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SeeYa, I too don't think you're going to get many satisfactory answers out of her - doesn't mean you shouldn't try!

I believe it's likely that she had many reasons for not initially telling you about the OM in the beginning of your relationship - discomfort, didn't want to relive those memories, couldn't find the right time, etc. But when DDay happened and she started telling people that she already told you, she made a choice. Fear is a possible explanation but it doesn't make sense to me especially when the language she used in her recent confession shifted a lot of blame towards OM for the A. I think she did it because she wasn't ready to give up the OM yet. She didn't want you to confront him, didn't want you to become more suspicious of him and keep a closer watch on the situation, didn't want you to dig deeper into it, etc. And that is evident by the fact that the cheating continued for some time after and if she didn't tell you, perhaps she could keep that door open to him in the future if they ever wanted to start up again.

[This message edited by nekonamida at 3:29 PM, November 4th (Wednesday)]

What will you do to protect your children from this guy?

Yeah the love of my life thing is still bothering me.

It may have been mentioned in prior postings, and I am no expert, so take this with a huge pinch of salt; have a look at Stockholm Syndrome, it is where the captive bonds with their captors.

This does not absolve her from her actions, but it may help you make some sense of the behaviour.

I have a unique opportunity from what I have read on this site to get as close to 100% disclosure as anyone.

I don't want to be looking back years from now wondering what I did not find out.

Why? Was it worth it?

Because I can. Shallow and maybe even cruel but I need to be honest here,

Some of these I won't get answered but at least I think I have an opportunity to get them. Will it matter in the long run? I have no idea. Probably not.

Understandable, and totally relatable.

Who wouldn't want some form of 'closure'? This would help make sense of the chaos you went through. It is the answer to the 'whodunnit?' mystery.

As long as you are willing to walk away without getting a satisfactory 'closure', then proceed by all means, but if you are going to feel that you need a logical/clear/sensible conclusion, then think long and hard about what you want to get out of this meeting. It might leave you feeling more 'lost'.

ETA:

Westway

What will you do to protect your children from this guy?

An extremely valid question that also needs to be addressed when meeting with your WW, as your WW has a possibility of reverting to her old 'lifestyle', considering her fragile metal state.

[This message edited by RocketRaccoon at 9:07 PM, November 4th (Wednesday)]

Hey brother, I like your lawyer

As she says, "if I fuck up it just means she can charge me more billable hours."

Just take it easy for yourself as well as your children.

I have stated many times that STBX does need to be held accountable. But some here don’t understand the power a abuser has over their victim and yes she is a victim. She believes that AP would have changed, for her. Listened to his bullshit dribble etc. In reality he just continued the abuse her emotionally. Again I have done and still do work with spouses from an abusive relationship. The power is real. Strength to you and good luck with the discussion day.

One day at a time.

Whatever you have to do to try and get some closure.....

But as you know she is messed up, in a lot of ways. So don’t expect too much in the way of answers.

I think the reason she said he was the love of her life, and was angry at you if I recall, is because it is the truth.

That very well may be. But when coupled with the information that I have that points to an extremely abusive relationship it's hard to make that blanket statement/decision. Not out of a sense of denial but just from a standpoint of common sense. Is there a deeper mental issue at play here? I think based on the evidence I have that is very much the case. Whether to her he truly is or isn't is irrelevant to me and my decision moving forward. I am trying to understand this as much as possible. Just for the sake of my own sanity/curiosity.

I guess what really has me shaking my head is that after they met up again, long into the marriage, he kept up showing by her car at work. This is classic batterer behavior. The constant being around akin to stalking. Given her three year history, it is amazing she did not see this. What is especially weird about this is how rapidly it accelerated into abuse again and how willingly she went for it.

I am former LE and we dealt with this kind of stuff a lot. The problem for women in these situations is learned helplessness. But I have never seen anything with a 20 year gap. That is why I referenced the 70s film The Night Porter, where a Nazi guard and inmate pick up again on their very abusive relationship 15 years after WWII. The female lead is happily married, well off and safe. She runs into her abuser and immediately is back in the earlier relationship of sex and abuse.

What I'm getting at here is that despite the charade she has been in for all the time of your marriage, she is a deeply flawed, deeply sick woman. While little is to be gained from asking her about this, as she is clearly not in tune with her issues, pushing to toward deep intensive psychiatric treatment (most definitely not typical counselling) is a good idea. She still is the mother of your children, and her self destructive behavior will not go away by itself.

Thank you for this post. This sums up almost all the questions I have and at the same time the concerns and observations too. I do a type of data analytics in my job. Collecting, processing, and analyzing data is my thing. I have learned I have to be careful not to let any preconceived notions interfere with what the data truly shows. I am struggling with this throughout this process.Obviously that is to be expected but still I am fighting this balance between knowing and projecting what I think I know. What you posted is what I think I know to some extent.

I believe it's likely that she had many reasons for not initially telling you about the OM in the beginning of your relationship - discomfort, didn't want to relive those memories, couldn't find the right time, etc. But when DDay happened and she started telling people that she already told you, she made a choice. Fear is a possible explanation but it doesn't make sense to me especially when the language she used in her recent confession shifted a lot of blame towards OM for the A. I think she did it because she wasn't ready to give up the OM yet. She didn't want you to confront him, didn't want you to become more suspicious of him and keep a closer watch on the situation, didn't want you to dig deeper into it, etc. And that is evident by the fact that the cheating continued for some time after and if she didn't tell you, perhaps she could keep that door open to him in the future if they ever wanted to start up again.

While on the surface her reasons for not telling me at the beginning of our relationship kinda...sorta...maybe make sense. Shame, fear, etc. I do not understand the not telling me later. Especially, since she had created the web of lies involving her parents and cousin. I am pretty sure the reason she never told me after the affair was a self preservation move.

What will you do to protect your children from this guy?

Hmm not sure the question simply from a stand point that my children are basically adults. My daughter is an adult and lives on her own. My son turns 18 in a couple of months. Even if she was to take up with AP afterwards more than likely she would basically be expunged from the kids lives by their choice. Maybe you are thinking of something I have not considered. If you want to elaborate I'll be glad to follow up.

As many of you have stated, yes she is broken. And yes I am aware that I am likely to get very little by way of "closure" from this but I am determined to at least try. I would rather just jerk the band aide off than peel it back slowly. Which is what it feels like right now.

I have spoken to cousin again and asked her if she would be available in case the STBX needs her after we talk. I am just thinking ahead a little. She has assured me that she would spend the weekend with her if necessary after we talk Friday evening.

What I think it boils down to is that your WW is in a toxic, abusive and addictive relationship with the OM. There is a perverted dynamic between them that is programmed into their DNA now, and I don't think there is anything you will ever be able to do that will fill that hole in the middle of her soul like he does. My advice to continue on with D and end it with her. Don't look for 100% closure. I don't think any explanation she will ever be able to give you will adequately explain why she allowed herself to fall this low with him. And knowing every detail of their escapades will not bring closure, only more misery. Please stop with the digging. Move on towards a pain free life knowing that she is simply a broken person who was unable to be a decent wife to any man.

[This message edited by Westway at 1:38 PM, November 5th (Thursday)]

IMO she's a very different person today than when a teen (e.g., a respected and accomplished licensed professional, a mom, a wife).

The adult version of your wife cheated on you (not the teen).

From your posts your wife was rewriting your marriage and resented you long before the X appeared.

The X just knocked on the door at the right time.

And over a period of weeks she made a conscious vs a spur of the moment decision to cheat.

IMO, if not the X, it would have been someone else.

I recall their more current relationship included dominant submissive role playing (a fetish) and not physical abuse. And when exposed he expressed his love for her and asked her to leave her husband.

The love of her life statement makes sense if in her mind his passion and dominance/control over her satisfied her definition of love.

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 2:11 PM, November 5th (Thursday)]

What this reminds me of more than anything is Jekyll and Hyde.

To be Jekyll with you, she could never reveal the presence of Hyde. Yet by keeping Hyde secret, she prolonged that side of her life, and perhaps a broken part of her wanted to preserve it, and was unable to break away from it.

This may be totally wrong, but is it possible she told the cousin and your MIL that she had told you about everything when she had told you nothing as a way to prevent them from independently raising the subject with you? If they thought you knew, they had no reason to tell you.

It really is like a supposedly 'dry' alcoholic who keeps a crate of whiskey in the woods behind the house, to visit when no-one is looking.

When a person gets into that kind of mind-set, there is not a lot that anyone can do to reach them. How do you save someone from themselves, if they do not want to be saved?

As sad as it is, while your wife may have known on some levels her other relationship was toxic or wrong, she did not want to stop it or be saved from it, and she knew you would have made her do that if you were aware of it. So she did not tell you, and she tried to make sure her cousin and your MIL would not tell you by telling them you already knew.

[This message edited by M1965 at 3:30 PM, November 5th (Thursday)]

Seeya,

What has the WW attempted to do so far to show you remorse, her self changes, to convince you to R.?

It’s common enough that survivors of abusive relationships have difficulties maintaining healthy relationships because they feel addicted to the highs and lows that come with abuse. The cycle of abuse involves a range of really intense feelings, not just the extreme fear and pain, but also a lot of highs that come from the “love-bombing” and making up that comes from an abuser winning their victim back. It makes me think of something I read:

“2 relationships ago, I had a boyfriend who was physically aggressive with me, especially during arguments. Grabbing, squeezing, slapping were all the norm. And honestly I'd provoke him most of the time because I just needed the fight to be over. After he smacked me or hurt me physically in some way, he usually calmed down and apologized and I'd be able to let my guard down and I'd cry. Then I knew it was all over, no lingering coldness, no scariness, it was just the end of that fight.

We broke up because I knew this was way too much destruction and chaos and stayed single for a while, and now I am in a new relationship. It is obvious to me (and friends) that he is a normal, stable person. When we get into fights, I am the one who gets heated and provokes him to make him angrier on purpose. He will take a breath and tell me, "I'm really not in a good place to talk right now. Let's talk again when we're both okay." He has never lost his temper, he has always managed to calm himself down and then come back with a quieter and nicer tone to finish discussing whatever it was.

This is obviously the appropriate and normal and healthy way to deal with arguments. I know it. However, it just makes me very uncomfortable, and for lack of a better word - it bores me. It bores me, there seems to be no climax, there's no relief from the tension, except that we compromise quietly and safely. I have this feeling that since I've never seen an animal rage from him, then I don't really know him that well.

On some level, it makes me feel very, very safe that no matter what I do or say, he will stay calm and reasonable, and that he will never get physically abusive. On the other hand- I'm always watching out for it- just in case. And also, I prefer for him to explode at me, hurt me, and then apologize.

How do I stop doing this? How do I tone my impulses down? My close friends have warned me that this sort of reaction (provoking) will drive him (a stable person) away, not transform him and his impulses into a violent person. I know that's the truth. I just feel like a prisoner to my own behaviors and habits. And it's not that enjoyed the abuse- it made me feel totally helpless and disrespected and sad. I made a conscious decision to break up with the last bad relationship.. but here I am, acting like this again.”

Your wife should have recognized this cycle and asked for help. She knew you were what a husband should be, but she needed to literally re-train her brain through therapy to fix her punishment/reward receptors. It sounds so messed up to say you want the abuse on some level, so I think she felt a lot of shame and hoped she could be happy with you. That explains why she never told you, why she went back, and why she is DEFINITELY not a candidate for R. She avoided the same kind of work once already.

[This message edited by TragicFarce at 5:52 PM, November 5th (Thursday)]

What I think it boils down to is that your WW is in a toxic, abusive and addictive relationship with the OM. There is a perverted dynamic between them that is programmed into their DNA now, and I don't think there is anything you will ever be able to do that will fill that hole in the middle of her soul like he does. My advice to continue on with D and end it with her. Don't look for 100% closure. I don't think any explanation she will ever be able to give you will adequately explain why she allowed herself to fall this low with him. And knowing every detail of their escapades will not bring closure, only more misery. Please stop with the digging. Move on towards a pain free life knowing that she is simply a broken person who was unable to be a decent wife to any man.

No doubt it was toxic. And divorce has been the goal since I left home after the party. That has not changed nor will it. While the thought of a reconciliation attempt after divorce was on the table when I moved out. It was moved OFF the table after the phone was found. The goal at this point is trying to understand enough and get to a place where my ability to interact with her in regards to our children is at a tolerable level. They are young enough to have many life events in their future and they deserve both of us at our best when we are around them together.

I might add, I am not going to fix her. I am not going to help fix her. I am not interested in fixing her. But, I do not seek to purposely make it difficult on her to get the help she needs by being anything other than honorable in my interactions with her and during the divorce. If she chooses to react in a way that becomes hostile during the divorce then the gloves come off. I realize everyone, hell most people here are not going to agree with this. But, at the end of the day I have to able to sleep soundly and live with MY choices not hers or anyone else's.

IMO she's a very different person today than when a teen (e.g., a respected and accomplished licensed professional, a mom, a wife).

The adult version of your wife cheated on you (not the teen).

100% agree with this.

From your posts your wife was rewriting your marriage and resented you long before the X appeared.

No. The resentment came a year ago when she thought I had checked out of the marriage. It was two years after the affair. There was no mention of an issue with our marriage prior to the affair.

The X just knocked on the door at the right time.

And over a period of weeks she made a conscious vs a spur of the moment decision to cheat.

IMO, if not the X, it would have been someone else.

To clarify. I have learned since the original post that there was a year long emotional affair with lunch dates but no evidence of PA prior to the two times they had sex before I found out. That revelation is buried in this thread somewhere.

I recall their more current relationship included dominant submissive role playing (a fetish) and not physical abuse. And when exposed he expressed his love for her and asked her to leave her husband.

Correct

The love of her life statement makes sense if in her mind his passion and dominance/control over her satisfied her definition of love.

This is as good a guess as any. And I do not agree or disagree. That statement though has been the hardest for me to understand. If he was an abuser, and many people have told me we was/is how does she believe/say this?

What this reminds me of more than anything is Jekyll and Hyde.

To be Jekyll with you, she could never reveal the presence of Hyde. Yet by keeping Hyde secret, she prolonged that side of her life, and perhaps a broken part of her wanted to preserve it, and was unable to break away from it.

I think this is another good analogy.

This may be totally wrong, but is it possible she told the cousin and your MIL that she had told you about everything when she had told you nothing as a way to prevent them from independently raising the subject with you? If they thought you knew, they had no reason to tell you.

It really is like a supposedly 'dry' alcoholic who keeps a crate of whiskey in the woods behind the house, to visit when no-one is looking.

When a person gets into that kind of mind-set, there is not a lot that anyone can do to reach them. How do you save someone from themselves, if they do not want to be saved?

As sad as it is, while your wife may have known on some levels her other relationship was toxic or wrong, she did not want to stop it or be saved from it, and she knew you would have made her do that if you were aware of it. So she did not tell you, and she tried to make sure her cousin and your MIL would not tell you by telling them you already knew.

I definitely believe it was to keep them from bringing it up.

What has the WW attempted to do so far to show you remorse, her self changes, to convince you to R.?

There is nothing she can do. Too many lies. I was trying to forgive the PA but was failing.

SYO,

But, I do not seek to purposely make it difficult on her to get the help she needs by being anything other than honorable in my interactions with her and during the divorce. If she chooses to react in a way that becomes hostile during the divorce then the gloves come off. I realize everyone, hell most people here are not going to agree with this. But, at the end of the day I have to able to sleep soundly and live with MY choices not hers or anyone else's.

Totally agree with your approach on the behaviour you should extend to your STBXW, as two wrongs do not make a right.

To get into the D process in a vindictive mindset can cause a person to make irrational decisions. A calm and clear head will serve you well throughout the process.

You are correct, you have to live with yourself.

You are kind of bargaining. There is nothing that you could have done.

Good luck tomorrow.

This is as good a guess as any. And I do not agree or disagree. That statement though has been the hardest for me to understand. If he was an abuser, and many people have told me we was/is how does she believe/say this?

There's a saying about "untangling the skein of their fuckedupedness." In other words, you can keep pulling on the ball of yarn for eternity and it will just keep spooling out. Sometimes there's just no figuring out a dysfunctional person and you're wasting your own life energy trying.

SeeYaIamOut

IMO OM was, is and will be the love of your wW Life. As this explains a lot.

There is not logic about why she loves OM, but you can see the same patern everywhere. Bitten women pritecting her abuses. Even here at SI you can see alot of BS being abused, not just by infidelity, stating that their abusers are the love of their lifes...

IMO she stated that OM was an abusive beast out of resentment. Resentment of her being used to get back at you!

After DDay she continued the affair because he is the love if her Life, and was waiting for him to ask her to leave with him. It never happened and when she realized It she broke Contact.

In addition, you seem to be a very clear minded guy about what you want, and your wife knew you, she knew that a second DDay would bethe end but she didnt give a fuck. She was exoecting OM to save her from you...

In other hand, if I am not mistaken she has never rejected OM, fist time her mother save her, second time you save her, when the affair ended It was out if resentment, not out os reflexión and guilty.

Are you sure that you know what happened before DDay?? Other contacts? An affair for years on and off? OM knowing were yiu live and going in a very natural way is weird for being the fist time.

May Bea good idea to ask her when was her last Contact with OM. You may be surpirised .aske her if she would be willing to take a Poly test, so you get a true answer .