SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Collecting, processing, and analyzing data is my thing.

Betrayed spouses are lucky if they get 10% of the truth from their wayward. Your quest for data will leave you very disappointed if you expect your wayward wife to confess all to you. Everything you have learned you have learned with your own independent investigation. You already have all that you will likely get.

Why would you trust anything she says unless you can verify independently what she has shared? Do you think as an example, she would ever confess to you that you were her safe choice as a partner vs the AP who is her first choice. I'm sure logically you can see why she would never confess to such a truth. Truth can be found in her actions. She threw away her marriage for her abuser. What you want to understand is how your wife could chose an abuser from her past over her husband and her marriage. I can't answer that question with logic anymore than you can. Your wife doesn't operate on logic as you do. She is broken.

The goal at this point is trying to understand enough and get to a place where my ability to interact with her in regards to our children is at a tolerable level. They are young enough to have many life events in their future and they deserve both of us at our best when we are around them together.

Your kids are grown and out of the home. They already appreciate what has happened. You are already interacting with her in a tolerable way - limited in person contact, all other communications restricted to only what is necessary. Your wife dug the hole so much deeper for herself by trying to involve them in her most recent folly. She revealed what happened in the hope that your children could be swayed to her side to help convince you to stay in the marriage. This effort backfired. What you are chasing after is how could she betray you for him (AP). You have no means or ability to moderate or compel your former wife's behavior. She will do as she pleases. Her affair with her abuser should be ample proof of this to you. Take her weak or otherwise false effort the last 3 years to reconcile with you as another example. In the early months of the reconciliation she was still sending photos and videos to the AP.

I have learned I have to be careful not to let any preconceived notions interfere with what the data truly shows.

This may indeed be true for you where your job applies but I would disagree where your wife is concerned. If you really want the truth, unpleasant as it may be, than you have no farther to look than the actions taken by your wife. Accepting unpleasant truth(s) is hard. Your wife will admit to nothing you cannot prove. Why else did you to take the opportunity to record her drunken out burst in the car. Certainly you can carry on with your quest for the truth. You will be disappointed with the results or lack there of.

Thumos has summarized your present situation best:

you can keep pulling on the ball of yarn for eternity and it will just keep spooling out. Sometimes there's just no figuring out a dysfunctional person and you're wasting your own life energy trying.

[This message edited by smolderingdark at 3:57 PM, November 6th (Friday)]

SeeYa

How did things go with your discussion?

The guy “stalking” her is not unusual. When we are teens our brains are still developing so things get imprinted that haunt us with what ifs. My hs boyfriend’s was much more into the relationship and long after we broke up he would call to tell me he still loved me. It happens. In this case the abuse became part of her definition of herself. She needs EMDR yesterday.

All of us are susceptible to hidden messages. Just look to tv ads, songs, but especially fairy tales. Women are supposed to be the little woman keeping the home fires burning. There is a hidden idea that women don’t cheat and men do. Way under the surface, not acknowledged by our conscious mind, is the idea that cheating is built into men. Lots of garbage out there about it. People are surprised when a man stays loyal but a woman doesn’t.

Her painful past, his “dedication” to her, are no longer your concerns. They knew better but did it anyway. He did not swing a watch in front of her and tell her she was getting sleepy. This was a deliberate act on the part of two adults...and she lied, compounding the pain. That’s your reality.

Take care of yourself and watch over your kids. They are never going to get over this completely but they can move past it with help.

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 3:52 PM, November 7th (Saturday)]

Going to be a little while before I give details but we got through the discussion. She wound up spending the night here and we continued this morning. I'm kind of drained. Last night went as well as could be expected. Today however, was not good. The issue of me finding the phone was a lot for her to handle (me too). It really caught her off guard.

I need to get my thoughts together and type out a summary. But overall I believe it was a good thing for us both. Admittedly, it probably did her more good than me. I'm okay with that. I'll just chalk it up to my last official act as her husband.

I do not regret the meeting at all.

Going to be a little while before I give details but we got through the discussion

Take your time to digest and think things through. As Buffer says, one day at a time!

Just breath, in then out. Hugs, then repeat. Keep Mr Angry under control.

One day at a time

[This message edited by Buffer at 4:52 PM, November 7th (Saturday)]

SeeYaIamOut

Today however, was not good. The issue of me finding the phone was a lot for her to handle (me too). It really caught her off guard.

When you say it "caught her off guard." that leads me to believe she, while promising you complete and uttter honesty, was going not going to tell you about that series of betrayals.

I am is a slightly differing view that STBX was going to divulge to Seeya but was shocked that he already knew of the burner phone: but had yet to tell her. I feel STBX had the intent to tell but was beaten to the punch so to speak. She now knows the burden that Seeya carried when conversing with her prior to the sit down session.

Just a view that is all.

One day at a time.

This is long I'll break it up into two posts maybe three.

We did not finish Friday evening and it continued Saturday morning. She spent the night and there was no attempt to initiate intimacy by either of us. Just to get that out of the way. We concentrated on the earlier relationship with him before our marriage because that was where I had less knowledge and she seemed to want to get it all out. She gave a lot of detail and to her credit she appears to have laid it all out and is no longer hiding anything. Anyway, I’ll save my thoughts to the end and I’ll just give you guys a run down on what happened and if you have questions I’ll answer them.

She arrived and we pretty much went over the ground rules. I asked a few questions and at that point she began talking with me only interrupting when I needed clarification. I used her note to set out my own timeline as a guide and had created specific questions based on it. She described what I believe would be a typical abusive relationship. Early on a lot of flattery and laughs and his having a very charismatic way about him. It moved quickly. He was only the second guy she ever had sex with and the first adult relationship. Looking back she saw ways he was isolating her from friends at first and eventually her family. After deciding to move in together, her parents were to the point that, in her words, “of disowning her”. She did not see her family for eight months after they moved in together. And barely spoke on the phone with them.

He was jealous. Convinced her to postpone college and eventually agree not to go at all. She had a part time job when they met but he again had her quit that. It was four months into living together when he first hit her. It was a slap in the back of the head that made her stumble. From there it escalated. What she took to be just kinks in bed became more and more painful and meant to hurt her and humiliate her than for any type of pleasure. As the sex got rougher, the physical abuse increased.

Not going into details much but, one of his favorite things to do was to grab the skin on her back near her shoulder blades while having sex and use it to pull her into him. Leaving red marks and finger nail scratches. He said the marks were, “sexy as fuck.” He was especially fond of punching/slapping her on the back, buttocks, and legs. Only stopping when the skin turned beet red. Just to give you some of the tamer things. He repeatedly degraded her and after each act, whether it was just a physical abuse or sexual abuse, he would have her tell him, “You are the love of my life.” That was his thing. Hurt her and then have her praise him. She pointed out that in being together for 26 years, she never once used the phrase, “You are the love of my life” when describing me. And she’s right. Never thought about it. She said she swore to never use it with me because of him.

The last six to eight months was basically one long physical/sexual assault. Broken only because he would go to work or see other women. One of whom he brought home but she refused to join them and he got so enraged he started slapping her in the face which was new. The other lady left and he just continued to beat K, (it’s just easier to use her initials than STBXWW), and took a week's leave from work because of his fear she would leave and call the police. She decided during that time she had to leave. Two weeks later her mother contacted her. They only spoke about once a month because K was afraid he would hurt her and/or her mom. They arranged to get her home and a month later her mother helped to arrange an abortion. I had misunderstood the timeline in her note. She actually found out she was pregnant after she left.

Eventually we got to the emotional affair that started in July 2016. When she saw him at the work event, it scared her. He recognized her immediately and she glanced over at him and saw him staring at her. She ran to the restroom and just shook all over. At some point he got close enough to her and he immediately said, “I’m sorry.” Something she never thought she would hear. She was still afraid and just walked away from him. The following week she received a single flower and a card. Thinking it was from me, but it was from him. He wrote her a long note about how sorry he was. He was no longer that guy and never wanted to scare her. He just wanted to ask her forgiveness. He included his cell number. She threw it away. The next week the same thing happened. She threw it away. Then one day she went to go out to the car to leave work and he was standing by her car. He begged and pleaded to her. Just hear him out. She said it was starting to rain and told him he could get in the back seat while she sat in the front. He had five minutes to say what he wanted to say. He explained how he had changed. How guilty he felt. The therapy he went through, etc. They talked for thirty minutes. She said it was mostly her venting about what he did and he treated her. She admitted it felt great to confront him. Then he cried. I shit you not he cried. She felt bad and the long and short of it she left with them feeling better after having this “closure”.

Over the next few weeks he would pop up at a gas station or a store she usually visits, Of course, completely by accident. She said she never thought about it but quickly realized her animosity and irritation at seeing him had turned into friendly banter. Eventually, they had lunch together, “just to relax and catch up on each other's lives”. It escalated from there. Before she realized it she was caught up in his whole world again. From there I have a pretty detailed account of when and how it went physical.We stopped for the night. It was late and we went to bed. Her in her own room. I phoned her cousin to let her know how it went and that we would finish up Saturday morning.

Meeting Saturday Morning

Saturday morning I did wake to her in my bed but as far away as possible and wrapped in her own blankets. Nothing I would call sexual at all. I did ask her later why and she simply said it was comforting. We got up and I got us some breakfast and we talked some more. Unfortunately, this was not as uneventful as Friday evening.

After eating, we were still sitting across from each other at the table and during the course of beginning our talk she asked if she could ask me a few questions. She wanted to know why I tried reconciliation and I answered basically because I thought we deserve to at least try. She then asked me if I had decided to divorce her a year ago when I seemed to change toward her. I told her no. I was upset because I could not get past the affair and had resigned myself to staying with her but not being as happy as I was in the marriage. I was staying because of the work she had done. Or at least the work I had thought she had done. She then asked about reconciling after divorce. And I told her the truth. I had left that door open when I first left the house. That after a divorce it was a possibility we could start over. But, then I found her old phone and read everything on it.

When she realized what I had said it hit her really really hard. If a person could shrink into themselves she did. Horror is the only way to describe the look on her face. She began to just repeat “No. No. No.” , over and over. She then started pulling at her hair. I got up to go around and try to keep her from hurting herself and as I did she just threw up everywhere. All over herself and the table and the floor. I grabbed a dish towel and as I approached her she just slid to the floor. I kept her from hitting her head but she was just wailing. After a minute or two I was able to get her to the bathroom. She was acting up so bad I eventually just had to yell at her to shut up and get a hold of herself and she went quiet. I got her in the shower and cleaned up. She was very reserved and submissive now. I would tell her to raise her arm. She’d raise her arm. Lean her head back. She would lean her head back. All the time holding on to my arm or hand. Once I got her clean and dried I slipped into my room and got her a T-shirt and my robe. Grabbed a clean shirt and pants for myself. It was the first time I got away from her and I immediately texted her cousin to come to the house. Once I got the shirt and robe on her I took her to my room and had her lie down. She went to sleep pretty quickly.

I cleaned my kitchen and myself and thankfully her cousin was there in about thirty minutes. I explained what went on and we talked a while until K came back into the living room and sat down with us. She reached into her purse and handed me the phone. She apologized and said she was so sorry I had to find out that way. She was planning on telling me whatever I needed to know and then giving me the phone as proof she ended it. Which was true she ended it not him. We spent a few minutes on her thought process during that time. The time after DDay and the stuff on the phone. She said she was still in a combination of the old abuse mentality and affair fog. She was afraid I was going to leave her and all along kept justifying just kept justifying it to herself. We talked a little longer and her cousin joined in. This conversation centered more on her getting some mental health treatment. I explained that I could not help her. It was too painful for me and I had to take care of myself now. She seemed to understand that. And that was it. She gave more than enough details and proof to back up what she was telling me. I will never say I one hundred percent believe her but I have a good understanding of things now.

I am surprised that I am not as sympathetic to her as I thought. Maybe this is that fabled indifference everyone speaks of on here. While I have never experienced abuse such as this I still have a hard time understanding the hold an abuser has over their victim. To her credit the PA and EA she took complete responsibility for. Never tried to blame her past even though I can see it played a part. She admits to using it as a reason to justify it to herself. But eventually it was her fault. Her words were. “I knew better. I knew that every time I agreed to see him led me down that path and even though I don’t fully understand why…I knew better.” I think that is as good as I’ll get.

I'll think about this for awhile and at some point I'll reach that equilibrium I need I am sure. I have no more questions and I have no desire to ask anymore. I don’t regret this meeting at all. I was given an opportunity to get answers and I abhor willful ignorance so I took it. Looking back I think this did her more good than me and I’m okay with that. I’ll just chalk it up to my last official duty as her husband. While I still have intense anger toward her I believe now it's on me to get past that. I think I will.

One final thing. I took extra precautions due to some of the information I have read on this site and others. I had a small camera covering the living room area and another in the kitchen area. The house is an open concept design so that covered about 80% of the area we would be in. Did not anticipate the sleepover but still I thought the cameras were necessary. After we talked I handed her the old phone back and she said she never wanted to see it again so I made a big gesture of throwing it away. Even took it outside to the garbage can. I think this made her feel relieved. What I did not tell her is I have everything copied. That is my insurance policy. Just in case. Also, the big change in agreement I had the lawyer make was a last friendly gesture to her. If the divorce is settled as agreed upon in our joint agreement, I will pay off the house she is living in within ten days of the final divorce decree. And I will forfeit all the equity to her. While I am not rich, there is a disparity in our retirement so this is not as grand a gesture as it seems. Like I said I have a strategy and the lawyer understands it. I have also emailed my attorney to forward the separation agreement to K’s lawyer as soon as she can.

I’m so sorry your wife did this to your marriage. It just defies logic how she was not strong enough to protect herself from him.

He’s able to manipulate her feelings and distort her senses to a point she doesn’t realize she’s fallen prey to him.

She escaped him physically but never escaped him emotionally.

I was very young when I fell victim to a serial cheater. He preyed on my innocence. I realized that later on. Once someone told me what he was doing I walked away and never looked back. He tried for a year to get me back. But I was able to see through his charade (lucky me) even at a young age. I was lucky.

Your wife should have realized how toxic this guy is/was and used her strength to protect herself. She got out. She survived him. And she should have told you the second she saw him and every time after that exactly what was going on.

It will never make sense to rational people why she did not do that. I understand he’s manipulative etc. But she was in no physical danger and could have prevented any contact.

Did she ever get therapy after she left him?

She ended it but never could let go. Hence the drunk behavior.

Which is probably why she saved the phone.

She is very needy and should see a psychiatrist. Give that she was a prisoner for three years, she makes Patty Hearst seem like a piker. Her truth is that despite everything she still views this bastard as some one she deeply loves.

It’s sort of like the guys who returned from Chinese prisons after Korea. They could not get over the brainwashing without intense long term care. Some never did.

I think you handled the meeting very well all things considered and you seem to have gotten your "closure" and her explanation of events to your "satisfaction", you also have a firm path out of infidelity, you got this, well done.

The difference between her emotions Friday night and Saturday morning have me wondering. Since she says she planned to give you the phone. but... she was shocked to the point of being sick... I've got to wonder if she deleted messages off of it.

Doesn't really matter... She just kept things so "romantic" sounding for friday...and how she sort of slowly got suduced and then felt closure, and he seemed to have changed... I wonder how much of the real story you would have gotten if you had not revealed that you already knew everything. That you knew her part in the Affair...

Anyway, I'm glad you talked things out.

Did she ever have an answer or a plan on how to repair her relationship with your daughter?

Part of your story is so similar to what happened to my brother’s friend about 20 years ago. Like you, he discovered his wife’s infidelity when her ex reentered her life. The guy had a known history of physical abuse and was super possessive. After he divorced and left her, she got sucked back into her old relationship with her ex. Two years later he murdered her and committed suicide.

It makes sense that you are not too sympathetic to your wife’s abuse, much the same way that most people are not sympathetic towards sufferers of infidelity. Unless it personally affects or happens to them they wonder why it’s taking so long to get over it. It’s why this forum exists. You can’t fully understand the logic or pull from traumatic bonding because you haven’t experienced it. You’re also dealing with your own damage to your ego and manhood. The traumatic bond between the victim and the abuser is extremely powerful and reprograms the mind in ways that are hard to comprehend, but take it from me it’s real and is very difficult to break away from. Your wife wasn’t able to get away from her ex the first time without the help from her relatives.

Why did she choose to deal with her ex alone this time? For one it hadn’t escalated to physical violence yet, but also with trauma bonding there’s a strong need to receive comfort from the very person that abused you. A lot of this programming comes from her ex grooming her with cycles of abuse and forgiveness, alternating between a twisted form of reward and punishment, until she deeply believes “he didn’t mean to hurt me, it was my fault” and “he puts up with me and my flaws and he still loves me”. As crazy as it sounds, she equates this cycle with real love. Like the scene towards the end of the movie Good Will Hunting, it takes a lot of work and convincing to accept that “it’s not your fault”. I wish she did go to you for help, but it was difficult for her to get help the first time around so there’s a pattern that in all likelihood is built on fear and shame.

I was an emotional and mental abuser to my wife. My father-in-law also abused her, mentally and physically, when she was a child, so it kind of makes sense why she married me. I would let my anger and stress get the better of me and take it out on my wife. I wanted things my way and had major control issues. For years she put up with it, and all that time I didn’t think I was the problem even as our marriage turned cold and distant. Two years ago I learned she had a 9 year affair with someone she saw twice a year. I was furious, but I also remembered all those talks about her FOO abuse issues and how she didn’t like how I treated her, and the affair became a wake up call. It shook me to my core. I know deep in my heart that I wouldn’t have changed if not for the hurt she caused me with her affair. She told me years ago in the early days of her affair she had an epiphany, that all those times I abused and yelled and screamed at her, that it was not her fault. None of it was her fault. It took about six months after DDay to get over most of my heartbreak. Focusing on repairing the damage I inflicted on her helped take my own pain away. We worked to fix our marriage and are now doing much better.

I can’t help but feel your wife’s devastation is greater than yours. The “tame” version you described of the physical abuse that she dealt with on a daily basis was FAR worse than what I dished out, and I saw tremendous damage for what I did. I know you didn’t ask for this, but neither did she. She wasn’t looking to have an affair. If it wasn’t for the chance encounter with her ex and his subsequent stalking to “apologize” to her while overwhelming her defenses and reestablishing his abusive hold, you wouldn’t be here. It’s especially tragic that in the end her abuser won. He regained control of her life and completely destroyed it. I’m not saying you should reconcile your marriage, but as her best friend and with her being the mother of your children I hope you’ll consider not cutting her out completely and offer to help her heal from her double trauma. Does your daughter know of your wife’s abuse? I hope your daughter also finds a way to understand her mother’s trauma and decides to help her mother get through this.

I am not a psychologist but my training and job give me a front seat to stories like yours. Please read this.

I am borrowing, and changing, a wonderful way to understand why people react to things the way they do. A group(family/lovers) is only as healthy as its sickest member. Your wife was young when she got sucked into a relationship by an emotional vampire. Because she was young, and had no experience with this kind of person, she had no defense against him. She was skillfully isolated from her family without understanding just how manipulated she had been. The brain is more changeable than thought and he absolutely changed hers. Without good therapy she was never going to mature past this abuse. Finally she got away from him physically but the emotional damage kept her chained to him. All it took was for him to begin the manipulation again and she was right back where she had been. After I read your latest I changed my mind about her. I don’t think she had free will once he started again. He is unbelievably manipulative and she was/is a perfect target. Please see that she gets therapy regardless of your marital status. She needs some healthy tools to manage the rest of her life. He raped her whether she could ever prove it in court.

SeeYaIamOut, I didn't think you will get much out of the meeting but you did very well, and you got a decent closure that many BS never get, I believe that you had good progress!

And she should have told you the second she saw him and every time after that exactly what was going on.

I asked her this. Her answer was because she had not told me about the abusive relationship she was afraid to reveal she had lied all these years. Now this I cannot get my head wrapped around. I would have been disappointed sure but consider the result...I don't know. That's just one of the few things that I felt were...weak. As in her answer was not sufficient.

She just kept things so "romantic" sounding for friday...and how she sort of slowly got suduced and then felt closure, and he seemed to have changed... I wonder how much of the real story you would have gotten if you had not revealed that you already knew everything. That you knew her part in the Affair

I wouldn't say anything she said was very romantic. Quite the contrary. As far as what truth would I have gotten if I had not already had as much info as I had. Who knows. I would think she would have been just like any other cheater and trickle truthed.

Did she ever have an answer or a plan on how to repair her relationship with your daughter?

When the three of us talked I just told her that at some point after she fixed herself she would need to work on her relationship our daughter. I again told her I would do my part but only in a passive way. Meaning I would not actively work toward helping her but I would ensure that I would not contribute to any animosity.

Part of your story is so similar to what happened to my brother’s friend about 20 years ago. Like you, he discovered his wife’s infidelity when her ex reentered her life. The guy had a known history of physical abuse and was super possessive. After he divorced and left her, she got sucked back into her old relationship with her ex. Two years later he murdered her and committed suicide.

It makes sense that you are not too sympathetic to your wife’s abuse, much the same way that most people are not sympathetic towards sufferers of infidelity. Unless it personally affects or happens to them they wonder why it’s taking so long to get over it. It’s why this forum exists. You can’t fully understand the logic or pull from traumatic bonding because you haven’t experienced it. You’re also dealing with your own damage to your ego and manhood. The traumatic bond between the victim and the abuser is extremely powerful and reprograms the mind in ways that are hard to comprehend, but take it from me it’s real and is very difficult to break away from. Your wife wasn’t able to get away from her ex the first time without the help from her relatives.

Why did she choose to deal with her ex alone this time? For one it hadn’t escalated to physical violence yet, but also with trauma bonding there’s a strong need to receive comfort from the very person that abused you. A lot of this programming comes from her ex grooming her with cycles of abuse and forgiveness, alternating between a twisted form of reward and punishment, until she deeply believes “he didn’t mean to hurt me, it was my fault” and “he puts up with me and my flaws and he still loves me”. As crazy as it sounds, she equates this cycle with real love. Like the scene towards the end of the movie Good Will Hunting, it takes a lot of work and convincing to accept that “it’s not your fault”. I wish she did go to you for help, but it was difficult for her to get help the first time around so there’s a pattern that in all likelihood is built on fear and shame.

I was an emotional and mental abuser to my wife. My father-in-law also abused her, mentally and physically, when she was a child, so it kind of makes sense why she married me. I would let my anger and stress get the better of me and take it out on my wife. I wanted things my way and had major control issues. For years she put up with it, and all that time I didn’t think I was the problem even as our marriage turned cold and distant. Two years ago I learned she had a 9 year affair with someone she saw twice a year. I was furious, but I also remembered all those talks about her FOO abuse issues and how she didn’t like how I treated her, and the affair became a wake up call. It shook me to my core. I know deep in my heart that I wouldn’t have changed if not for the hurt she caused me with her affair. She told me years ago in the early days of her affair she had an epiphany, that all those times I abused and yelled and screamed at her, that it was not her fault. None of it was her fault. It took about six months after DDay to get over most of my heartbreak. Focusing on repairing the damage I inflicted on her helped take my own pain away. We worked to fix our marriage and are now doing much better.

I can’t help but feel your wife’s devastation is greater than yours. The “tame” version you described of the physical abuse that she dealt with on a daily basis was FAR worse than what I dished out, and I saw tremendous damage for what I did. I know you didn’t ask for this, but neither did she. She wasn’t looking to have an affair. If it wasn’t for the chance encounter with her ex and his subsequent stalking to “apologize” to her while overwhelming her defenses and reestablishing his abusive hold, you wouldn’t be here. It’s especially tragic that in the end her abuser won. He regained control of her life and completely destroyed it. I’m not saying you should reconcile your marriage, but as her best friend and with her being the mother of your children I hope you’ll consider not cutting her out completely and offer to help her heal from her double trauma. Does your daughter know of your wife’s abuse? I hope your daughter also finds a way to understand her mother’s trauma and decides to help her mother get through this.

Thanks for posting your story. I can honestly say that I never felt like I was anything other than supportive of her. We all have our issues and mine is my temper but I have never once lost it with her or the kids. Like you said, I cannot relate to her willingly going back into a relationship with someone that was so bad to her.

No my daughter does not know of my wife's abuse. I think it would be important for her to know but I struggle with whether or not I should tell her or let her mother. I am interested in anyone's opinion on this. It's possible I might follow up with the STBX and discuss this. Again, I'm open to opinions.

After I read your latest I changed my mind about her. I don’t think she had free will once he started again. He is unbelievably manipulative and she was/is a perfect target. Please see that she gets therapy regardless of your marital status. She needs some healthy tools to manage the rest of her life. He raped her whether she could ever prove it in court.

I had hoped my opinion would change more. I may have had this weird subconscious fantasy we could work it out. I don't think so..but I do not feel as "good" about the out come as I thought I would. I mean I feel a sense of finality but I was really hoping I could come out of this feeling "ok" about her. Or even sympathetic. But I don't.

Thanks for the kind words everyone. It was a really hard thing to sit through. I was extremely angry just being in her presence and listening to the abuse just made me feel like a jerk. But I could not help it. And believe me guys, the stuff she described was so much worse than I can write here. But still I was angry with her for doing it again. Based on the phone videos I have no reason to doubt her on the sexual abuse. The dude has freak streak a mile long. And the physical abuse I believe because her story has been consistent with what I have learned from her mother and cousin. But still I was angry all night long.

Saturday was a different story. I think I was more emotionally exhausted so I was able to have a little bit of normal interaction while getting breakfast ready. As for the phone and whether or not she erased anything. I would guess not. But if she did I still have copies of it. I really think she knows what she has lost and realizes any hope of a happy future for her hinges on fixing her issues. I really have no reason to doubt her on anything. Like I said, I believe she got more out of this than I did.

Heard back from my lawyer. Again I really like her. She replied to my email about going ahead and sending the agreement as is by saying, "Damn. It worked. I'll just have to charge you over time for answering this email on the weekend. Happy for you." If I was ten years younger and not so screwed up from this messed up marriage I'd ask her out.

I'll continue to answer questions folks and keep you updated as things progress but right now I'm feeling okay about things. What few issues I am having right now are familiar from three years ago and I understand time and a whole lot of extra activity will help them fade away eventually.

Well done SeeYa. A very emotional few days for you and your STBX.

Again I ask to be supportive to her due to the abuse. She has opened up and she does deserve praise for this. Not praise for her actions during or after the A, but that she told you. It would have been very difficult for her.

Your question about informing DD, yes she does need to be informed. But so she has a understanding that mum has issues and need her to be a supportive nature.

Your STBX will need to talk at length to DD and educate her as why she did as she did. None of the sexual stuff but that there was abuse, physical, emotional, sexual, most likely financial as well.

POS well you took his punching bag. That is why he chased her after the meeting with you. He was degrading her in her marriage, to get back at you.

I have stated this before from the geko he is a coward.

One day at a time.