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I don't know if you went through the rest of the timeline with her yet, if not get it done, then sit her down and ask her all the questions, make sure you include time unaccounted for before her LTA, tell her everything she says/answers could be subject to the polygraph, then go ahead and schedule it (read online reviews to find the best one in your area), if she fails the test you may take the possibility of R off the table and move straight to D or keep trying for 6 months (maybe a year) until you think you have enough info to make a much better informed decision, if she passes with flying colors, then simply keep R on the table and again make a decision after 6 months or longer maybe a year or two (the length of her A).

BTW I don't remember if she's been tested for STDs yet, if not make sure she gets tested (you should too) and shows you the results, make sure she reads "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass and "How to Help your Spouse Heal from your A" by Linda McDonald, you can still download them for free. After that tell her to come up with her own ideas to start rebuilding trust and restore the M she destroyed, after you read hers add or your own as you see fit, we can help you with some of them that have stood the test of time.

...I will be giving her my list of "must do" things in order to consider the possibility of R, she didn't have anything on her list or can't thing of anything at that moment.

I disagree that your WW not having a list means that she "doesn't get it". In fact, I think it's more likely to be proof that she does. R is on YOUR terms, not hers. If she had a list of her own requirements for R, chances are that she'd be viewed as blame-shifting or minimizing. In the short run, abject capitulation is GOOD. It means she's willing to comply with whatever you need.

Now, of course, should you decide R is what you want, you'd start out from this "one-up" position with the intent to eventually normalize the marriage so that both partners are equal. It's later down the road, AFTER she's fully remediated her wayward tendencies, that you would work together to redesign the marriage so that it might incorporate new ideas, new lists, new ways of interacting. So, for right now, YOU set the terms and she obliges. Once she's recovered, she can make requests.

Regarding your list... it can be anything that makes you feel safe and supported. Typical items would be access to cell phone, email, apps, gps, etc. for periodic checking. The WS should understand that "checking" is opportunity. Every time a BS checks and finds nothing, a drop of trust is added to our empty trust bucket. Some BS do ask for a polygraph, others don't trust the technology. It varies, but it's doable. Some BS ask for a post-nup, but you two have already decided on a settlement, so there's that. Possibly, you could rework for more favorable terms if adultery is ever discovered again, but post-nups are notorious for not holding up in court. Another good boundary is "NO MORE LIES", not ever, not to anyone. This is a difficult one for a "people-pleaser" type to uphold, so I don't have a hard-out on it. Nevertheless, watching a fWS lie is too creepy to just ignore either so it requires a "come to Jesus" type conference at the minimum. IC and MC are good requirements, and in your case, some secular counseling might be considered.

AH, definitely should schedule the poly.

Another thing, have you considered just divorcing your wife no matter what? To then see how committed she is and how truthful she can be over time to see if she could be a safe partner but if this is even something you're interested in trying?

If you like what you're seeing from her and you want to attempt it than you can start dating her again (but having been divorced first).

Reason I ask this is she was so concerned about saving face with your kids, family, church and everyone else I wonder how committed she'd be if you'd follow through and just divorce her?

I know you said you'd give it 6 months, but what if you were to go ahead and file now (take reconciliation off the table right now) and divorce her and than sit back and watch how committed she is to proving to you who she says she is now BUT as a divorced woman.

Have you thought about this?

AH, I provided my list of must haves pretty early after DDay4, IIRC. It was verbal. It wasn't a long list but had a timeline, STD testing and a poly as part of it.

Nothing happened. I then provided it as a written list. Nothing happened, at least for a while. She eventually got tested for STDs. I found the poly examiner to use and told her she had to book the appointment. Feet dragging. Actions speak louder than words. The inaction was speaking very loudly.

Nothing else happened.

I then, after months, gave her the written list again. Nothing happened. Eventually the desire to see if R was even possible got snuffed out. I told her she had to prove to me that to try to reconciliation with her was the only rational decision I could make. More than a year later we separated.

She told me she was going to work on the few items left on my list of requirements. She hadn't delivered in the 4 years before separation but she was going to now. Her attitude and commitment wasn't on the list I had given her but it was in my head. She has never delivered the timeline. It was the biggy.

Enough time had passed. I got 4 years older. By that time I don't think R was going to be possible even to consider. Still, I wondered if she did the work would it be possible. She said she was going to do it even if we divorced. I'm 3 years since separating and 5 months since the divorce was finalized and still nothing.

Why did I go on so long?

I'm providing a warning based on my opinion. I don't think you should let this drag on too long. You've said 6 months. Maybe you give it a little longer. I say don't unless you see remarkable effort and progress. Progress that means something to you. Don't let that drag on either.

You're leaning to D, I think you've said. I don't know how you can reconcile from a LTA. You don't know if your WW's was 2 years or goes all the way back for 6 years and might involve other men. Polygraph. That is my opinion about R in that scenario and mine. But that is JMO. I just counsel to not let it drag on too long.

If you decide to try to R go all in. Commit to it. If it still doesn't work for you there is always D, still.

If she had a list of her own requirements for R

I meant suggestions for things she wants to do for AHGuy, but perhaps you are right and I’ll give her the benefit of the doubt that she wanted to allow him to say.

My spidey senses are telling me that the real reason beneath the reason why she didn’t talk about OM’s other affairs in your first meeting after you sent the email was because she was worried that you would ask her if she had other affairs.

I’d bet my life that her initial forays into that world started back six years ago. In my particular situation dealing with my WW’s EA, the first steps toward the EA happened about one month before I noticed some unusual changes in her. It was subtle so I didn’t think to much of it. Six months later I knew something was up and six months after that I finally got proof.

It took almost a year and lots of chaos to end it and another year to fess up to everything. So my initial gut check from three years earlier was spot on.

If you do the polygraph, you need to ask if this was her only affair. Most likely, it wasn’t.

Any new updates AHGuy? When is the polygraph?

Hope you are COVID free man. I'm thinking you are, and are out working your butt off to make up for all the lost hours.

But let us know.

How are you holding up?

Ahguy

Hope you are feeling optimistic and healthy today . You seem like a great guy and you clearly deserve alot better than the marriage and the person you settled for

However people do find serenity in all types of seemingly hopeless marriages if you truly have your eyes wide open and can forgive this person ; a person who tried her best to get rid of you in the cheapest most demeaning way possible ; maybe that is the right answer for you .

This isnt me being snarky there is alot people dont know about whats best for other people, Wish you the best with your reconciliation

Thank you all for checking on me, I have been extremely busy caching up on some work. I'm short handed and way behind. to answer some of your questions, I tested negative for COVID more than a week ago already and I'm back to work.

My WW and I are communicating only via messages and haven't seen her all week. I was suppose to draft a list of demands that i would need to even consider a chance of getting back together after the separation, but I didn't get to it yet. I asked her to make her own list she first said she didn't have any demands, but 2 days ago texted me that to her IC therapist and a pastor she can say that her only concern for now is to reestablish our marriage first. she said she wants to earn my trust again.

So no major update, there is a chance I see her this Wednesday, I haven't confirmed yet but she wants to talk face to face.

Trust first... then the marriage. She's got the cart before the horse. See? It is still about preserving her lifestyle and security, nothing about becoming a safe partner for you to even want to be in a friendship with, much less a marriage.

[This message edited by Westway at 8:50 AM, October 12th (Monday)]

About 10 pages ago there was a brief love language discussion. Yours was pegged as acts of service. From what I can tell, hers is quality time. In other words, her emotional needs are met by having someone around her paying attention. Or as I have more than once snarked, dancing attendance.

I pick this up from the various things you have said.

I know this stuff is real, and it is tough when your love languages are at cross purposes. Mine is words of affirmation, which I get like the occasional eye dropper of water while crossing the Sahara.

From what you have written, if I am right that quality time is what she craves, and I think words of affirmation are in there too, then she is not getting anything from you. And apparently the kids are also avoiding her.

So this has got to be driving her up the wall. I’m not suggesting anything here. Just putting it out there so you might recognize the dynamic. Put this in your knowledge bank.

she first said she didn't have any demands

Yeah she shouldn’t have a single demand after what she did. But she could at least put in a minimal effort to come up with a List of things she wants to do FOR YOU. A detailed lengthy specific list. But you shouldn’t have to tell her to do this. If she can’t show any creative intelligence here you don’t have much to work with.

I tend to look at what a WW has done to make changes so that they are not at risk of being a repeat cheater.

Some take the initiative and get IC, do further research, listen to podcasts, read books on affair recovery and share some learnings with the betrayed.

Others do the bare minimum and expect the betrayed to "get over it" and encourage rug sweeping by seeking out a support system to help them justify this action and behaviors.

And then there are those that don't do a damn thing other than complain about how they are being treated because they had a "accident" or made a slight "mistake" in the relationship.

It is up to the betrayed to decide where they see the WW in this recovery model and how much/how long they can tolerate this without any signs of the WW making changes to ensure they are no longer in danger of a repeat performance.

Having said this, where do you see your WW in relation to this simple model?

Did your Wednesday’s meeting went off well AHG? Hopefully there are no more new revelations for you and the WW is letting you heal. Are your children interacting with their mother again or they are estranged from her?

I hope you’re on your journey of recovery.

Just received the following email from my wife, I thought I can share with you to see what you all think.this came after I had a face to face meeting with her Wednesday. I explained what I needed from her but made sure that I didn't want her to think that we are getting back together after the separation. I told her that I wanted to be honest with her and as of right now I'm trusting that we can reconcile our marriage.

here is her email

Thank you for giving me this opportunity to show you my desire to earn your trust and rebuild our relationship. You asked why I would have such a desire and how you can trust that I really want you after all what I had done. All I can say is that I’m so broken inside, and broken people left unintended will destroy themselves and everyone around them. I understand your hesitance to trust me and your confusion, you have the right to be the most skeptical that’s why I deeply appreciate this opportunity.

What would I do?

Quick answer is anything, really I would do anything to rebuild our marriage. I realize now after deep thought and long soul searching that I’m selfish for wanting this. Yes, it is mainly about my needs because simply you and the kids are all I have, losing you would be a disaster I might never recover from. However, the same deep soul searching has taught me that real happiness is withing our own hand and we can flourish it not only by receiving but more by giving too. I want the opportunity to give you all the love and respect you deserve. I want us to be happy again.

I pledge to be an open book to you, I will not hide omit or deny you anything , I know it isn’t an easy task for someone weak like me, but I realize now that the truth is the way to go no matter what the consequences might be. I will give you access to all my devices and inform you of all my activities.

I will continue my individual therapy for as long as needed, and you can attend if this is something you would like to do. I have a long way to go to fix me so please be patient with me , I believe that I’m in the right path to rebuild myself to be an acceptable mother and partner.

I’m open to any suggestions from you on how to eliminate some of the triggers that remind us of my pass behavior and rightfully bother you like the tattoo the Lasik the car. Like I said to you before, I would do anything you just have to tell me because I do not want to ruin this opportunity. I have already cut out everyone that was involve in my affair. I want to assure you the affair is forever in the past.

I’m willing to give you any legal and financial leverage you may need to feel safe that no matter what happens, I will never go after your business and assets. There is not a peace a paper you give me that would not sign. This sounds crazy but I trust that you will never hurt me or hurt our kids, and I understand that you are looking for acts not words to feel safe. So I’m opento anything I can do to back up what I’m saying.

What I’m giving you now might not be to your satisfaction, but keep in mind that I’m new to this , all I can tell you is that I’m trying my best to educate my self on how to fix this. I wish you can hold my hand and walk me to the other side of this ordeal. I only have till March 26th to prove myself and boy isn’t that approaching too fast.

Finally, although you have justifiable doubts, I’m still going to say it anyway, I love you and always will.

post nup's are not enforceable in court. judge will not let a wife

become destitute or give up what she is entitled to.

I didn't want her to think that we are getting back together after the separation. I told her that I wanted to be honest with her and as of right now I'm trusting that we can reconcile our marriage.

makes no sense. in one breath you say we will not get back

together and we can recover our marriage.

is your goal to be separated from your WW for six months?

recovery cannot happen while you are apart for that much

time.

where is your WW living now?

how does your mind handle not being able to verify what

your WW is doing being that you are separated?

this does nothing to repair the broken trust.

how is WW supporting herself now?

right now I'm trusting that we can reconcile our marriage

Hi Ah,

If this is what you want then I hope that it works for you. I'm going to second what oldtruck says here and that is that if you want to try to reconcile then I think you have to go all in and try. Right now with her not at home and you not seeing her day to day you really have no idea what she's doing or whether the two of you can work this out. If you want to try this then I think she needs to come home and you try. You don't have to completely reestablish your marriage, she doesn't have to be in the same bed for example, but I think you should be in the same house and interacting. In 6 months of this separation I don't see how you can have any sense of whether you can still be together and trust her. I think I'd do the poly and if that comes out okay then I'd have her come home.

You asked why I would have such a desire and how you can trust that I really want you after all what I had done. All I can say is that I’m so broken inside, and broken people left unintended will destroy themselves and everyone around them.

All in all, it's a pretty good response. She capitulates completely to allow YOU to set the parameters for R. This is a necessary component for eventual success. R doesn't work when the WS is attempting to drive it. The BS need to be in control as the aggrieved party. Think of it this way, a BS is robbed of agency and this agency must be returned in full. I think you might be surprised at how many WS attempt to bargain at this stage, to re-litigate marital problems or to set new standards. I don't see any of that here, and that's a good thing.

This bit above is lacks the depth of analysis, and while I'm not concerned about it this early in the process, she eventually needs to elaborate. People can't remediate behaviors they don't understand. She needs to find out what went wrong in her character which allowed her to say "yes" to adultery and subterfuge. This is a more difficult and introspective thing than most people realize... and it takes TIME in therapy to uncover. Some therapists don't dig far enough. They'll stop at "midlife crisis" or "empty nesting" or "fear of abandonment". But she needs to dig further into her own values system.

Her core values were NOT what either of you thought they were. She didn't honor those values and she would have if they were REAL. What does she truly believe about fidelity? Does she obey rules just to stay out of trouble, or does she set her own? When we set our own, those are boundaries. No one makes us adhere to them. We make them ourselves to protect what we value.

Character >>> Values/Beliefs >>> Boundaries

ie. "I believe in Fidelity so I build strict boundaries around it. When interlopers come along, I make distance." Values statement becomes surrounded by impenetrable boundary.

Your WW needs to really THINK about what she believes. She needs to define her REAL core values. It's easy to say, "I believe in honesty" or "I believe in fidelity". But when push comes to shove, is that the truth or are some of us deluding ourselves? "My word is my bond", but is it really? If not, why not? What's gone off in our values system when that's NOT the real truth? How are we deluding ourselves when we're NOT upholding the things we say we honor?

You begin to see that there's a lot of work involved in tearing down to the issues an then building back up to good character. It's not an overnight process, nor one which can be safely avoided. When your WW asks for patience, it's a request you'll need to consider if R is a possibility. And I do think it's worthwhile to follow her progress closely if R is on the table. You have a vested interest at that point.