SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Whatslove,

Your original post was unclear and of course, the topic gets percolated down to “is sex during marriage an obligation ?”.

Going into JFO, one can even read stories where the WS withholds sex (while the BS is wondering what the hell is going on) “out of respect of his/her spouse” while having plenty of it with the AP. All kind of stories all over the place...

What is your BF is doing is wrong. I can assure you that whatever debate there was with various members of the community on this thread... we will all agree that, in your situation, it’s pretty clear cut, he’s a selfish entitled cheater.

He doesn’t love you. It’s all about him and his needs.

The important part is what are you doing to get out of infidelity?

[This message edited by ShutterHappy at 1:48 PM, September 10th (Thursday)]

Okay, so he's a fucking asshole. This is NOT you. This is him being an entitled empathy-deficient jerk.

Sex is not payment.

If my wh wants sex as payment for me staying home and him working then I'll go to work. Better yet I'll find another husbandd. I am not his prostitute.

I gave up my own income to stay home and raise a family. I dont work to bring in an income but I deal with absolutely everything to do with the children, school, housework, medical stuff, meal prep, and I run a bloody farm! On.my. own....

What does wh do? He works from 5am to 6pm four days a week, 5-12 one day and sits on his ass the rest of the time...

I do not get a lunch break, I dont get a bonus, I dont get a vacation. I get shit on and barfed on and deal with snotty noses. And it's a 24/7 job. If one of the kids is sick at night I'm the one up.

If you read my entire post, I clearly stated that BOTH emotional and physical intimacy is required. My point was simply, and rather bluntly, to suggest that it is completely disingenuous for women, on one hand, to demand all this emotional intimacy as a prerequisite for a healthy marriage and on the other say that sex is not. It simply doesn't work that way. So to interpret my post that sex is transactional is just not true AT ALL. If sex was transactional, I could have saved a lot of damn money (and heartache) and hired it on demand.

Maybe this really is a fundamental difference between genders that will never be reconciled here. As for me? Well...I didn't do all the grunt work of child-rearing. Not that I refused or thought it was "woman's work," but I was starting my company. This was a mutual choice we made as partners in a marriage. We were almost flat broke before my business took off. I worked 16 hour days 7 days a week sometimes. Vacations? Didn't do that either until my business finally got over the hump and my wife convinced me that it would survive a week in my absence. Were there other things I would have liked to have been doing during that time? Hell yes.

My WW was really in the trenches for our first child. Was I an sex demanding a-hole when her eyes were bloodshot and her hair was sticking up and she had not shaved for 4 days? Hell no, because I was just as tried as she was. Our second child was much different as our financial situation had changed dramatically. I could afford a housekeeper and a nanny. Our first child was in school and the trenches were not so bad.

My point is not to compare war stories, but to point out that you completely misread my post. Because to this day, I still bust my ass. And my WW does too, but not nearly to the extent that she did. Her pre-DDay life of being spoiled was her bonus (for lack of a better word) for all the years of hard work that she contributed to the marriage that allowed me to grow my business... and she threw it all back in my face by having an affair...with an thrice divorced airline pilot. Talk about the stereotypical bored housewife syndrome.

I apologize. I did read your post but how I interpreted it is what I wrote.

For me, I'll speak for myself....I cannot have the desired physical intimacy if there isnt the emotional connection. My vajajay isnt going to get all lubed up and ready unless I'm in the right headspace and that isnt going to happen with a husband demanding sex or not putting any effort in making this a partner event and not just a penis in vagina so he can blow his load thing.

And that is magnified in a marriage with infidelity. He put in a tonne of effort to get his ows convinced sleeping with him was a good idea. Why not put in that same effort with me.

Just because I'm his wife he doesnt need to do anything? I'm obligated to get him off because I'm his wife? Nope, not happening. It's a two way street.

Sure the occasional fuck fest where its just all animal like and just fucking happens too but in a relationship there needs to be more. In these cases I need alot of ky.

In terms of what I'm doing to get out of infidelity? I left him when I found out. Dday was in March. We have been talking the last month and just started therapy, we are not living together or making any final decisions yet.

Lately the more we delve into the hard stuff the more I feel like he still has an active wayward mindset. Idk if its my hypervigilance. For example, yesterday he asked me how I caught him (I had been holding my cards close because I still don't have the full story from him). I told him (gps on car and accessed his bank accounts). He denied it but I could tell hearing this upset him. It was an overall defensive attitude. He said he would need to tighten security on his bank accounts. I said to keep me out or other people, and he said no one should be in his buisness account period. He then said if I put as much effort into our intimacy as I did in investigating him we wouldn't of had this problem to begin with. this is not good right?

And yes yes yes to the blown up doll comments. At one point towards the end I asked for a hug and he said no unless we were going to have sex talk about feeling like nothing but a hole for his pleasure.

I'm sorry you are feeling this way.

So are you still together now? What is it YOU want? Are you both still in therapy? (Mc is marriage counseling while IC refers to individual counseling).

How is life with the baby now? Are you able to sleep?

Sorry we posted at the same time.

He then said if I put as much effort into our intimacy as I did in investigating him we wouldn't of had this problem to begin with. this is not good right?

To me this is blame shifting. Hes saying that it was your fault he cheated. That's a load of bullshit. Please do not take the blame for his shitty decisions and choices.

What dis HE do to resolve the bedroom issues HE was having prior to jumping ahipnans having an affair ?

You cannot move forward with a wayward that doesnt take responsibility for their own actions.

Please leave this jerk OP!

I don't know what the point of counseling is if he's all upset that you got into "his business" by discovering that he cheated and he's still blaming you for his cheating. You aren't married and that makes it easier to split permanently.

To clarify, he is a buisness owner with a buisness bank account. Not his buisness as in it doesn't concern me.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ (as to DevastatedDee's post)

If his stated plan is to batten down the hatches rather than commit to being open & honest, he is not R material. I doubt MC will help.

ETA - and his business DOES concern you, as he's a known liar, known cheater, and known to use that account to hide his extracurricular activities. And this is why we tell BS not to disclose how they discovered the A.... just becomes another way for a WS to take it further underground.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 3:30 PM, September 10th, 2020 (Thursday)]

This0is0Fine for the win.

If we're keeping score.

P.S. People can expect or deny whatever they want in M. That's where communication and boundaries come in, which are literally the only tools we have in getting our needs met. Impossible to overstate their timeless value.

having just given birth, a new born care, an illness or injury can

lead to sex not happening short term. though after a few

months healing is done and things can come back,

way different then not wanting sex, or refusing sex.

For example, yesterday he asked me how I caught him (I had been holding my cards close because I still don't have the full story from him). I told him (gps on car and accessed his bank accounts).

“I want to know so that I don’t get caught next time”

He denied it but I could tell hearing this upset him. It was an overall defensive attitude. He said he would need to tighten security on his bank accounts. I said to keep me out or other people, and he said no one should be in his buisness account period.

Except for money used for his AP. That’s ok.

He then said if I put as much effort into our intimacy as I did in investigating him we wouldn't of had this problem to begin with.

“Don’t investigate my mistresses and be better in bed, even after giving birth. Then you won’t be a problem for me.”

this is not good right?

No it is not.

He said he would need to tighten security on his bank accounts. I said to keep me out or other people, and he said no one should be in his buisness account period. He then said if I put as much effort into our intimacy as I did in investigating him we wouldn't of had this problem to begin with. this is not good right?

If you're his domestic partner, why wouldn't you be allowed to see any account he has? I think when you said "to keep me out or other people?", he deflected onto his business account in order to cover his umbrage. Then he flings out this insult about you "investigating him" in order to blame-shift.

I know you're probably overwhelmed and worried about providing a family to your baby. But from what you've posted here, this guy will make you miserable for the rest of your life if you keep him. MC is NOT a magic wand that can cure all ills. The sad fact of the matter is that most people don't change. If you go to MC with him, he might nod his head and agree to do better, and maybe he will for awhile. But real change happens when the cost of NOT changing has become intolerable. The WS has to want it more than anything else. They have to recognize that they have a problem, then dig down to find the roots of it and replace it with a new belief. They have to install boundaries which protect that new belief and learn to live by them. This guy is NOT going to do that. He's still standing there telling you that if you 'put out' more, he'd have been faithful.

Cheating is about CHARACTER. It's about the gap between what a person says they believe and what the actions they take. If a person REALLY believes in the core value of fidelity, they won't cheat without a gun to their head. Your WP's belief in fidelity is weak and permeable. It has a "but..." in it. ie. "I believe in fidelity, but... not if I want more sex". This is just about the worst excuse for tossing aside one's values that I can imagine, because it reeks of ENTITLEMENT. What that guy truly believes is that he is "entitled" to your body and to being serviced by you.

By the incident you described, his tendencies are narcissistic. And that is NOT something you want to deal with in the long term. Whether he's a full-blown narc or not remains to be seen, but you can already see how he shuts you out as not his equal in terms of access to his business and how he devalues you when you aren't of use to him.

Your baby will be fine. Studies show that children do well if they have just ONE sane parent. I think your best bet would be to see an attorney, break up with this guy, and get child support assigned. There are much better men out there, men who won't objectify you and will be a better partner and role model for your child. If you're just not ready to throw in the towel yet, promise yourself that you won't take him back for at least a year. He's got THAT much work to do in IC. MC won't help. He needs an individual therapist to wring the bullshit entitlement from his mind, and even then you should be wary. This type doesn't usually respond well to treatment. They think they know everything already.

((big hugs)) Promise yourself that you won't take this guy back unless you see REAL CHANGE over a large quantity of TIME.

Oh hell no. If he actually said that he is going to tighten up security because you told him how you found out, then you really should leave him as soon as possible. That is a big ass red flag.

Also, you shouldnt reveal your methods.

I'll always regret doing that. But I didn't reveal ALL of them. Which is one of many reasons I'm getting divorced and happy about it.

The exact statement by the OP that has set so many of us off is this:

I personally do not think it's my responsibility to make sure my partner is sexually satisfied

A married man has four options -- only four -- for sexual satisfaction:

1. His wife.

2. Rosie Palm.

3. Infidelity.

4. Divorce.

OP's statement excludes 1 as an option. It relegates her husband to choices 2 - 4. Why would any married woman who wants to remain married put her husband into that position.

As some have noted, most married couples go through a phase of little or no sex during babies/little kids. This is a normal incident of parenthood and most men accept this as part of being a father, understanding that it's temporary. I don't think this colors the basic discussion.

Similar with respect to a marriage in which a spouse becomes incapacitated due to age, illness, or injury. In a strong marriage with a base of healthy affection and desire, an honorable spouse would accept these eventualities as part of the risks of living a life; understanding the reciprocal nature if the tables were turned.

A husband unwillingly relegated to 2 by a wife's voluntary choice (not driven by external circumstances such as babies or illness) will eventually consider 3 or 4.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 11:59 AM, September 11th (Friday)]

I only read the OP and a few responses after that. I'm not trying to stir the pot, and I won't discuss my opinion any further.

First, it is not your obligation to satisfy your spouse in any way. Not sorry, but marriage does not include an obligation to satisfy your spouse sexually.

So, regardless of what anyone may have said about you causing the problem by expecting celibacy and monogamy, your CP has no excuse for cheating. If he was really that dissatisfied with the lack of sex between you two, he could've left. I totally get why you don't feel safe after his asinine excuse. He's blameshifting. He's telling you that, unless you do what he wants, how he wants, and when he wants, he will cheat.

Why would any married woman who wants to remain married put her husband into that position.

IDK, but I lived it personally. I have a few theories (for my personal situation), but I think it comes down to two things; power and lack of care/understanding.

Imagine if we make this about something else, let's say food instead of sex. And further, let's imagine that instead of sex being exclusive to marriage, we make it dinner; after marriage you may only have dinner with and prepared by your spouse.

Given that buildup, I'm a very light eater, I get really nothing out of eating other than "not hungry anymore". I don't like fancy food/dinners, in fact, I'd eat the same thing every day for the rest of my life pretty happily. And I'd eat it as fast as I can so I can get back to whatever it is that I really want to do. For the sake of discussion though, let's say my wife is the opposite, she really enjoys cooking, meals, the experience of eating and dining.

Well, for me, the constraint of "dinner only with my spouse" is kind of a non-issue. I don't really care for it anyway, it's a necessary thing, but not something I revel in. It's just not that big a deal to me, but, to my wife, it is. She likes having fancy dinners and drawn out dining experiences.

Well, let's fast forward a bit to our married life with "mismatched dinner desires". She's often asking "can we go out" (because without me, she cannot have a good dinner by virtue of having make dinner exclusive to marriage), something I kind of view as a waste of time/money and doesn't do much/anything for me. I could be thoughtful and think "it's important to her" and decide to go out to eat 5 nights a week, or I could, which is I think what often happens, start to realize the power that our "dinner imbalance" give me. Sure, we can go out to eat every night, so long as you do XYZ first. I need to be "wooed" into dinner, it's not just going to happen, even though it did in the beginning (because I was trying to impress). The imbalance in our desire for something, coupled with making it exclusive to marriage, gives whoever desires that thing less immense power over the other person. The more imbalanced the "dinner desire" the more power one person has over the other.

And this is basically what happens in many relationships with sex. It's not a total one way street, this happens to women too (I've read it about here), but whatever the gender, the "low desire" partner starts to gain an immense amount of power over the high desire partner. And we hear about it often enough that we don't even think about it, "If he want's "this" he better work for it, take me out, show me a good time, and then maybe". In fact, in the case of sex, the imbalance is so severe that escorts are paid more the most attorneys or doctors to provide the "service".

The less negative (and probably more often true) way to look at this, rather than a willful desire to extract something (choreplay, gifts, emotional closeness, etc) is just a simple dismissal of the desire at all. I think this is more where my wife fell. Going back to the dinner analogy, I'm very "low desire" for food, it's not that I wanted to keep her from having the meal she wants, it's just that it didn't cross my mind and went to bed without eating dinner. It's more "oversight" than it is a conscious decision not to do something to get some result in return. The net result is basically the same but with very different intent. I think this happens quite often, it's certainly happened to me in relation to my analogy, my wife will eventually look at me and say "I'm starving, we haven't eaten all day" and I'll think "Shoot, totally slipped my mind, and I'm hungry too, let's go get something to eat". It's not a willful denial, it's just "this isn't at all important to me, and I forgot about it" even though it's important to you.

IDK, but I lived it personally. I have a few theories (for my personal situation), but I think it comes down to two things; power and lack of care/understanding.

There's one more component to this. Initiation. Think back to dating, pre-kids, pre-"adult responsibilities". Initiation was easy. She either wanted or I did. Sort of like doing it like they do on the Discovery channel type stuff. Fast forward to kids...she was either too tired, or I was too tried, and then as the kids reach a certain age, they became the biggest impediments to sex there is, always needing something or walking into the room at the worst possible time.

That can lead to a lack of desire to initiate, not necessarily a lack of desire to have sex. Because most of time (not all), the worst sex we have had was pretty good. Even if you have to fake yourself into getting into it.

But instead, both partners tend to sit there, wondering if now is the time, etc. and after awhile, that becomes the normal cycle.