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I don't totally believe her motivations, but I don't think the *intent* was to do anything sexual or romantic with him. Just say, "I'm glad you and your wife are getting along again. I think I've made a lot of progress in my marriage and I'm glad everything worked out."

I mean, TIF.

You think the OM's motivations for reaching out to her weren't sexual or romantic?

ETA: He did this after you had already essentially exposed and confronted. You think his motives were just to be nice and everyone getting along?

You think it was all just an innocent coffee to catch up?

You think that's really how she saw it even if that's what she is telling you?

Breaking NC is reigniting the affair. Full stop.

Breaking NC is restarting the reconciliation clock. Full stop.

Breaking NC is wayward. Full stop.

It's privileging once again her own selfish desires over your pain, over your loyalty, over your young family.

Why did she do it in secret? Why didn't she tell me?

Because her motives were anything but pure, because she wanted to do it, because she thought you wouldn't find out.

[This message edited by Thumos at 1:04 PM, December 11th (Friday)]

One side effect that is a possible problem in your WW finding or agreeing to actually switch jobs is that she might actually believe that if she does not change her actions and get "all in" that she will be giving up a job she likes, has been promoted at, and be leaping into the unknown with no guarantee that you will not pull the plug because of her behavior and non compliance if it continues. Right now she is NOT committed by her actions to going totally NC with this OM and therefore switching jobs incurs a big risk for her.

Your thought process that she should find a job she will love and with making equal or more compensation is a pipedream. She is not going to know if she will like or love the job before she is in it for some time, and there is nothing in her behavior or attitude that suggests that she is going to be anything but resentful at you forcing her to do this.

I'm not going to defend my previous position that she could simply go underground even if she switched jobs.

You don't need to defend this position but you sure as hell need to figure out what steps you might take to find out if she does take it underground.

I am not really tracking her to the degree that I would find out if she was underground. I wouldn't do anything until I found out again by accident or because something seemed "off".

You criticize yourself frequently for CAVING on a whole bunch of stuff but one thing you caved on that you should be resurrecting is the polygraph. She agreed to do this and did not and you let it go. How did that work out for you????

Totally fine in terms of what I needed from the polygraph. I haven't been trickle truthed, and everything lines up for me to believe my WWs story is complete.

Why in your list of MUST haves is her willingness to at some unannounced time not in your demands???? You keep talking about trust rebuilding but how do she do that when she is being dragged by her hair out of the job and still exhibits nothing close to a real understanding of what she has done AFTER d Day to ruin your trust.

Why does she get to set it up. ?? You are totally capable of doing that, so your comment that you would need 24/7 monitoring is not valid. two months after she switches jobs one question of the four will give you an answer about NC very clearly that you can verify. You have totally let her off the hook on this one.

The purpose of letting her set it up in the first place was for her to show her commitment to the process. She clearly wasn't. I retrieved sufficient information another way. I am satisfied. If I have to hook her up to a machine to confirm the answer to a basic question I'd rather be divorced. Full stop. I'm not going to do that. I don't have it in me to do it. It wouldn't make me feel good or satisfied in any way.

How can you possibly know this?

Hell Fire's comment. You have no way in place to know anything other than what she tells you.

That's *essentially* correct. I still have transparency with her "above ground" email accounts and phone access on demand. But because it's impossible to fully track work contact (their IM system doesn't keep logs) she could certainly just be lying to me. I accept that is one of two possibilities right now.

AP initially reached out to my WW.

And your wife was totally receptive. But this is another area having nothing to do with a divorce decision that you have totally CAVED on. This prick OM has gone out of his way to contribute to the destruction of your marriage with no consequences and you are blaming it on his wife rug sweeping.

I'm not blaming any action by AP or my WW on his wife's rugsweeping. I'm blaming my inability to communicate with her on her rugsweeping. I think this is a simple misunderstanding of what I wrote.

I believe you stated that if you exposed this affair to their work and what went on that they would both be terminated. How about calling this mother fucker up and telling him that if he does not back off totally on talking to your wife that you are going to blow up his fucking world at work. How about sending by courier a letter to his wife that you are going to do that if he does not stop pursuing your wife.???

While their relationship was inappropriate, there is not a superior/inferior relationship and it may not ACTUALLY constitute enough of a problem to merit HR action. Essentially, there is not enough evidence to back up any such claim if it is denied. There wasn't a waste of company resources. They didn't have sex. It would just start rumors and make people uncomfortable. Hard to say anyone would be fired.

Of course that will piss off your wife totally. You afraid of that?? Of course she is the one who was receptive to it but there is no indication that if she switches jobs he still will not pursue her. You had a modified NC agreement in place that she broke repeatedly that could not have occurred if he had backed off, yet you still have referred to him as a good guy for not fucking her when he had the chance. Time to revise that thinking totally. If his employment could be threatened by full disclosure it doesn't cost you a dime to not sit there and let his have any impact on your life with no pushback. You know who he is and you know how to make sure his wife knows everything no matter what her reaction is.

See above on whether or not anyone would actually get fired. I'd prefer divorce to such actions. That is essentially trying to control the actions of others. Totally fruitless.

And lastly, you obviously when you refer to that they did not have sex only regard PIV as not having sex unless you actually believe kissing make out sessions (which is sex ), groping ( which is sex) do not qualify. And yes you are correct, I would guess most of the people here find it incredible that what she has done for a year after D Day would be very likely for someone who only her his tongue in her mouth a few times.

No times. There was no deep kissing/making out. Hence the one bit of semi-trickle truth I got. "He rejected my kiss" -> "I kissed him on the lips and he pushed me away."

Two possibilities continue to exist. She is totally lying, underground and did way more than she told me.

She has been honest, her generalized anxiety disorder, FOO, and ability to minimize the pain and damage leads to an internal story where her husband is constantly badgering her over a two month emotional affair that she thought was a solved problem.

Reconciliation has many formats. Your problem is not wanting to do that. It is refusing to add to your list of demands any method of verification.

Quite honestly, if you look back at her actions and behavior you actually caught a huge break with this horrible pandemic. Given her attitude for the past year, where do you think you would be if she had been travelling with him which was supposed to happen in May and seeing him in person daily given the disrespect she showed you talking to him at will with you in the next room.

Divorced, almost certainly. I still may end up that way. That's fine.

They don't work in the same physical office. We've covered that before. While his whole division did not get fired, they closed the physical office permanently and kept some people on as remote workers. He is not scheduled to return to any physical office in the future. There may eventually be work events where they would be together. The real answer is that I will likely be divorced before she returns to a physical location where her AP might be.

Well, hopefully the pandemic will subside shortly with vaccines becoming available and unless she stumbles into a new job by luck that she "loves" with more money you have more to deal with with no plan other than taking her word for everything. And quite franking, given her resistance to NC its quite possible her need to talk to him or meet up with him will be more intense. And of course she has an entire cast of girlfriends who more than likely would help her facilitate that.

Interestingly they seem to get it more and advised her against breaking NC. Of course they also didn't have the good grace to tell me that she was even contemplating it. So I'm still surrounded in a pit of vipers. I get it. Not a great place to be.

So just my opinion your biggest danger is a false R because she is being dragged unwillingly into anything positive for your true reconciliation.

And Lord help you if she HATES the new job if she finds one.

Yes. Fully agree. False R is the biggest danger. It's a very real and possible danger. I'm not discounting it. I'm not even in R right now. I'm accepting R as a possibility with the current roadmap. Still in limbo to be perfectly fair, just a more certain sort of limbo than the day-to-day bullshit I was putting up with.

I mean, TIF.

You think the OM's motivation for reaching out to her weren't sexual or romantic?

You think it was all just an innocent coffee to catch up?

You think that's really how she saw it even if that's what she is telling you?

I actually don't think it was *intended to be* sexual or romantic. I do think that is was still emotional and about the initial connection that was meaningful and valid and the friendship they had BEFORE they crossed the line into an EA. They wanted to just check on each other and see if things were "OK". Sorry if that's 100% unbelievable to you. I think that's what it was about. That said, the chances of it, once again getting sexual/romantic then crossing the line again are pretty high.

Breaking NC is reigniting the affair. Full stop.

Breaking NC is restarting the reconciliation clock. Full stop.

Breaking NC is wayward. Full stop.

It's privileging once again her own selfish desires over your pain, over your loyalty, over your young family.

Why did she do it in secret? Why didn't she tell me?

Because her motives were anything but pure, because she wanted to do it, because she thought you wouldn't find out.

I agree with everything here.

When I first talked to her about it, I said something along the lines of, "The problem is that this is at best, extremely selfish, unbelievably careless, and hurtful to me. That's your best possible story to me. You lied to me because you thought you would get away with it, take away my agency, and everyone would walk away happy. Your very best outcome is that you successfully deceived me. You have to get it through your brain that successfully deceiving me is NOT a good outcome. It's bad. It's worse than telling the truth no matter how much the truth hurts. Get it through your brain. I want the truth."

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 1:26 PM, December 11th (Friday)]

When I first talked to her about it, I said something along the lines of, "The problem is that this is at best, extremely selfish, unbelievably careless, and hurtful to me. That's your best possible story to me. You lied to me because you thought you would get away with it, take away my agency, and everyone would walk away happy. Your very best outcome is that you successfully deceived me. You have to get it through your brain that successfully deceiving me is NOT a good outcome. It's bad. It's worse than telling the truth no matter how much the truth hurts. Get it through your brain. I want the truth."

Did she acknowledge that without justifying her actions?

Did she acknowledge that without justifying her actions?

Sure at the time. We've gone full circle here. By the end of this confrontation I said, "You are not forgiven, and we are not reconciled". I then entered the state I was in at the beginning of this thread.

We did it!

Turns out such a state can last approximately 3 months in my case. This then morphs into asking for divorce, and maybe just now entering R one year later. Fuck infidelity.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 2:09 PM, December 11th (Friday)]

This0Is0Fine, I do find myself wondering sometimes...does your wife genuinely understand what you need from her? Does she truly get why you need her to go NC with AP, find a new job, not take on new male friendships, not be friends with any of AP's friends.... How willing does she seem, *to you*, to do the work?

And has she made any breakthroughs in her thinking in the past couple of months.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 3:55 PM, December 11th (Friday)]

It's hard to say she had a "major breakthrough" in her thinking. But after the week long separation, she had a breakthrough in understanding that she had caused me trauma and needed to treat this as trauma. She wanted the clarity of the needs, wants, and goals. I'm seeing reasonable and concrete progress. Not "major breakthroughs". We'll see.

two month emotional affair that she thought was a solved problem.

For the record, 2-3 months seems to be the most common length for most affairs. so if she’s able to minimize that as “minor” compared to other adultery you might disabuse her of that notion. She’s right smack in the midst of common cheaters.

They wanted to just check on each other and see if things were "OK". Sorry if that's 100% unbelievable to you

It’s not unbelievable as a line they were feeding themselves and each other to justify it, but it is unbelievable as a justification and let’s face it is probably a cover for them wanting to spend time face to face. And can almost guarantee had it happened the affair would have been rekindled. So he reached out to her knowing that and she reciprocated knowing that.

“Your very best outcome is that you successfully deceived me. You have to get it through your brain that successfully deceiving me is NOT a good outcome. It's bad. It's worse than telling the truth no matter how much the truth hurts. Get it through your brain. I want the truth.”

This is very good. I’m stealing this.

[This message edited by Thumos at 4:10 PM, December 11th (Friday)]

Other than sending his wife a message, have you had any communication with her at all?

Other than sending his wife a message, have you had any communication with her at all?

I have made other contact attempts. All of them have been rebuffed.

EDIT: Rebuffed may be the wrong word. She hasn't responded in any way to any of my further attempts at contact.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 4:49 PM, December 11th (Friday)]

I have made other contact attempts. All of them have been rebuffed.

EDIT: Rebuffed may be the wrong word. She hasn't responded in any way to any of my further attempts at contact.

well I got this too from OBS, unfortunately. At least you tried.

The weekend was nice and normal. We had a small holiday get together (within our small group of people we associate with regularly, yes that includes the friend that was in an LTA).

Watched a movie with the kids and made popcorn. Got some exercise in. Got intimate twice with my WW. Sat and binged some shows. Just a lazy, relaxing sort of weekend. I thought it might be worthwhile to say things seem good.

I recognize that feeling this way is part of my overall struggle. Things can be so good. I just hope they stay on track and continue to improve.

Is the friend the one you exposed to her BH? Is she doing the right things to rebuild her marriage? I’m trying to understand who she is a good friend of your marriage enough to still have her in your lives.

Is the friend the one you exposed to her BH? Is she doing the right things to rebuild her marriage? I’m trying to understand who she is a good friend of your marriage enough to still have her in your lives.

Yes. That's the one. She also was the one that took me on a hike when I was down. See earlier in this thread, prior to me handing over the divorce letter.

I would say that outwardly and from my discussions with her she IS doing the right things. But she carried on a three year long A, so she is essentially an expert liar and deceiver.

Which brings us to the very fun part of the discussion today.

Yesterday, my WW was talking to this friend saying she was, "Ripping off the bandaid slowly". Which to me sounds like there was some TT between WF and her BH.

I said, "All I need to know is that she is not having an affair and that if she was you wouldn't condone it."

This turned into a massive fight, when all I needed to here was, "I'm helping her get through the long hard process of healing, and there is no affair going on."

Instead, "That's none of your business." On and and on. My WW once again reestablished that her friends are a higher rank in loyalty than me. She completely blew through my needs for honesty and transparency. She blew through my need for reasonable reassurance without making me feel bad about asking. At this point I'm just here to materially support her through her grandmother's passing.

The fight was truly unfuckingbelievable (maybe not to you guys ). C'est la vie.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 11:50 AM, December 15th (Tuesday)]

Let me get this straight: Your wife's friend, whose affair you disclosed to her husband, not only seems to be not mad at you, but still likes you enough to hang out with you one-on-one?

That in and of itself seems bizarre. Unless she is picking your brain as a resource to help get her BH through the aftermath of her affair. But then, that can hardly be true either, as she has decided to trickle-truth her BH.

Anyways, what really concerns me about the fight you had with your WW is that, didn't you and she already have a similar argument before? If I recall correctly, several months ago you had overheard your WW and your wife's friend talking about wife's friend's affair, and you were the one who disclosed it to BH. You brought all this up to your MC who took your side in this, and if I remembering things right, even your wife ended up agreeing with you both.

It's hard to believe that your WW has truly turned a corner and is heading in the right direction, if you and she keep going around in circles and repeating the same arguments over and over again. At any event though, I would hope that one of your demands is that your WW puts you before her friends, and does NOT keep their infidelities as a secret from you.

This is not the only way you and WW are going around in circles. IIRC way back, even before the COVID lockdowns of the spring, your WW seemed to get the importance of her getting a new job and seemed to be motivated to do so. We all know what ended up happening there...

This0Is0Fine, what is your endgame here? People have been hard on you in this thread, but you still seem to be accepting these false starts--such as this past one--just as you have been doing all year. How much longer will you be allowing this?

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 1:05 PM, December 15th (Tuesday)]

She completely blew through my needs for honesty and transparency. She blew through my need for reasonable reassurance without making me feel bad about asking. At this point I'm just here to materially support her through her grandmother's passing.

Can you do a serious 180 and not have sex with her too for 30 days? You are getting your emotions confused w/ your physical hormonal reactions. When she clearly has no intention of doing the right thing, healing herself and your M from her side of it. She will continue to do the bare minimum "phoning it in" until you either accept that's enough or you don't.

Brother she isn't doing the real work. Time together getting along isn't all it takes to rebuild and be truly happy and healthy.

I said, "All I need to know is that she is not having an affair and that if she was you wouldn't condone it."

This turned into a massive fight, when all I needed to here was, "I'm helping her get through the long hard process of healing, and there is no affair going on."

Instead, "That's none of your business." On and and on. My WW once again reestablished that her friends are a higher rank in loyalty than me. She completely blew through my needs for honesty and transparency. She blew through my need for reasonable reassurance without making me feel bad about asking. At this point I'm just here to materially support her through her grandmother's passing.

The fight was truly unfuckingbelievable (maybe not to you guys ). C'est la vie.

This is reminiscent of when I told my WW I needed to see the texts between my WW and her AP, and she said, “that’s private.”

So the feel good chemicals of oxytocin and vasopressin kicked in for you after a weekend of family time and sexual intimacy. Your WW has made some half hearted gestures that feel a little bit trying to negotiate a treaty with the North Koreans from where I sit. But this made you feel like maybe you were on the right track. That old hopium.

Then she shows you — once again — who she really is and what she really thinks. It’s compounded by the fact that your WW Is surrounded by fellow female cheaters who justify each other (please don’t tell me they don’t; they play word games to try to to pretend that isn't what they are doing, but it is exactly what they are doing).

When it comes down to it, this is what you’re faced with. This is who she is. She feels entitled to keep a bubble of “private” information about her affair and her circle of female friends’ proclivities and rationalizations.

I understand the limbo, brother, I get it. I know exactly how hard it is. I still haven’t divorced my WW but I intend to in 2021.

You married this woman for a set of very good reasons. You gave her your heart. You built a family, a life. That’s excruciating to walk away from.

I had an epiphany this morning in my own case that after the sex with our AP in our home (the ultimate betrayal of marital sanctity after I had already soft confronted her with phone records) — and then the trickle truth, hiding and destroying evidence, foot dragging and blameshifting after DDAY — I simply can’t be a good husband to her who is “all in,” and she could be the best spouse on the planet from here on out but that won’t change how I feel.

I’ll always know she’s very likely still lying and still protecting that bubble. So as much as I can be friendly and sexual with her I’ll always be holding myself back from her, triggering around her and feeling twisted in knots about what she did and left open and gaping and unresolved.

Your WW is setting herself up for the same conundrum where she keeps trampling on your heart and I think soon it will be too late. She may realize after that point what she’s losing. I think my WW does, but when you are done you are done.

[This message edited by Thumos at 1:03 PM, December 15th (Tuesday)]

Let me get this straight: Your wife's friend, whose affair you disclosed to her husband, not only seems to be not mad at you, but still likes you enough to hang out with you one-on-one?

That in and of itself seems bizarre. Unless she is picking your brain as a resource to help get her BH through the aftermath of her affair. But then, that can hardly be true either, as she has decided to trickle-truth her BH.

Anyways, what really concerns me about the fight you had with your WW is that, didn't you and she already have a similar argument before? If I recall correctly, several months ago you had overheard your WW and your wife's friend talking about wife's friend's affair, and you were the one who disclosed it to BH. You brought all this up to your MC who took your side in this, and if I remembering things right, even your wife ended up agreeing with you both.

It's hard to believe that your WW has truly turned a corner and is heading in the right direction, if you and she keep going around in circles and repeating the same arguments over and over again. At any event though, I would hope that one of your demands is that your WW puts you before her friends, and does NOT keep their infidelities as a secret from you.

This is not the only way you and WW are going around in circles. IIRC way back just before the COVID lockdowns of the spring, your WW seemed to get the importance of her getting a new job.

This0Is0Fine, what is your endgame here? People have been hard on you in this thread, but you still seem to be accepting these little crumbs of hope just as you have been doing all year. How much longer will you be allowing this?

Yes, she still is willing to hang out with me one-on-one. Her reaction to my disclosure of her A has been completely unexpected, almost from day one. She was cold to me for a while, but we eventually had a big talk where we reconciled and she even thanked me for what I did.

This fight was 100% retread city with the exception that my side of the fight was much different. I had specific needs and demands and extreme clarity that they are not going to be met. My marriage is certainly over. She cut the thread it was hanging by. I'm not entirely sure she is aware of that. I'm not sure if I should tell her now, or until after she gets a chance to see her grandmother and say goodbye. The endgame at this point is an amicable divorce.

Can you do a serious 180 and not have sex with her too for 30 days? You are getting your emotions confused w/ your physical hormonal reactions. When she clearly has no intention of doing the right thing, healing herself and your M from her side of it. She will continue to do the bare minimum "phoning it in" until you either accept that's enough or you don't.

Brother she isn't doing the real work. Time together getting along isn't all it takes to rebuild and be truly happy and healthy.

Yes, I can. I will still be here for material support, as I said.

This is reminiscent of when I told my WW I needed to see the texts between my WW and her AP, and she said, “that’s private.”

So the feel good chemicals of oxytocin and vasopressin kicked in for you after a weekend of family time and sexual intimacy. Your WW has made some half hearted gestures that feel a little bit trying to negotiate a treaty with the North Koreans from where I sit. But this made you feel like maybe you were on the right track. That old hopium.

Then she shows you — once again — who she really is and what she really thinks. When it comes down to it, this is what you’re faced with. I understand the limbo, brother, I get it. I know exactly how hard it is. I still haven’t divorced my WW but I intend to in 2021.

You married this woman for a set of very good reasons. You gave her your heart. You built a family, a life. That’s excruciating to walk away from.

I had an epiphany this morning in my own case that after the sex with our AP in our home (the ultimate betrayal of marital sanctity after I had already soft confronted her with phone records) — and then the trickle truth, hiding and destroying evidence, foot dragging and blameshifting after DDAY — I simply can’t be a husband to her, and she could be the best spouse on the planet from here on out but that won’t change how I feel.

Your WW is setting herself up for the same conundrum where she keeps trampling on your heart and I think soon it will be too late. She may realize after that point what she’s losing. I think my WW does, but when you are done you are done.

I'm finished.

My working definition of emotional intimacy is: the voluntary disclosure of private facts. And chiefly, among other things, reconciling from an EA requires rebuilding/reestablishing emotional intimacy. At minimum, it is her *wanting* to make things that are "none of your business" your business. This isn't a mandatory debriefing of her daily conversations. You are not trying to rob her of autonomy, you are merely requesting that she let you in in order to build back emotional bonds.

I get she has FOO issues that may contribute to some emotional unavailability. But they are just that--a tendency, a base state. She still is responsible for acting like a healthy partner despite it may be somewhat unnatural for her or the dysfunctional that her parents ingrained in her will just continue.

Do you think she truly understands and appreciates that concept?

She doesn't get it at all. She gets none of it. The improvements after the D letter were temporary flailing.

I agree, TiF. I think just about everyone saw that coming a mile away. It's been your WW's pattern of behavior for the past year. It's actually a little surprising that even in her earnest to pretend like she will be on board with what you need, she can't even keep the facade going more than a few days and with you giving her the correct words to say. She doesn't just not get it. She doesn't think she needs to get it as shown by how comfortable she is withholding even the most basic displays of getting it only days after being threatened with D.

If I were you, I'd hold off on telling her until the paper have been filed. If you tell her without a clear cut end in sight, she will do what she always has - love bomb you, make empty promises, and say everything you want to hear until about 5 minutes after you've dropped the D. You say you're done, and I believe it, but will you be able to resist and move forward if she apologizes and re-commits to R for the millionth time tomorrow? Will you be able to resist when things go back to "good" for a few days? Or will you drink the hopium and be shocked and confused again when inevitably she hasn't made any changes?