SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Me: "I don't like that you are being friendly with AP's friend"

Her: "Well he's a coworker and having a hard time coming out because of his conservative background and I'm one of his few liberal friends"

"Ok, sure, but it puts you one step closer to AP and that hurts and makes me anxious"

"I'm sorry but it's important to me"

"Well, ultimately I can't control your actions. You can do whatever you want."

"No I can't."

"Sure you can."

"Right, but then there will be consequences."

"Yes. I don't like this friendship, and it's not doing much to make me not feel like an idiot." (This is a call back to a request that she make me not feel like and idiot with her words and actions).

"You're not an idiot. This is a completely different friendship."

"Look, I've tried setting hard boundaries, and it didn't work. I can't say I will or won't divorce you over it, but I don't like. I can rationally understand where you are coming from, but it hurts. You need to know that."

"OK, I promise there is nothing to worry about and I will not have secret conversations with AP's friend or AP. OK?"

"Fine, but I don't like it."

She doesn't seem to have a problem putting herself first here. She doesn't seem to have much motivation to please you? I get not having to want to give up autonomy and a job, but you are asking for the most minimal of efforts. You are are not asking her to give up a career nor are you telling her she cannot have friends or whatever. You are asking her to simply not be extra friendly with a person--who she doesn't even know--in order to make you feel reasonably safe considering he is a direct tie to the AP?

If you decided you were to put yourself first at her expense, would she be so accommodating? What if it violated your autonomy to not do whatever you want?

Over 1 year membership and over 500 posts ! With the greatest respect isn't it time to stop dithering and make a decision and follow it through ?????! Good luck

Have you asked why it is more important making some jerkoff, who she doesn’t even know, more comfortable than her husband?

Obviously, I don’t know her or you, but the way you describe her actions post dday she seems like the most assertive doormat I’ve ever heard of. Most people pleasers have a probably saying know and establishing boundaries. She seems like she is very good at telling you to go pound salt when she feels you are encroaching on hers.

[This message edited by KingRat at 4:52 PM, November 24th (Tuesday)]

Going on and on and picking apart every little detail continuously is just exhausting.

So big picture - what concrete tangible things has she actually done to take accountability? To help facilitate your healing? To fix what she broke? To respect the validity of your feelings? Cus from what you have said on the many pages here, she really hasn't done shit on any of that - she's given you these tiny crumbs and expects you to make a cake out of them.

The ride ends when you say 'when'.

Over 1 year membership and over 500 posts ! With the greatest respect isn't it time to stop dithering and make a decision and follow it through ?????! Good luck

I'm working through it in my time. Yes I'm more prolific than many on here. Sometimes I think my wife is right. She's not as bad as others. If she had just fucked her AP I would have 1 or 0 posts here and would have kicked her to the curb. We all have different levels of tolerance for betrayal and the work to recover from it.

I don't really know anything about your story or your recovery. I hope you get what you need from these forums.

I get a lot of good advice here that I appreciate.

Have you asked why it is more important making some jerkoff, who she doesn’t even know, more comfortable than her husband?

Obviously, I don’t know her or you, but the way you describe her actions post dday she seems like the most assertive doormat I’ve ever heard of. Most people pleasers have a probably saying know and establishing boundaries. She seems like she is very good at telling you to go pound salt when she feels you are encroaching on hers.

That's almost exactly the question that led me to my handing her the divorce letter. "Why is this so damn important? Why are you doing something that clearly hurts me and hurts my trust in you? What's your goal in being friends with the AP's friend and how the hell are you going to maintain anything that looks like a boundary if you get in AP's social circle?"

"If you don't trust me just say so and give up."

*Divorce Letter*

Going on and on and picking apart every little detail continuously is just exhausting.

So big picture - what concrete tangible things has she actually done to take accountability? To help facilitate your healing? To fix what she broke? To respect the validity of your feelings? Cus from what you have said on the many pages here, she really hasn't done shit on any of that - she's given you these tiny crumbs and expects you to make a cake out of them.

The ride ends when you say 'when'.

Crumbs is correct.

It most certainly does.

I don't think your WW is a "bad" person per se @This0Is0Fine, I have no doubt she has been oftentimes kind, giving, etc. I see what you are saying about being 'too' selfless with the people in her life, and frankly that is a fault too. She cannot be getting wrapped up in other people's problems, she has a family she needs to be thinking of instead.

So she is now all about preserving her identity. But is her ideas really the way to go about it? And what she has in mind has really made YOU and your needs the enemy here. Quitting her job? Not taking on new male friends? Perfectly justified things to be asking for after her infidelity. But doing this and other things goes against her whole story right now. Her NOT doing these things though, is what is putting herself, you, and your marriage in danger.

@siracha summed up things very well--instead of sticking to what should be a non-negotiable position, you keep on getting bogged down in her feelings. You are *still* doing this it seems. All this talking, all this counseling, all these books to read and what has changed really. Up until recently you kept caving in. And this is what is keeping *both* of you stuck.

I am not at all surprised to hear that you and she have had communication problems, in fairness to your wife I don't think you did a good job at all conveying the urgency of the situation over the past year.

And really, as @EllieKMAS as said, what has she done to help you heal from the affair and safeguard the marriage? You are really the one who has been enabling this you know. Are you still enabling this?

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 12:49 PM, November 25th (Wednesday)]

I don't think your WW is a "bad" person per se @This0Is0Fine, I have no doubt she has been oftentimes kind, giving, etc. I see what you are saying about being 'too' selfless with the people in her life, and frankly that is a fault too. She cannot be getting wrapped up in other people's problems, she has a family she needs to be thinking of instead.

This isn’t too far off the mark for how I would describe my WW too. People who know her will be shocked when they learn she was unfaithful. They’d be even more shocked to learn about how she treated me. In any case look where this great wife has gotten me — an unfaithful and in many cases cruel woman I now find myself in limbo with and ready to divorce.

in fairness to your wife I don't think you did a good job at all conveying the urgency of the situation over the past year.

Though this is not his job and not his burden. She’s smart enough. If she can’t figure it out, oh well. Not his problem.

[This message edited by Thumos at 1:27 PM, November 25th (Wednesday)]

Hope you were able to have a good Thanksgiving This0is0Fine (assuming you’re in the USA).

TIF, I haven't read every single post on this thread so apologies if I say something that's already been said or isn't accurate anymore.

The answer is: you can and will stay in a Marriage without R until you've had enough. You haven't had enough yet.

Like you said about the baseball with 5 strikes thing but I think you will keep increasing the amount of strikes untill you've hit rock bottom.

You're not there yet. You're still in the 5th panel of the dog comic.

Thanksgiving was pretty good. WW gave thanks for me when we went around the table giving, which is a nice gesture. I know it's just words. That said, she came up with the idea of writing goals and needs. She schedules the MC that she knew was going to take my side and blow up her false sense of reality.

Since then we basically had two big fights about my what I wrote on the "needs" list. One ending where she said, "well that's not so much". The other we had later and she made it like it was impossible and the end of the world. She didn't exactly agree to divorce at the time. Maybe she was hoping I would bail her out as she slow walked toward it, but if she isn't capable of meeting the needs, then we are done. We rehashed basically everything that happened in the last two years. Somewhere in the fight I told her "Cause and effect are anathema to you." She kept over broadening and generalizing.

On Breaking NC

WW: "I just wanted to talk to a coworker"

TIF: "You have a shitload of coworkers, don't talk to your affair partner"

On hanging out with AP's friend:

WW: "I just want you to trust me when I'm out with a friend."

TIF: "I do trust you when you go out with a friend. I don't trust you when you drive toward your affair partner and hang out with his close friend. Get it? It's dead simple. It's not about you not having friends or not hanging out with your coworkers. It's about not talking to your affair partner or getting caught in his social circle. It's very specific. It's not paranoid. It's not controlling. It's reasonable healthy boundaries in the wake of your affair."

On her actions since breaking NC:

TIF: "Maybe I didn't make it clear enough when I said we aren't reconciled and I need you in your words and actions to make me not feel like an idiot for staying. The reason I wrapped all my disappointment up together is because I thought you understood that message, and that this was your 100% trying to reconcile and show I'm not an idiot effort. It just hasn't been great. Maybe you thought things were good, but they weren't."

WW: "I thought we had resolved that a long time ago. I wasn't thinking about that when I went for beers with AP's friend. I wasn't thinking about that for your birthday."

TIF: "That's sort of the problem, and I don't know how much is on you for not thinking about it and how much is on me for not constantly telling you I feel like shit."

WW: "Well when you tell me you feel like shit all the time it doesn't really make me feel good either."

TIF: "I know that and that's why I kept it in and that's why I tried to have positive interactions with you. I'm not going to hide my negative emotions anymore. It's not that I don't care about you, it's that if I don't, you will once again go back to thinking everything is fine."

Toward the end:

WW: "I don't want to keep fighting and trying. I want things to be easy again."

TIF: "You don't have to. We don't have to fight, you can be free as a bird and not worry about me ever again. We'll both be alright even if it's not what we want."

WW: "I don't want to fight right now."

TIF: "OK, we don't have to. Take a break. We aren't going to solve things right now anyway. But if you want the marriage to work, you have to do work."

She had not previously ever offered a hall pass as a way to "fix" things. She did during this fight, which I told her was a monumental flaw in her reasoning (especially because earlier she was saying two wrongs don't make a right when I explained my actions over the last year to her). I want committed monogamy. If she wants that too that shouldn't even be close to on the table. She said she wanted to somehow level the playing field. I told her the playing field is level and that she cheated. She took the penalty, and she has to do the time in the sin bin.

After the second fight some time later she offered to be a SAHM. I flatly rejected this offer. I told her it's great for her to find a new job, but I sure as shit wasn't going to be the reason she became a SAHM with an MBA.

Movement toward D continues.

WW: "I don't want to keep fighting and trying. I want things to be easy again."

It's a complete impasse. She can't even acknowledge your feelings are valid. She seems very irritated that you are not on her timetable and cannot bend to her will. Every statement of hers that you shared is about the effect on her and does not even acknowledge that you are an individual capable of acting/feeling separate than what she does/desires. I want this.., I want that.., I wasn't thinking..., How you do you think I feel? That is demonstrative of how she thinks about this situation.

[This message edited by KingRat at 12:54 PM, November 30th (Monday)]

Does she ever say things like “I’m so sorry that the poor choices and awful actions I made brought us to this point” or “I can only imagine the pain I caused you when you found out that I had been unfaithful” or “I’m so sad that you are hurting and it’s because of me” or “I want to discuss things I can be doing that will make you feel safe again and help you heal, and then I want to do them” or “I want to rid our lives of the AP forever and that includes everyone connected to him and my job at which he remains in our daily lives”.

That’s what a loving remorseful WS says and does. If it were me, I would tell her that I am hearing 90% of excuses and deflection and 10% of rebuilding by her and that until those percentages are reversed I will be taking a path out of the relationship she destroyed and fails now miserably to rebuild.

I am glad you are now taking the right steps to be clear about what you need and until you see it completed by her, moving on without her.

Does she ever say things like “I’m so sorry that the poor choices and awful actions I made brought us to this point” or “I can only imagine the pain I caused you when you found out that I had been unfaithful” or “I’m so sad that you are hurting and it’s because of me” or “I want to discuss things I can be doing that will make you feel safe again and help you heal, and then I want to do them”.

Those things almost verbatim. It's an issue with what gets filtered into posts here. Obviously I remember the stuff that bothered me more than the stuff that was reassuring.

“I want to rid our lives of the AP forever and that includes everyone connected to him and my job at which he remains in our daily lives”.

That one no.

I think you need more of this:

Toward the end:

WW: "I don't want to keep fighting and trying. I want things to be easy again."

TIF: "You don't have to. We don't have to fight, you can be free as a bird and not worry about me ever again. We'll both be alright even if it's not what we want."

WW: "I don't want to fight right now."

TIF: "OK, we don't have to. Take a break. We aren't going to solve things right now anyway. But if you want the marriage to work, you have to do work."

And less of everything that precedes it. No more JADE'ing (Justifying, Arguing, Defending, Explaining). When she says:

WW: "I just wanted to talk to a coworker"

You say: "It doesn't matter. We agreed upon NC and you broke it."

When she says:

On hanging out with AP's friend:

WW: "I just want you to trust me when I'm out with a friend."

You say: "I'm telling you here and now that any contact with OM's friends is hurtful to me and will be treated similarly to broken NC."

When she says:

WW: "I thought we had resolved that a long time ago. I wasn't thinking about that when I went for beers with AP's friend. I wasn't thinking about that for your birthday."

You say: "It doesn't matter if you didn't think of it. I did. It hurt me and has lessened my trust in you even further. It makes me feel second to OM's friend. It's not resolved for me and won't be until OM and anyone connected to him is out of our lives for good."

I hope you realize that her responses were HIGHLY manipulative. She's not a child. She understands the difference in context between talking to any coworker vs OM after agreed upon NC. She understands the difference between any friend vs OM's friend. She's choosing to turn this around and imply that you are controlling for asking her to keep NC in all forms because she knows that it makes you defensive and start JADE'ing instead of keeping your focus exactly where it belongs - on your boundaries and her accountability. And if/when she decides to ignore those agreements, she can go back and claim that she didn't/doesn't understand you or what you're asking of her. Even though she's some how made it this far in life understanding cause and effect just fine. Don't let her fool you into thinking otherwise. People who truly don't understand cause and effect struggle with school, work, and general adulting.

Those things almost verbatim. It's an issue with what gets filtered into posts here. Obviously I remember the stuff that bothered me more than the stuff that was reassuring.

To me, that makes it worse because her ACTIONS prove that she's either lying when she says those things or her desire to "talk to a coworker" or "be out with a friend" are THAT much more important than you pain. People who get it don't argue semantics and push back against your boundaries.

Pretty much everything she said in that dialogue as you reported it reeks of self entitlement and someone who is certainly smart enough to get it but doesn’t want to.

I thought I thought we had resolved that a long time ago.

This kicked off about a year ago right? And that’s a “long time ago” for her. See what you’re dealing with here? That’s not even the perspective of a mature adult.

Leaving her job as BR points out will not resolve that or her propensity for testing boundaries with other men she wants to have sex with, including the AP. But her refusal to do so is emblematic of an unremorseful spouse who doesn’t want to do any of the work required for authentic reconciliation.

[This message edited by Thumos at 8:30 AM, December 1st (Tuesday)]

This kicked off about a year ago right? And that’s a “long time ago” for her. See what you’re dealing with here? That’s not even the perspective of a mature adult.

No it's much worse than that. This was in specific reference to breaking NC at the end of July.

So when she says reassuring things what actions does she agree to do in order to rebuild and facilitate healing?

“I want to rid our lives of the AP forever and that includes everyone connected to him and my job at which he remains in our daily lives”.

That one no.

Unfortunately that’s the action that counts the most.

What contact has she had with the AP the last six months or so, even if just virtually?

So when she says reassuring things what actions does she agree to do in order to rebuild and facilitate healing?

So much of what I'm asking for isn't positive action to facilitate healing, though she does give affection, apologize earnestly (on occasion), and support me when I'm down. A lot of it is to stop doing shit that hurts me. She can't do that actively, it takes time and she has to choose not to do the bad things (initially called suboptimal in this thread).

Specifically since giving her the divorce letter she:

-Asked for a clear written list of my needs and wants (yes I put new job as a want not a need but I pointed out that the personal contact boundary is a HARD boundary and a need)

-Wrote and agreed to boundaries related to AP and APs friends (new written NC agreement)

-Scheduled a new MC session, she was avoiding talking about breaking NC in front of the counselor

These are positive steps that have occurred but they have also been punctuated by her fighting against what I have written for my needs and wants. Fighting about what came out of he MC session. More grace would be nice.

What contact has she had with the AP the last six months or so, even if just virtually?

They had to work on a rollout of a new software product and were in frequent communication at that time. The vast majority was work related, but obviously not all of it, or she wouldn't have broken NC in July.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 12:04 PM, December 1st (Tuesday)]

No it's much worse than that. This was in specific reference to breaking NC at the end of July.

Wow, that is bad TIF. She seems to think like a child. "A long time ago" is less than six months ago? Oy ve.

They had to work on a rollout of a new software product and were in frequent communication at that time. The vast majority was work related, but obviously not all of it, or she wouldn't have broken NC in July.

That's even worse than I thought. I think you can assume the EA essentially continued. If you're confident of no PA, ok. But if they've been in close proximity and contact like that all the time, well, you know.

[This message edited by Thumos at 12:01 PM, December 1st (Tuesday)]

She had not previously ever offered a hall pass as a way to "fix" things. She did during this fight, which I told her was a monumental flaw in her reasoning (especially because earlier she was saying two wrongs don't make a right when I explained my actions over the last year to her). I want committed monogamy. If she wants that too that shouldn't even be close to on the table. She said she wanted to somehow level the playing field.

This is very troubling. I can't think of many reasons she'd offer this other than: 1) She is still quite wayward and would like to go have sex with other men. 2) She wants to compromise you so you'll be a hypocrite for demanding a basic standard of monogamy from her.

Or both. In other words, a tacit attempt to negotiate an open marriage. As you know, open marriages tend to be one-sided arrangements privileging women more often than not.

Most of her gambits thus far have been self-centered moves. This one is no different.

[This message edited by Thumos at 1:28 PM, December 1st (Tuesday)]