SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Blackraven: you should realise that most of the out-of-context quotes you're lifting (and stitching together into a grossly false caricature -- why I may add?) were posted shortly after I found out, during a time I had symptoms of PTSD and, was in no fit state to reason. My wife's behaviour is typical; my own behaviour is atypical and, born of a situation I've been thrust into in a desperate attempt to save my marriage.

I'm reading about a marriage with no partnership and no emotional support or empathy, in either direction.

I was instrumental in encouraging my wife to go to marriage counseling shortly after her affair (which, in my opinion, was a mistake -- in hindsight, IC should have came first). Your view is myopic and, quite frankly, unhelpful.

I thank others for their considered, empathetic, helpful posts.

[This message edited by BSPheonix at 5:35 PM, October 5th (Monday)]

BSP,

So your MIL lied to your WW about who her biological father is, no wonder she projects so much hatred towards you. Does your FIL know?

I couldn't gather from your old posts if the OM was an older man, a wealthy man or why your WW was infatuated with him apparently for a decade.

Suggest to OMW that she get a polygraph or a PI, either way will feed back some information to you at their expense.

The "why" is not your issue to answer. That is her issue to answer and correct, if she chooses to do so.

She is doing things that she doesn't want you to know about, "sneaking around and lying about it". It doesn't matter if it is McDonalds, Alcohol, Drug Use, or AP's, but people who do this are not safe partners.

If they will lie about McDonalds, they will lie about a whole lot more.

Your issue is how you protect yourself and the rest of your family from it.

IF she wants to change, she has to engage in a wholesale effort to change ingrained behaviors, which is not easy to do.

My FWS was from a family where lying, cheating, and deceit of all types, was a way of life for everyone involved. She learned her lesson well, and despite openly decrying it and avowing to not be like that in her own marriage, it turns out she started doing it early one, shortly after we met, and carried it on for over 18 years, well past the affair at 9 years, the hypocrisy is certainly not shocking but the disclosures of how far it went certainly were. She changed, but it took a lot of money for counseling, years of turmoil, effort, and near divorce several times. The last time she lied to me, which was about something like your McDonalds event, I called our children into the dining room, sat everyone down, and told them we were getting divorced, took off my wedding band, and considered it over, told her she could do whatever she wanted, and called our MC and told her that I was done. We ended up not getting divorced, but it took a lot of work on her part to stop that from happening. She knows that, despite the passing of the years since, another lie is the end. I'm done guessing the truth or wondering, I've got better shit to do than that.

Her mom needs to F off. Does she know her daughter had an A, and has lied and betrayed you?

Yes, she knows. My MIL said she's surprised my wife didn't have an affair sooner after all I've put her through. I'd genuinely like to know what this is but, I expect it's lies of omission on my wife's part -- conveying the false impression that I wasn't doing much to help with the children -- when in fact, I was the one up most nights and making sure she had a lie-in. I know this from messages I read last year when looking for the incriminating ones.

I suggest you file for D and have her served without warning,

I'm not yet ready to do this.

People do what they prioritize and typically they prioritize what is important to them.

Sadly, I agree. Being comfortable in PJs and, binge-watching Netflix (without me) seems to be a priority. I can sometimes pull her away but, I seem to be doing the lion's share of effort. I sometimes wonder if he finished with her/couldn't commit and, this is better (for her) than being alone.

I'm not saying leave or stay, I am saying really think about why you're doing what you're doing and -then- think about why you think that way. Introspect deeply about your own "whys".

Thank you devotedman. I genuinely want to reconcile but can't see that my wife does; her words say 'yes' but her actions speak 'no'. If things continue as they are, then I'd see myself wanting to leave but find myself conflicted by the potential damage on the children. I don't judge anyone for their own actions on this but, I believe I could feign contentment for my wife to the extent the children would never know. I'd be willing to make this sacrifice and, I know many wouldn't agree with this but, I can see it as the least-damaging outcome.

when her mom said those things, what did your wife respond?

She didn't defend me; she listened and, agreed to some extent. She seemed to play the victim.

I get that sometimes it is easier than other times. But, overall, I believe nobody is ever truly done with counseling...

At first, I had to work hard to convince my wife to go to counselling -- not only do we spell it differently in the UK but, I think there is a cultural difference in terms of perception. I may be mistaken but, it seems more 'healthy' in the US, perhaps seen as a positive/enabling 'tool'; whereas here, it's more generally perceived to be unusual (for people to attend) and, perhaps negative in some ways (e.g. signalling a 'last ditch attempt' to resolve issues). Personally, I see it as a healthy thing.

So your MIL lied to your WW about who her biological father is, no wonder she projects so much hatred towards you. Does your FIL know?

Yes, my FIL knows. He's a humble, kind and seemingly meek man (though he may just be selfless and enlightened). Only a couple of years ago my wife and her sisters thought their mum was having an affair with her best friend; they still think this may have been the case but, given their parents seem happy and functional, it's now rarely discussed.

I'm done guessing the truth or wondering, I've got better shit to do than that.

This is how I feel. Exasperated.

update:

I listened to recordings from the VAR. There were a couple of almost identical recordings in which my wife tells her best friend and sister that I'm being unreasonable for asking her to go to IC. They ask why I've requested this; she says it's because I can't deal with her lies. Naturally, they ask about the lies and she says I was infuriated when I learned she went for lunch on her way home from work without telling me.

You see what she did there? Lying by omission (of the full story). Her sister (who I like and respect) said she should tell me to F*&k off and stop being so controlling as we can't "keep going round in circles". Her best friend (whose partner has cheated on her) asked why I'm being so unreasonable, saying she can't understand why I'd be that way.

Last night I spoke to my wife and asked what she thought of individual counselling. She again said she doesn't need to go but, can't think what she can do to help me gain her trust. I said I was running out of ideas and can't live within a marriage without it (trust) and would (regretfully) be considering divorce if we don't work something out. She cried at this and asked if I knew that yesterday was the anniversary of the first day we met. I admitted I'd forgotten. I'm not thinking straight on this. Trying to sleep but can't.

[This message edited by BSPheonix at 5:09 AM, October 6th (Tuesday)]

She cried at this and asked if I knew that yesterday was the anniversary of the first day we met. I admitted I'd forgotten.

Do you see what she did just there, Phoenix? Classic deflection. You're at fault once again.

I don't know what to say, tbh - I'm sure others will have good advice to impart. But IMHO, given your latest update, she is definitely not R material because she truly does not care about being a safe partner for you. She is still in "all about her" mode.

I'm so sorry.

find myself conflicted by the potential damage on the children. I don't judge anyone for their own actions on this but, I believe I could feign contentment for my wife to the extent the children would never know

You're wrong. There's no way you can do this. Kids are extremely perceptive. If you attempt this, what you will actually do is model, for your children, how to live in a marriage with a bully, as if it's a normal state of affairs.

You see what she did there? Lying by omission (of the full story). Her sister (who I like and respect) said she should tell me to F*&k off and stop being so controlling.

This right here is proof as to why she needs counseling. She needs a non-vested 3rd party to discuss her issues w/ not her biased family that don't fully understand the trauma she has caused and continues to cause. Unacceptable.

And Yes a lie of Omission is still a lie, and it was intentional.

Last night I spoke to my wife and asked what she thought of individual counselling. She again said she doesn't need to go but, can't think what she can do to help me gain her trust.

She is unwilling to fix her shit. She is unwilling to own her shit. YOU need to do some IC to figure out if you are willing to be M'd to someone you will never trust, or how to get strong enough to be ready to file.

For me lying was a non-starter. My H was always quick to lie to avoid confrontation about stupid shit like this prior to Dday and to hide spending when things were financially tight. It always an issue for me through our entire relationship. After Dday, and walking into R, it was unacceptable. If I thought he was lying for any reason I was able to call out bullshit. Then keeping it neutral, and not a giant blowout argument we would explore together the motivation behind the lie. More often than not, it was "It didn't really matter, and I didn't want to make you upset/mad". Which was really dumb, because I am the kind of person that if you make me mad I will say so, and move on. I don't hold grudges, unless you consider being traumatized by lies holding grudges.

You need to figure out some serious and real consequences to her actions. You cannot force another person to do anything they are unwilling to do, but you can show them you are no going to tolerate that behavior. Period.

You're wrong.

I know you mean well but, is this simply your opinion or, can you provide any non-anecdotal, evidence-based data to support that claim? I would sincerely be interested. To my knowledge, there isn't any. All that I've read suggests that divorce does not have a 'neutral' impact on children.

If you attempt this, what you will actually do is model, for your children, how to live in a marriage with a bully, as if it's a normal state of affairs.

I understand your position but, how can you be so sure? I could learn to temper the bully or, her 'bullying' may not be evident to the children. Even if none of these were true or possible, the alternative (divorce) may be more damaging to the children. Where's the data to support either?

Edit: I should add, I'm not confident which would be best. As you can no-doubt tell, I'm thinking of how to minimise the 'collateral damage' on the children...without having access to the requisite information to make an informed decision. It's a paralysis, hence why I'm here harvesting as much collective knowledge as possible (fully aware that I may appear naive and or, hopelessly unrealistic to some).

[This message edited by BSPheonix at 8:02 AM, October 6th (Tuesday)]

YOU need to do some IC to figure out if you are willing to be M'd to someone you will never trust, or how to get strong enough to be ready to file.

I'm in IC but, as naive as it may seem, I hadn't considered exploring the need to 'get strong enough to be ready to file'. I guess I should start.

I hadn't considered exploring the need to 'get strong enough to be ready to file'. I guess I should start.

It's really figuring out if you are willing to be lied to and not trust your spouse for the rest of your M, or if you are going decide you deserve better.

Also one last thought as it seems to be a bit triggery for you. D with kids. Yes it is hard on them, but they also are learning a few really important life lessons and skills should you D.

1. Learning that it is ok to demand the respect you deserve in life be it from a spouse, a sibling, or a friend.

2. Divorced parents can get along and coparent and not need to hate each other.

Lastly they are seeing what you two do as what an M is. As such they are going to be more prone to making the same stupid mistakes in life. This was a huge motivator for me when I finally had enough. Yes. I handed him my rings, and was ready to walk. I couldn't change his behavior for him, but I could show him I wasn't going to tolerate one more day. That was the boot in his ass he needed to wake up, but I was too afraid to do early on.

Cognotive dissonance here: you say you're moving toward D because your W lies, and she says she doesn't know what more she can do.

She has missed the 2 options that are staring her in the face: stop the lies or start IC. Perhaps telling her that will get her to see she needs help.

There are large areas of the US where therapy is considered normal. There are many, however, particularly in between the coasts, where therapy is not accepted quite so readily.

[This message edited by sisoon at 9:55 AM, October 6th (Tuesday)]

You want her to grow and then you can both heal together, yes?

So keep pointing her in the right way. Explain the IC as as positive thing. You go too. It's not a you go, I'm fine and don't need it. It's positive because it helps you both. You both want to be happy. Let her know you're not going to make it uncomfortable for her to tell the truth. She can trust you.

I'm sorry about her needing to hide her eating. My WS did that too. He hid fast food and junk food and candy. He felt bad he wasn't working on his health. I asked for that and he asked for me to take on less so i had more free time. But then he snuck the food. As she improves her health, that food won't have so much appeal. It tastes like that to get people to buy it. There are hardly any good things in it, just the flavor. They have to work hard adding stuff to make it taste good.

Real fresh food tastes great. But it takes time to get used to less salt, less sugar, less carbs, less fat, no added flavor enhancer like yeast extract, msg, etc. That stuff they add is a burden on your liver so it cant get what it should get done. It has to work hard getting those additives out instead.

So can she see the IC and the truth as things to heal your family and the healthy eating to heal her body. She wants to be around for your kids. When you age, you want your organs in good shape. Maybe a slice of healthy pie is all she needs or if it's fats she likes, an avocado or yogurt. If it's carbs how about fruit and yogurt or some nuts with a little chocolate on them. Then that's better than the whole salty fries, soda,salty fried food combo. Sometimes toast with butter on one half and jam on the other half would get me through when I needed a mood lift. I get that feeling when you're on your way home, it was a long day, you just want to go through the drive through. My WS really struggles with that.

Life's stressful now for her, she's going to feel the pull for that mood boosting food. Ultimately though, she needs healthy mood stabilising food and plenty of rest to beat stress. You can do it together. I want to see you succeed. Keep encouraging her. Yes she's talking to the sister. Keep showing her the right path and see if that doesn't show up on the recordings.

You keep working on you. Be kind always.

It sounds like to me that your WW does not see the lying as a deal breaker for you so she does not see the need to fix it. She is also being advised to D you. Read that again until it sinks in. She is being told by multiple people that you are controlling and unreasonable. If the sister and best friend haven't suggested she think about D yet, it's right around the corner because that's generally what you say to someone who has a controlling and unreasonable spouse.

Have you thought about what would happen if she filed? You're going to want to start exploring that in IC. Your IC will be able to explore what your future would look like if a D happened. Even one you didn't initiate. Explore what you would do if you got a new DDay too because there is potential risk there as well. If you don't have a plan B for those scenarios, you need to come up with one because your WW is convincing herself that she's a victim to you and it's only a matter of time before she thinks she deserves better than to be held accountable for her bad behavior.

BSPheonix, FWIW and IMO,

Right now I'm thinking, if it weren't for my own selfish need to be around the children as much as possible, I'd be gone

Prior to having children I thought people who use this excuse for staying were weak.

Now that I have children I understand the reasoning better but I do know adult people who are very resentful of their parents, who were miserable, but stayed together for "the kids".

They have said they would have been better off with happily divorced parents than the miserable married parents they had.

wonder if she's sticking around for familiarity/comfort or, the children. She says she isn't but, again, what to believe

Would it be hard for you to believe that she too is staying only for the kids?

In response to the question about being critical, no, I'm not

why aren't you? She has cheated and continues to lie.

To be anything but critical of her would be rewarding her in my book.

So, I told my wife she needs to address her lies and, should seek counselling. She refused, telling me she's all 'counselled-out' and doesn't have anything to fix

So, she has a Phd and is in denial?

I'd genuinely like to know what this is but, I expect it's lies of omission on my wife's part

Possibly by omission or by rewriting the marital history or both.

Seeking answers from her while she is seeking answers from her cheating mother may only lead you through more discovery and pain.

Good luck and stay strong.

wayward here

this post has been playing on my mind since I read it a few days ago and its taken me a while to figure out why....not sure if this is helpful BSP......

the lying is the lying - no room for that in a reconciling marriage - BUT the thing that really stood out is what she was lying about. As someone who used infidelity as a way to manage my stress and the things that were going so badly in my life, her going off to eat junk food because she is stressed AND lying about it shows (to me) she is right at the beginning of her journey to become a safe partner for you - in fact her response since shows that she really hasn't even taken the first step on that journey ie trying to get others to support her approach and make out like you are being unreasonable by telling half truths, 'having nothing to work on' (woah really?!), her FOO sound awful as well.

to summarise:

1. poor coping mechanism when stress happens (now, in and of itself we all have some less than ideal things we do here ie eating junk food) but couple that with

2. lying to go and do the less than ideal stuff and

3. not telling my husband that I'm stressed and off to eat junk food or whatever it is

= very little movement to being a safe partner and actively working on my marriage.

as usual I feel I have expressed myself poorly sorry BSP!

Just a word about eating disorders - people have alot of shame and denial .i mean this very gently , you may not be her priority right now.

Hence your making demands while she is spiraling down the drain - its understandable but it is also counter productive .

I think you should probably go no contact and in a few weeks tell her that noone can stay in limbo for months on end .

If she wants your marriage to work she has to work on herself if she cant or wont work on herself because she is “all tapped out” then you have to leave .