SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

This is very troubling. I can't think of many reasons she'd offer this other than: 1) She is still quite wayward and would like to go have sex with other men. 2) She wants to compromise you so you'll be a hypocrite for demanding a basic standard of monogamy from her.

Or both. In other words, a tacit attempt to negotiate an open marriage. As you know, open marriages tend to be one-sided arrangements privileging women more often than not.

Most of her gambits thus far have been self-centered moves. This one is no different.

There is literally nothing wrong with looking out for your self first. It's the first piece of advice everyone gives everyone that is having relationship problems. I understand that self-preservation mode for a WS may not be conducive to R. That's OK. I'm OK with that.

If what she thinks is best for herself is D, that's great. I've told her what I need in writing and if she can't or won't do it, we shouldn't be married.

The hallpass idea was obviously out of desperation because she was "losing" our fight. Up until now I caved and caved. She was expecting me to cave at some point during this fight. I did not. In her mind, this would prove that she could just forgive me and move on, then have the upper hand if I couldn't just forgive her and move on.

She used false equivalence of me betraying her trust and privacy and how could she trust me again. I said, "It's fine if you can't. I don't trust you right now. I wrote a letter to that effect, and if you simply agree with me, we should get divorced." Then she says, "but I do trust you even though you XYZ'd." I say, "Good, that's good for you. I don't trust you because [insert entire story of the A and NC in July here]. If you want my divorce letter to not be correct, you need to lead the efforts to repair my trust in you. If you can't. That's fine, we can go our separate ways." At this point she went for the hallpass concept.

She used false equivalence of me betraying her trust and privacy and how could she trust me again

Man, she just keeps digging that hole. Remarkable. This is a subtle form of DARVO, but I'm sure you already knew that.

There is literally nothing wrong with looking out for your self first.

Unless you're trying to manipulate your already betrayed husband even worse. Looking out for number one is fine, but running over other people in the process is not.

[This message edited by Thumos at 1:58 PM, December 1st (Tuesday)]

Your first post suggested that you were going for a FWB relationship, That R was not on the table, and you had generally decided to stay with her since "everything else" is good.

A bunch of pages later you are fighting because she doesn't get it and R can never happen until it does so maybe you should divorce.

What exactly are you looking for here? I vaguely remember your were on the separation forum for a while but went back because of her bad mental health situation. Did that resolve?

As a MH, I'm kind of in the relationship you describe in your first entry. We made our peace but don't ever fight about it anymore. Not exactly the best place to be, but not where you seem to be at all.

Also, your back story is unclear. Not at all sure why you want this kind of relationship in the first place.

[This message edited by etaoin at 2:44 PM, December 1st (Tuesday)]

Your first post suggested that you were going for a FWB relationship, That R was not on the table, and you had generally decided to stay with her since "everything else" is good.

A bunch of pages later you are fighting because she doesn't get it and R can never happen until it does so maybe you should divorce.

What exactly are you looking for here? I vaguely remember your were on the separation forum for a while but went back because of her bad mental health situation. Did that resolve?

The thread started with me wondering if the situation was sustainable. Maybe it is for some people but not for me. The thread evolved to an update to the status of my specific relationship.

I was in the separation forum because I planned to divorce. I couldn't go through with it because it wasn't what I really wanted. She does have mental health issues, but that isn't why I failed to divorce her the first time. It was because it just wasn't what I wanted. That put me into the voluntary limbo of M without R.

What I'm looking for now? Insight, advice, support. The general stuff people post here for. Internet strangers aren't going to solve my real life problems of course.

As a MH, I'm kind of in the relationship you describe in your first entry. We made our peace but don't ever fight about it anymore. Not exactly the best place to be, but not where you seem to be at all.

It was where I was. It's not where I am now. I'm glad you have found some sort of peace. I do think for some it's possible to stay in M indefinitely without R. For me, I was just kidding myself.

There is literally nothing wrong with looking out for your self first. It's the first piece of advice everyone gives everyone that is having relationship problems. I understand that self-preservation mode for a WS may not be conducive to R. That's OK. I'm OK with that.

Except when the entire issue is due to one partner continually looking out for herself and her interests at the expense of the other.

Have you thought about what it would take for you to accept as her "final answer"? I'm not saying what it is you should or should not accept, just asking if you have an idea about what are your limitations and boundaries and the amount of time you are willing to give her? It is ok if you do not know.

I gave her a written list of needs and wants. She must meet the needs or we are finished. The wants are things she should be working on a toward. How long does she have to agree and make that path? Next Friday (a month from when we shared written goals needs and wants). If she doesn't outline an acceptable path forward, we will get an amicable divorce.

You have been very direct with her - after she prioritizes all her needs she can either grow up and stay married or stay a child and get divorced. So far she has evaded and deflected and denied giving you any clear answer ; my guess is that she will try the same strategy again . However i get the sense that you have alot more clarity this time around .

[This message edited by siracha at 5:10 PM, December 1st (Tuesday)]

@This0Is0Fine, why does "outlining an acceptable path forward" suffice for you? Didn't she do that back in March?

I also think you are making a huge mistake putting down her quitting her job as a "want" and not a "need". It is the one concrete action she could take to show that she is invested in this marriage and making you feel safe.

I agree with the others that even though she may SAY the right things, she is clearly focused on her own feelings and not yours. So she goes and steps out and even after that she still wants to be able to take on new male friends? And she feels the big problem is that you make her feel bad about this? Seriously? Why isn't she thinking about how her actions are continuing to be putting her you and the marriage in harm's way?

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 8:25 PM, December 1st (Tuesday)]

Written clarity and my new found ability to say "sorry, not good enough"

I’ve managed as many as 750 people over various departments and most people will work extremely hard at not making a decision.

A lot think it’ll just go away or fix itself.

That rarely happens

"Written clarity" is BS. Her negotiating is just a stall tactic and you still seem to be falling for it. There is no need for negotiating. She instead should be moving mountains to fix things already with action not words and you cannot be accepting anything less!

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 10:57 PM, December 1st (Tuesday)]

Moving a mountain can only be done one rock at a time.

Moving a mountain can only be done one rock at a time.

Only if that is what YOU want. It can go as quickly, or as slowly, or not at all, as YOU want.

Specifically since giving her the divorce letter she:

-Asked for a clear written list of my needs and wants (yes I put new job as a want not a need but I pointed out that the personal contact boundary is a HARD boundary and a need)

-Wrote and agreed to boundaries related to AP and APs friends (new written NC agreement)

-Scheduled a new MC session, she was avoiding talking about breaking NC in front of the counselor

These are positive steps that have occurred but they have also been punctuated by her fighting against what I have written for my needs and wants. Fighting about what came out of he MC session.

What's on your list of "needs and wants"? And what points has she fought against after MC?

Moving a mountain can only be done one rock at a time

Yes but at some point you will actually need to start picking up and moving those rocks. At present both of you are still staring at the mountain and negotiating about how you are going to pick them up.

Neither of you are actually DOING anything here that is actually going to make you any progress. It’s been a year and she was still closely interacting with OM at work and arranging coffee (that’s just what you know about) I sense she is still very much in this affair on an emotional level at the least.

I think that you are hoping that she will get what she has done wrong and will start working on the things you have on the list but it’s a bit cart before horse, it’s not getting to the core of the issue, that she is untrustworthy, that she does not care about your marriage, your feelings or the quality of YOUR life. Caring for yourself first is fine to a point, but not when it’s at the expense of other people.

Action is not her reading a book you give her, action is reading the book and trying to apply what it suggests. Actions isn’t saying do X or I will divorce you, action is filing for divorce and then saying, we will look at stopping this if you do X. You need some action now, you guys have been staring at that mountain long enough.

This mountain really has but a few heavy rocks though. Bulldozers can move rocks too @This0Is0Fine. Your wife has access to bulldozers. She could have moved those rocks months ago as she agreed to do so. She still isn't using the bulldozers to move the rocks though, despite all these "plans" to use them over the past year. And still, you don't seem to be requiring her to remove the rocks pronto, only a "plan" that has her moving them at some point in the future.

What is your endgame here. So you and your wife agree to a "plan" basically like the ones you had before--one that backloads the real action to some further date, when in reality she could climb into the bulldozer right now and move the damn rocks already. Then what happens if and probably when--going by previous events that is--your wife walks back the agreed-upon plan. Do you go back and negotiate another plan?

I'll say it...you are doing the same things that didn't work before. You are still CAVING again.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 9:22 AM, December 2nd (Wednesday)]

Ok, let's say she gives you a satisfactory path forward on Friday. How long does she get to complete your requirements? What happens if she makes an appointment with the MC but refuses to go at the last minute? What if she goes but doesn't participate or spends the time DARVO'ing? What if she only goes once and then refuses to keep going? What if she agrees to stop communicating with OM's friend but then later decides to talk to them again? What about if she talks to OM again outside of what is acceptable for work? How long does she have to get a new job before you throw in the towel?

It's your lack of answers to the questions above that make everyone believe you are doing more of the same. Even your WW! Because she did this once already. She made a plan and then broke every promise. And yet here you are, doing it again and expecting something different. Isn't insanity described as doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results? Just because YOU think you mean it this time for real doesn't mean she believes you. So even if she comes up with a wonderful or acceptable path forward, don't just expect you to R now and everything will go smoothly. Come up with your lines in the sand and what you will do when inevitably things don't go as planned. Decide now how many times she gets to break NC or talk to the friend or how many months she gets to not look for a new job or how MC needs to go for you to be satisfied with the result and confident that D is no longer needed. And if/when that happens, no more discussion. No more handing her a written reminder of the rules. No arguing. No JADE'ing. The only thing that happens is you seeing a lawyer and filing. Otherwise, you'll be here again in 6 months doing the same song and dance. And even if you file, she still has time to turn things around but given how this has gone on, she's not likely to just take your word for it that you're serious and she needs to stop all toxic behavior until your reactions to that behavior have a real impact on her life.

Really doesn't matter what the forum or my WW thinks. I said before I would ask for divorce if it seemed like the best path forward. I asked. She wants an opportunity to show she gets it. I'm giving it to her. Chances of her doing enough are near zero. If divorce is still the best path, I will choose it. I will not cave on my needs and I will not ignore my wants.

Aren't we coming up on about 48 hours for her to reverse her cranial rectal inversion? I forgot the timeline but it felt like the clock was ticking for her to deliver on something solid for you. Is she doing a papier mache version of it, or what's taking her so long at this late stage?

The 11th. It's the anti-versary.