SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

MG

Ill take ah s word for it Of course its possible and i hope other people who believe in her love will chime in

However the point I was trying to make is that strongly wanting to stay married does not always equal love and in this case its easier to make the case that she is driven by secondary gain

Personally i dont think its all that easy for a woman in her age group to find a husband financially equivalent to the one she found when she was both good looking and young .

In most cases a person like her would find someone who is a significant economic step down ... at every step she has proven herself to be materialistic and gain driven so that would probably not work for her . I dont see her being the “having sex with struggling artists” type

[This message edited by siracha at 12:57 PM, October 22nd (Thursday)]

She seems to be going through a whole lot to try and hang on to someone she doesn't love. From AHguys's description she's an attractive woman, so she wouldn't have trouble finding another man.

People like AHguy's wife understand love differently from others.

In my opinion love is both an inward and outward facing emotion, and how that is manifested is different for cheaters than people who behave with loyalty and personal honor.

I find that "cheater-love" is mostly inwardly focused and also intermittent.

It appears to be mostly based on some current need. They don't tend to care about how they make the person they love feel unless it is their "current love" and even then it tends to be manipulative and transactional.

Their behavior toward the person that they "love" is about meeting a selfish need rather than something healthy.

It's all kind of ambiguous.

Your statement assume rational thinking from AHguy's wife. Cheaters are very irrational. Everything we know about AHguy's wife is that she is calculating yet simultaneously irrational. She is hanging on to the love she knows and sqaundered/destroyed rather than the fantasy love that blew up in her face.

However, if AHguy cuts her loose, you can bet that she will find herself another "love" sooner rather than later.

AH,

What does your wife's church teach regarding divorce and remarriage? I know some Christian groups teach that adultery is the only justified reason for divorce, and that a person who has been divorced for committing adultery would be sinning if they remarried.

I'm not going to speculate about whether your wife loves you or not, but the above thought hit me when the question of why she would stay if she didn't really want to came up.

Good luck brother.

Powerful statement, faithfulman.

I think the truest statement my XWW said was that she didn't love me and didn't think she ever did. That was shortly after the ILYBIANILWY. I wasn't smart enough to ask who she did love when she wasn't in love with me. Worse, I was determined to make love me. I didn't know then I was in a contest with one of her COW who she was never going to leave me for.

About 3 months before she finally left (I had been pushing her for a year to GTFO) I asked her if she loved me. She said "no". Why stay if she didn't love me. Perhaps a week later I asked her again and same answer. A week later, same thing.

A week later I asked again and she said she loved me but it was different than how I loved her. I told her that was a lie because if she thought that the first 3 times she would have said that yes she did love me.

After we separated for a while and even close to D she insists now that she loves me (not recently).

I think faithfulman pretty much nailed it. I think the crush, in love, lurve, etc. are very surface based on feelings and maybe lust. Lust in my XWW's case anyway. He made her horny. Mature love is much deeper without getting into the Greek words for different types of love. Mature is a decision and has consistent, long term actions. It is willing to take a bullet, protect with life, open up and be transparent and vulnerable, etc. In my very biased opinion, I don't think WSs have that kind of love. I don't think they had it before adultery.

can you explain why she wouldn't just leave if she doesn't love me

Almost every betrayed spouse asks this question, but I can assure you the answer is not always (or even typically) "because they love you."

My therapist had a profound insight. He said every betrayed spouse looks at their unfaithful spouse in confusion and essentially is asking over and over with their eyes, "Why are you still here?"

Assuming it is because she loves you does yourself no favors. It may be. It may not be. I agree with siracha. Your WW carried out a series of deeply unloving actions for more than 700 days (at a minimum) but was already checked out of her love for you for years before that.

So whether she defines her feelings for you as "love" is somewhat irrevelant. The fact is, love is a verb. Love is an action. Unloving actions are the opposite of love.

“Love” comes in many varieties.

IMO, a cheaters concept (and application) of love, differs greatly from the view of love held by non-cheaters.

Two different languages being spoken. Like a Tiger interacting with a snake. Roars and hissing. Lots of flinching and jerky movements.

Great insights here , i didn't really see it at first but yes i was a little too self referential : Im saying I couldn't possibly do these particular heinous things to someone I loved .

Like Thumos I dont believe you can love someone without your actions being loving or at the very least respectful

She is pretty broken and who knows if she can ever “love” someone enough to not cheat not hurt not disappoint them, maybe this is infact her even when she is “in love “

I would say you deserve better in either case. You deserve Love not “love”

[This message edited by siracha at 4:36 PM, October 22nd (Thursday)]

If WS's were incapable of love and recovery, there wouldn't be ANY truly reconciled marriages. People who get fucked up and selfish in their mindset don't necessarily have to stay that way. Some WS's are disordered and can't see any wrong in themselves, but not all. The idea that no relationship can recover after infidelity is just bullshit and has nothing to do with reality, because in the real world there are LOTS of people who have recovered and are doing fine.

People who get fucked up and selfish in their mindset don't necessarily have to stay that way. Some WS's are disordered and can't see any wrong in themselves, but not all. The idea that no relationship can recover after infidelity is just bullshit and has nothing to do with reality, because in the real world there are LOTS of people who have recovered and are doing fine.

Of course this is true.

It's also true that AHGuy's WW acted out deeply unloving actions with intention for a long time.

That must be reckoned with. I'm reminded of Bonhoeffer's distinction between cheap grace and costly grace.

It's healthy for AHGuy to remain cautious about his WW's sudden flip from deeply disrespectful unloving actions carried out consistently over an extended length of many moons to a sudden lurching vow that she always loved him throughout all of the 700+ days of her essentially hateful behavior.

One is entitled in such an abusive scenario to maintain healthy skepticism. One should.

People can certainly recover from being cheaters and years later evolve to be safe partners full of genuine love and respect

However the waywards insight level contempt level length of time in deceit Is not the same in every case, surely not every wayward has it in them to evolve .

Yes i sincerely believe she does not love you , but again I dont know her so factor that in . My opinion is based on

1. Length of her affair

2. Humiliation she accepted towards you

3. Her response when her personal trainer was inappropriate with her . She went to the man she loved and trusted . That man was not her husband of more than 20 years

decades on infidelity forums has given me a large sample of

facts to draw from.

1 average length of affairs is 2 years.

EDIT poor choice of words,

New and improved:

1 Most affairs end own their own the end of the 2nd year.

2 all WW and WH humiliate and go along with humiliation of

their BS. it is part of the building of the false narration to

justify justify the affair. there have been few exceptions

where the WS and AP refuse to talk about their BS. This

trash talking is about the ego stroking to avoid feeling guilt

during their affair.

3 WW shut out their BH during their affair. WW do this to not

betray, cheat, on their AP. so normal for the WW to tell her

main love interest, the OM, that the trainer is hitting on her.

If WS could not even to pretend their false justifications

most affairs would not start or burnout after a very short

duration.

Future Faking, is very much part of the affair along with the

false justification. FF is where the WS and the AP talk

about how they are going to eventually divorce their BS's

and ride off happily into the sunset.

until one off the BS's catch their WS and then that WS

throws their AP under the 18 wheel truck.

this was a run of the mill PA following normal PA behavior.

except this AP had some extra money to throw around.

[This message edited by oldtruck at 12:36 PM, October 23rd (Friday)]

Old truck

Thanks thats very interesting , i would have thought her behavior was bottom 30 percentile and from what i have read only the top 20 th percentile has a real shot at long term happiness

I think you are seeing her behavior as 50 th percentile ? Where do you think you have to be to have a real shot at long term happiness ?

( ofcourse people arent stats but stats are good indicators)

[This message edited by siracha at 7:33 PM, October 22nd (Thursday)]

Everything I’ve read indicates most affairs last 3-6 mos. 6 mos is usually the longest edge of most affairs.

If longer than a year you’ve got a real shit show on your hands. Longer than 18 mos and it’s a long term affair with much more radioactive toxicity.

I've read on some post that the WS basically gone on a long vacation to get away from everything and some also had a friend to tag along for parts of it. WS did not stay home which made WS very miserable, depressed. The WS would go to places where WS always wanted to go, toured the country, do things WS always wanted to do but didn't, and pretty much stayed out of contact during that time. Maybe AHGuy need to disappear from the house, family, work, WIFE to clear his head.

To me an LTA is 1 year or longer, and I would place the average A somewhere between 5-8 months, but this is just a guestimate and not based on any survey. A two year LTA is not uncommon but I would be surprised if it was the "average" duration of As, I would think 2 years may be the "average" duration of LTAs though.

It's also true that AHGuy's WW acted out deeply unloving actions with intention for a long time.

That must be reckoned with. I'm reminded of Bonhoeffer's distinction between cheap grace and costly grace.

It's healthy for AHGuy to remain cautious about his WW's sudden flip from deeply disrespectful unloving actions carried out consistently over an extended length of many moons to a sudden lurching vow that she always loved him throughout all of the 700+ days of her essentially hateful behavior.

This is no different than anyone else's deeply repentant WS. It's NOT uncommon for them to snap back into reality like an overstretched rubber band, and to insist otherwise defies the anecdotal evidence of many on this board, myself included.

People do shitty things when they're cheating. That's the NORM. It's not uncommon and it's not unrecoverable.

AH

so you believe that she doesn't love me but she is just clinging to our marriage, right?

can you explain more why you believe that?

can you explain why she wouldn't just leave if she doesn't love me, knowing that financially she will be more than fine

It's not about the money.

there is nothing to hide because everyone knows about her A and I mean everyone family, friends kids coworkers, even our neighbors know.

I do think she is still hiding from the truth that she wasn't a bad person and if she can get you to stay with her, she will one day not have the stigma of her actions so brazen in her face.

she insists that she's always loved me and never thought about leaving and that she was just fucked up in her head berrying her self and her own values before betraying me

I seem to remember she was planning to leave you after your son was out of high school. She had convinced her self that all her problems were because of you and that all she needed to do was D you and go off with the AP. Being a church lady she new deep down in side this was wrong but this doesn't mean she loved you when she was having these feelings. Remember she was able suppress these feelings and keep going back to him.

How is this possible?

She was not happy/content with her life. She was not happy/content with her body image so she worked on her self and changed even though you liked the "old body image" witch made you an opponent to her goals "the enemy. She didn't feel the love were speaking so she the ought you weren't speaking love to her.

I think Sriracha has it right when he said,

"However i do know what its like to try and cling to a marriage because you just don't know what else to do"

She doesn't know what else to do. She is still all about her.

The more time that elapses the more she will win you over. You said it your self, you love her still. I don't really think much of counselling to make her "safe again" for you. Five counsellors and hundreds of dollars later what I found is that it just bought time for her to so got to the place were I could just live with the fact that it will never be equal.

ChamomileTea said it before you just have to let her have this inequality if you stay.

ChamomileTea also said

"because in the real world there are LOTS of people who have recovered and are doing fine."

AH is doing just fine good enough for you?

I thought so but it has been hard. Just last week I found out she also has HPV. Later this month she will be checked for cancer. I love her and I still want her, and want her to be healthy. She says she didn't know she had it. Good thing I went to the Dr with her and asked. Then I wonder how much trickle truth can one person dish out?

You ask WHY IMHO you will never get the answer that will satisfy you because you can't understand how she could be so selfish.

Well it's 5:33 in the morning and it was another sleepless night for me. Do what's best for you.

I support you.

hundreds of dollars later

More like thousands of dollars.

People do shitty things when they're cheating.

Yes they do and there are consequences for transgressions they know are against the basic moral law.

Wise men and women build up their homes, but the foolish man or woman tears down their house with their own hands.

This is no different than anyone else's deeply repentant WS.

I have yet to see any substantive evidence for deep repentance - otherwise known as metanoia.