SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

AH whatever you decide we will be here for you.

I have no doubt that you and everyone here have my best interest in their mind, very appreciated.

Primary is if you can live with the things she did, said, and planned to do prior to being busted.

I might not be a normal person, or maybe I'm just going trough a cycle of different emotions but believe me, all that doesn't bother me anymore. it isn't my concern at this moment.

See you in three years AH

That was uncalled for.

Thanks Lalagirl, I was not offended by what Newlifeisgreat wrote, he( or she) has a point and I took it as he or she wanted to warn me, I have to admit that some of the stories here of BS returning after years of R expressing their regret or pain is scary.

That's not to say that I don't make any sort of commitment or that I don't stand my the commitments I make. But taking ownership of the space you're in kind of demands that you define it. I didn't commit to R right away. I committed to "trying" for R. I took ownership of "trying", full in the knowledge that just as the leaf floats down the stream, time could change my perspective again. Taking full ownership of your choice gives you FREEDOM. You're no longer a victim, you're a decision-maker. You decide where you'll stand and for how long. You trust yourself to know what's best for you, and also to know that YOU ARE ENOUGH if it all goes to shit and you need to make another choice.

Anyway, you don't have to eat the bear in one bite. You've got time to think about who your are and what you want. Just remember though that time is still fluid, not static... and so are the people. There are no absolutes. There's only the ground you choose to stand on today and your freedom to make a different choice tomorrow.

ChamomileTea, your input has always been spot on and very helpful Thank you. I know excatly what you mean, I'm tiresd of trying to eat the whole bear in one bite, I'm a straight forward type of guy and won't lie to myself. I've been trying to force myself but not realized that I can only act on how I feel.

You might consider Discernment Counseling. You can find more information on that pretty readily online, but basically, it brings the two parties together to figure out if divorce is really the right answer. If counseling isn't in the cards for you right at the moment, you might consider a dinner meeting once per week to discuss progress. A "therapeutic" separation has purpose and rules. You decide together what the purpose and the rules will be. It seems to me though that without discussion, you can't measure change, so I do think there needs to be some method of regular contact which is frequent enough to demand focus, but not so frequent as to encourage further enmeshment. A good therapist can help you find balance on that, but it's not strictly necessary if you're both communicating efficiently.

this is exactly what we are doing with the help of some friends I just didn't know it's called Discernment. we will be meeting periodically, not weekly but more monthly or biweekly. starting as soon as I'm Covid free.I will share more details once we I learn more about this myself.

Odd how half the board has you in R when you have made it clear you are not there yet.

You are doing what you need and that is right for you.

thanks longsadstory1952, maybe because I'm just bad at expressing myself in writing. I just want to figure out what I really want. at this moment if 1 was divorce and 10 was reconciliation, I'm at 3.

Having said that, the question you ask is whether she can really love you After what she did. I read that and went omg no. That is so not the right question. Of course she will say she loves you now, then and when she lived her 2 years in bigamy. She will swear on the eyes of her children that she loves you. She has been doing that since day one of your learning of her lies and deception. She will go to the ends of the earth love bombing you. She probably believes it, and I have said before, she is inviting you to believe her own writings are not true.

If you can get to the point that she loves and means it, despite her previous words that you were not meant to see ever, then ok. That will take some doing. And to be fair it should. It’s kinda like saying you should ignore a written confession with a fingerprint and signed in blood. But maybe you can get there as she spins her story and maybe it will feel very real. And maybe in her mind it will be real.

But that is the wrong issue. The issue is never about whether the torturer loves the tortured. The issue is not about what she felt or feels. The issue is about what you are prepared to live with. The issue is can you live with yourself. Only then can the discussion be about whether you can live with her.

I’m sure you get my point. If you leave it to her to convince you, you let her control everything. Her past narrative, her future narrative, your very soul and well being.

This is not the point to give her agency in your healing. One of the horrible truths in this ordeal is the person who hurt you the most is also The person you look to for succor. The person to stop the pain.

Why do men stay with a cheating wife and then come here and say in despair that they hate their lives. A common theme seems to be that they let other factors than their own needs control the outcome. In some cases it’s more palpable than others, but staying with a cheat because she loves you is not a recipe for saving the marriage.

Love yourself first. Honor your needs. Honor your basic beliefs and your inner core. Then if you are willing to give her a shot do it. But do it from clear eyed control and do not accept transparent lies that defy logic and her own writings. You must demand brutal truth. And she must demonstrate that despite that truth, she is changed, accepting that you know her for what she is. And that she is prepared to accept your outcome as you see fit.

Neither of you are there yet. You can’t be. You may get there, but proclamations of undying Never ending love from a person who four months ago was happily riding another at every opportunity And who freely admits would still be if not caught is not only counterproductive, it is downright insulting.

Physician, heal thyself is a saying from 2000 years ago. No one says you can do it alone, but you cannot cede the issue to her. She does not get to control your destiny by repeating platitudes about how much she loves you. That is irrelevant right now. It may not be later, but it is now. She owes you so much more than histrionics and swearing that you must not believe her “pack of lies” to her partner in Multi year polyamory.

this is great, I'm not going by her narrative and I have to be stupid to just take what she is saying. I do not want to be back her years later with regrets for not calling spade a spade or for not trying my best.

You will have time to assess, AH. I would recommend you don't take too long though. It can just burn up time without conclusion.

I finally separated from my XWW 4 years after DDay1. During that time there was promises, promises, promises but no delivery. She did 2 things. Got tested for STDs and a polygraph. Never got a timeline although promised continuously.

When we separated she was going to deliver and show we were meant to be together. She was going to complete a timeline. She was going to do many things. Didn't deliver on any. She provided some written stuff about how she was working on herself and reacted negatively when I was unimpressed and actually challenged her on some of her activities and thoughts.

It was 2.5 years after separating before we divorced. There was all that time before the divorce was final that it could have been not started or stopped. Words are very easy. Actions are much harder to maintain if they even start.

I caution you to not take as long as I did to get to a decision and to act on it. It can be death by a thousand cuts.

You, perhaps, like I suffer from a love bias and sunk cost fallacy. We've invested so much we can't let go. We get hooked on hopium. Quite addictive. Again, I suggest to you that you be very pragmatic about your life and future.

Your WW may be truly remorseful and do everything right (she sure hasn't yet and still may be blameshifting to some degree). It may be good enough for you to reconcile. That should be based on what is best for you. And only you.

It still might not be enough and doesn't need to be. It could be a dealbreaker. For me the odds of "happily ever after" seemed so low after 4 years it wasn't worth the risk. It was slowly and surely killing me. You may feel differently.

Be pragmatic. Pros and cons. I wish you clarity of thought and strength of mind.

staying with a cheat because she loves you is not a recipe for saving the marriage.

Love yourself first. Honor your needs. Honor your basic beliefs and your inner core.

Thank you so much for this. So insightful. I found this helpful to read this morning for my own situation!

I believe I am at this place and I hope AHGuy gets there too.

It really is about honoring your inner integrity as a man and letting your authentic masculinity have a say.

Whether she loves you is immaterial to the discussion and it really is insulting for her to claim her undying love for you now..

Love is a verb. “We are what we repeatedly do” as Aristotle said. If someone acts in repeatedly unloving ways for two years, well that’s who they are.

This is why I recommend reading No More Mr. Nice Guy and The Way of the Superior Man, AHGuy. These are about putting your mission amd your core as a man first.

The woman, any woman, always follows. She either follows or doesn’t. If she doesn’t, another woman can then come along and typically will come along. This makes women sound like replaceable cogs but that’s not what I’m saying. Nor am I saying you must be cold or selfish.

But after a WW dishonors you so deeply, she must come second to you and your needs and your life aspirations. She can be a part of your life but not the priority.

The other thing I want to say to you again is that you should be very careful not to fall prey to the sunk costs fallacy — and your last couple of statements seem perilously close.

Sunk costs is the idea that “well I’ve come this far and invested so much of my time and energy into this thing, I guess I should keep doing the same thing. Even if I know it’s broken and bad for me.”

It’s a fallacy because it isn’t true. It’s a mental trap. Your mind thinks somehow you can recover the costs. You can’t. Just because you’ve invested all that time and energy, that’s no reason to keep going with something that is bad for you with someone who carried out abusive and hateful actions toward you.

You will read a lot here about how “it wasn’t about you.” You will hear your WW say this, if she hasn’t already. This is really nonsense. They can tell themselves this lie and others can say it or type it repeatedly, but it has everything to do with you.

It sure has everything to do with you and your well-being now, doesn’t it?

This is about YOU and YOUR life, not her life, not your kids, not disappointing some faceless mass or your church community or a bunch of anonymous people on the internet or whatever is external to you

When you say things like splitting the custody of your kids, it strikes me you aren’t seeing that you will be in an empty nest very soon. And it strikes me you aren’t putting yourself first.

You have also made some allusions to a “cheaper to keep her” rationale related to your business. I think this rationale will grow pretty stale soon enough because it just isn’t a firm foundation for a satisfying monogamous relationship with a woman.

This is about living your best life authentically as a man. Please focus on that whatever you decide.

[This message edited by Thumos at 8:31 AM, September 29th (Tuesday)]

IMO, no. A wayward does not love you during their affair. Love is a verb. An action verb. There is nothing loving about cheating on the person you vowed to love,honor,and cherish. There is nothing loving about laughing at their spouse, with the AP. There is nothing loving about lying. There is nothing loving about exposing them to possible deadly stds. There is nothing loving about betrayal.

I believe this to be true of all cheaters. Not just your wife.

With your wife, the OM turned out to be a serial cheater,who told her she was a cheap piece of ass. So now she decided she loves you. I also think she believes if she can keep you in the marriage, then she somehow "saves face" with her family and children. I also think she i s very competitive

IMO, no. A wayward does not love you during their affair. Love is a verb. An action verb. There is nothing loving about cheating on the person you vowed to love,honor,and cherish. There is nothing loving about laughing at their spouse, with the AP. There is nothing loving about lying. There is nothing loving about exposing them to possible deadly stds. There is nothing loving about betrayal.

I believe this to be true of all cheaters. Not just your wife.

With your wife, the OM turned out to be a serial cheater,who told her she was a cheap piece of ass. So now she decided she loves you. I also think she believes if she can keep you in the marriage, then she somehow "saves face" with her family and children. I also think she is very competitive,and doesn't want to lose. That she sees this as a challenge.

This is why I recommend reading No More Mr. Nice Guy and The Way of the Superior Man, AHGuy. These are about putting your mission amd your core as a man first.

The woman, any woman, always follows. She either follows or doesn’t. If she doesn’t, another woman can then come along and typically will come along. This makes women sound like replaceable cogs but that’s not what I’m saying. Nor am I saying you must be cold or selfish.

But after a WW dishonors you so deeply, she must come second to you and your needs and your life aspirations. She can be a part of your life but not the priority.

No. While it's true that in R, there will be a period of time that the WS will be in the one-down, that period should be finite and limited to the WS achieving remediation of their broken character. The GOAL should be for both partners to regain equality within the relationship. For a healthy marriage, both partners will make the other a priority.

I read No More Mr. Nice Guy and I don't recall any suggestion that women should follow, like we're all a bunch of bobble-head dolls without minds of our own. And what kind of person would even want something so mindless and boring trailing in their wake?

After an infidelity, OF COURSE, the WS must follow... for awhile, until they make internal corrections. But after that, the goal is a return to the healthy dynamics of a normalized marriage.

You misunderstand and misinterpreted but that is OK. I didn’t say that was in No More Mr Nice Guy, nor did I say women must be bobble heads.

It’s more like this: after infidelity strips away the illusion that any woman is special, you focus on your inner integrity as a man and your core mission in life and what matters to you. If a woman wants to come along for the ride, great. She’s not obligated to do anything.

I would say the same thing to betrayed wives about men in their lives henceforth.

AHGuy can make up his own mind.

I do not want to be back her years later with regrets for not calling spade a spade or for not trying my best.

A statement that SeeYaIamOut knows only too well....

[This message edited by SlapNutsABingo at 9:46 AM, September 29th (Tuesday)]

Hey man, I wish you the best in this.

Just don't wait too long or get too comfortable in limbo.

I am one of those cautionary tales, 3.5 years of fake R. But my WW is not your WW, so I will just say that I hope and wish the best for you. Make sure that you consider some things that I wish I had-

Make IC an absolute requirement of staying married.

Get a prenup.

Save some money(in a separate account)and even maybe buy an investment property for a backup plan(I at least did that) so if things go south and you do end up D'ing it won't be as messy.(you'll both have somewhere to live)

I hope you get what you need and what you deserve after all of this.

[This message edited by Idiotmcstupid at 9:53 AM, September 29th, 2020 (Tuesday)]

It’s more like this: after infidelity strips away the illusion that any woman is special, you focus on your inner integrity as a man and your core mission in life and what matters to you. If a woman wants to come along for the ride, great.

How bleak and pessimistic... that after we've been cheated on no one is ever special again, but some poor unspecial soul can trail along or whatever.

People can (and do) heal from intimate betrayal. And while our naivety never returns to us, we live otherwise normal lives. The people we choose to share those lives with are still special to us, whether that be in a fully reconciled marriage with a former WS or in a new relationship. Just because you haven't seen it for yourself yet doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I think you just need to do what is best for you. The only advice or suggestion I would offer is to follow through with the divorce. If for nothing else other than to show the consequence of her actions. I would set the stage of the new relationship as she is just the girlfriend and only time will tell if you are ever interested in her being a wife again. Let her see these last couple years of betray wont go unchecked. She also then can see if she really is interested in making this right like she is saying she is.

If she cheats again it will be easier to walk away. If it just isn't working out it will be easier to walk away. Your building this new future for you. Not for her.

Good luck in what ever you decide to do.

You can think it’s bleak and pessimistic - I think it’s realistic, I enjoy the company of women, but there are hundreds of not thousands with whom I’m perfectly compatible and could be as happy with if not more than my WW. Nothing special about her at all.

I think AH will find the same about his WW. A very unspecial prize who brings a lot baggage and not much value add.

[This message edited by Thumos at 11:15 AM, September 29th (Tuesday)]

CT, I did not interpret what Thumos said that way at all. I'm not sure why you are extrapolating it to imply all of these misogynistic things when it did not.

Being a leader and taking control of your own life is good advice for anyone. In fact, I wish more women were given this exact advice to not prioritize men over themselves and allow them to control their life path because the pressure to do so is immense. A woman should not give up her career if she does not want to just to walk her path with a man and if he will not compromise in order to follow her, another man can and will come to follow along. There's nothing pessimistic about it. It simply acknowledges that there are literally BILLIONS of other adult men and women in the world so if this one isn't compatible with you, someone else will be.

If only women had or could create their own core missions....

*****

AH,

Some random thoughts:

One way or another, every BS needs to integrate being betrayed into their life. One way or another, every BS needs to get past being betrayed.

My reco is to clear your mind of all 'shoulds', figure out what one wants - and then to go for what one wants. The one caveat is this: if you want R, make damned sure your WS is a good candidate for R.

IMO, forgiving oneself is more important for a BS than forgiving the WS. Alas, not every BS does this.

Forgiving the WS is not necessary for R. The act of betrayal is unforgivable, and one forgives the person, not the act, but R is possible without forgiveness.

IMO, a WS who changes from betrayer to good partner is a better bet for future fidelity than the next random person a former BS may meet. Changing from betrayer to good partner, however, takes a lot of work.

It takes a lot more than adherence to the Bible for a WS to change from cheater to good partner. The Bible, after all, has many tales of dysfunction, which start pretty much as soon as human beings come on the scene.

R has to be negotiated. Both (all, in some cases) partners need to explicitly agree to meet requirements. Part of the agreement needs to be compatible visions of what the M will be.

To R, the BS has to heal the BS. The WS has to heal the WS. Together they heal/build/rebuild the M. Partners can support each other's healing, but each person has to - and can - do his own healing work, irrespective of whether or not one's partner heals.

It's very true that one partner (usually the WS) can slow down the other's healing, so each person needs to take responsibility for themself and be ready to call it quits, if one's partner keeps doing harm.

The commitment to R is not a commitment never to D. It's a commitment to heal and create an M that serves all partners to each partner's satisfaction. D remains eminently possible and ethical if one partner believes the process has broken down irrevocably, or if one partner's goals have changed and the other partner(s) won't sign on.

[This message edited by sisoon at 1:28 PM, September 29th (Tuesday)]

If only women had or could create their own core missions....

I would say the same thing to betrayed wives about men in their lives henceforth.

You’d have to be willfully obtuse to have missed that.

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:53 PM, September 29th (Tuesday)]

AH,

Ok, Ill take one more stab at this, as have others. It doesn't matter if you R or D, but what does matter is that you know what the hell you are reconciling or divorcing.

Why you are waiting to have her take a polygraph is beyond me. She offered it and there is no viable reason for her to renege at this point.

Forget the details of the sex. In two and a half years where she thought she was going to run off with him, you can pretty well assume she fulfilled and complied to any and all of his sexual proclivities, including posing naked in his bed.

What you really need to know is if this was truly her only affair, if she met with him after D Day before the phone conversation, if there were others smiling at you knowing what she did and if there were any other lies.

How can you possible make a decision either way wondering. Now i guess if it does not matter to you if she banged ten other guys in the four years prior to this affair, then maybe you can bypass knowing anything.

And if there is one thing that seems to be fairly consistant in the opinions you are getting, in six months you are still not going to have any fucking idea how this will turn out.

You just stated that you are aware you cannot believe everything or anything she tells you as fact. When do you make her prove it is fact?????

AH,

I've been following your journey this whole time and it looks like you're leaning on giving your WW and the possibility of R a chance. I wish you luck on this next part of your journey out of infidelity. I think its safe to say that you at least now know that your WW is no longer in contact and has broken it off with the AP.

Good luck with R. You may want to consider starting a thread over in that forum. You will find folks over there going thru the same things you will be moving forward.

You can think it’s bleak and pessimistic - I think it’s realistic, I enjoy the company of women, but there are hundreds of not thousands with whom I’m perfectly compatible and could be as happy with if not more than my WW. Nothing special about her at all.

I think AH will find the same about his WW. A very unspecial prize who brings a lot baggage and not much value add.

And again, I think you're wrong. You aren't working from the standpoint of successful R, nor from successful healing. If you were, you'd know that "authentic masculinity" has nothing whatsoever to do with those things, particularly when you're suggesting that "any" woman should be "following" because that's just not how a healthy relationship will work in the long term. You're not even in a position yet to talk about successful D because you haven't experienced that for yourself either.

AHGuy tells us that he's at about a 3 on a 1-10 scale from Divorce to Reconciliation. That decision is easier to make when he can get some education on what all might be involved in R too, not just D. Bitter projections regarding his WW's certain lack of sincerity can't be accurate... because you don't live in her head. You can't KNOW, and neither can anyone here KNOW, what her priorities are. AHGuy, on the other hand, has known her since she was a child. His are the boots on the ground. He's in the best position to say.

I'm not sure that your intent was misogynistic, but I'm not sure it wasn't either. I do think, as a slight t/j, that it might be worthwhile for you to reexamine some of your rationale.

Bitter projections regarding his WW's certain lack of sincerity can't be accurate... because you don't live in her head. You can't KNOW, and neither can anyone here KNOW, what her priorities are.

Bitter projections 😂 we are simply going off her words and actions, which have been quite consistent for years.

I think as a man I know more about a man’s lived experience. I’ll go with my perspective thanks. You can read into whatever you like, but I was pretty clear in what I said.

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:20 PM, September 29th (Tuesday)]

CT, I did not interpret what Thumos said that way at all. I'm not sure why you are extrapolating it to imply all of these misogynistic things when it did not.

Being a leader and taking control of your own life is good advice for anyone. In fact, I wish more women were given this exact advice to not prioritize men over themselves and allow them to control their life path because the pressure to do so is immense. A woman should not give up her career if she does not want to just to walk her path with a man and if he will not compromise in order to follow her, another man can and will come to follow along. There's nothing pessimistic about it. It simply acknowledges that there are literally BILLIONS of other adult men and women in the world so if this one isn't compatible with you, someone else will be.

Thanks neko. Common sense as usual. It is odd to see the defensive posture of so many when we’re just calling It as we see it and being careful to let AH make own decisions. Since AH is a man, myself and other men are speaking to him as a man. Pretty straightforward. I doubt we’d see the same bizarre reaction if women were speaking to a betrayed woman as a woman.

Yes my attempt at reconciliation hit the rocks and I’m headed for divorce. I’m pretty transparent about that, CT. Thanks for the timely reminder. Not sure why that is breaking news here.

AH good luck in all of this, and as I said we will continue to be here for you no matter what you decide. Hoping for the best for you.

You might really give some strong consideration to what Beyond Rage is talking about.

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:33 PM, September 29th (Tuesday)]