you say you're "separated" or "in the process of divorcing"? Will you say "I'm not sure what I'm looking for"? Will you say "I'm going slow, but open to a few possibilities"? Will you say juuuuust what you need to say to get this woman to have sex with you?

If you say things like this, you'll be lying and half-truthing to these people who may otherwise be legitimately interested in building a relationship with you. Not really sexual assault, but hovering in the ballpark. You'll be in "sexual coercion" land...another stupid, shitty place for you to be, and unbelievably hurtful to someone who's out there really trying.

You're correct that women aren't "helpless little damsels," but human beings in general deserve to know the truth about the situations they're in, especially when they're putting themselves in vulnerable emotional and sexual situations. Remember all of that stuff from when you were in the wake of DDay?

~

Beyond alllllllll of this, you'd be having an affair. Even if your wife deserves it, you then become a WS just like her. All that you need from her in recovery...you won't really be able to get anymore. All the things you want to say to her, you won't really be able to get away with anymore, because she'll now be justified in saying the same to you. And now she'll need support from *you* in the reconciliation process if there is to be one. How will you do that, when you're already so angry and hurt by her?

I don't see much chance of a true reconciliation at that point.

~

So. I already told you I had tons of experiences with other women after separation/divorce and it felt great. You can do that, too -- if you also get a divorce. Why not go that route?

It's a tough choice, man. I get it. And you didn't ask for it, but here you are anyway. You can go one way *with* your wife, or you can go another way *without* her. Both demonstrate your strength and grit as a man. Both are legitimate and respectable.

Cheating on your wife is just low and stupid, unlikely to even work, and will put you in a supremely shitty place. Likely will hurt another person. You definitely know that.

~

Back to what I said earlier: that I regret *almost* none of my post-separation/divorce experience.

Looking back, I can see that no matter how open and honest I thought I was being, and no matter how much compassion I thought I was showing these women, there were some people who legitimately wanted a relationship with me and were hurt in the dating/sex/breakup process. It's complicated out there, but I know in my heart that I could have been much more in tune with what I was doing and what the consequences of my actions would be. I really thought I was doing my best, but I can look back and see that I was being selfish at times and likely took things further with some people than they should have probably gone. That hurt them, and it was shitty of me.

My point? It's not a game out there in the dating world. If you're going to put yourself out there, you have to be prepared to be really honest and aware of what you're doing, because other people's lives are now in play. If you're going to be a good person, you have to work hard at this.

~

I said a lot here. Hopefully some of it is helpful.

[This message edited by Okokok at 4:45 PM, May 15th (Friday)]

Wouldn't the "high" between 2 sexually mature adults be so much more intense?

I haven't felt a difference from when I had the NRE (new relationship energy), from my teenage relationships up to my adult relationships.

I haven't had an A...but I have had the "high" that taboo instances can bring. It was extremely exciting at the time...but NOW...I can guarantee you that the feeling of disgust I feel over what I did is not worth ANY high I felt.

I've said it before, but I swear if an RA would remove this pain from a BS, I would make it my life goal to create as many madhatter situations as possible with books, dating sites, webpages, blogs, billboards, etc. Everyone is sadly right. It doesn't do anything for that.

Now, I will say that I had a ONS with a muscled much younger man AFTER I left my XWH that was very healing and I don't regret that a bit. But trying that while married and trying to R? Nah. Would not have changed a thing.

I've heard it said before on here since this topic seems to have come up a lot lately, but I think you'll be hard pressed to find a someone who would be willing to let you use them and be thrown away like that.

I wish the World was free of those who are willing to be used and discarded like that... it’s sad that these people exist...

My STBX WH had many RAs... he has yet to confirm what I have or had actually done to deserve this Revenge..

According to WH there are only too many willing participants in this evil vile act of revenge

I find Okokok’s Response very comprehensive.

To add to it... would you be able to do it? It’s the "injustice" of it. Waywards have no problems doing it. Causing pain and devastation for their own selfish needs? No problem!

For the rest of us, normal human being, not so easy. And to make it "even", you’ll have to find someone who is willing to go along for say... 1 year.... (however how long her affair lasted). And for that year, you need to keep it a secret, and lead a double life. Can you do it? Support her in her recovery. Tell her you love her. Then, a year later, tell her it was a lie. Trickle truth her, maybe gas light her. Tell her she’s crazy, but make your AP send you text to confuse her some more. The perfect R/A. Can you do it? Because a ONS won’t be "even".

What is your objective? The NRE (the high) or the revenge?

You can get the NRE by divorcing, and do like okokok. You could tell your WW that you want to go your separate way, explore the world, you do whatever you want to do, she does whatever she wants to do, and who knows, in a year from now maybe your paths will cross again.

If you want revenge, it’s easy. Just divorce her. She’ll become a divorced woman dumped by her husband because she’s an adulterer. Her future won’t be exactly bright.

I think a lot of SI posters don't fully understand 'limerence'.

One characterization of 'Limerence' is from a Psychology Today article:

1) Obsessive thinking about the object of your affection

2) Irrationally positive evaluation of their attributes

3) Emotional dependency

4) Longing for reciprocation

I just don't get the attraction....

I've been in that initial stage of love 3 times, and I do not have fond memories of those periods.

I DO remember the joy of being with my limerent object. Those were great, great highs. But they were followed by despair when we parted.

I was with W2b 4-6 times a week after class for at least an hour each time. (We got together only after classes. I didn't want the complications of dating any classmate, and I was afraid she wouldn't go out with me anyway.) I went through that damned joy-despair cycle every time.

Later, after we started dating, we saw each other only every other weekend. 2 days of joy, followed by 2 weeks of ever-increasing hopelessness. Truly, when I look back on that time, I remember feeling alive when I was with her and feeling as if I was dying when we were apart.

I really hate applying the term 'dating' to what I was doing. I literally felt as if the relationship meant life or death to me, and 'dating' just didn't cover that.

I can't understand any adult's wanting limerence.

[This message edited by sisoon at 10:37 AM, May 16th (Saturday)]

I find it more appropriate to use the term NRE, new relationship energy. That description of limerance paints it so negatively and it doesn't have to be that way (and usually isn't when it's done ethically, IMO), except that in this case, it's cheating. I suspect that limerance is used in this case specifically because it's an illicit relationship, rather than using a more positive term. NRE is the common moniker in nonmonogamous forums. I feel like I should do a longer writeup on this at some point because I agree there seems to be a lack of understanding in what is actually going on in this phase.

Every relationship goes through a phase of NRE (new relationship energy) before changing. NRE doesn't last forever, although when you're really lucky, it morphs into ERI (established relationship intimacy) which is all the passion and romance of NRE plus the trust and knowledge and vulnerability of a longstanding relationship. NRE can last anywhere from 6 months to 2 years in a "real" relationship, so I suspect it could be that much longer in an illicit one where there is less connection and in-person time.

Just because you have a longstanding relationship doesn't mean it can't be passionate and full of energy the way a new relationship is. You just have to find ways to connect like that.

As a poly person, I tend to find that when I develop NRE with a new partner that it floods my current relationship with ERI- spillover NRE, if you will. For some people it goes the other way and they neglect existing relationships when they meet someone new.

I think the most important thing is recognizing that it's not the person that generates those feelings, but the newness and the anxiety (positive kind of anxiety in a way). It means you aren't seeing the other person as they are, but as you want them to be. They aren't inherently more exciting or passionate than your partner- they're just a new experience. NRE isn't "meaningful feelings" for that reason- it's just endorphins. It's what feels like falling in love, but it's nothing more than looking into a mirror. Real feelings come from getting to know a person and being truly vulnerable and open and honest with them.

I think that as long as a WS actually realizes that, they can work on learning ways to bring that passion and ERI back into their marriage rather than looking for it externally. Barring some extreme circumstances and mismatch, the grass is greenest where you water it.

A R/A is going to do nothing but hurt another person. By the time you develop NRE, the other person will also be feeling it and it's simply cruel to use another individual like that when you have no intention of developing a healthy and lasting relationship with them- if you did, you would have a clean break and divorce your spouse rather than have a R/A.

Honestly, I think NRE is one of the wonderful things in life, but you have to think of it as a drug, because that's how your body recognizes it. It's probably why some people really enjoy it (NRE junkies) and some people do not like it at all. But I could never countenance trying to enjoy it at the expense of another human being. And it would never compete with the wonderful experience of ERI. If you want to experience a high and you want to stay married to your WW, why not focus on rebuilding that with her? You can develop NRE for your new relationship if you work at it together.

[This message edited by PSTI at 6:58 PM, May 16th (Saturday)]

My WH has said exactly this:

They did get it with us...when our relationship was new . This "high" doesn't last though.

He referred to it as the "infatuation stage" and he is correct. I had it with him as well. The same would apply for you and someone new unfortunately. I get the whole sex thing - I do. It's not the same and never will be. It's not even very fun half the time. I don't have any advice as to how to make it more exciting except to change your attitude. I think it stems from a wall that people in our positions put up - enjoy it physically to the extent it's enjoyable but don't give yourself completely to your WS then it won't hurt much if things go to shit.

That's where I am unfortunately. My WH are not in R - but we are still living together until my job ends in 5 months and yeah, we've had sex since we officially separated over a year ago...not much but we have. And it was fine - I was fine afterwards - because I wanted the physical stimulation but he is not the same for me. I don't think he ever will be. Maybe that means its a deal breaker for you if you feel the same way? I think it was for me and I didn't want to admit it for a long time.

Infidelity is a train wreck.

No train wreck in the history of train wrecks was ever mitigated, 'made all better,' by adding more bodies to the wreckage.

Get other people involved in your already complicated and damaged situation, you are simply adding their issues and damage and needs and wants and quirks and glitches to your train wreck.

Not to mention: wild cards. Collateral damage. Shit you did not see coming, did not anticipate, did not intend, can't take back once it happens.

Even 'hiring a professional,' legally, in a locality where it *is* legal, comes with all sorts of wild cards, although IMHO (don't flame me) it probably has fewer wild cards than an illicit involvement with a private individual.

If you think of infidelity as a catastrophe, it only makes sense to involve as few additional people in it as possible.

my two cents ... if it happened naturally then well...maybe (post Dday for me - all doors were open but no one really seemed to peak my interest and I'm just not the type to use people) so likely you'd just be looking for someone to screw to get back at your WS - I don't see how it's the same - you'd be thinking of your WS the whole time ("HA! how does it feel?" ???) Not the same thing as the original affair - which was some kind of connection/attraction that made it worth forever damaging your wife or husband.