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One additional thing: in reply to you from Oct. 26 earlier this week, I noted that it sounded like your WW's therapist was supplying your WW with the deeply wrong "little lost girl in the woods" narrative many of us have become familiar with in our experiences.

This lets women off the hook (and it's actually astounding how often one reads people here on SI supplying this false narrative as well).

The basic outlines of the narrative are fairy tale in nature: An innocent wide eyed girl picking daisies wanders unwittingly into a deep dark wood, and finds herself increasingly confused and unable to retrace her steps. Then a wolf comes into the story to prey on her. She succumbs to the wolf's tricks and becomes enthralled to him. Even her attempts to break free from his hypnotizing powers are in vain and she keeps returning to the wolf deep in the wood.

Of course, you can see how insulting this is to both men and women. It robs adult women of their agency and pretends they are incapable of making good moral decisions. And it pretends that the only reason a woman would be unfaithful is because she was mesmerized by a trickster.

Does your WW's decision to ditch this counselor at least partially confirm my suspicions on that as well? Your wife is smart enough (and certainly worldly enough) to understand she's a middle-aged adult making her own decisions.

I don't want to read too much into this, but it would seem she realized her counselor was full of shit.

[This message edited by Thumos at 9:36 AM, October 30th (Friday)]

She told her submitting to my demands to R at this moment without working on our marriages issue prior to her A would be an abuse to her. she advised her to not work on R and focus on herself instead.

There’s nothing wrong with working on marriage issues as long as it’s understood that marriage issues and Infidelity are completely separate issues.

It’s like saying “the AC broke in our house and it’s due to Bob’s nasty habit of buying too many bananas at the grocery. You can’t fix the AC issue without fixing the bananas buying problem, that would be abusing the AC unit!”

I think the part that is so gobsmacking and galling is that the therapist was holding the position that it would be "abuse" towards the WW to work on the difficult task of R without addressing the "issues" in the marriage.

You can definitely work on both, but some fairly hard non-negotiables from the WS must come first and foremost.

The usual healthy pattern is: DISCLOSURE->REBUILD TRUST->HEALING->RECOVERY->RECONCILIATION

Every single marriage has "issues" but you can see how disruptive it would be to put the cart before the horse of reconciliation work.

Whatever other issues the marriage may have had - its all a moot point because unless she ACEs reconciliation and unless you can ACE forgiveness there will be no marriage and no marriage issues to discuss .

This is a bad story and most people might even say an irredeemable story , that being said we dont know her good attributes and we dont know the extent of your forgiveness abilities either . But you should keep all of that in mind

You shouldnt feel that if you cant race to decide that you are making a mistake . There is alot to be said for making a deliberate and fully thought through decision whether that is D Or R

Give yourself plenty of time to understand the true depth of your positive and negative emotions and in the meanwhile just take care of yourself with food exercise prayer and time spent with loved ones..

She (therapist?) told her submitting to my demands to R at this moment without working on our marriages issue prior to her A would be an abuse to her(WW?). she advised her to not work on R and focus on herself instead. maybe this had something to do with my mood swings.

Assuming everything you wrote was not some kind of misunderstanding by your WW, I believe that your WW is making the right decision by dumping this counselor.

Your "demands to R" are not that at all. They are your NEEDS in order to begin to try to re-establish trust with your WW. This is a bare minimum required so that you two can try to R together. R will take work from both parties, but YOU don't have to re-establish trust with your WW.

AHGuy, don't beat yourself up. Overall, you've been doing very well. So you had a few setbacks. that happens to almost all of us. Keep working on yourself and they will be fewer and farther between.

Yet another shitty therapist... at least as it pertains to infidelity, truth, loyalty and accountability.

This is why I have been arguing against the chorus of "get into IC!" for cheaters.

Far too many therapists will take what I consider to be an amoral approach to relatively straightforward problematic behaviors such as lying and cheating. Many tend to focus on not "judging oneself", not "feeling bad", being "good to yourself", "GIRLPOWER!", somehow feeling they need to protect the assailant from the injured party, that disclosing the whole unvarnished truth is not necessary for either the betrayed spouse/cheater, that cutting off the affair is a "process" and so much other bullshit.

We should always remember that the therapist of the cheater is there for the cheater, not the betrayed spouse.

Also that therapy is a business that requires repeat customers, and people who lie to themselves or others are unlikely to come back to a therapist who holds them accountable for lies and bullshit.

***

Having said that, it sure sounds like your wife made the right choice!! (For once) And that is positive, whether or not it means anything to your reconciliation.

People who cheat, lie, and betray need to un-learn these behaviors because they leave untold lives they have damaged in their wake.

On the other hand, we don't know how your wife set it up with the therapist. She may have opened with the "woe is me, I learned my lesson, AHguy should give me another chance" gambit, and then slowly learned that that dog won't hunt.

Whatever the case is, good for Mrs. AHguy this time around. The only thing that would make it better would be if she wrote a note to the therapist describing why she left and the wrong-headedness of the "protect the cheater" approach.

I wish you better days ahead AHguy.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 5:48 PM, October 30th (Friday)]

I went to therapy in the aftermath of my XW cheating. It helped me. But, my therapist told me that counseling for a cheater was a waste of time.

We had gone as a couple to a different therapist before this guy. He insisted we never talk about the cheating. He wanted me to list, each day, all the things my XW did for me and the family( believe me, it was a short list, as her cheating occupied most of her time). Then, I was to acknowledge and thank her for it.

I refused to go after that one session.

This is why I have been arguing against the chorus of "get into IC!" for cheaters.

Far too many therapists will take what I consider to be an amoral approach to relatively straightforward problematic behaviors such as lying and cheating.

Agreed which is why I keep recommending a betrayal trauma specialist

I think the idea of therapy for the cheater is to help the cheater understand what they want . Sometimes cheaters are just in a lying loop and so out of their minds they dont even know what they want

Its not a terrible outcome for the cheater to just gain clarity and pull the plug, thats alot better than staying in fugue and giving the BS false hope .

As for trying to tell the BS “ my therapist says this is your fault “ the BS needs to counter that with “ you can get another therapist or I can get a lawyer because thats unacceptable to me “

I agree with whats been said above , Mrs AH has finally made the right call on at least one thing .

Stinger

I went to therapy in the aftermath of my XW cheating. It helped me. But, my therapist told me that counseling for a cheater was a waste of time.

I believe this is true most of the time because the desire to change to be loyal, empathetic, and truthful must come from the cheater. A therapist is not going to instill it in them even if the therapist is fantastic.

We had gone as a couple to a different therapist before this guy. He insisted we never talk about the cheating. He wanted me to list, each day, all the things my XW did for me and the family( believe me, it was a short list, as her cheating occupied most of her time). Then, I was to acknowledge and thank her for it.

I refused to go after that one session.

I have had similar experiences and heard and read so many as well.

Thumos

Agreed which is why I keep recommending a betrayal trauma specialist

I have no experience with Betrayal Trauma Specialists, but I assume they are better than the average therapist when it comes to cheaters.

Still the desire to be better must be the cheater's goal no matter the person they are working with.

Siracha

I think the idea of therapy for the cheater is to help the cheater understand what they want . Sometimes cheaters are just in a lying loop and so out of their minds they dont even know what they want

Its not a terrible outcome for the cheater to just gain clarity and pull the plug, thats alot better than staying in fugue and giving the BS false hope .

I think that requires a good therapist - different from what Mrs. AHguy had + a cheater who wants more than to "get out of trouble".

As for trying to tell the BS “ my therapist says this is your fault “ the BS needs to counter that with “ you can get another therapist or I can get a lawyer because thats unacceptable to me “

Most betrayed spouses are reeling and not working with this kind of clarity. Too often, the hits keep on coming. Mind games and gaslighting from a cheater.

Then this professional counselor who is supposed to help you starts fucking

with your mind, telling you that you were part of the betrayal, that you don't need to know the truth, the cheater is really sorry now but that's all you can ask for, etc.

That kind of conviction kind of a tall order for an early-stage betrayed spouse.

Slight Tj

Unfortunately I have come across more than my fare share of inadequate therapists.

Several were of the opinion that I as a BS was somehow directly accountable for the behavior and actions of my WS. It took me a long time to come to my senses on this. Most of these therapists can and do use strategies that combine FOO issues with codependency and possible personality disorders to confuse the average BS who stumbles into therapy with a broken heart and a mind that is going in circles.

I managed by shear luck to get into the office of a infidelity trauma specialist.

He told me that in the future, it would be best if I would interview therapists to ensure that they had the required experience to handle infidelity trauma. As he was close to retirement, he gave me some pointers to look for.

Most therapists take a training course or two, usually associated with a conference on infidelity trauma. They may even get some sort of a certificate to hang on the wall to indicate they have attended such a course. It is like a child getting a "participation" award.

It is unlikely that a therapist who attended a course for a few hours would have the required experience to deal with this.

One therapist whom I interviewed seemed to think that because he was once a wayward spouse, that he had "special qualifications" and would be a good fit for my particular concerns.

The bottom line is you are paying for this service, ensure you are getting the best for your money.

end Tj

Everyone is assuming that she is telling the truth.

Such a good point. Once again we’ve all fallen into the trap of believing the hollow words of a proven liar.

Everyone is assuming that she is telling the truth.

I'm not assuming any such thing. In fact since the first thread I've been basically telling AHguy that if she says it is sunny to get his umbrella.

However, if this is the same therapist who helped her cook up the whole "people pleaser" bullshit excuse, this further bullshit is right in line with that nonsense.

Why did she really leave the therapist? Beats me.

But getting away from shitty rugsweeping therapists is always a good decision, and it may be the first good decision Mrs. AHguy has made, in my estimation.

But that doesn't mean she won't go the wrong way after this.

AH. Let yourself feel your various emotions.

For a successful reconciliation you need the truth.

Lies and secrets are toxic/poisonous.

Sit your wife down and tell her firmly, that you need the full truth of her 5 years of behaviour as a social butterfly (symbolic butterfly tattoo) - discovering herself, with toxic friends and their influences. Hold her feet to the flames.

Tell her that all her responses will be subject to a polygraph test and/or voice lie detector test!!

You need to know this brother. Make her accountable. A good therapist would confront and make her accountable. Most clients hate this.

God bless you and your family.

Cheers

Ron

[This message edited by ronjs at 12:54 AM, October 31st (Saturday)]

Some people here may not like this, but here goes.

As a therapist, it is our job to work for the client. Not the BS. AHguy, if your wife was to come sit in my office, my goal would be to help her get what she wants. And then help her process the paths she is going to have to take to get her to that point.

Here is my experience. I am a professional therapist. My ex wife is also a therapist. She went to a new IC after Dday and trickle truth. (all the tactics right out of the cheaters playbook). I met with the new therapist because i wanted a say in who she met with. I met with her a few times and she seemed like she would hold ex wife feet to the fire.

After about 6 months of meeting with this therapist I began learning that my ex wife was using this time to complain about me and how awful I was being to her. (ex wife playing the victim in IC) I found all this through her journal, which was mainly complaining about me. At one point in the journal she wrote that the therapist agreed with her that I was showing many traits of boderline personality disorder. I stressed over this for weeks and really examined myself because I am an introspective person.

I came to this conclusion about the therapist.

1. If the new therapist was starting to join my ex wife commentary, then she was not holding her to the fire. (of course I am acting a little weird at times, my ex wife had just destroyed my whole life)

2. The therapist was not very experienced herself and had forgotten what I think the most important rule in therapy is. (work for the client)

If my ex wife spent most of the session complaining about me and how horrible I was. The therapist should have constantly come back at here with "if he is so terrible, why do you want to stay married to him?"

That is a question to help the client work through whatever shit she is going through. Now doing this, there is a great risk of losing the person as a client if they are confronted. Many therapist end up joining the client's commentary for many different reasons. I do it with teens because they need to feel like I am on their side.

Final point is, it is really on the client to do the real work. Many people can go through IC and never really dig down to the real issues because it is too difficult for them.

Anyway, as I write this my head is going in so many different directions about my own experience and trauma and about all the different tactics therapist use to try and help clients.

hope all this helps someone

As a therapist, it is our job to work for the client. Not the BS.

Yeah, I don't like that.

I understand "getting on the client's side" in the case of an anxious teen or something.

But when dealing with a WS who has committed a moral transgression known in every human culture, past and present as transgressive and toxic?

The amoral positioning and equivocations of the therapeutic community as regards infidelity is probably one reason we're in the state we're in the Western world. It's a crisis and we should be more upfront about acknowledging this.

I don't say the only reason, and there are plenty of other factors at work here.

But the therapeutic community, in my opinion, must take a look in the mirror and deal with its failures the past half century. For one thing, spending an entire century perpetrating what has now been proven to be pseudoscience quackery (psychoanalysis). For another, talk therapy has now been shown with metadata and other research to have limited utility at best.

[This message edited by Thumos at 9:04 AM, October 31st (Saturday)]

Ichthus

Some people here may not like this, but here goes.

As a therapist, it is our job to work for the client. Not the BS. AHguy, if your wife was to come sit in my office, my goal would be to help her get what she wants. And then help her process the paths she is going to have to take to get her to that point.

Here is my experience. I am a professional therapist. My ex wife is also a therapist. She went to a new IC after Dday and trickle truth. (all the tactics right out of the cheaters playbook). I met with the new therapist because i wanted a say in who she met with. I met with her a few times and she seemed like she would hold ex wife feet to the fire.

After about 6 months of meeting with this therapist I began learning that my ex wife was using this time to complain about me and how awful I was being to her. (ex wife playing the victim in IC) I found all this through her journal, which was mainly complaining about me. At one point in the journal she wrote that the therapist agreed with her that I was showing many traits of boderline personality disorder. I stressed over this for weeks and really examined myself because I am an introspective person.

I came to this conclusion about the therapist.

1. If the new therapist was starting to join my ex wife commentary, then she was not holding her to the fire. (of course I am acting a little weird at times, my ex wife had just destroyed my whole life)

2. The therapist was not very experienced herself and had forgotten what I think the most important rule in therapy is. (work for the client)

If my ex wife spent most of the session complaining about me and how horrible I was. The therapist should have constantly come back at here with "if he is so terrible, why do you want to stay married to him?"

That is a question to help the client work through whatever shit she is going through. Now doing this, there is a great risk of losing the person as a client if they are confronted. Many therapist end up joining the client's commentary for many different reasons. I do it with teens because they need to feel like I am on their side.

Final point is, it is really on the client to do the real work. Many people can go through IC and never really dig down to the real issues because it is too difficult for them.

Anyway, as I write this my head is going in so many different directions about my own experience and trauma and about all the different tactics therapist use to try and help clients.

hope all this helps someone

Ichthus - I appreciate your point of view as a therapist, and frankly, it backs up what I have been saying/arguing about the likelihood of a therapist "snapping a cheater into decency" and helping to heal the betrayed spouse from the wounds inflicted upon them by the cheater.

I bolded some points you made because I think they should be understood by betrayed spouses, including AHguy, though honestly the entire post you wrote should be eye-opening to those who think their cheating spouse is going to walk into a therapists' office and all of a sudden the therapist is going to "turn them around" somehow.

Not gonna happen unless the cheater is completely dedicated to turning themselves around.

***

The point you articulated which I have been trying to make for a while, but you crystalized perfectly, was the therapist not confronting the client because they want the client to feel like the therapist is "on their side".

I have directly observed this phenomenon with therapists when dealing with cheaters, and I don't think it is in any way limited to working with teenagers. And of course if the delicate little flower ego of a cheater is confronted by a therapist, the cheater runs for the hills and the therapist loses the client.

So the therapist is counter-motivated to actually dealing out the "tough love" that is necessary.

***

And finally, your wife was a therapist, and also a trickle-truthing, excuse-making, manipulating cheater. Everyone should understand that they don't know the "moral makeup" of any therapist. You cannot rely on them to have the point of view of the betrayed spouse. They might feel like cheating is okay, or a understandable response to something the betrayed spouse did or didn't do.

It all comes down to what is inside of the person.

My therapist, the guy Insaw in the aftermath, was a really good guy, a former college athlete, so we hit it off.

Essentially, we just went over some of the crazy, abusive stuff my XW had done throughout the years.

It was a chance for me to disclose a lot of the stuff she had done. Hearing myself describe it( and, it was pretty extreme stuff, but I won't bore you), and discussing it crystallized what I knew at heart: she was an abusive asshole.

He, also, told me that a large part of his practice dealt with couples where one had cheated. He wasxquite candid, disclosing something that, ostensibly, was against his interest.

He said that at most 10% stay together after infidelity. He seemed pretty competent, well established etc. Apparently, he felt the damage was repairable most of the time.

This is contrary to the stats often cited in books and ,especially, sites and programs geared toward selling reconciliation services. Those stats, like 80% staying together, seem very inflated to me.

Irreparable.